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View Full Version : Player Help Not Evil, just... bad. (Character concept)



Vitruviansquid
2015-05-22, 12:40 PM
I'm interested in playing a character who's not capital-E-Evil, just... not a very good person. Anyways, here's my character concept for a Pathfinder game, tell me what you think.

Backstory: Jonas is a 35-year old half elf foundling raised in a predominantly human city that was under the influence of a nomadic hobgoblin army (or substitute with other generic Pathfinder bad guy race) that entered the region and basically started making trouble of all kinds, robbing the people, demanding tributes, and so on. From the early days of the oppression, the city had a prophecy of a savior:

"He will come by a strange birth,
By dragon's might, by winter's bite he comes
Arctic wind sound, hoarclad doom found,
Outlanders cast out by outlander's hand."

So, when Jonas's sorcerous powers (inherited from a white dragon lineage) manifested at the age of twenty-two, he quickly became known as the hero of the entire city, despite having a maximum of only one noble bone in his body. The king of the city pledged his assistance to the sorcerer and sent the hobgoblins their emissaries' heads instead of the monthly tribute, the people armed themselves, and everybody looked to Jonas to lead an uprising against the hobgoblins. Unfortunately, Jonas wasn't quite ready for the responsibility. Rather than lead the uprising, he skipped town, becoming part vagrant, part adventurer, part fugitive from a haunted past, and not at all a messianic savior.


Personality: Jonas displays an easy-going personality. Alarmingly easy-going by most standards. He has frequently been known to decide that problems (like bar tabs or mysterious pregnancies) are other people's problems. He lives from moment to moment, without foresight or really much hindsight, and seems to have trouble understanding the idea of consequences. Jonas is an inveterate boor, slacker, hedonist, scofflaw to most people and himself, but maybe, unbeknownst to anyone and least of all himself, his constant wanderings entail the search for a worthy cause where he could finally make up, karmicly, for his life-defining failure.

AvatarVecna
2015-05-22, 01:12 PM
I'm interested in playing a character who's not capital-E-Evil, just... not a very good person. Anyways, here's my character concept for a Pathfinder game, tell me what you think.

Backstory: Jonas is a 35-year old half elf foundling raised in a predominantly human city that was under the influence of a nomadic hobgoblin army (or substitute with other generic Pathfinder bad guy race) that entered the region and basically started making trouble of all kinds, robbing the people, demanding tributes, and so on. From the early days of the oppression, the city had a prophecy of a savior:

"He will come by a strange birth,
By dragon's might, by winter's bite he comes
Arctic wind sound, hoarclad doom found,
Outlanders cast out by outlander's hand."

So, when Jonas's sorcerous powers (inherited from a white dragon lineage) manifested at the age of twenty-two, he quickly became known as the hero of the entire city, despite having a maximum of only one noble bone in his body. The king of the city pledged his assistance to the sorcerer and sent the hobgoblins their emissaries' heads instead of the monthly tribute, the people armed themselves, and everybody looked to Jonas to lead an uprising against the hobgoblins. Unfortunately, Jonas wasn't quite ready for the responsibility. Rather than lead the uprising, he skipped town, becoming part vagrant, part adventurer, part fugitive from a haunted past, and not at all a messianic savior.


Personality: Jonas displays an easy-going personality. Alarmingly easy-going by most standards. He has frequently been known to decide that problems (like bar tabs or mysterious pregnancies) are other people's problems. He lives from moment to moment, without foresight or really much hindsight, and seems to have trouble understanding the idea of consequences. Jonas is an inveterate boor, slacker, hedonist, scofflaw to most people and himself, but maybe, unbeknownst to anyone and least of all himself, his constant wanderings entail the search for a worthy cause where he could finally make up, karmicly, for his life-defining failure.

