What are the problems with Vow of Poverty?

[CrazyYanmega]

I'm building a bunch of characters, and I really want to take Vow of Poverty for my Pseudodragon Dragonfire Adept, for the irony. What problems could I run into with this build? And which sourcebook is the Vow from? Any alternatives for my Pseudodragon to take that would provide similar buffs?

[Ruethgar]

Lookup any of the essential items lists and compare with what VoP lacks. The biggest one is flight, but you have that covered. With a lienient DM you can just take the Sculpt Self feat and pay for what VoP lacks with XP at appropriate levels.

[CrazyYanmega]

What is the Sculpt Self feat and what book is it from? I'm gonna buy a bunch of books today, and want to know what to keep an eye out for.

[Telonius]

Book of Exalted Deeds is the sourcebook for Vow of Poverty. There are a number of problems:

- Really steep roleplaying requirements
- Inability to own or use any magical items means many necessary things that can only be gotten through items will not be there. (Methods of flight are a particularly notorious omission)
- The abilities you do get can be replicated by magic items, with money still left over if you're using standard wealth by level
- Certain classes (Wizard particularly) are almost non-functional without possessions
- For many builds, you start running out of useful Bonus Exalted Feats fairly quickly.

There are some classes that aren't hurt quite as badly by a Vow of Poverty. Druid, Sorcerer, anything Incarnum, most Psionics, Warlock, and Dragonfire Adept are usually mentioned there. That sort of class either doesn't use Magic Items much/at all because of their class features (Druids without wilding clasps and Incarnum classes) or can mitigate the loss of items through native abilities (Warlock, Sorcerer, Psionics, DFA). Either way, they're still less powerful than a character who hadn't taken the vow. The difference is just a lot smaller.

[Necroticplague]

What is the Sculpt Self feat and what book is it from? I'm gonna buy a bunch of books today, and want to know what to keep an eye out for.

It's a feat that let's you spend XP to upgrade yourself by meditating for a few nights. Kinda like imaginary magic item crafting. The modification are called 'prestige races'. The feat and the system associated with it is in Dragon 304.

[bekeleven]

Excerpt from my Monkday Guide to Monks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338524):

Vow of Poverty
Vow of Poverty replaces equipment. Monks don’t use equipment, but still get all the benefits! Seems like a match made in celestia, right? Not quite. Vow of Poverty is conceptually broken and mechanically underpowered, and in addition, the monk has a very desperate need for some types of equipment that Vow of Poverty does not in any way mitigate.

Vow of Poverty is Broken


To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort...

A wizard with vow of poverty can’t own or use a spellbook. Wizards that take it have to hunt down an obscure Dragon Magazine ACF just to be able to prepare spells. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that restrictive.

And they’ll need them, since the wizard can’t use a door, so he has to dimension door into and out of his bathroom. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that poorly worded.

Monks can’t cast dimension door, so I guess they just get really good at holding it in.

More seriously, the mechanical benefits of Vow of Poverty are, at best, equal to the items you can afford with standard Wealth By Level as outlined in the Dungeon Master’s Guide. At worst, you’re getting less, and still dealing with restrictions. And don’t think that the restrictions are limited to “just wizards” or “just people that use doors.” If a friend is bleeding out, you can’t even pour his own healing potion down his throat. Because somehow doing so would make you a worse person?

Monks with Vow of Poverty are underpowered
Vow of Poverty doesn’t give enough to a monk to make up for the items the monk loses, and also fails to give monks certain powers that they desperately need.

The best part of Vow of Poverty is that it gives +8 to an ability score, a normally unreachable amount for an enhancement bonus. Unfortunately, this has two caveats: One is that you can equal that benefit from a +6 item and a +2 Tome, since a VoP character can’t gain inherent bonuses. The second is that the total ability bonuses are +8/+6/+4/+2, and a Monk needs 4 stats high, so one of your stats is ending only 2 points higher than it was at level 1. +4 and +6 to all four stats would be better for a monk than the given spread, and by level 20, wouldn’t be much of a drain on money either.

