Roleplaying death+undeath, the unpleasentness of it

[Madeiner]

Hi there.

IMC i have a cleric of a death god. He, in and out of character, expressed the desire to become an undead.
Before that, he was a cleric of a nature/good god.
Since being abandonded by own deity, he fell to the dark side and started worshipping a god of death.

He recently completed a major feat for his god, and so i/the god want/s to reward him, by killing him and fullfilling his wishes of undeath.

However, there's a catch.
This character is a jovial halfling, lightharted and at times funny, interested in the small pleasures of life, like drinking.
I want to make him roleplay his undeath, so i want to explain what his character feels.
I want him to be jovial no more, explaining all the horrible things he now has to face as an undead, discovering how horrible it is to be dead and feel nothing but pain.
Note that we are playing a very mature, gritty, depressing campaign where everything continuosly falls apart and the light almost never gets to shine.

I need help trying to explain to the player how horrible undead is, since i believe he didn't even think about it.
He is generally a good roleplayer so i know he can take the change of personality. And if he happens to not like it, i have a means to undo the thing.

How can i convey how horrible undeath is? What should the horrors of undeath be? Feeling no love, just pain, never being able to sleep but always feeling tired even if you really aren't, something like that. Something like a sensation of itching, only the pain grows worse every day and you can never scratch yourself.
Ideally, i'd love for the character to over time realize what a terrible mistake he did, what a curse undeath really is, and ideally eventually feeling so horrible that he needs to undo it, by whatever means necessary.

Maybe even some mechanical consequences would be nice. Not as a penalty, but as a roleplaying encouragement. I can't think of any, however. Something like being able to have mechanical benefits for doing "undead" things (i dunno, removing useless bones or organs?) but then also mechanical penalties, possibly something mental, for having done that.

[Wartex1]

Make him rot, infest him with maggots and rats, have his insides fall out, make him feel constantly ill, etc.

[Bard1cKnowledge]

What? No don't do that, keep him all happy and stuff, just think "what would jack skellington do?"

Well, since he is dead, he can take off his head, to recite Shakespearean quotations

[Yukitsu]

I would say the best way for this is to have him one day realize he will never, ever truly feel what death is. He will never be "dead" which means he will never experience the greatest gift his god can grant. He will never even feel what it is like to die, to move from someone who is living to someone who has his life ebb from him. Since he worships death, to never feels its true embrace, have him feel as though his god has spurned him, that he will be always rejected from the embrace of his deity.

[Kid Jake]

Not sure if you've read Start of Darkness, but you could take a cue from Xykon's origin story and just take away his physical pleasures. He doesn't even have to be in pain, just make him feel...nothing. Being locked in a near sensationless existence would be pretty rough.

[Kane0]

-Snip-

That was my first thought too. Imagine being in a neverending state of 'meh', dulled to all senses and never getting to feel anything like adrenaline or endorphins again. Pain is only experienced in third person, and a constant dull ache replaces the sensations of hunger and fatigue.

Its fine to say he feels numb, but thats only a word. You need to point out everything that he doesnt feel any more until numb cant even begin to describe it.

Then let him decide how he feels and what he does about it.

[Zaydos]

He's drinking, describe the taste. Bland, empty of flavor, less taste even than water. He goes for the better stuff. The same. He tries food. It tastes like ash. He eats the royal chef's quail, famed through the lands as far as tale travels. The same, tasteless ash.

And that's only one sense.

[Esprit15]

As others have said, sensations are muted. Food, whether the finest or the poorest tastes of ash. The most carefully aged wine and the most vile sewage are more flavorless than water. A beautiful flower causes you nothing but hatred, because its beauty is vibrant and temporary, while you are set to live on for ages, never dying. You get no final rest. Sure, time is but an object, but the millenia will eventually grow agravating. The only scent that causes pleasure is carrion (or whatever your undead consumes). Even intelligent undead have that one thing they feed on. Either they have to constantly resist its temptation, or become little more than an animal as the instinct to hunt takes over, and after centuries of holding back, it can become easy to just give in.

