So, Bloodlines. [3.5]

[Bad Wolf]

Why does every one say they're super cheesy? All your skills are cross class for that level, you don't get any new hit points, improved saves, or BAB. So you'd be pretty fragile.

[Snowbluff]

IIRC, the levels can count as levels for other effects for way less XP. Plzbreakmycampaign used this for an ubermount build.

[Bad Wolf]

What effects?

[AmberVael]

Why does every one say they're super cheesy? All your skills are cross class for that level, you don't get any new hit points, improved saves, or BAB. So you'd be pretty fragile.

Under normal conditions, they are not. If you just use them on a standard character they're actually pretty bad.

However, their capability to raise the effective levels of multiple classes at once can lead to some interesting shenanigans. A common suggestion is to use them in conjunction with Hellfire Warlock, allowing you to boost your hellfire damage above 6d6- thats the example that readily comes to mind for me, but I think there are some uses that let you double up (or more) on caster levels and things like that.

[Bronk]

Why does every one say they're super cheesy? All your skills are cross class for that level, you don't get any new hit points, improved saves, or BAB. So you'd be pretty fragile.

You don't get skill points either.

I think that they can be a flavorful addition to a character, but...

They can be seen as cheesy, because they aren't very well written. For example, the instructions on how to reconcile your XP total are nonexistent (the explanation given doesn't gibe well with the PHB). Also, as written, there's nothing (but your DM) to stop you from taking more than one at a time. The system is sort of an incomplete thought.

[Extra Anchovies]

What effects?


A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

So it advances stuff like caster levels, meldshaping, and binding (and maybe invoking? I know it advances HFW's Hellfire damage).

[Bronk]

So it advances stuff like caster levels, meldshaping, and binding (and maybe invoking? I know it advances HFW's Hellfire damage).

... familiar level, craven feat damage, smite damage, the list goes on!

[Bad Wolf]

Hmm. So would taking it on a binder build advance the pact augmentation and soul guardian class features?

[ExLibrisMortis]

What effects?
Any effects based on class level.

Your abjurant champion can quicken abjuration spells of a level up to one-half their class level. With three bloodline levels, you now have 8 abjurant champion levels instead of 5 - enjoy your quickened dispels. Not to mention +3 extra armour/shield bonus from those useful, useful spells you're casting (at a caster level 3 higher than your ECL, I might add).

Now, go into another class with nice level-based benefits - Zhentarim Skymage? I like that one. At level 1, your mount has 4 + cha HD, because three bloodline levels is three Skymage levels, for this purpose. Pick up Master Specialist 4, get an extra +1.5 bonus on dispel checks, and the requirements for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Hey, look, my veils last three minutes longer than the next guy's, and the dispel DC of my abjurations is three higher!

Bloodline levels aren't so bad if you're single-classed, but they can be very powerful if you're dipping a lot. Also, you can early entry a lot of prestige classes, by going X 1/bloodline 3/Y 1 (lots of skill points here, please). You'd have 2 HD, ECL 2, and a maximum of 8 ranks in your class skills.

The cross-classness of all skills on a bloodline level doesn't matter, because you get no skill points anyway. You can later buy the ranks, though, at your normal in-class cost.

[Threadnaught]

Your ECL stays the same, but your maximum Skill Ranks increase as if you gained a level, all level based stuff from Classes improves by the number of Bloodline Levels taken, you get a load of small bonuses which can be better than effects gained from having something that actually gives Level Adjustment.


And then there's clear and concise rules for creating Custom Bloodlines, which a DM may allow if it fits a theme. You saw the Elf Bloodline, right? That fits a theme beyond "Muahaha! Intelligence to everything!" Being based on the Elves of Aerenal, who are scholars and arcanists, whose focus in life (and undeath) is "Muahaha! Intelligence to everything!"
The Kobold Bloodline fits the theme of "Roar, I'm a Small Dragon!"
Advanced Warforged Bloodline fits the theme of a more advanced version of the Warforged, one that, like a Warforged Artificer, gets to do all kinds of cool stuff to its body.

A DM would be crazy to try to pass off a ban of any of these, based on fluff.
The brokenness of Elf, Advanced Warforged and Elf, especially Elf, is acceptable. Kobold though, what's so broken about flight and a breath weapon? Might as well ban anything but Fighters and just play 4e.

[AmberVael]

Your ECL stays the same, but your maximum Skill Ranks increase as if you gained a level, all level based stuff from Classes improves by the number of Bloodline Levels taken, you get a load of small bonuses which can be better than effects gained from having something that actually gives Level Adjustment.

