Card Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg [Archive]

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Androgeus

2015-05-22, 08:19 PM

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png
All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

Well, hello, hello, hello and good day to you here at Giant in the Playground! This is the 21st official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander Commander, or any other awesome Magical exploits.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We would love to bring more players in, and help you get started!

On Card Spoilers: Currently as far as I understand most posters here don't mind having the next set of cards spoiled. So we can post them. However if someone request cards to be spoiled we will probably oblige them.

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.

Note: This is horribly out of date.
The Deck Gallery:

Mirrinus' "Norg'Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.

Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White ControlDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.

Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).

Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:

MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:

Maho-Tsukai's The Black Plague, a deck for multiplayer
Deck:
Lands:
3x Cabal Coffers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205421)
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=131005)
20x Swamp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=259283)

Creatures:
2x Pestilence Demon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193431)
4x Stuffy Doll (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116724)
4x Cemetary Gate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2914)
4x Reassembling Skeleton (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226565)

Enchantments:
4x Pestilence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21149)
4x Circle of Affliction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126803)

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Consume Spirit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244249)
4x Diabolic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221519)
1x Demonic Tutor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202628)
2x Bubbling Muck (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15179)
4x Dark Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=221510)
1x Culling the Weak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=6085)

Description:
This is one deck that will make you absolutely hated in multiplayer. It's a mono-black deck that focuses on using the combination of Pestilence + Circle of Affliction (set to Black) to lock down the game by wiping the board every turn and kill your opponent(s) all at the same time.

This deck acts very similar to the old school W/B decks that pared Pestilence with Circle of Protection: Black and Pro Black creatures like White Knight. However, due to the printing of cards like Reassembling Skeleton, Stuffy Doll and Circle of Affliction white this deck no longer needs white to run properly. Mono Black now has enough cards to emulate the white cards that this kind of deck used to rely on and by using only black you have more mana to pour into your main win condition, pestilence

As for how the deck should be played, it's really a combination of combo and control, leaning heavily towards combo. As stated before, pestilence is your main wincon, as it can burn all players for damage continually. However, to prevent your own death, circle of affliction(set to black) is used in tandem with pestilence, the one life gained offsetting the burn from pestilence, while burning your opponent more in the process. As a result you goal should be to assemble this combo as soon as possible, using your defensively-minded creatures and removal from pestilence itself and twin consume spirits to stall out while you use your various tutors to assemble all the cards you need.

The real beauty of this deck, though, is that pestilence also hits all creatures, meaning that each time you burn your opponent your also wiping his board clean of threats, essentially locking down any deck that tries to win with creatures. However, pestilence dies when you have no creatures, so you have to play creatures that can survive the enchantment. Cemetery Gate has protection from black. Reassembling Skeleton can revive himself after pestilence wipes him off the board. Stuffy Doll is indestructible....and as mentioned before all of them are strong defensive walls that can stall for time if you don't have a pestilence in play.

As for the rest of the cards, most of them are devoted to gaining tons of black mana that can be poured into pestilence. One thing this deck tries to do is maximizing Pestilence by providing lots of ways to gain extra mana to pour into it. Dark Ritual is an old standby that's great for this kind of deck while bubbling muck essentially doubles your mana for a turn. This deck features the infamous all-star of black mana gain, Cabal Coffers which can make ridiculous amounts of mana, and Urborg makes this even more ridiculous. Culling the Weak is like a stronger dark ritual with a drawback....that happens to play well with Reassembling Skeleton.

Consume Spirit provides a "finisher" as well as a way to pad your life from the times you may have had to use pestilence to wipe the board without a circle of affliction to prevent it's self-burn. It can also double as removal in a pinch, too. Also, if you find that you just need something really big and scary to beat face with, Pestilence demon comes ready to serve you, and can double as pestilence #5-6 too.

The main thing you should remember in this deck is that while the combo is nice, you should not be a slave to it. If you have a pestilence in play but no circle you should not be afraid to wipe the board and eat some damage yourself. Losing a bit of life to end the thread of a creature hoard coming your way is a worthwhile trade, and one that could save your life in the long run.

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with or help suggest other cards to increase the awesomeness contained in your 60 (or more) cards.
This list has been maintained by Squark, tgva, Johnny Blade, Shas, and Duos in the past.
Also, if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.

previous thread: Magic the Gathering XX: DRAAAAAAAAGONS!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?378996-Magic-the-Gathering-XX-KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANS!!!)

Occasional Sage

2015-05-23, 07:30 AM

Harrow is fantastic at this, and Sakura-Tribe Elder is also very good. Rampant Growth is decent. Those are the main ones that work with basics, I think, as Kodama's Reach and Cultivate aren't what you're looking for without Summer Bloom. As for avoiding decking, just stick one Elixir of Immortality in your deck. You'll draw it eventually, play it, crack it, and you'll never run out of cards.

Nature's Lore is a strictly better Rampant Growth if you don't mind being limited to finding a Forest.