I'm actually role playing a girl who just became a vampire because of the allure of immortality, not realizing all that entailed. She's nearly drained a close friend because of ignoring the instinct to feed. She'll never be a parent, a grandparent. She'll watch those she knows grow old and die. She'll only know one taste for the rest of her existence. The only real emotional high comes from feeding. Imagine the only time you feel happy is when you're killing something, and everything else is just there.

"Yes the dragon is dead. Great, we have gold. Why do I care?" There is a constantly repeated trope in DnD, of humans being one of the shortest lived races, yet they make the most progress out of any race because that short time alive encourages them to make as big a mark on the world as possible. With eternity, why bother being remembered? You'll still be around, a relic of the past. You stop feeling kinship with being that exist for the blink of an eye and become apathetic.

If you want depressing undead, just look at all the flaws of immortality and keep adding to them.

[Lord Torath]

I'd imagine that most gods of death would find the undead particularly repugnant. Here are these people escaping its grasp! Seems very unlikely that a god of death would grant his follower undeath. YMMV, though.

That being said, I'd agree with what others have said. Nothing has any taste or flavor. The only thing he feels is a hunger for the blood/soul/energy/flesh of the living (assuming he becomes a feeding-type undead). When the rest of the party is rejoicing over having slain the Big Bad, the most that he can muster is complete and total apathy (What's wrong with me?) You'll note that Jack's ability to take off his head and recite Shakespearean quotations brought him no joy.

[Psyren]

Does HE want to be a joyless, morose undead? If no, why would you force that on him? His character, his personality.

If you want an example of a cheery "dead" character, there are several great examples out there, like Sigrun from Dragon Age Awakening, Manny from Grim Fandango, Morte from Planescape Torment etc.

[Ettina]

Does HE want to be a joyless, morose undead? If no, why would you force that on him? His character, his personality.

This.

If it were me, I'd want to play a happy undead, and I'd be really annoyed if the DM tried to force their vision of my character on me.

I'm not a big fan of Sour Grapes Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SourGrapesTropes). Nor am I a fan of life unworthy of life, and no matter what anyone says, I see undeath as portrayed by fiction as just another kind of life.

Don't tell this player how to play his character. If he wants to make him unhappy about being undead, let him. If he wants him to enjoy being undead, let him. It's his character.

[Kalmageddon]

This.

If it were me, I'd want to play a happy undead, and I'd be really annoyed if the DM tried to force their vision of my character on me.

I'm not a big fan of Sour Grapes Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SourGrapesTropes). Nor am I a fan of life unworthy of life, and no matter what anyone says, I see undeath as portrayed by fiction as just another kind of life.

Don't tell this player how to play his character. If he wants to make him unhappy about being undead, let him. If he wants him to enjoy being undead, let him. It's his character.

The OP was very specific that the campaign is not a happy and light one, quite the opposite. Presumeably the player knows that and is ok with the premise.
With that said, just because you want your character to be happy, it doesn't mean that it should never ever be unhappy if he does something stupid. Like being a character that loves carnal pleasures but turning himself into something explicitly described as having all his senses dulled and being incapable of processing food.
Sure, you can plug your ears and go "lalalala I can't hear you, my character is happy regardless" but that's just horrible RPing.

[Psyren]

The OP was very specific that the campaign is not a happy and light one, quite the opposite. Presumeably the player knows that and is ok with the premise.

That's exactly what that is though, a presumption. Unless he sits down and talks to the player about it, it will likely just cause ill will.

[LudicSavant]

Shadow of the Vampire has an interesting take. I'll let it speak for itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgqgSaDCgC4

[Madeiner]

If you want an example of a cheery "dead" character, there are several great examples out there, like Sigrun from Dragon Age Awakening, Manny from Grim Fandango, Morte from Planescape Torment etc.

Morte is actually an NPC in my campaign. Taken right out of PS:T.
My plan is to talk OOC with the character after a session of undeath. Explaining all those horrible things during play, then checking if he likes that.
If not, Morte will share the secret of how he became cheery and happy, and the character can learn to get senses and joy back in his unlife.

