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Cowboy_ninja
2007-04-21, 11:37 AM
most of the dungeons i have played in are made like this:

players make their characters. with no idea of what the dungeon is.

the DM makes a "world" and throws the players in. Players are not railroaded that much so not much happens and its hard to find the storyline the DM did make.

i've decided to make a dungeon but im not making a world. i make a single dungeon wiht an intro. and i tell the players something like "this is a dungeon for treasure hunter.... make treasure hunters"


ideas and opinions on the two different dungeon styles?

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-21, 11:42 AM
The first isn't a dungeon, it's a complete campaign setup of whatever length. It's also the sort of game I'd prefer to play.

The one-off dungeon is a perfectly reasonable use of the D&D game, though.

Hazkali
2007-04-21, 11:56 AM
The first type of game is the game I started with. However I now do a third type of game-


Ask the players what sort of game they want to play
Design a game world that lets them do this
Listen to them grumble about how the game world isn't what they wanted after all (optional)
Have them design characters that fit in the world, with restrictions on character types that will be cohesive.
Make quests obvious and have plenty of backup random encounters and side quests in case of PCs not taking the bait.


It's impossible to accomodate everyone, but you eventually get a campaign world that's not too shabby.


players make their characters. with no idea of what the dungeon is.

the DM makes a "world" and throws the players in. Players are not railroaded that much so not much happens and its hard to find the storyline the DM did make

I don't think you've had a good experience of playing games in a world. It is a lot of work, time and effort but players tend to feel more connected when they have a world to mess about in. Random dungeons are okay, but I find that the lack of obligation to make them logical or thematic is more of a curse than a boon.

I would say give campaign worlds a second chance. Maybe buy one or two of the Dragonlance, Faerun or Ebberon splatbooks if you don't feel like making a world from scratch.

Cowboy_ninja
2007-04-21, 11:57 AM
The first isn't a dungeon, it's a complete campaign setup of whatever length. It's also the sort of game I'd prefer to play.

The one-off dungeon is a perfectly reasonable use of the D&D game, though.

but seriously, how is a DM supose to keep up in a campaign? what draws the line at enough planning? what DO you plan?

nothing is happening story wise in the dungeon ... or rather campaign im in. its obviously lack of planning on the DM part but how much SHOULD he be planning. the thought scares me thats why i dont want to run them.

so compared to a one-off dungeon(why are they called one-off dungeons?) how much more preparation does a campaign need?

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-21, 12:09 PM
Never run a campaign, so I probably shouldn't advise on that. I'm a partisan of an interesting world (with, presumably, existing conflicts and threats that the PCs might get involved with) not actually needing a 'plot', but it sounds like you have different goals.

A one-off dungeon is where you've got a dungeon, people make characters/sheets to play through the dungeon, and then it's over. As opposed to having either a lengthier plot arc, or an open-ended plot/hole-where-plot-might-go, and continuing with your characters lives after they finish looting whatever hole in the ground.

Tellah
2007-04-21, 12:26 PM
but seriously, how is a DM supose to keep up in a campaign? what draws the line at enough planning? what DO you plan?

nothing is happening story wise in the dungeon ... or rather campaign im in. its obviously lack of planning on the DM part but how much SHOULD he be planning. the thought scares me thats why i dont want to run them.

so compared to a one-off dungeon(why are they called one-off dungeons?) how much more preparation does a campaign need?

I run full-on campaigns, myself. I try not to think of it as building an entire world, but presenting small aspects of the world in what the PCs are doing--if it's not in the three or four storyline threads I'm developing in the campaign, I'm not going to write it up. Some DMs drive themselves crazy statting out every villager and shopkeep in every town in every continent on every plane. I don't. I build a few towns I expect my players to visit, and I try to give them each a unique feel. I pull out a stat block for a typical villager or a typical shopkeep when there's an interaction that requires rolling, and I have a sheet of appropriate names for people if the PCs ever ask a name (nine times out of ten they won't). Major businesses of interest to the PCs have names and a quick description to spur my imagination at the table.