Its worth noting that the interpretation of Bloodlines is disputed. Some people will use the above interpretation, saying that Bloodlines have no impact on character level / ECL, while others will hold that they work similarly to LA, or just a hit die empty of most benefits.

[Bronk]

Its worth noting that the interpretation of Bloodlines is disputed. Some people will use the above interpretation, saying that Bloodlines have no impact on character level / ECL, while others will hold that they work similarly to LA, or just a hit die empty of most benefits.

Yeah, that's because the rules as written for bloodlines don't mesh with the rules as written for leveling.

Either you stick with the regular leveling (XP as an ever increasing total) and add in the extra concept of LA so that it makes sense, but lose the idea that the bloodline is a 'free level that doesn't count towards HD'...

Or, you keep the concepts of the bloodline being a 'free level that doesn't count towards HD', but have to rework XP so that it resets to zero after every level.

Either way, the DM has to make the call, and it shouldn't have to be that way.

[Story]

I think the problem with Bloodlines is that the rules are incomplete and ambiguous. Depending on the interpretation they can be broken or useless.

[Saintheart]

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

Logging for discussion and/or musing on this, but I'd been ignorant of bloodlines up until now. This potentially makes Runecaster - one of my obsessions - into a three-level dip rather than a heavy eight-level commitment if all you're looking to pick up is the highly-abusable ability to craft permanent runes.

See, creating permanent runes falls under the class feature "Improved Runecasting". It does not tie a class level to permanent runes specifically -- it just says at levels 3 and 8 in the PrC you get "Improved Runecasting". A small table within the PrC then tells you that to use Improved Runecasting to make use-per-day or permanent runes, you must be "minimum Runecaster level 8". (The same table says that in order to make multiple-use or runes that trigger when read or passed, you have to be level 3 in the PrC.)

Therefore: the ability to cast permanent runes depends on your character level. Once you get the first iteration of Improved Runecasting at the PrC's level 3, you've got Improved Runecasting and all you need is for your PrC level to hit 8. With a bloodline, you can then safely abandon the PrC and head off down other trails. Anyone see an issue with this interpretation?

EDIT: never mind, I need to reread it...

[AmberVael]

'free level that doesn't count towards HD'
To give the exact quote being paraphrased here which tends to be the source of all the disputes:

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).



Logging for discussion and/or musing on this, but I'd been ignorant of bloodlines up until now. This turns Runecaster - one of my obsessions - into a three-level dip rather than a heavy eight-level commitment if all you're looking to pick up is the highly-abusable ability to craft permanent runes.

See, creating permanent runes falls under the class feature "Improved Runecasting". It does not tie a class level to permanent runes specifically -- it just says at levels 3 and 8 in the PrC you get "Improved Runecasting". A small table within the PrC then tells you that to use Improved Runecasting to make use-per-day or permanent runes, you must be "minimum Runecaster level 8". (The same table says that in order to make multiple-use or runes that trigger when read or passed, you have to be level 3 in the PrC.)

Therefore: the ability to cast permanent runes depends on your character level. Once you get the first iteration of Improved Runecasting at the PrC's level 3, you've got Improved Runecasting and all you need is for your PrC level to hit 8. With a bloodline, you can then safely abandon the PrC and head off down other casting trails. When you've picked up another five levels in something else, you can then make permanent runes by benefit of your bloodline.

Anyone see an issue with this interpretation?

It does work as far as I see. The main issue is that it is a bad idea, because I'd rather take five levels of runecaster (which give me new spell levels and other goodies) than five levels of bloodline (which increase your caster level and not much else).

[Saintheart]

It does work as far as I see. The main issue is that it is a bad idea, because I'd rather take five levels of runecaster (which give me new spell levels and other goodies) than five levels of bloodline (which increase your caster level and not much else).

Thanks for the response in any event - this is pretty much what I figured after a second look over the rule, which is why I went and scribbled all over my post. Appreciate the analysis anyway :)

[Pluto!]

One reading makes them awful HD-less levels in a build, one reading makes them cost 3k experience for +3 CL, +3 skill rank caps and various feats/SLAs, one reading makes them delay half a character's progression by a level in exchange for the same benefits.

Since those readings go from very weak to very strong to somewhat balanced (until exploited anyway), they're a pretty sketchy ruleset to have to rely on, and the stronger readings often [rightly] raise some red flags for powergaming.

[SinsI]

Why does every one say they're super cheesy? All your skills are cross class for that level, you don't get any new hit points, improved saves, or BAB. So you'd be pretty fragile.