And yes, the campaign is really, really dark.
Everything anyone does eventually causes suffering and despair.
Loved NPCs die left and right. Those who are pure souls eventually sacrifice themselves, obtaining victories that save the world but condemns it to even more darkness.
Each victory is usually followed by horrific consequences. Choices are never easy, and usually revolve around letting an horrible thing happen only to prevent a worse one. Former allies can and will be turned to evil, or die for nothing or are seduced by the dark powers out of despair for something that happened. Cowards survive more easily.
I plan however, to end the campaign (been going on some 8 years real time) in a positive way... if the PCs can make it happen.

Random examples just for fun, if anyone cares:

PCs met a fey, and had to take her with them, or she would be killed for something the PCs did unintentionally.
They then came to love her and she was very close to them.
When they killed Nature itself because it was corrupted and hateful and caused an eternal war, the friendly Fey died, too.
The other choice was condemning an entire kingdom to eternal suffering.
Killing nature resulted in hunger and difficulties for the material plane, which caused people to need to make extreme choices, which caused the planet spirit itself to abandon everyone and leave.
Being left with nothing, one good soul (also a friend of PCs) sacrificed himself to save the one remaning city in the world. In doing so, he caused his wife, again a beloved NPC, to fall to despair and hate, and she's about to make a pact with demons in order to resurrect her lover.
However, she has secrets that he demons cannot learn, so she will ask one character to mind rape her instead. I'm still undecided if her lover will return as a warped being or not.
If the character accepts to mind rape her right there and then, she is lost forever in madness. If he doesn't, the entire world will pay for it as demons learn the secret that protects the only remaining city. Also, the character just learned that he has a curse on him and if he does even one evil act, a magic item will infect the entire world with a terrible disease.
And so on...

[Psyren]

But then, it sounds like he was playing against the spirit of this campaign just being a joyful halfling in the first place. Why did you allow that to begin with?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't particularly see how becoming undead would mute senses. You can magically preserve and restore the body to peak condition, you can cast spells to sense things, you can assume some other form and use that form's senses.

The bad part of undeath is the incessant discrimination by the soon-to-be dead, the positive energy lobby, the paramilitary movements associates with said lobby, and the unwillingness of live cats to be petted by you.

[Elderand]

If you want an example of a cheery "dead" character, there are several great examples out there, like Sigrun from Dragon Age Awakening, Manny from Grim Fandango, Morte from Planescape Torment etc.

I have to object to using Sigrun as an exemple. She is not dead. Not in a biological sense. It's a dwarf cultural thing, not an actual state of being.

[Dimers]

I would say the best way for this is to have him one day realize he will never, ever truly feel what death is. He will never be "dead" which means he will never experience the greatest gift his god can grant. He will never even feel what it is like to die, to move from someone who is living to someone who has his life ebb from him. Since he worships death, to never feels its true embrace, have him feel as though his god has spurned him, that he will be always rejected from the embrace of his deity.

Well, he HAS felt the god's embrace once -- and then lost it immediately, as he continued past 'dead' into undeath. That sweetness might call to him constantly now. The DM could mention it every time there's a potential battle or other chance for the PC to sacrifice themselves for any reason.

[Ettina]

The OP was very specific that the campaign is not a happy and light one, quite the opposite. Presumeably the player knows that and is ok with the premise.
With that said, just because you want your character to be happy, it doesn't mean that it should never ever be unhappy if he does something stupid. Like being a character that loves carnal pleasures but turning himself into something explicitly described as having all his senses dulled and being incapable of processing food.
Sure, you can plug your ears and go "lalalala I can't hear you, my character is happy regardless" but that's just horrible RPing.

But it's up to the player to RP their character, not the DM. Unless the character is explicitly affected by a spell that takes away control of their character (like dominate person or whatever), the DM should never tell the player how their character is thinking, feeling or behaving. If you don't think a player is RPing their character right, you can talk to them OOC about it, but fundamentally, it's their character. Not yours.