I guess what it boils down to is this: write up enough notes so you have something planned for all the things you expect your players to do, and improvise the rest. I've seen DMs veer off to either extreme, and while I'm impressed with very organized and detailed world-building, I don't think it makes for a significantly better gaming experience. Express the things that make your world different by letting the PCs get to see it--nobody really relishes listening to an hour-long treatise on what makes the game world tick.

Roethke
2007-04-21, 12:41 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_Village

This is what you want. Just enough depth so that the players have an easy enough time suspending their disbelief.

In my opinion, the key is having your 'construction materials' close at hand. For myself, I don't have too much trouble coming up with stock characters, or personality quirks for the less important NPCs, but my brain always freezes up at names, and keeping track of names I've made up spur of the moment. So a list of random names, along with some room to write a couple of notes is essential, for me.

Maybe you're good at names, but need stock characters. There are tables and tables of little personality quirks that can make whatever world you're in a bit more than 'The shop, the tavern and the dungeon'.
----

As for the other question, railroading vs. putting the PC's in the world. I'd say that railroading has gotten a bad rap-- or at least it has come to mean ANY attempt by the DM to influence the players actions.

It's a game, after all, and maybe the truly well role-played character wouldn't respond to the beckoning old man in the corner of the tavern, but there should be some understanding between players and DM. So, be liberal with your adventure hooks. If the PC's walk out of the tavern, have them run into the old man later, or rescue him from being robbed. If it looks like they're running away from hooks on purpose, stop the game for a sec, and ask the players what they want to do. Sometimes they really just want to go hack goblins to pieces in the hills, and don't care much for a bona fide adventure. Other times, they're really too dense to see the hook (i.e. you didn't make it obvious enough).

Maxymiuk
2007-04-21, 12:41 PM
but seriously, how is a DM supose to keep up in a campaign? what draws the line at enough planning? what DO you plan?

nothing is happening story wise in the dungeon ... or rather campaign im in. its obviously lack of planning on the DM part but how much SHOULD he be planning. the thought scares me thats why i dont want to run them.

I usually start planning out my campaign around two, maybe three central ideas. For example, there's two campaigns I'm currently running, both set in Altadia - a homebrew world of mine. The backdrop is an empire that fell apart five years ago, worn out with a three century war, its resources strained beyond recovery, with the killing blow being the emperor's assasination.

The first campaign revolves around a small group of adventurers looking for fame and gold in the Northern Frontier - the province that was the battlefield of the war. I plan for the group to be caught between several powers vying for control of the region, the undead coming from a yet unkown source, and possibly the mystery of the disappearance of the elves (who were the other side in the aforementioned war, until they suddenly vanished).

The second campaign takes place in Osseron, the former capitol of the empire, and focuses on a gang of thugs and criminals with ambitions of one day controlling the whole of the city's underworld - or maybe even a bit more. Against them stand rival gangs, corrupt officials, the city watch, and any number of surprises I plan to throw at them.



Once I have that central idea in place, I set to designing factions, major NPC's, and various time-sensitive events. The rest I leave up to the players - they decide what moral stance to take, whom to trust, what to do. It's as much their story as mine, after all.

Bah, I could go on and on, but you can't really explain GMing without showing it at the same time. And even then, each GM has their own approach to gaming - by that I mean favorite system, genre, style, approach to RAW vs. homebrew, preparation vs. improvisation, etc, etc.
The best way to learn, is to simply do it.
No, scratch that. The best way to start learning is to first have a fair amount of experience as a player, under several GM's. This can give you a good estimate of what works, what doesn't, what to look out for, which mistakes not to make... and so on. :smallamused:

Theodoxus
2007-04-21, 01:04 PM
I DM off the cuff... I learned that trick with Star Wars... basically, I have a few interesting plot lines the players can follow - I throw them out fairly quickly "You overhear a conversation between a dwarf and an elf, getting fairly heated regarding who's a better shot. The two eventually head outside, seemingly to prove it then and there. Meanwhile, the barmaid has been eyeing (which ever char has the highest chr) all evening. She finally gets the courage to come over 'Hi, my name is Charley - I have a problem I think you can help me with'... As Charley begins spinning her tale, the door to the tavern slams open an a burly half-orc is standing in the doorway - a look of pain on his face as he scans the room. His gaze finally stops on (random, or possibly a specific char I think might move the story forward). He grunts something in orcish and swiftly moves to your table. 'Me Festim, you shoot me dog-horse. Pay up er die.'"

