Maximized Fimbulwinter?

[SinsI]

What would be the full effect if a 15th level Wizard casts Fimbulwinter spell (Frostburn) using metamagic rod of Maximize?

7 feet of snowfall daily, in 15 miles radius for a year sounds extremely scary for just an 8th level spell (that would be a mountain 700+ meters high!)... It's like a Locate City Bomb without requiring any of the cheese that you can use partially and at your discretion...

[AvatarVecna]

What would be the full effect if a 15th level Wizard casts Fimbulwinter spell (Frostburn) using metamagic rod of Maximize?

7 feet of snowfall daily, in 15 miles radius for a year sounds extremely scary for just an 8th level spell (that would be a mountain 700+ meters high!)... It's like a Locate City Bomb without requiring any of the cheese that you can use partially and at your discretion...

It gets worse when you add metamagic cheese. You end up with one that's Maximized, Empowered, and Extended that deal 8 cold damage, 8 negative energy damage, and 1 negative level every round to all creatures in the area. It's generally referred to as the Wightpocalypse.

[SinsI]

It gets worse when you add metamagic cheese. You end up with one that's Maximized, Empowered, and Extended that deal 8 cold damage, 8 negative energy damage, and 1 negative level every round to all creatures in the area. It's generally referred to as the Wightpocalypse.

Maximized Fimbulwinter is so scary to me exactly because it doesn't require any cheese at all - just the spell and a routine magic tool, and the only rules stretch is whether or not table lookup check should be affected by the Maximize, and the cheesy reading is actually reinforced by them applying a modifier to that roll.
The only other metamagic I would actually consider adding is +1 Extend spell to get twice the duration for my "heavy" investment of 100 XP (and there's no real need for metamagic reducer).

[ExLibrisMortis]

It gets worse when you add metamagic cheese. You end up with one that's Maximized, Empowered, and Extended that deal 8 cold damage, 8 negative energy damage, and 1 negative level every round to all creatures in the area. It's generally referred to as the Wightpocalypse.
I thought that the negative energy damage only happened once, when you cast it? It's still more than enough to kill most commoners, who then become wights and start the apocalypse regardless, but it's not so bad if you enter after the casting.

[AvatarVecna]

I thought that the negative energy damage only happened once, when you cast it? It's still more than enough to kill most commoners, who then become wights and start the apocalypse regardless, but it's not so bad if you enter after the casting.

TBH, it-s something I'm not entirely sure about. Most blasting spells don't have a duration any longer than instantaneous, but the few that exist (such as Cloudkill) do their damage every turn. It's how I would rule it to work in a game, and it's how I understand the combo to work intil someone can point to the rule that says otherwise.

[lsfreak]

Wording of Fel Draining is ambiguous. I argue that the more straightforward reading is that it deals a negative level every time it deals damage, but you can also read that it only checks that damage is dealt, deals one negative level, and that's it.

[Story]

I don't think you can maximize the table roll since it isn't a numeric effect. You can still maximize the rolls for duration and amount of snowfall though.

So if cast during Winter in a cold climate, you're looking at a median of 12 inches snow/day for 48 weeks.

P.S. Might as well slap an Extend on there if you've got 9th level spells.

[Venger]

fimbulwinter in general is a hilarious spell. I have no idea what they intended you to do with it.

[Extra Anchovies]

fimbulwinter in general is a hilarious spell. I have no idea what they intended you to do with it.

Frostburn has quite a few of those spells that are really only meant for use by villains. Ice Assassin is another really good example.

[JDL]

Of course every cleric, wizard and miscellaneous spellcaster in the area of effect is gonna be hitting the spell with a dispel asap, so extending it isn't gonna make a huge amount of difference. Even if you're a 20th level spellcaster, any 11th level Cleric only needs to hit it with a Greater Dispel Magic and roll a 20. Higher levels get an even better chance to dispel it.

[Socratov]

Of course every cleric, wizard and miscellaneous spellcaster in the area of effect is gonna be hitting the spell with a dispel asap, so extending it isn't gonna make a huge amount of difference. Even if you're a 20th level spellcaster, any 11th level Cleric only needs to hit it with a Greater Dispel Magic and roll a 20. Higher levels get an even better chance to dispel it.

Thing is, by then most of the commonners will have died and turned to wights.