If Red Fel doesn't pop in later, I'll probably point him your way. Bottom line, this is the kind of character who's Neutral leaning Evil at best and straight up Evil at worst (although it's not a strong Evil). However, don't despair: just because you've got that capital E in your alignment doesn't mean the blood of the innocent is the only beverage that will satisfy your thirst. You can just be a prick...which is what it looks like you are (that is to say, what your character is). My suggestion is to either work with your Evil nature: generally avoiding responsibility, only helping out others if it helps you more, that kind of stuff. Of course, you could have a redemption arc, where you find your worthy cause, and slowly work yourway Good-wards while learning to care about other people. It could be interesting either way.

Karl Aegis
2015-05-22, 01:13 PM
I like how the humans are seemingly worse than the generic bad guy race. Bad guys are trying to coexist with humans, but humans decide that genocide is the only answer. The nation obviously wasn't very large due to the fact that it has a king as its ruler instead of a mayor (the king probably doesn't have any real power if there is a mayor) and it didn't have any allies or else they would have gotten an army big enough to displace the generic bad guy race.

I think the character did a good thing by abandoning his role as messiah. This way both sides avoid casualties and their mutual defense is more assured. A costly civil war would leave the city open to the exploitation of a foreign power and the nation might just be annexed by a stronger nation with a smart (or at least not dumb) leader. The bad guy race is really the only thing deterring another invasion at this point.

Red Fel
2015-05-22, 01:36 PM
If Red Fel doesn't pop in later, I'll probably point him your way.

Three times! You're supposed to say the name three times! This isn't rocket surgery, it's profane and unholy summoning ritual magic! So easy, people!

... three times. Sheesh!


Bottom line, this is the kind of character who's Neutral leaning Evil at best and straight up Evil at worst (although it's not a strong Evil). However, don't despair: just because you've got that capital E in your alignment doesn't mean the blood of the innocent is the only beverage that will satisfy your thirst. You can just be a prick...which is what it looks like you are (that is to say, what your character is). My suggestion is to either work with your Evil nature: generally avoiding responsibility, only helping out others if it helps you more, that kind of stuff. Of course, you could have a redemption arc, where you find your worthy cause, and slowly work yourway Good-wards while learning to care about other people. It could be interesting either way.

He is, at best, Neutral. I don't think he's quite as Evil as AV seems to, and here's why - apathy and selfishness aren't inherently Evil traits. Leaving others to suffer or die isn't inherently Evil, although it's definitely a level of callous disregard that rapidly approaches Evil.

He's also unlikely to be Lawful. Even if he had no moral compunctions about helping the people relying on him, a Lawful character is more likely (although not required) to feel a sense of duty or obligation to those people. So Lawful is unlikely. Chaotic is more likely; Chaotic is often the alignment of the "free spirit," the character who feels the need to pursue his own dreams, his own destiny, without being bound by the expectations or obligations of others.

So you've got somebody who's likely CN, approaching CE. Not the best start for a PC, but not fatal. Let's look into the character himself, shall we?


Backstory: Jonas is a 35-year old half elf foundling raised in a predominantly human city

Hmm. A Half-Elf foundling in a predominantly Human city. I'm going to be candid, my snowflake radar is picking up some pings. That's not a bad thing; I love a little bit of uniqueness in characters. But there's a line between "unique" and "magical fairy unicorn sparkly vampire princess," and as a rule we don't want to cross it.

At the very least, I would want to know why a Human family (or orphanage) took in a Half-Elf, particularly if it's a community under siege, and thus unlikely to be open to outsiders or generous with supplies, shelter or food.

Let us press on.


that was under the influence of a nomadic hobgoblin army (or substitute with other generic Pathfinder bad guy race) that entered the region and basically started making trouble of all kinds, robbing the people, demanding tributes, and so on. From the early days of the oppression, the city had a prophecy of a savior:

... Oh jeez, there's a prophecy.


"He will come by a strange birth,
By dragon's might, by winter's bite he comes
Arctic wind sound, hoarclad doom found,
Outlanders cast out by outlander's hand."

Please don't let him be the prophesied hero, please don't let him be the prophesied hero...


So, when Jonas's sorcerous powers (inherited from a white dragon lineage) manifested at the age of twenty-two, he quickly became known as the hero of the entire city, despite having a maximum of only one noble bone in his body.