It doesn't matter what 'tone' you want for the story.

[Psyren]

I think the tone does matter, but clearly it hasn't been a factor before otherwise he couldn't have been joyful and happy-go-lucky to begin with. My only conclusion (hearing one side of the story) is that these expectations weren't communicated to the halfling player ahead of time.

[Wartex1]

But it's up to the player to RP their character, not the DM. Unless the character is explicitly affected by a spell that takes away control of their character (like dominate person or whatever), the DM should never tell the player how their character is thinking, feeling or behaving. If you don't think a player is RPing their character right, you can talk to them OOC about it, but fundamentally, it's their character. Not yours.

It doesn't matter what 'tone' you want for the story.

The DM does have control over what effects the creature might undergo, such as rotting flesh or the taste of food. After all, that's a product of interaction with the word. Similarly to that, the DM is allowed to tell a player that mood changes are a caveat to becoming an undead.

[Kalmageddon]

But it's up to the player to RP their character, not the DM. Unless the character is explicitly affected by a spell that takes away control of their character (like dominate person or whatever), the DM should never tell the player how their character is thinking, feeling or behaving. If you don't think a player is RPing their character right, you can talk to them OOC about it, but fundamentally, it's their character. Not yours.

It doesn't matter what 'tone' you want for the story.

The DM absolutely can say how a character feels. If a character gets stabbed, and the player isn't RPing it at all, the DM has all the rights to say "you can't just ignore the wound, you are bleeding and in excruciating pain."
Turning yourself undead is similarly something that affects the body of the character in a way that is entirely under the DM's control. From letting the player know that he's rotting while still concious, to informing him that his senses don't work the way that they did when he was alive.

On the subject of emotions, you are generally right, unless there's some kind of compulsion or similar effects the DM shouldn't say how happy or sad the character is. But he can inform the player that after turning undead, the character is being subjected to a series of changes that would be pretty difficult to ignore or just shrug off.
At that point, it's the player that should pick the hint and understand that, by all accounts, a character that was merry an jovial and really comfortable with being alive should feel quite a bit uncomfortable as an undead creature unable to feel anything, bot phisically and, possibily, emotionally, the way it did before.

[Hawkstar]

Eh... I dunno. Does being undead get in the way of his ability to whistle?
Does it make it impossible for him to laugh, smile, dance, and/or sing?

If no to any of those questions, then Undeath doesn't interfere with a sunny personality. However, it may require a reworking of some of the song's lyrics to accommodate death NOT being the final word - at least not the first time. After all, being Un-Dead, he's Not Yet Dead.

Always look on the wight side of life!

[Kalmageddon]

Eh... I dunno. Does being undead get in the way of his ability to whistle?
Does it make it impossible for him to laugh, smile, dance, and/or sing?

If no to any of those questions, then Undeath doesn't interfere with a sunny personality. However, it may require a reworking of some of the song's lyrics to accommodate death NOT being the final word - at least not the first time. After all, being Un-Dead, he's Not Yet Dead.

Always look on the wight side of life!

Going by what Liber Mortis has to say on the subject of being undead, yes, it does. An undead can do all the things you described and yet can't really "mean" or "feel" any of those things. Negative Energy takes away life, both literally and metaphorically. The undead existance is an empty one.

[ExLibrisMortis]

can't really "mean" or "feel" any of those things

takes away life, both literally and metaphorically

the undead existance is an empty one
Hands up who knows what that all means (consider that criticism on the writers of Libris Mortis, not on yourself). I hate this vaguely moralistic 'no you can't be immortal that way, you have to use any other of a thousand ways' attitude to undeath. As if Earth (and human, to boot) morality RE:defiling the dead/cheating death would hold in a fantasy (D&D?) setting.

It's this kind of vague babble that you don't have to put up with as a player (or ever). If the DM can't be clear about what undeath is, physiologically and psychologically, you can make up your own mind. In this case, literally - you can make up what negative energy does to your character's mind, and roleplay it.

