casting spells in wildshape while flying

[Hiro Quester]

When a druid with Natural Spell feat is wildshaped into a flying creature, let's say an eagle with a fly speed of 80 and average maneuverability, are they committed to using their move action to actually move (at least half their flight speed), since they have only average maneuverability can't hover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions)?

Hovering would seem to take more activity and energy for flying creatures with large bird wings (so much it's impossible for them), and gliding on the wind takes almost no effort at all and should be a free action.

But it seems that according to RAW, this is the opposite of how things work. One needs to be able to hover to use a move action to direct a spell (e.g. flaming sphere), command a summoned creature (let's say a giant eagle to ignore the language barrier issues), or "push" one's animal companion. All these move actions would be impossible unless one foregoes taking a standard action.

And in eagle wildshape, flying over the enemy, would it really be impossible to cast a summons (drop a bear into melee)? (In bird wildshape one uses talons for the somatic components of a spell.)

Can this be right, that a bird like this cannot take a full round action since it cannot hover?

Would that mean that an eagle, while flying, can never take a full attack without stalling and falling to the ground immediately after? And eagle could never take a full attack in two successive rounds, then.

It would seem sensible to rule that taking a full round action or alternative move action while gliding would require a concentration check or something like that (equivalent of casting defensively). But banning them altogether seems excessive.

Sidenote:
In a core game, I can't find any flying whiledhape forms that are small or medium sized (available before 8th level) that have good or perfect flight maneuverability. (Desmodu Hunting bat is available in some games but not in core.) Am I missing something?

These two combine to make the tactic of airborne artillerist more difficult. One can't simply cast flaming sphere and call lightning then glide, circling over the battlefield, directing the sphere (move) and calling down lightning bolts (standard), or dropping summoned giant crocodiles into combat (full round).

Am I reading this right?

[Venger]

You are not reading this right. You can take two move actions in a round. there are no small/med flying animal forms with good or average maneuverability that you can take before lvl 8 in a core-only game.


you can absolutely do all the things you talked about, and they make up a number of popular strategies to play druid. just get up really high if for whatever reason you need to take an entire fullround action and can't move in the same round so you can fall the 150ft without hitting the ground. resume moving next round and you're all good.

it shouldn't be a problem since if you're in a core only game (yuck) you have very little to spend your feats on. you've expressed interest in summoning, so you'll probably be rapid summoning. aside from the summon x liness, there's very few other druid spells that are fullrounds, so it shouldnt come up all that much.

I'd put in the mandatory rant about how core-only games exacerbate balance issues since weak classes can't help themselves keep up to T1s like druid, emphasizing the power disparity, but you can find out about that on your own from looking around the board. if your DM is doing core-only for "balance," I'm sure you can find a number of more well-written explanations on this board. if you guys are doing this due to other reasons such as availability or playing on expert mode, then ignore me.

[Hiro Quester]

Falling is a free action. I hadn't thought about it like that.

But if you fall, you take the next turn to recover, and have to beat a DC 20 reflex save or fall another 300 ft. That sounds risky, since these birds don't have a very high dex.

I guess I'll have to wait for 8th level to be a flying artillerist. I'll have to perch in the enemy ship's rigging wildshaped as an albatross, or in a nearby tree as an eagle, and hide there to do this kind of thing until then.

Our game is mostly core (also PH II, DMG I I& Stormwrack). DM's call. We had just finished a super-powered all books open campaign. I think it was about simplifying play and limiting the number of books to learn and manage, rather than any concerns with balance. That's a different conversation that I've already had, though.

Edit: I wish I had rapid summoning. That's a wizard ACF not a feat, though. Unless i missed something?
Further edit: oh, you must mean rapid spell metamagic. That might be worth considering. Not sure it's the best use of a feat, though.

[Venger]

Falling is a free action. I hadn't thought about it like that.

But if you fall, you take the next turn to recover, and have to beat a DC 20 reflex save or fall another 300 ft. That sounds risky, since these birds don't have a very high dex.

I guess I'll have to wait for 8th level to be a flying artillerist. I'll have to perch in the enemy ship's rigging wildshaped as an albatross, or in a nearby tree as an eagle, and hide there to do this kind of thing until then.

Our game is mostly core (also PH II, DMG I I& Stormwrack). DM's call. We had just finished a super-powered all books open campaign. I think it was about simplifying play and limiting the number of books to learn and manage, rather than any concerns with balance. That's a different conversation that I've already had, though.

Edit: I wish I had rapid summoning. That's a wizard ACF not a feat, though. Unless i missed something?
Further edit: oh, you must mean rapid spell metamagic. That might be worth considering. Not sure it's the best use of a feat, though.



okay, well good luck.

all right. rapid spell's in complete divine apparently. if you're gonna be a dedicated summoner yes, otherwie, probably not.

[eggynack]

all right. rapid spell's in complete divine apparently. if you're gonna be a dedicated summoner yes, otherwie, probably not.
Don't think it's even necessarily all that good on a summoning build. You can't rapid up SNA's that are spontaneously cast, first of all, which is a big deal, and applying metamagic adjustment to summoning spells tends to be intrinsically problematic. On that latter point, if you think about it, using a +1 metamagic is at least halving the power of whatever summon it's being used on, as you can always use the 1d3 option, and it's probably having an even bigger impact than that. Thus, a +1 metamagic has to be at least a doubling of power, and the timing at work here might not get you there.

As for the core question at work here, casting spells in the air with only average maneuverability isn't impossible, but it's not great either. You're definitely limited when it comes to summoning, but, y'know, summoning is definitely not all you can do. Most spells are a standard action, after all, and don't require maintenance. Even summons and the companion don't really require extra work, because summons attack enemies without any input and applying extra input is difficult, and bonus tricks mean that you're usually not going to have to push in combat. Good maneuverability is a big upgrade where this stuff is concerned, but lacking it isn't the end of the world. Just make your plans with that limitation in mind, and things should work out well enough for the two levels where this is an issue.

[Crake]

An often forgotten rule is that a spell with 1 round casting time can be split up between two standard actions over two turns. So you could move to maintain flight, begin summoning, then next round, use your standard action to finish summoning and move again to maintain flight

[Hiro Quester]

An often forgotten rule is that a spell with 1 round casting time can be split up between two standard actions over two turns. So you could move to maintain flight, begin summoning, then next round, use your standard action to finish summoning and move again to maintain flight

Huh. I had no idea about that rule, Crake. Do you know where it is written? I cant see it on a scan through the section on Actions in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) in the SRD.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Right here:

Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

It's a standard action, mentioned just below Total Defense, and just above the Move Actions header.

[Hiro Quester]

Right here:

Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

It's a standard action, mentioned just below Total Defense, and just above the Move Actions header.

Oh. There it is. Thanks!