[Orderic]

I don't think protecting it from Dispel should be too difficult. We could either use some tricks to boost the CL so high that no non-epic NSC could dispel it. Of course, this makes it still vulnerable to Disjunction...

Or we use Dweomerkeeper to turn it into a supernatural ability. Let them try to dispel that. Now only an Antimagic Field can protect you from the eternal winter.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Of course every cleric, wizard and miscellaneous spellcaster in the area of effect is gonna be hitting the spell with a dispel asap, so extending it isn't gonna make a huge amount of difference. Even if you're a 20th level spellcaster, any 11th level Cleric only needs to hit it with a Greater Dispel Magic and roll a 20. Higher levels get an even better chance to dispel it.

In most campaign settings high-level casters are rare, and raising CL is trivial when you're capable of casting 8th level spells.
Chances are they'll have to make a DC 40 or higher check easily (that's a level 20 caster with Ankh of Ascension, Bead of Karma and Orange Ioun Stone, which is pretty standard for divine casters).
You can raise that even higher with (Greater) Consumptive Field, Reserves of Strength, Elder Giant Magic, Divine Spell Power, a Ring of Enduring Arcana and a whole lot of other things.

That can easily get you beyond even the most powerful dispels abilities, which leaves only Disjunction as a possible solution.
You can get around that with Dweomerkeeper as was mentioned, or you can use DWK cheese to get Tenacious Magic pre-epic.

[Chronos]

Go ahead and boost your caster level to a thousand, if you want. The truenamer with a pet bunny won't care.

[Seerow]

Go ahead and boost your caster level to a thousand, if you want. The truenamer with a pet bunny won't care.

I don't get the reference, but I think I can be pretty confident in saying that most campaigns prefer to pretend like the truenamer doesn't exist. If a truenamer with a very specific build and/or pet is required to dispel the effect, it may as well be undispellable.

[Tulya]

Spell Rebirth used in its reversed form automatically dispels the highest caster level effect that affects a creature, so as long as you can make the truespeak check. I'm assuming the 'pet bunny' is simply to have a target with the minimum challenge rating for determining the check DC.

[DigoDragon]

If there is one thing this thread has inspired in my mind, it's an idea for a cold version of Dark Sun where the world is a frozen wasteland full of undead monsters and windigos. ...I'd totally join such a campaign. :smallbiggrin:

[Andezzar]

So basically the campaign setting from Frostburn?

[lsfreak]

Of course every cleric, wizard and miscellaneous spellcaster in the area of effect is gonna be hitting the spell with a dispel asap, so extending it isn't gonna make a huge amount of difference. Even if you're a 20th level spellcaster, any 11th level Cleric only needs to hit it with a Greater Dispel Magic and roll a 20. Higher levels get an even better chance to dispel it.

I wouldn't be so sure:
"For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area."

You can only dispel the whole thing if you can find the place (+/-20 feet) of where it was cast from. Which will probably be possible with a few days and contact other plane, but it's not nearly as simple as just casting dispel.

[DigoDragon]

So basically the campaign setting from Frostburn?

I dunno. I've never read that book so my basis for comparison is just Dark Sun, which I have experience with. But if it has the setting I described then sure.

[ComaVision]

Warblade with Iron Heart Surge

[Andezzar]

I dunno. I've never read that book so my basis for comparison is just Dark Sun, which I have experience with. But if it has the setting I described then sure.Frostburn has less emphasis on undead, it's just freaking cold. But unless the PCs are also undead there must still be some living creatures in the proposed setting, or the PCs are "outsiders".

[Twurps]

Wording of Fel Draining is ambiguous. I argue that the more straightforward reading is that it deals a negative level every time it deals damage, but you can also read that it only checks that damage is dealt, deals one negative level, and that's it.

Actually not even the most ambiguous part of this trick.
Fel Drain requires that the base spells deals damage, which fimbulwinter doesn't. I can't remember the metamagic effect that is usually used to get past this part, but I do know that I I've seen quite a few that wouldn't actually work by RAW.

[AvatarVecna]

Actually not even the most ambiguous part of this trick.
Fel Drain requires that the base spells deals damage, which fimbulwinter doesn't. I can't remember the metamagic effect that is usually used to get past this part, but I do know that I I've seen quite a few that wouldn't actually work by RAW.

Flash Frost Spell can only target a spell with the Cold descriptor that affect an area. The spell now deals 2 damage per level of the spell to all targets within the area. Fimbulwinter qualifies, and can thus be made to deal damage. Fell Drain deals a negative level to those damaged by the spell.