In any case, the player is still free to explore avenues to protecting their mind/body against the more unpleasant effects of undeath. In D&D, there's no reason that a (modified) gentle repose spell couldn't keep you all fresh and pretty. Magic jar mentions nothing about mental decay, so what's to stop you from using a phylactery based on that spell? If the player is intent on playing a happy, sunny halfling lich, then you don't stop them - you make them work for it at worst.

Note that good liches exist in the Forgotten Realms - they are highly revered elders of the elves. There are also refluffed 'positive energy undead' in the Book of Exalted deeds, and in Eberron.

[Hawkstar]

In light of my previous post, I think I'm going to re-work Undead to be "Usually Chaotic Evil" (Due to their complete disregard for life), yet incredibly light-hearted (There ain't enough left to weigh anything!) and lethal pranksters/jokers in my campaign.

[Hanuman]

There's lots of different types of undead.

However, undead always implies loss. Undead are powered by negative energy and it is the nature of their existence in reality, there are unliving, deathless, ect and something can always be homebrewed. Negative energy = Loss, the reason undead heal from it is because they are like a vacuum or sinkhole in reality, it's the negative pressure like a tear in reality which allows them animation and power.

As a DM I would offer this as a price, or a number of selectable prices, simply options the player could choose.

Let's say a player wants a magical fire sword, you as a DM wouldn't give him the sword and have it strip him of his roleplay function, but you could give it a gold cost in a shop shelf.

The difference would be instead of gold you'd be offering the player some choice of what this means, the state is bought.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/FMA_gate_of_truth_7086.jpg

Possible prices?
Memory/emotion is a big one, like the doctor regenerating you could wake up and know things, and do things, be exactly who you want but your emotional connections could be cut. You could also have malfunctioning memories like robocop, not realizing who you actually are and have the player rediscover that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0yuaUCKFII

Making the character feel endless pain sounds like lighting a fire under them to do something, if there's no option for resolution then there's no real point. If it's a specific undead you could create feeling as incentive to fulfill racial purpose like zombies eating brains or losing 1 int per day, but that's only if the player wants to become that specific undead and is aware of the consequences.

Other good suggestions are in this thread too, but more creative examples exist, like Marceline from adventure time only eating the color red. Things could work substantially different than the same undead tropes used for the past 40 years.

[Madeiner]

If the player is intent on playing a happy, sunny halfling lich, then you don't stop them - you make them work for it at worst.


I get that -- i know most people here in the forums are worried for the player, but there is no need to.
We have been playing for 8 years and we all can understand what each other wants.
I'm offering a way out of this for the player in session 2 or 3 after undeath (Planescape's sensates can surely offer a way to feel again in undeath, just like Morte, and also limit or hide the body's decay or the bad sensations) We are completely fine on the player's acceptance side. We are working together to create a great story. I'm just trying to surprise him a bit in order to get more intense reactions and roleplays.

Anyway, i've been thinking a few things.
For example, notice that undead are healed by inflict wounds. I'm gonna describe the effect that healing has on him: it actually causes new flesh wounds, but the necromantic energy in the spell also "heals" him.
His body will eventually begin to fail (at least visually) as more inflict spells are used to heal. Also it might be fun to notice that for each new wound you get in battle, you never get to actually close it. It will remain forever, never healing. A spell might change your exterior look, but you have to renew it and each time notice what your body is becoming.

On the matter of drinking and food, i'm thinking food can get in, but has no way out because of no functioning digestive apparatues. You have to get food out somehow if you decide to eat, and it could be pretty disgusting. On the matter of eating, that character has witness an "undead-only" tavern and they were eating and drinking. They seemed ok with that. Now that he's undead, he might notice that maybe they are drinking acid instead, destroying their bodies and feeling pain... but feeling pain might be better than feel nothing.

Finally, i like thinking that undead must have some organs that are useless to them, and eventually become problematic. Say, your stomach is getting worse and worse, rupturing and losing fluids. Some other undead can surely tell him that he doesn't need his stomach anymore, and it's just creating problems... might as well remove it.

