Familiars and Feats

[panaikhan]

I am unfamiliar (no pun intended) with what I call 'advanced' familiars, i.e. ones beyond simple animal companions. I am, however, due to acquire an intelligent familiar (INT 8) soon.
I keep seeing / hearing (in the optimization section) about familiars gaining feats if they have a suitable INT score. What does it need to be, when would they get them, and are there limitations (other than prerequisites) in what they can gain?

[the_david]

Familiars don't gain feats, because they don't gain hit dice. There are some feats that give the owners of a familiar benefits. (Like Improved Familiar.)

You might want to look into the Familiar Folio. It has some extra options like new animals (and other types) to choose from, familiar archetypes and some feats that wil make your familiar even better.

[Psyren]

You can replace their starting feat(s) but that's about it. Only animal companions and eidolons get more.

[panaikhan]

Technically, they gain HD as their master does - but i guess that's a liberal interpretation of the RAW.

[Red Fel]

Familiars can get archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes), actually. Not necessarily as good as feats, but possibly useful, depending on your party composition.

[Yanisa]

Technically, they gain HD as their master does - but i guess that's a liberal interpretation of the RAW.

They don't gain HD, they are threated as if having the master's HD when effects (Like for example color spray) demand it.

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.





You can replace their starting feat(s) but that's about it. Only animal companions and eidolons get more.

Really? I only could find that in context of making your own familiar, not for just any old familiar.

[panaikhan]

OK, thanks people for your input, and giving me some things to check out.
If I can't give it feats, I think I'll go for the 'protector' archetype. a DC10 to increase my AC? Yes please.

[Psyren]

Really? I only could find that in context of making your own familiar, not for just any old familiar.

It applies both to building one wholly from scratch and to tweaking one that has an existing entry:


With your Gamemaster's approval, though, the statistics of an existing familiar can be repurposed to approximate the perfect familiar for your character.

[Yanisa]

OK, thanks people for your input, and giving me some things to check out.
If I can't give it feats, I think I'll go for the 'protector' archetype. a DC10 to increase my AC? Yes please.

An Eldritch Guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/eldritch-guardian-fighter-archetype) is a fighter archetypes that gets a Familiar, but more importantly: he gets to share ALL his combat feats with his familiar. Tag on Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) to give you and your familiar additional combat feats up to ALL the combat feats at level 20.

There you go, feats for your familiar. Take on the Mauler Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/mauler-familiar-archetype) for extra familiar battle power.


It applies both to building one wholly from scratch and to tweaking one that has an existing entry:

That is still in the context of making your own familiar. If you want for example a duck familiar, the game lacks one. But you can tweak a chicken to look like a duck. :smalltongue: I guess in that same train you could get away with a familiar with just different feats, but not for the purpose of making a different animal, it is still a GM call and if he is up for it anything can happen.

I though you meant there was a more solid method to swapping out feats beyond GM permission.

[Psyren]

I though you meant there was a more solid method to swapping out feats beyond GM permission.

No, that's what I meant. But it's not like you could do that in 3.5 either so I don't see the big deal.

[Yanisa]

No, that's what I meant. But it's not like you could do that in 3.5 either so I don't see the big deal.

I was looking for fun familiars with the Mauler archetype, but some just have horrible feats for a combatant (foxes get skill focus perception). It's not a big deal, but I rather avoid GM permission unless I feel I have too because the rules are stupid (like getting Improved Familiars to qualify for the Mauler Archetype). Asking permission because the feat doesn't suit my goals is a bit trivial use of a bag of chips. :smalltongue:

[Hrugner]

you could always make a homunculus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/homunculus) with high hit dice and gain feats that way, couldn't you?

[Psyren]

Yanisa - I got home and took a look through my Animal Archive copy. I found stronger language for you around swapping the starting feat:


Feats that are meant for familiars can be switched out for a familiar's default feats (as listed in the familiar's statistics) if the familiar meets the prerequisites. Such feat replacements must be made when the PC first acquires a new familiar, and-like all new feats from supplemental sources-the new feats should be approved by the GM before being integrated into play.

It still mentions GM approval, but equates it to the level of approval for any splatbook. Also, "first acquires a new familiar" means whenever you gain that class feature, so you can get it as soon as you get a familiar without having to build one from scratch.


you could always make a homunculus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/homunculus) with high hit dice and gain feats that way, couldn't you?

Yes, but it doesn't have all the familiar benefits (e.g. share spells), and doing this can get very expensive. A homunculus is also very expensive to replace if lost, since you basically have to rebuild it.

[Hrugner]

Yes, but it doesn't have all the familiar benefits (e.g. share spells), and doing this can get very expensive. A homunculus is also very expensive to replace if lost, since you basically have to rebuild it.

I've seen where it says they can be improved familiars, and where it says their HD can be improved; I haven't seen anything saying those two options are mutually exclusive though. The price is prohibitive, but if there's no prohibition against improving the homunculus familiar, then I think the full feat loadout should be worth looking at.