Other benefits of Vow of Poverty don’t equal the benefits of equipment. For instance, the resistance bonus to saves hits +3 at 17th level, which is rather late for a 9K equivalent ability. Deflection and natural armor to AC scales similarly slowly, easily replicated by items. The AC bonus is good, since bracers of armor are expensive, but not irreplaceable by any stretch and doesn’t allow for armor special abilities.

Which segues into the second point. The mechanical benefits of VoP, even if they come with good numbers occasionally, are inflexible and limited. You get Mind Shielding but not true Mind Blank. You get no effective form of healing, weapon or armor special abilities (except Kensai), access to tactical teleportation (Anklet of Translocation, Bolt Shirt, etc.), No access to the Monk’s Belt to increase damage and AC, no miss chances, no extra actions (Belt of Battle et al), and no flight. Flight is incredibly important in high-level games, on the same footing as the freedom of movement and true seeing that (thankfully) are granted. Without flight, the VoP monk is taking out his sling (“ordinary simple weapon”) and hoping he wanders into a pile of smooth round stones on the battlefield. Anyone high enough up is untouchable barring a monk with Far Shot or similar silly builds.

Conclusion
Either one of the two above issues would be enough of a reason not to take VoP on a monk. VoP works only in a select few builds, and those work mostly because they can afford to lose power and still be playable. This is not a decision a monk should make.

[Geddy2112]

What problems could I run into with this build?

The part where you die. In pathfinder it is even worse...as if monks did not suck enough.

[CrazyYanmega]

The part where you die. In pathfinder it is even worse...as if monks did not suck enough.

Wait, why would my Pseudodragon dying become a problem? Aside from the obvious.

[Taelas]

Monks do actually get dimension door... as a spell-like ability. Only once per day, but still.

[CrazyYanmega]

Could you go through a door with Vow of Poverty by having a teammate open it for you?

[Telonius]

At 5th level, you no longer have to eat or drink, so going to the bathroom probably isn't going to be a problem either. :smalleek:

[Oddman80]

If you are playing in a game where the DM's interpretation of Vow of Poverty is SO literal/restrictive that it results in your character not being allowed to open/close doors without breaking your vow, you likely have much bigger problems than the fact that you chose to take Vow of Poverty.

[Grooke]

And don’t think that the restrictions are limited to “just wizards” or “just people that use doors.” If a friend is bleeding out, you can’t even pour his own healing potion down his throat. Because somehow doing so would make you a worse person?

This is just wrong, using someone else's potion is part of the explicit exceptions.


You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf—you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly.


Also, "owning" is restricted to most possessions, but "using" is only limited to magic items. You could argue he couldn't use an enchanted door, but your average door is not beyond his capabilities.

[Necroticplague]

Could you go through a door with Vow of Poverty by having a teammate open it for you?

Yes.

Here are a few other things you can do to get around VOP restrictions:

1. Grafts are not items of their own, they just modify your statistics. So while you may not be able to carry the gold to pay for them, you can certainly benefit from them. So just have your party set aside 'your' portion of the treasure, and use that to buy grafts. Expensive.
2. Sculpt Self to copy magic items, as mentioned before.
3.Similarly to Grafts, Symbionts aren't possessions, they are creatures of their own. Pretty pricy, and most benefits are kinda minor unless you abuse the fact all symbionts have the Share Spell ability.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you are playing in a game where the DM's interpretation of Vow of Poverty is SO literal/restrictive that it results in your character not being allowed to open/close doors without breaking your vow, you likely have much bigger problems than the fact that you chose to take Vow of Poverty.
This. There's playing by the rules, and then there's being a **** for the sake of being a ****. This is not the first case.

[bekeleven]

Also, "owning" is restricted to most possessions, but "using" is only limited to magic items.

you must not own or use any material possessions
...Waihmwha?