Of course, even if this damage and the negative level only occur once per target, right at the beginning of the spell, the area is measured in miles and probably gave at least one town filled with commoners a negative level (not to mention all the friendly woodland creatures) and now they're all wights, so even then it still works out alright.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Fimbulwinter has the [cold] descriptor, which allows you to make it into a flash frost spell. A flash frost spell deals an extra 2 points of damage/level to all targets within the area, with 16 points of cold damage to all targets within 1 mile/CL as a result (18 if you're casting the cleric version, or using heighten).

It's not completely spelled out how flash frost interacts with spells with a duration other than instantaneous. Personally, I'd say the extra damage applies whenever the spell would normally do damage, or when the spell is cast, in absence of base damage. Ruling it like that is essentially saying that all spells default to 0 damage, one-time, right after casting (like fireball).

[General Sajaru]

fimbulwinter in general is a hilarious spell. I have no idea what they intended you to do with it.

Well, in Norse mythology, Fimbulwinter is the precursor to Ragnarok, so I imagine the writers thought it would be a fun spell to include. Besides, it's a good way to make life even more miserable than Control Weather normally would.

[SinsI]

You can only dispel the whole thing if you can find the place (+/-20 feet) of where it was cast from. Which will probably be possible with a few days and contact other plane, but it's not nearly as simple as just casting dispel.

Note that in 3 days that point will be covered by 21 feet of snow, so you would have to dig quite a bit to even have a chance to affect it.

[Venger]

Frostburn has quite a few of those spells that are really only meant for use by villains. Ice Assassin is another really good example.

not... really.

while you may well say ice assassin is intended for NPCs, it still has a clear utility for PCs.

You can't really do anything constructive at all with fimbulwinter, is what I mean. it's kind of a useless spell, like apocalypse from the sky. all it'll do is victimize NPCs who are too piddly for you to even reap xp from.

[gorfnab]

Invisible Spell on Fimbulwinter could be very amusing.

Also the next thing you should do after casting Fimbulwinter is to sing "Let it go". :smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

while you may well say ice assassin is intended for NPCs, it still has a clear utility for PCs.

Well, yeah. But regardless of its power in the hands of PCs, it doesn't feel like it's meant for PC use. It feels like one of those spells the BBEG wizard casts every now and then to try and assassinate a king or something so the party doesn't forget he exists.


You can't really do anything constructive at all with fimbulwinter, is what I mean. it's kind of a useless spell, like apocalypse from the sky. all it'll do is victimize NPCs who are too piddly for you to even reap xp from.

And it feels like that's the point of the spell, too. "Oh no! An evil wizard has cast our land into deadly winter! Go, brave adventurers, seek him out and stop his evil plans!"

[Venger]

Well, yeah. But regardless of its power in the hands of PCs, it doesn't feel like it's meant for PC use. It feels like one of those spells the BBEG wizard casts every now and then to try and assassinate a king or something so the party doesn't forget he exists.
I feel like I'm not making myself clear.

by "utility," I mean that there is a useful gameplay purpose for PCs.

when I'm talking about "NPC only spells" I mean absolute garbage like steal life or binding. stuff that you'd only use for story stuff, not stuff that the pcs should not have access to for game balance reasons.


And it feels like that's the point of the spell, too. "Oh no! An evil wizard has cast our land into deadly winter! Go, brave adventurers, seek him out and stop his evil plans!"

yeah, but making it a spell mean that it's rather trivial to just dispel it (as discussed above) rather than having to find the 5 sacred macguffins scattered across the land or whatever. the effects of this spell could easily be story-only. I just kinda don't see much of a reason for it to exist.

[DigoDragon]

Does the Energy Substitution metamagic feat work on this spell? I was just thinking of the horrors you could do if you changed it from being a cold spell to say, raining lightning. :smalleek:

[Hawkstar]

Does the Energy Substitution metamagic feat work on this spell? I was just thinking of the horrors you could do if you changed it from being a cold spell to say, raining lightning. :smalleek:

Ehh... since it's not a damaging spell, all a Lightning version would do is bring Frizzy Hairstyles back into fashion.

[AvatarVecna]

Ehh... since it's not a damaging spell, all a Lightning version would do is bring Frizzy Hairstyles back into fashion.