At this point, I've got a basic idea in my head where things are going. The dwarf-elf rivalry will heat up into a gang fight - they're in rival gangs which generally keep off each others turf, but if the players intervene, hilarity (and bloodshed) will ensue. The barmaid wants the charismatic character to try and convince her landlord to reduce her rent. What the player doesn't know is her landlord is the Mayor of the town, and convincing him of anything will require a side quest (which at this point, I haven't thought up, but would probably consist of a quick dungeon-esque romp to recover an item or somesuch.) The half-orc is miffed that someone shot his horse, and saw the character leaving the scene of the crime... unfortunately, it was much later in the day - but the orc is (as you probably guessed) not quite all there. The player(s) will need to convince him or offer reciprocity - which, depending on their alignment, might send them off looking for repayment from the actual villian(s). (again, other than a nagging in my head, I haven't thought who actually killed the horse - but it could well tie back into that gang rivalry.)

More often than not, as I move through the course of an adventure, bit characters might develop into something more substantive. The barmaid, months down the road might turn out to actually be the head of the assassin's guild in deep cover. The half-orc might actually be a cursed child whos become the town bully or victim... The slightly big and bad evilish guy that took the Mayors lawn ornament could turn out to be the son of one of the characters mentors... who knows!

The most important thing to me as DM is that the players have fun. Whether thats randomly rolling up 6 encounters with Dire Badgers in a row (and hence organically became an inside joke for us) or creating a crazy city where each section is modeled after one of the nine alignments (and a lot of people going 'wait, why are the dwarves in the bad side of town?') Its always about the fun.

I wouldn't stress too much about whether you're doing a 'good job' or creating a huge living breathing world where everyone has a name and stats - that's never important. DM fiat sees to that. Make the bad guys keep the players on their toes, make the good guys helpful (and even too helpful, where they get in the way)... Numbers are boring - its the tale thats fun.

Hope that helps, some.

Theo

Raum
2007-04-21, 01:47 PM
but seriously, how is a DM supose to keep up in a campaign? what draws the line at enough planning? what DO you plan? First, limit your scope. You don't need to completely define the world or even the part the PCs are in. A simple framework or outline of the area / plots likely to intersect with the PCs should be enough. Just be ready to expand on the parts the PCs do stumble on.


nothing is happening story wise in the dungeon ... or rather campaign im in. its obviously lack of planning on the DM part but how much SHOULD he be planning. the thought scares me thats why i dont want to run them.It's often enough to simply give your BBEG a goal. What he and the minions in the rest of the area are doing and planning spring from the intended result. So if your dungeon's ruler has buried himself in said dungeon to protect himself from an enemy while he researches a way to destroy the enemy, his actions and the actions of the bugbears he recruited as guards should all have one of two goals. They're either "protecting" the BBEG or researching his enemy. The raids into nearby towns may be all for gathering information on the enemy's actions. The destruction of a nearby mine was simply to prevent it from becoming a danger to the BBEG's dungeon sanctuary.

There's a basic plot with at least two plot hooks (raids & mine) all stemming from a single BBEG's goals. In a larger campaign, you might have multiple BBEGs or BBGGs with opposing or intersecting goals. Which ones the PCs follow tell you which direction you need to flesh out.


so compared to a one-off dungeon(why are they called one-off dungeons?) how much more preparation does a campaign need?The short answer is "it depends". How big was the dungeon? How much thought was put into it's ecology? It's reason for existence? It's residents' goals? How those goals interact? What do the residents do about intruders? Do they cooperate? Do they expand into areas where former residents were murdered?

You can put the same amount of work into a dungeon as you do into a city. However, few do. Which brings us to "one off dungeons"...they're usually random tunnels in the ground with random residents who all detest PCs for some unknown reason. Or maybe it's the PCs who have an unexplained hatred for all the residents. Either way, it's a series of combats with little reason for happening.