Krosan Wayfarer is a 1-drop green 1/1 with "sacrifice: put a land into play."

Elvish Pioneer is a 1-drop green 1/1 with "When Elvish Pioneer comes into play, you may put a basic land card from your hand into play tapped."

Diligent Farmhand is a 1-drop green 1/1 with "1G, Sacrifice Diligent Farmhand: Search your library for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Then shuffle your library."

Wood Elves is a 2G 1/1 with "When Wood Elves comes into play, search your library for a Forest card and put that card into play."

One with Nature is a G enchant creature with "Whenever enchanted creature deals combat damage to a player, you may search your library for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped." Stick it on a U creature with flying and/or unblockable.

Those are probably the available options for $1 or less.

Thanks for those!

Elixir is one I hadn't seen until after my post, I've slipped one into the build and sighed with relief.

One with Nature is great! Am I parsing the rules correctly, that if I enchant a Double Strike creature I'd pull two lands per turn, one for the First Strike damage and one for the standard?

Ninjaman

2015-05-23, 07:54 AM

One with Nature is great! Am I parsing the rules correctly, that if I enchant a Double Strike creature I'd pull two lands per turn, one for the First Strike damage and one for the standard?

That is correct.

Sith_Happens

2015-05-23, 10:37 AM

Ninjaman

2015-05-23, 12:13 PM

Grytorm

2015-05-23, 06:39 PM

Lord Ruby34

2015-05-24, 11:21 AM

Grytorm

2015-05-24, 11:47 AM

I've thought about that. And I might go either way. Sadistic Hypnotist is probably the better card but Mind Slash is less likely to die right away and won't draw quite as much anger from the other players.

Also I just found a card from Conspiracy that I might run over Fecundity. Fecundity is better but can benefit opponents just as much and is as much of a huge target.

Deathreap Ritual (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382248)

Tesla_pasta

2015-05-26, 11:52 AM

So I have started to play a bit of EDH. And so I am working on my Prosh Deck. Seems fun. I should post my list and what I plan to add so I can ask if it seems to mean.

What I am going to add (The ones at the end will come later. The early ones sooner.)

Black Sun's Zenith
Mind Slash
Vandalblast
Ashnod's Altar
Attrition
Soul of Innistrad
Beseech the Queen
Praetor's Council
Kodoma's Reach
Awakening Zone
Anger
Bojuka Bog

Lightning Greaves
Craterhoof Behemoth
Avenger of Zendikar
Fauna Shaman
Grave Titan

Are you modding the Pre-con? If not, you should link to the full list.
thunderhoof behemoth is a good mini-hoof, as are triumph of the hordes and overwhelming stampede
Proosh LOVES gravepact and dictate of erebos
acidic slime is all around good
oralce of mul daya and her little sister courser of kruphix are both good inclusions.
green suns zenith and chord of calling are both fantastic.
shamanic revelation is nice with all of prossh's tokens.
eternal witness is amazing in everything.

EDIT for grammar mistakes

Ninjaman

2015-05-27, 04:05 PM

Today I played one of the best draft decks I have ever played and will probably ever play (outside cube of course)

Etched Champion
Cranial Plating
Lodestone Myr
3x Frogmite
2x Myr Enforcer
4x Thoughtcast
2x Rusted Relic
Blinding Souleater
Cathodion
2x Copper Carapace
Dispatch
Faerie Mechanist
3x Glint Hawk Idol
Gust-Skimmer
Qumulox
3 Darksteel Citadel
8 Island
4 Plains

All games I boarded Cathodion out for Terashi's Grasp

Sith_Happens

2015-05-29, 07:46 PM

So after finally tallying them all up, it seems that after playing (or at least entering) $175 worth of MM15 limited altogether last weekend I went home with somewhere just north of $300 worth of cards.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xOamlzKgTQZSE/200_s.gif

Fable Wright

2015-05-29, 11:12 PM

I'm planning on entering a Modern SCG Open soonish, and I was looking for any help or advice that people could give me.

The deck as it stands:

4x Aether Vial (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370514)
3x Temur Ascendancy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386692)
3x Collected Company (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394519)
3x Stubborn Denial (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386673)
3x Lightning Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397722)
2x Faithless Looting (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389512)
1x Echoing Truth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370394)

4x Tarmogoyf (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?printed=false&multiverseid=397682)
4x Leatherback Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197856)
3x Skaab Ruinator (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=230780)
3x Vexing Sphinx (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122071)
2x Imaginary Pet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=84612)
2x Myr Superion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194275)
2x Illusory Angel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383274)

2x Island (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73951)
2x Forest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73946)
1x Mountain (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73958)
4x Copperline Gorge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=209408)
2x Breeding Pool (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366291)
1x Stomping Grounds (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366232)
1x Steam Vents (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253682)
2x Flooded Grove (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153481)
3x Scalding Tarn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190393)
2x Misty Rainforest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190413)
1x Wooded Foothills (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386729)
1x Hinterland Harbor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=241988)