It's not really a level, as it doesn't count towards ECL. "Bloodline level" is like Draconic Ritual - you pay XP equal to how much you need to level up and in exchange get a +1 to maximum skill ranks, +1 to all caster levels and +1 to all class levels for numerical abilities.
So it is closer to LA buyoff with numerous extra benefits.

[Story]

I think by RAW, you may not even need to pay XP. But that's really cheesy, so it's easier to treat them as a sort of LA buyoff.

[SinsI]

It does work as far as I see. The main issue is that it is a bad idea, because I'd rather take five levels of runecaster (which give me new spell levels and other goodies) than five levels of bloodline (which increase your caster level and not much else).

You don't take into account the fact that "XP is a river". A character just 3 levels above party gets only 1/4 of the XP. So with 3 levels of bloodline (AFAIK that's the limit), you are at most 1 character level behind.

Think of it like this - if there was a spell that did what Bloodline level does, would you be willing to cast that spell?

[Bad Wolf]

So bloodline levels count as actual levels? So instead of going Binder 6/KotSS 5/Binder 9, I'd have to go something like this: Binder 2/BL 1/Binder 2/BL 1/Binder 2/KotSS 3/BL 1/KotSS 2/Binder 6.

[AmberVael]

You don't take into account the fact that "XP is a river". A character just 3 levels above party gets only 1/4 of the XP. So with 3 levels of bloodline (AFAIK that's the limit), you are at most 1 character level behind.

Think of it like this - if there was a spell that did what Bloodline level does, would you be willing to cast that spell?

The reason I don't think it is worth it is because I disagree with the bloodline interpretation you are holding to. Losing 5 levels to bloodlines makes my comment far more understandable.


So bloodline levels count as actual levels? So instead of going Binder 6/KotSS 5/Binder 9, I'd have to go something like this: Binder 2/BL 1/Binder 2/BL 1/Binder 2/KotSS 3/BL 1/KotSS 2/Binder 6.

As stated earlier, its a hotly debated topic because the rules are badly written. Also because someone wrote up a guide that makes some massive assumptions that seem to have become popularized.

[SinsI]

The reason I don't think it is worth it is because I disagree with the bloodline interpretation you are holding to. Losing 5 levels to bloodlines makes my comment far more understandable.

As stated earlier, its a hotly debated topic because the rules are badly written. Also because someone wrote up a guide that makes some massive assumptions that seem to have become popularized.

Look at all the published Major Bloodlines - they all list bonuses up to normal Character Level 20. If you were losing levels to bloodline levels, you would only be able to reach Character Level 17.



So bloodline levels count as actual levels? So instead of going Binder 6/KotSS 5/Binder 9, I'd have to go something like this: Binder 2/BL 1/Binder 2/BL 1/Binder 2/KotSS 3/BL 1/KotSS 2/Binder 6.

They don't count towards character level. You would be safely able to get all 9 Binder levels.

[AmberVael]

Look at all the published Major Bloodlines - they all list bonuses up to normal Character Level 20. If you were losing levels to bloodline levels, you would only be able to reach Character Level 17.
Well, there's two of ways of interpreting it that could make sense. Either you consider bloodline levels to actually be levels to some extent rather than LA (and I mean, they aren't called LA), so bloodline levels would count towards acquiring bloodline powers, or...

You can only get all 20 levels of bloodline powers by progressing into epic ECL. Which is entirely reasonable, because its not like Unearthed Arcana doesn't consider epic to exist.


Either way, it seems more reasonable than "it costs xp / changes when you gain levels" interpretation which is the other possible route- that has zero basis at all and has to be entirely made from scratch. Or it leaves the RAW method of "you level up, take a bloodline level, it doesn't increase character level, oh hey, you have enough xp to level up, time to take a character level."

[Story]

Bloodline levels don't contribute to ECL, so you won't go into epic ECL.

[Xuldarinar]

So.... how's about a truenamer with bloodline levels?

[AmberVael]

Bloodline levels don't contribute to ECL, so you won't go into epic ECL.
The whole subject got brought up because I disagree with that first bit. So... yeah. That should make it make more sense.


So.... how's about a truenamer with bloodline levels?

What about it? By default its worse than regular truenamer since you get less utterances, which is saying something. I suppose if you go in for the "doesn't affect ECL" interpretation you could potentially pull out higher ranks in truenaming... but that's still not all that great.

[Extra Anchovies]

What about it? By default its worse than regular truenamer since you don't get utterances, which is saying something.

I don't know about that. The fewer utterances you know, the less time you have to spend wondering what the designers meant when they wrote each of them :smalltongue:

[Bad Wolf]

Okay, so that would basically mean there are no downsides. I can see how people think they're cheesy.