[Yanisa]

Yanisa - I got home and took a look through my Animal Archive copy. I found stronger language for you around swapping the starting feat:
It still mentions GM approval, but equates it to the level of approval for any splatbook. Also, "first acquires a new familiar" means whenever you gain that class feature, so you can get it as soon as you get a familiar without having to build one from scratch.

Even better, Animal Archive has Familiar Feats, as in feats only familiars can take. I thought those existed but the Familiar Feats in the Familiar Folio must be taken by the master of the Familiar. Maybe I can get the GM to accept Familiar Feats as Familiar Feats. :smalltongue:
Either thanks for pointing that out, I turned Familiar Folio upside down but never thought to look at Animal Archive because I thought that was only for animal companions.


Yes, but it doesn't have all the familiar benefits (e.g. share spells), and doing this can get very expensive. A homunculus is also very expensive to replace if lost, since you basically have to rebuild it.

The only thing the feat Improved Familiar takes away is "speak with master" and "speak with animals of it's kind" and the improved familiar type doesn't change to magical beast. All other abilities are kept and unchanged. Also there is no mention of it in the Homunculus stats on the pfsrd20 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/homunculus). I couldn't find the book that introduces Homunculus as familiars (unless it is Ultimate Magic, but that book only adds Homunculus to the list, it doesn't really talk about it), so as far as I see, Homunculus do get share spells and such.

Worse is the alchemist archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/homunculist-alchemist-archetype) thats gets a Homunculus, they don't need a feat and without doubt get all familiar abilities. They might even get the Homunculus free without any limitations and because it's a level 1 ability saying you must pay for it means you cannot get your level 1 class feature until like level 3. :smalltongue:
You could also interpret it as you get an animal or vermin with the stats of the base creature, only it's type is construct. Messy archetype.


I've seen where it says they can be improved familiars, and where it says their HD can be improved; I haven't seen anything saying those two options are mutually exclusive though. The price is prohibitive, but if there's no prohibition against improving the homunculus familiar, then I think the full feat loadout should be worth looking at.

Just remember, although the Homunculus has no Hit Die cap, you can build a Homunculus with as many hit die as you want, once you want to to upgrade it you only add 50% more HD of it's base created HD.

Construct Modifications (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs#TOC-Basic-Modifications):

Because a construct’s size is limited, a Hit Dice modification cannot increase its size. Therefore Hit Dice modification can never increase the base construct’s Hit Dice beyond 50% of its total HD.

Which means at some point you are going to ditch your current Homunculus and take a new one, a better one. It can cost a lot of gold. However if you have infinite gold, Homunculus can become one of the most overpowered familiars one could have. If only Improved Familiar could take the Mauler Archetype... :smallamused:

[Hrugner]

bleh, I never noticed that only emissary and sage were available to improved familiars. That's a little disappointing.

[Molosse]

So I have a question that perhaps one of the more rules-savvy lads or lasses could answer for me:

If I take a 1/X (Spirit Binder) Wizard/(Eldritch Guardian) Fighter would the familiar from the SB abilities in any way stack with the familiar from EG?

For example:

I) Will the Soulbound Familiar ability and progression stack with the Familiar ability from Eldritch Guardian?
So would a 1/1 SB.Wiz (With the "Loved Ones" Favored Class chosen as Paladin for example) and EG.Fighter possess a familiar with BaB +2?

II) Further would the Familiar gain extra feats at character level 5,10 etc ala' Lost Talents?

Thanks for the answers.

[Yanisa]

I) Will the Soulbound Familiar ability and progression stack with the Familiar ability from Eldritch Guardian?
So would a 1/1 SB.Wiz (With the "Loved Ones" Favored Class chosen as Paladin for example) and EG.Fighter possess a familiar with BaB +2?

Yes and no.

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
Emphasis mine. That refers to this table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar#TOC-Familiar-Ability-Descriptions) and any familiar archetypes.

However, the BaB and saves are based of your Spirit Binder levels and only your Spirit Binder level (also see answer II.)

A soulbound familiar has the base attack bonus and base saving throws of the loved one's favored class (using the spirit binder's level as its level)
Emphasis mine.


II) Further would the Familiar gain extra feats at character level 5,10 etc ala' Lost Talents?

Nope, Lost Talents is a class ability and class abilities only grow with levels in the specific class that granted the ability.

Paraphrased from the last paragraph under multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Multiclassing), emphasis mine.

class abilities [...] are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

I do agree this is a very RAW strict ruling that doesn't make a lot of sense. In essence Lost Talents is a familiar ability, so you could see it as possibly growing. Talk it over with your DM if you seriously want to build this, he might see it as a familiar ability too. Then again you still won't get the BaB and Saves, hard to get around that without straight homeruling.

[Psyren]

I actually missed that Homunculi are legal choices for Improved Familiar (I had looked at the Homunculus entry but not the feat.) So my bad on that one, it would appear that you can get a homunculus of any HD at level 7 as a familiar. Your best bet is probably to, at a high level, retrain your Improved Familiar feat to later in your progression and build a new one with your higher WBL.