PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 saving throw reduction build/theory



Karroc
2015-05-21, 09:24 PM
Hi folks!
I am currently playing a beguiler in my first ever real D&D campaign, using 3.5 rules. As you may know, beguilers rely on save vs. will quite a lot. In thinking of ways of optimize my spell DC, I also began thinking about other ways to overcome solid will saves; reducing saving throws. To this end, I started looking into abilities that lower saves, and got a bit carried away.
The following build would be a for a companion to my beguiler, totally theoretical, who would focus on lowering saves.

Basically, this is a thread to discuss how to maximize negative modifiers to (will) saves, and to critique and examine my current (theoretical) feats/build.
First off, abilities that lower saves.Winter Chill Unseelie Fey Template (while I have read is considered cheesy) is a great fit, and scales well with CHA. The others are flat bonuses, but still good.
Lowering Saves
-Winter Chill Unseelie Fey Template (moral penalty to saves equal to CHA bonus)
-Aura of Despair (Paladin of Tyranny level 3 ability, 10 ft. -2 to all saving throws)
-Demoralize Opponent (Intimidate vs Level: shaken; -2 attack, ability, saving throws)
-Dark Companion (Hexblade Level 4 Ability: non-creature summon, adjacent enemies take -2 saves and ac)

For race, I tried to maximize my CHA bonus for the Winter Chill. I am still very new to template stacking, so more optimized suggestions are appreciated.
Primordial Half-Giant Unseelie Fey Paladin of Tyranny Hexblade
UF: -2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, +2 CHA (+4 to intimidate)
Half Giant: +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 DEX
Primordial: -4 STR, -2 CON, +4 INT, +4 CHA, gain invis, invis purge, or levitate at will (secrets of Xen’drik, 79)

Overall, some pretty hefty penalties to saving throws can be raked up;

Total: -4 STR, +2 Dex, -2 CON, +4 INT, +6 CHA.
+7 CHA Bonus at level 1, if 18 Char is taken to make 24 total

Total -13 to saving throws
Improved Aura of Despair (-4 to saving throws); (total -15)

I look forward to your feedback!

Taveena
2015-05-21, 10:36 PM
For two feats (Bind Vestige + Improved Bind Vestige) you can bind Focalor, whose Aura of Sadness stacks with the above. Brutal Strike sickens them for another -2. An Impact Cursespewing Minotaur Greathammer (the only bludgeoning weapon with an improved threat range) gives another -4. Death Devotion fueled by Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard levels applies stacking negative levels on top of that.

I'd also suggest adding the Magic-Blooded template for another +2 cha, -2 wis. An alternative to Half-Giant, if you want to avoid LA, is the Menta Cyclopean.

Azoth
2015-05-22, 03:54 AM
Doomspeak Feat gives -10 to saves for 1 round per use with a save of 10+HD+cha. (Yes that is full HD not 1/2HD)

Vexing Weapon (Hexblade only weapon enchant) gives -X (where X=enhancement bonus)

Death Devotion is -1 per negative lvl

nedz
2015-05-22, 04:37 AM
If you can stand being Exalted: Sacred Vow followed by Vow of Non-Violence would add +4 to your save DCs. It's not as if your spells actually do damage anyway.

Karroc
2015-05-22, 11:48 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions!
Many of these are great. I am mostly trying to avoid allowing saving throws to reduce saving throws, because if they have good enough saves, they won't get lower saves if they get a chance to save against it.
@nedz; I've looked into it, but I don't think I want to stick to being "good good" all the time

@Azoth; Doomspeak looks great, so maybe adding Bard to the build would be cool! Need to look up sources for vexing weapon, sounds pretty good.

@Taveena Not sure I want to mess with binding, though that still fits w/ stacking. Magic blooded looks cool though!

Twurps
2015-05-22, 11:57 AM
the first level of evangelist gives you 'inspire dread' which imposes a -4 to will saves.

Ellowryn
2015-05-22, 02:44 PM
There is another Cyclops out of that same magazine called Feral-Kind Cyclops which might work better.

Best i can do is level seven:
Feral-Kind Cyclops (+2 Str, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 Int)
Unseely Fey (-2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +2 cha)
Magic-Blooded (-2 wis, +2 cha)
Primordial (-4 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Cha)
Total= -4 Str, -2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, +8 Cha
Starting Stats: 14 Str, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 8 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha
Final Stats: 10 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 27 Cha (+1 for leveling)

Hexblade 4
Paladin of Tyranny 3

Feats:
Bind Vestige
Improved Bind Vestige

Total Penalty to Saves before intimidate: -15

Not exactly a melee powerhouse, but not horrible as a Cohort.

Azoth
2015-05-22, 03:14 PM
Vexing weapon is from Dragon Mag #339 pg 93.

Sorry I remembered it wrong. The thing gives a minus to just about everything but saves.