If you are playing in a game where the DM's interpretation of Vow of Poverty is SO literal/restrictive that it results in your character not being allowed to open/close doors without breaking your vow, you likely have much bigger problems than the fact that you chose to take Vow of Poverty.
Let me slightly rephrase this:
If you're playing in a game where the DM refuses to rule Vow of Poverty so that you're allowed to open/close doors without breaking your vow, you likely have much bigger problems than the fact that you chose to take Vow of Poverty.

I suppose you could rule that doors aren't possessions, but the language otherwise seems pretty ironclad.

[P.F.]

- For many builds, you start running out of useful Bonus Exalted Feats fairly quickly.


This may be the biggest problem. There are workarounds for a lot of other issues, and I always feel like the slew of bonus feats granted for Vow of Poverty should mitigate the lack of equipments, but most of the Exalted feats totally blow. If your DM could be persuaded to allow you to write your own exalted feats (or slap an Exalted sticker on some existing feats), this makes the Vow substantially more playable.

And on the subject of feats, if I'm taking Vow of Poverty, I take take Vow of Peace as well; it offers a synergy with Vow of Poverty and helps shore up my defences a bit. In for a penny, in for a pound, as the saying goes.

[darksolitaire]

Let me slightly rephrase this:
If you're playing in a game where the DM refuses to rule Vow of Poverty so that you're allowed to open/close doors without breaking your vow, you likely have much bigger problems than the fact that you chose to take Vow of Poverty.

I guess it could work in kick in the door-style of gameplay.

[goto124]

I guess it could work in kick in the door-style of gameplay.

But can you touch the door to kick it open without losing VoP?

[dextercorvia]

A wizard with vow of poverty can’t own or use a spellbook. Wizards that take it have to hunt down an obscure Dragon Magazine ACF just to be able to prepare spells. Yes, the rules on equipment and items are that restrictive.

One of the alternate spellbook ideas in CA allows you to inscribe your spells on objects like slingstones and quarterstaves, which are simple weapons. I can't scribe any additional spells beyond those at level-up because of the cost, but you can have an very non-traditional spellbook.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One of the alternate spellbook ideas in CA allows you to inscribe your spells on objects like slingstones and quarterstaves, which are simple weapons. I can't scribe any additional spells beyond those at level-up because of the cost, but you can have an very non-traditional spellbook.
You can also tattoo some on your body, although you might need a buddy to donate the ink.

[Larrx]

The mechanical issues with VoP are easily researched. Many have been brought up in this very thread! And while I understand that it almost always makes sense to focus on RAW only on these forums, I think this is one of the few cases where table dynamics are critical. The DM has to be on board with your idea, and understand WBL. VoP is 'balanced' (it's actually as problematic as people before me have mentioned) assuming that the party is strictly adhering to WBL guidelines. I played in a game once and took VoP (it's really fun for roleplay!) and the DM dropped ~ 6x WBL for the PC's that could use loot. I quickly felt even more useless than a character with the vow typically does. So . . . work it out with OOG beforehand.

[Taelas]

The main problem with Vow of Poverty is that it decreases your versatility rather than increasing it. No matter what, a static number of abilities isn't going to make up for the plethora of options magical items give. And you have to follow an extremely strict code of conduct for the "privilege".

It can still be a useful feat to have, in a particular situation. If the game has below average WBL, it can even be great.

But for a game where power is measured in versatility, and the most powerful class is specifically the one that can get as much of it as possible... Yeah, no.

[ngilop]

the issue (I have at least) with Vow of Poverty is WoTC made it and said "ermagerd look at doze stats!" and said some crap about it being equiv to wealth by level.

Only, having a gib boost to your stats don't matter when 90% of the other things that magic item give you are non existant with Vow of Poverty.


I use and will always point to Kenneth's Vow of Poverty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12433473&postcount=15)as being the best fix I have ever seen on this site or any other site i've encountered.

[Chronos]

The two biggest problems with VoP are that there are some things it just doesn't give you, and you quickly run out of exalted feats worth taking. It seems to me that these problems are complementary: For each of the essential things the Vow doesn't give you, just create an exalted feat. Angelic wings are obvious enough, for instance. What else do we need?