... Okay. So maybe he's not the prophesied hero. But the fact that an aimless 22 year-old drifter suddenly develops ice powers means that suddenly they all herald him as their savior? Even you seem to acknowledge ("despite having a maximum of only one noble bone in his body") that it's a bit of a stretch. I mean, maybe if they noticed him at a tender young age, before he impressed them all with his concentrated apathy, maybe. But at this age he's pretty much exactly what people would avoid in a savior.

It doesn't sell, is what I'm saying.


The king of the city pledged his assistance to the sorcerer and sent the hobgoblins their emissaries' heads instead of the monthly tribute, the people armed themselves, and everybody looked to Jonas to lead an uprising against the hobgoblins. Unfortunately, Jonas wasn't quite ready for the responsibility. Rather than lead the uprising, he skipped town, becoming part vagrant, part adventurer, part fugitive from a haunted past, and not at all a messianic savior.

Right. So he ditched. That's not necessarily Evil - although how he reacts to basically having the blood of his adoptive hometown on his hands will better determine his alignment - but it's pretty selfish.


Personality: Jonas displays an easy-going personality. Alarmingly easy-going by most standards. He has frequently been known to decide that problems (like bar tabs or mysterious pregnancies) are other people's problems. He lives from moment to moment, without foresight or really much hindsight, and seems to have trouble understanding the idea of consequences. Jonas is an inveterate boor, slacker, hedonist, scofflaw to most people and himself, but maybe, unbeknownst to anyone and least of all himself, his constant wanderings entail the search for a worthy cause where he could finally make up, karmicly, for his life-defining failure.

Oh, yeah. This guy is pretty clearly CN, possibly CE, and definitely raises about a half dozen red flags. He has no guiding goals, no overarching desires, he's the definition of a murderhobo. As a DM, I would be incredibly wary of this character, simply because he's so unpredictable.

I don't know you as a roleplayer. You could be awesome, I don't know. But if I saw this character in the hands of some roleplayers I've seen, I'd read it as a declaration of intent to do whatever the player feels like doing at any given time, which is one of the more disruptive ways to ruin a campaign and everybody's fun.

I'd strongly advise you to put more ties in his background. Goals. Desires. Does he want to find his original family? Does he feel guilt about leaving the city? Hatred towards the creatures who sacked it? Shame about his gifts? Curiosity about, well, anything? As he is written, a DM will be hard-pressed to motivate him to do anything without basically slapping him in the face and pantsing him. There's nothing there to use.

Geddy2112
2015-05-22, 01:40 PM
I don't think this is even close to evil. Being a scumbag or unpleasant person does not make you evil off the bat. Evil means you do whatever you can to get ahead and advance yourself. Certainly this character is out for himself, but you have done nothing evil, not even once. Deciding not to get involved in a conflict and pick sides is quite neutral. Avoiding other peoples problems and focusing on yourself but not hurting people? Neutral. Certainly a lack of respect for others and being an indivdualist is chaotic, but the character seems to be apathetic to the struggles of good and evil, and only slightly resent doing anything for anybody(regardless of reason).

Your character is not even that malicious-you simply cannot be bothered to care about anything, hardly even himself. I would say he is true neutral by apathy and indifference.

Now, I find this far worse to a campaign than an evil character. Your character seems to have no motivation to do anything but wander aimlessly so in an adventuring party you are likely to either 1. Just be along for the ride as a warm body or 2. Take unnecessary actions that strain the group dynamic. This is the kind of character who contributes next to nothing on a good day, and whose actions turn the game into a farce on a bad day. Why even travel with a party? Why go on any adventure? Why care? Go find the tavern, get free drinks by the easiest and safest means possible, repeat. 'I don't care", "me first and only" and "whats in it for me?" are horribly toxic things for a PC to think in a group game. Unless the entire party or game is set in this tone.

As far as being "bad". Lawful good people are often hard asses who are seen as "bad" because they are sticklers for good and duty etc. Evil people might come across as very nice and kind so they can secretly and utterly manipulate people. Just because you are "nice" or "mean" has little to do with your alignment.