BardicDuelist
2007-04-21, 01:52 PM
Something I learned:
Create a place (generally a small village). Give that place a set of adventure hooks and problems (1-4, made for characters of varying alignments). If you know what your players are playing, develop the ones you think they will go down a little further. Create a dungeon (with map and treasure) and just add the monsters based on the plot. It works for "quick" DMing.

Matthew
2007-04-21, 03:30 PM
Building a Campaign World is a challenge. It is difficult, it is time consuming and Dungeon Master's often invest more into them than they get out of them. Most Dungeon Masters build at least one at some time or another, sometimes it pans out and sometimes it does not. Ready made Campaign Worlds are a much easier option, but they do not suit everyone. Some people can ad hoc a consistant and believable Campaign World, making up details on the spur of the moment, most people cannot. However, no matter how an individual prepares, it is likely that they will have to make up some aspects with little or no preperation time. This is a lot easier if you have an already established and detailed Campaign World to fall back on.

Running an Adventure (or Dungeon) is usually the easiest type of game. The Campaign World doesn't need much detail at all beyond the localities in which the Adventure takes place and the details tend to be generic; Greyhawk is an ideal setting for running this sort of game. Afterwards, you may seek to run another Adventure with the same Characters, at which point you are likely starting a Short Term Campaign.

Running a Short Term Campaign requires more effort, as the Campaign World needs to be able to support a protracted storyline, but it doesn't need to be very detailed. Sometimes there will be a single storyline, other times it will be composed of a string of Adventures related only by the identities of the Protagonists. Greyhawk can support such a game, but something like The Forgotten Realms is better equipped. Such a game will probably only last a few weeks or months.

Running a Long Term Campaign can be a lot of work and necessitates a detailed Campaign World of one form or another. The more detailed the Campaign World, the easier it is to run a Long Term Campaign, so unless you have access to a detailed version of Greyhawk, you would have to develop a significant portion of that world. The Forgotten Realms is best suited to this sort of campaign. The storyline is almost always inter related, but not in every case. Such a game may last months or even years.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

Rasumichin
2007-04-21, 06:45 PM
Something I learned:
Create a place (generally a small village). Give that place a set of adventure hooks and problems (1-4, made for characters of varying alignments). If you know what your players are playing, develop the ones you think they will go down a little further. Create a dungeon (with map and treasure) and just add the monsters based on the plot. It works for "quick" DMing.

Good point.

I'd like to elaborate a bit on the hooks, though.
When you've got a rough outline, go and ask your players what characters they are going to play, what they find cool about playing this specific character and, especially, some detaills about their backstory.

Impotant points here are the characters' motivation, unresolved conflicts and connections to possible NPCs.

Then you go and take as many detaills from these backstories and work them into your scenario.
Make it personal from the very beginning.
And elaborate on this, let the world of your campaign react to the party's actions.
Make the players feel as if there's nothing more important in the world than getting rid of that BBEG.
If you want to know what i mean, just check out how Xykon has become the most loathsome and detestable villain imaginable for Roy.

And, actually, given the right information from your players, it's quite easy to do this yourself.

Imagine one of the players has got one of those terribly clichéd characters who was orphaned as a kid when his parents had that unfortunate encounter with marauding orcs and then had to become a spiked chain wielding fighter, CoDzilla or whatever to look for revenge?
Great.
The chief minion of the BBEG just happens to have led this group of marauding orcs 20 years ago and now the PC can get all vengeful and stuff.
Better yet, the BBEG is also holding that girl hostage, the one the party's wizard knows from mage academy or his mentor or wherever he learned the whole wizardry stuff.
And back in the days when the group's rogue got trained by the thief's guild, she always heard those stories about the legendary treasure hoard, you know, the one that just happens to sit in the BBEGs dungeon.

Don't just let the PCs stumble into a tavern and meet an old man who got beaten up by some villain or whatever.
Make sure there is a connection between the PCs and your adventure.
Get them involved and they will start acting without being railroaded into it.