[dextercorvia]

The two biggest problems with VoP are that there are some things it just doesn't give you, and you quickly run out of exalted feats worth taking. It seems to me that these problems are complementary: For each of the essential things the Vow doesn't give you, just create an exalted feat. Angelic wings are obvious enough, for instance. What else do we need?

A manner of dealing with DR (and scaling AC in general). Probably some way to negate or cure status ailments. Some of them are class specific, like handling the spellbook, divine focus, etc.

[Necroticplague]

ways of acquiring miss chance.
ways of dealing with incorporeal or ethereal foes.
more immunities. The VOP gives you a few, but not nearly as many as I find you usually end up with from magic items.
active abilities. Some kind of thing to substitute for loss of spell completion/activation items like scrolls, potion, wands, and staves (maybe a few/day or restorative SLAs?).
Utility. Magic items let you do more things, not just improve what you can already do.

[bekeleven]

Healing items on tap, tactical teleportation at low levels.

Giant piles of immunities (particularly real mind blank) at high levels.

[dextercorvia]

active abilities. Some kind of thing to substitute for loss of spell completion/activation items like scrolls, potion, wands, and staves (maybe a few/day or restorative SLAs?).



Healing items on tap,

Just a nitpick, but unless you are in an all VoP party, you can still benefit from these items as used by other party members. So, if you set up your party loot arrangement (in a 4 man party) such that everything you get is divided into 5ths (with one share being for party restoratives), your healing (from items) won't come out of someone else's WBL (in fact, it kind of comes out of yours, if you assume an even distribution of need of the party restoratives).

Like everything, it is up to DM adjudication, but it should be legit with VoP.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Doesn't really work, remember that as per VoP you need to donate whatever treasure you would normally get.

[Necroticplague]

Doesn't really work, remember that as per VoP you need to donate whatever treasure you would normally get.

Not true. The Vow itself only says you can't own things not on the whitelist. The part about donating is both

1.Not actually a part of the vow itself
2.Prefaced by a 'should', not a 'must' or 'needs to'.

[dextercorvia]

Doesn't really work, remember that as per VoP you need to donate whatever treasure you would normally get.

And your party as a whole decides what treasure you would normally get. There is no rule in D&D that parties must divide all treasure by the number of PCs and hand out accordingly. Having 'the party' count as a loot earning member is a fairly common arrangement, even in non VoP games.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon with Vow of Poverty is even more odd than Dwarf with Vow of Abstinence

Pseudodragons have a life span of 10 to 15 years. Like dragons, they are attracted to bright, shiny objects.
http://pre11.deviantart.net/8e63/th/pre/f/2015/110/c/5/little_dragon_s_big_hoard_by_hello_hochee-d8qg1um.png

[bekeleven]

2.Prefaced by a 'should', not a 'must' or 'needs to'.
Aah yes, the point where you know your argument is reasonable: The book only tells you not to do it, not that you can't.

Anyway, healing myself with healing belt = standard action.

Someone else healing me with a healing belt: Move up to the front where I'm standing getting hurt, suck an AoO, standard action to heal me, move back.

A decade ago I played a fighter with vow of poverty. Me and my GM, who never read more rules than we had to, decided that I could basically use as much mundane equipment as I needed to effectively fight evil. VoP + Greatsword + Chain Shirt = pretty good at low levels!

[dextercorvia]

Someone else healing me with a healing belt: Move up to the front where I'm standing getting hurt, suck an AoO, standard action to heal me, move back.

I'm not talking about in-combat healing. That is not the intended use of most of those items.

[bekeleven]

I'm not talking about in-combat healing. That is not the intended use of most of those items.

The whole point of the healing belt is that it goes up to 4D8, can be used by anyone, provokes no attacks and is affordable by level 2.

You won't be using it for IC healing at level 10, but for a while it occupies a fine niche.

[Necroticplague]

Aah yes, the point where you know your argument is reasonable: The book only tells you not to do it, not that you can't.

Tone is kinda hard to detect over the internet, so can you clarify whether you''re trying to be sarcastic (I.e, you beleive I'm wrong), or actually agreeing?