[Hawkstar]

On the matter of drinking and food, i'm thinking food can get in, but has no way out because of no functioning digestive apparatues. You have to get food out somehow if you decide to eat, and it could be pretty disgusting.Bile thralls!


So, a skeleton walks into a bar, and orders a beer, and a mop.

[Hanuman]

Bile thralls!


So, a skeleton walks into a bar, and orders a beer, and a mop.

Oh man I can't have that stuff. It goes right through me! :smallbiggrin::smallcool::smallbiggrin:

[JellyPooga]

I feel I have to disagree with most of the replies here that talk about (particularly relating to food) the senses being dulled to the point of everything tasting the same. All food should not taste like ash, regardless of quality. Rather, it should taste muted; the same flavours are there, it's just that the Undead have trouble tasting them. Strong perfumes become elusive scents, sensual textures become plain.

To quote the film Gladiator; "What we do in life, echoes in eternity". I think this is a particularly relevant quote for the Undead; after all, "natural" Undead (i.e. not created through magic) display grotesque exaggerations of their personalities in life; cannibals rise as flesh-craving Ghouls, for example.

Now, I don't know what sort of Undead you're going to make this character (or even if you're just going to slap the Undead type on him), but I would suggest that rather than trying to reverse his personality, play on it. He seems to be a bit of a hedonist in life, so in undeath he should take this to an extreme.

Describe to him how the ale tastes bland and suggest that perhaps a fine wine or strong liquor might sate his craving for flavour. When it doesn't, have an NPC talk about a legendary chef or brewery, that produces the finest food or drink in the land. Should he take the "bait", have him go from place to place, sampling ever greater delicacies that only leave him wanting something more. As time goes by (and he has plenty of it now...), the mundane fare offered by the material plane becomes tiresome; the finest wines fail to slake his thirst and the most delicate sweetmeats become increasingly dull.

As his search takes him to the Planes, he samples Elemental Water, Baatorian Wines, Elysian Ale and other such famously flavoursome fare, but is always left longing.

In the meantime, he's the ultimate party animal; tireless, immune to intoxication, extravagant in his excess, yet always seeking out or throwing ever greater parties in his search for a modicum of the pleasure he once felt at sipping at something as simple as cool stream water.

As for the effects of negative energy on him, I'd suggest not going down the "make him look like a zombie" route, unless the type of Undead you're making him is a "zombie-riffic" one (like a Lich is). Consider that Vampires, eternally youthful and supernaturally handsome, are affected by negative energy in exactly the same fashion as any other Undead.

[No brains]

This is an interesting conflict. Here's my two cents on it. Hope it's helpful.

What kind of undead is he becoming? This is going to matter a lot for how they perceive tastes and feelings. If they're becoming a skeleton, lich, or any other undead that specifically does not eat or have any specific feelings, your takes on undead feeling and eating will make sense.

On the other hand, if they're becoming something like a ghoul or a vampire, then eating and drinking are going to be different. There is something about blood or flesh that makes consuming them rewarding. Is it delicious now? Does it have some form of anesthetic effect on undead pangs/pains?

I also imagine that ghouls and vampires must have some mechanism for eliminating what they take in. I'n not too sure about ghouls because there's no mechanical effect in game for eating flesh, but for vampires, you might want to treat drinking blood as casting a spell with a material component of the blood, just to justify how vampires can drink so much blood and not swell like a tick. If you really want to punish your player for eating when they don't have the functions of it, just consider keeping the weight of their food in their inventory and having the weight stay after the food is eaten...

I also want to know just exactly how this halfling is merry it's going to matter for how being dead affects him. You mentioned that he mostly enjoys physical pleasure like food and drink, but knowing why they do it is important. Do they love to get drunk and be a glutton, or are they just happy to have something to eat? If they experienced starving in life, then they might actually find the concept of ever needing to eat funny on its own. A lack of a metabolism keeps their mouth free for jokes now.