If you made it a Flash Frost spell first, then it would deal 2 cold damage per spell level. At that point, you could Energy Substitution it into whatever energy the feat allows for...including Lightning. Or Sonic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html)

EDIT: Mind you, it wouldn't change the fact that you're using an 8th lvl spell to deal 16 points of damage. Of course, it's a rather large AoE with a duration that's not Instantaneous, and that damage arguably takes place every round rather than just once, so if you're trying to just completely decimate the area, that works out anyway.

[SinsI]

You can't really do anything constructive at all with fimbulwinter, is what I mean. it's kind of a useless spell, like apocalypse from the sky. all it'll do is victimize NPCs who are too piddly for you to even reap xp from.

Controlling weather for a year can be very constructive, as all that snow and wind make it an Epic quality BFC spell against enemy armies. And it'll victimize far more than "too piddly" NPCs - anything without Flight is royally screwed up, and most things with Flight are screwed up too. Two meters of freshly fallen snow is enough to bury alive anything medium-sized, completely disrupting all communication and transportation. A week of this is death for all living creatures that are shorter than ~10 meters. A month will devastate anything that needs to breath and eat.

It can also be used to convert some deserts into sub-tropical forest-filled paradises, something like Green Sahara, since you are creating an enormous amount of water.

[Story]

If you made it a Flash Frost spell first, then it would deal 2 cold damage per spell level. At that point, you could Energy Substitution it into whatever energy the feat allows for...including Lightning. Or Sonic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html)

EDIT: Mind you, it wouldn't change the fact that you're using an 8th lvl spell to deal 16 points of damage. Of course, it's a rather large AoE with a duration that's not Instantaneous, and that damage arguably takes place every round rather than just once, so if you're trying to just completely decimate the area, that works out anyway.

You can also just throw on the usal Locate City Bomb tricks. Flash Frost + Energy Substitution (electricity or sonic) + Born of Three Thunders + Explosive Spell.

Anything that fails the reflex save will basically just die. Though one downside is that Born of Three Thunders takes effect at the end of the spell.

New adventure idea: Evacuate all the civilians in a giant Fimbulwinter effect so that they won't insta-die in 48 weeks.

[Seerow]

You can also just throw on the usal Locate City Bomb tricks. Flash Frost + Energy Substitution (electricity or sonic) + Born of Three Thunders + Explosive Spell.

Anything that fails the reflex save will basically just die. Though one downside is that Born of Three Thunders takes effect at the end of the spell.

New adventure idea: Evacuate all the civilians in a giant Fimbulwinter effect so that they won't insta-die in 48 weeks.

If you're going that route, may as well widen the area as well. I believe upthread CL boosting to ~CL40 to avoid dispelling was mentioned, so that'll give you a radius of 80 miles. That's around 20,000 square miles, and upwards of 400,000 people to evacuate (using a pretty lowball estimate of ~20 population per square mile) through ridiculously extreme conditions. That's way too many to teleport out even if you do it every day for the ~1 year you have.

[Afgncaap5]

Thanks to this spell, Mangar from The Bard's Tale is ever so slightly closer to RAW... then again, that game used a different magic system.

[Twurps]

Flash Frost Spell can only target a spell with the Cold descriptor that affect an area. The spell now deals 2 damage per level of the spell to all targets within the area. Fimbulwinter qualifies, and can thus be made to deal damage. Fell Drain deals a negative level to those damaged by the spell.

Of course, even if this damage and the negative level only occur once per target, right at the beginning of the spell, the area is measured in miles and probably gave at least one town filled with commoners a negative level (not to mention all the friendly woodland creatures) and now they're all wights, so even then it still works out alright.

That's the one. thank you.
Flash frost deals damage to all 'targets' in the area. Fimbulwinter has no targets. (It does not affect any creature or object in its area, it just makes snow fall). Ergo: Flash frost doesn't do anything, and fell drain is useless.

[Invader]

Assuming you cast a maximized fimbulwinter in a hot climate during summer would you rule that a 20 on the chart or 12 after the modifiers. I'd say a 12 so for a decent result in that situation it'd have to be an empowered, maximized for a 22 after modifiers.

That's assuming it can even be maximized/empowered.

[Story]

I would rule that Empower and Maximize don't affect the chat roll at all. It's not a variable numeric effect. The only things that are maximized is the amount of snowfall and the duration.