Edit-Damn you Red Fel for Ninja'ing me!

Red Fel
2015-05-22, 01:46 PM
Damn you Red Fel

Too late. :smalltongue:

Karl Aegis
2015-05-22, 01:47 PM
If we say "Red Fel" a third time does he come back?

Red Fel
2015-05-22, 01:55 PM
Red Fel


Red Fel


If we say "Red Fel" a third time does he come back?

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/3225881/beetlejuice-o.gif

Yes. Yes he does. See? Somebody gets it.

... Okay, okay, I'll stop now.

AvatarVecna
2015-05-22, 02:13 PM
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/3225881/beetlejuice-o.gif

Yes. Yes he does. See? Somebody gets it.

... Okay, okay, I'll stop now.

Oh, I fully understand how the summoning ritual works. That's why I'm not doing it: I don't actually want to summon the full might of the being so evil that he's a deity and two separate Elder Evils at the same time. I'm crazy, not stupid.

JeenLeen
2015-05-22, 02:22 PM
I could see CE or CN for this character. But I think this would be the 'little-e evil' level of CE, if not a very uncaring CN. You don't really care about others, and at times you cause trouble (not paying debts, skipping town after getting a girl pregnant, etc.) but you don't actively kill people or try to cause harm.

For roleplaying the character, I'd recommend trying to tie him into the party somehow or into the plot. Maybe he's starting to regret what happened and his decision about his hometown (even if subconsciously, as your opening post seems to hint) and is trying to gain power and resources to save the town, or at least somehow redeem himself. He doesn't want to admit that he wants to help people -- too much effort -- but all the same he wants to.

If the plot has a prophecy that hints about the PCs doing something, that could be the tie-in. He fled fate once, and doesn't want to again.

But I agree with Red Fel that this could be a disruptive murder-hobo. For all these points, I recommend talking to the DM about the PC fitting into the game and, if desirable on both your parts, how to tie in a motivation.

NowhereMan583
2015-05-22, 06:35 PM
... Okay. So maybe he's not the prophesied hero. But the fact that an aimless 22 year-old drifter suddenly develops ice powers means that suddenly they all herald him as their savior? Even you seem to acknowledge ("despite having a maximum of only one noble bone in his body") that it's a bit of a stretch. I mean, maybe if they noticed him at a tender young age, before he impressed them all with his concentrated apathy, maybe. But at this age he's pretty much exactly what people would avoid in a savior.

It doesn't sell, is what I'm saying.

Here's how I'd sell this:

The king and his generals / operatives / goon squad / what-have-you actually have a pretty solid plan for throwing off the yoke of the hobgoblins. Heck, maybe the fact that they default to genocide, as Karl Aegis mentioned earlier, indicates that the humans have enough weaponry or a sufficiently airtight plan that the hobgoblin issue is trivial -- victory is more-or-less assured as long as they can get enough soldiers / conscripts / resistance-types to take the field.
There's just one problem: the prophecy. The king doesn't need a savior, since he's got this thing practically sewn up already, and odds are the prophecy is bunk anyway... but enough people believe it that he just can't get the manpower together or the morale high enough without someone who fits the prophecy. So he needs a figurehead, is what I'm saying.
His operatives start looking for someone who fits the bill, and presto: there's this dissolute, foreign-looking drunkard who recently started slinging around some showy ice-magic. Perfect. They spread the rumor that this guy is totally the town's savior, and gear up to put the real plan into motion and fix the problem while the frosty half-elf sits around looking saviorly. The people rally behind Sir Random Dude, war is declared, and the king is looking forward to having this whole mess wrapped up by the feast of St. Cuthbert.
So everything's set as long as Jonas performs his one job of being oblivious to the real process & relatively present. And then he skips town. And morale plummets. And the war is lost. All because the people didn't have their meaningless symbol to fight for.

Oh, and I'd put this guy down as CE. Petty evil is still evil, and he's definitely closer to chaotic than lawful.

I also wouldn't say there's a problem with having him in a game, but my currently-on-hiatus campaign includes a CE mutant gnoll gigolo, so clearly I'm a little more flexible than average regarding what characters are okay.

Hawkstar
2015-05-22, 06:43 PM
I'm not seeing any real 'evil' here, not even of the petty sort.

All he needs is a partner in crime/BFF.

Winter_Wolf
2015-05-22, 10:05 PM
I admit reading the OP, I thought to myself, "This character sounds like some species of bro." Depending on how you feel about them, there ya go for his alignment and whether you think he's a good or bad person. If the character were to start referring to himself in the third person as "J-Dog" I would think it was entirely in character. Unfortunately for J-Dog, I expect the wrath of the gods would catch up to him sooner rather than later, just to get him out of the campaign.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-22, 10:48 PM
Oh, yeah. This guy is pretty clearly CN, possibly CE, and definitely raises about a half dozen red flags. He has no guiding goals, no overarching desires, he's the definition of a murderhobo. As a DM, I would be incredibly wary of this character, simply because he's so unpredictable.

I don't know you as a roleplayer. You could be awesome, I don't know. But if I saw this character in the hands of some roleplayers I've seen, I'd read it as a declaration of intent to do whatever the player feels like doing at any given time, which is one of the more disruptive ways to ruin a campaign and everybody's fun.

I'd strongly advise you to put more ties in his background. Goals. Desires. Does he want to find his original family? Does he feel guilt about leaving the city? Hatred towards the creatures who sacked it? Shame about his gifts? Curiosity about, well, anything? As he is written, a DM will be hard-pressed to motivate him to do anything without basically slapping him in the face and pantsing him. There's nothing there to use.

Awesome analysis.

Yes, definitely give him something more than "slacker, hedonist, scofflaw". Come on, that's like a license to hijack a campaign. "While the rest of the party is talking to this caravan leader about a job or whatever, my guy is at the tavern trying to pick up women..."

Apparently he feels some glimmer of remorse if his ultimate (hidden) goal is to atone for his tacit failure. How does that affect his day-to-day activities -- is he more kindly to strangers in trouble? I suppose not if he skips out on bar tabs and women. Hmm... Maybe he's got a soft spot for orphans and hard-luck stories?

What's the potential character arc here? He travels around until he finds a "worthy" cause and then suddenly he sees the light. His heart grows three sizes, he loses his attention-deficit disorder and hatred of authority figures, and wins the day despite himself. Hopefully your DM is on board with all this.

Also, I doubt a sorcerer would be a "boor" unless his primary stat is really, really suboptimal for his class.

Reltzik
2015-05-22, 11:16 PM
I'd peg him as either CN or TN.

While his indifference to the plight of his hometown is bad, it's not as if this guy had any actual obligation to the people, or any expectation beyond a vague prophesy that he could help matters. This isn't "Yeah, I could help save your lives just by lifting my finger but I don't want to, so frell off." This is... "You want me to do WHAT? Against HOW MANY? That's suicide! And you did WHAT assuming I'd say yes? HELL NO!"

I figure if the town butcher isn't evil for just wanting to live life instead of fighting the hobgoblins, then neither is the 1st-level PC. He's not GOOD, but it falls short of evil.

The hopes of others that you did nothing to encourage and which you never agreed to doesn't make you a slave. Even if you devote yourself to good causes YOU get to pick which causes you support and which you don't.

Unless you're a lawful tool.

That said, I agree that "directionless, unmotivated, unable to commit to causes," is a bad formula for a PC that needs to be roped into the adventure somehow.

Mastikator
2015-05-23, 04:47 AM
[snip]He has frequently been known to decide that problems (like bar tabs or mysterious pregnancies) are other people's problems. [snip]

I've seen characters like this before and they always run away from the adventure and drag the rest of the party with them.

You'll have to crank up his curiosity to compensate, otherwise this will be a detriment to the game. PCs need to have something that drives them to adventure, to put their noses where it doesn't belong and get their hands dirty. That's what being an adventurer is.
I know it's not what you asked for but I think this matters more than alignment.