Sideboard:
3x Obstinate Baloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205075)
3x Anger of the Gods (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373604)
2x Feed the Clan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386535) (Yes, burn is that bad a matchup)
2x Counterflux (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253524)
2x Echoing Truth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370394)
2x Ancient Grudge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=235600)
1x Flex slot, currently Phyrexian Metamorph (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214375)

A few notes:
1. The deck runs creatures that it can't reliably cast. This is what Vexing Sphinx and Faithless Looting are for.
2. This deck is build to use Aether Vial or Collected Company to put big creatures directly on the battlefield, which stabilize and take over the game. Temur Ascendancy turns this up to 11.
3. Skaab Ruinator is good in this deck. In grindy matchups, he is king. He is also terrifying off the Collected Company.
4. I would like to find room for more cycling out bad cards in this deck, but the third Faithless Looting is very bad. I would also like to find some way to include more sorceries in the list to reliably make Goyf a 4/5 without Artifact discard/kill, but I can't. Find. Room.
5. Landbase is solid. I need 3 lands to operate, and 4 to win. Current configuration usually gets me the colors I need when I need them, despite needing 1RR, GGG, 1UU, and RUG, depending on the circumstances, by turn 3.
6. Imaginary Pet is in there for two reasons. One, it's a fantastic surprise blocker off an Aether Vial. Two, once Temur Ascendancy is on the battlefield, it kickstarts the engine beautifully. That said, I could definitely see going down to 1 of them, though I'm reluctant to cut them out altogether.
7. I have tried the list with less creatures. It does not work. Companies fail, and Ascendancy just whiffs on more land. I can't go below 20, and I would like to go higher, but can't find room in the list.

Any help or advice would be appreciated, especially regarding notes 4 and 7: if anyone can find room for more/better creatures or sorceries, their help would be much, much appreciated. As would advice on/help with/sideboard tech against the Abzan and Elf matchups.

EDIT: Epochrasite didn't show up in Gatherer search. Immediately bringing it for testing.

Sith_Happens

2015-05-30, 12:27 AM

2x Feed the Clan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386535) (Yes, burn is that bad a matchup)

This should really be telling you all you need to know about the deck, but if not here's a hint:

https://38.media.tumblr.com/ac0e970695272ac10cd12145d6fbdac4/tumblr_n5uace7MCb1tw5kw4o1_500.gif
Your main engine comes out turn three and taps you out. With the right opening hand (Vial + Superion) that's also the first turn you can do anything else in your deck worth doing besides Bolting something or dropping a Goyf, but it looks like most games it's going to be turn four before you even really start playing. The rule of thumb in Modern is that by the end of turn four you need to have either won the game or made your eventual victory inevitable (or at least extremely probable). Putting your first threat on the board only counts as either of those things if it's Emrakul or Griselbrand.

You need either ramp to speed you up by a turn or a lot more disruption to keep your opponents from doing things while you durdle around the first 2-4 turns.

Grytorm

2015-05-30, 12:51 AM

Maybe Experiment One as an additional one drop?

Fable Wright

2015-05-30, 01:18 AM

Your main engine comes out turn three and taps you out. With the right opening hand (Vial + Superion) that's also the first turn you can do anything else in your deck worth doing besides Bolting something or dropping a Goyf, but it looks like most games it's going to be turn four before you even really start playing.
...Actually, no. Turn 3 is usually a Leatherback Baloth or Vexing Sphinx for stabilization unless I have vial + appropriate 2-drop, when I might go for the Ascendancy instead, coming down with a backbreaking 2-for-1 followed by a stream of similar painful trades for the rest of the game. The 4-drop that wins the game is Collected Company fetching a grab bag of usually at least 8/9 size, occasionally 10/12 or bigger, some of it flying. Temur Ascendancy comes in after that as a finisher when something has gone wrong and the game goes late, and usually hits more than a few targets. Also? Goyf is still one of the best stabilizers in the format, comes down turn 2. Imaginary Pet, to a lesser extent, can fill this role for that turn, as can Epochrasite.

The deck is usually quite good against Twin builds, tempo RUG, UWR, Fish, Tarmoffinity (no testing with regular affinity yet, sadly), Cruel Control, and some Tron builds pre-board. Bad matchups were just Abzan and burn for a while, until I discovered Elves, which I haven't had much post-board testing with, but seems bad.

You need either ramp to speed you up by a turn or a lot more disruption to keep your opponents from doing things while you durdle around the first 2-4 turns.
Yes, I got that, thanks. Hence tuning the build over the previous version to be faster, and the inclusion of enough disruption elements to survive at least the first Splinter Twin and initial onslaught of Infect/other aggro decks. I definitely believe Epochrasite will help here, but aside from that, If you had more specific advice, would you mind sharing, please?

Maybe Experiment One as an additional one drop?
It's... really bad in this shell. Like, really bad. I'm not playing more than one creature per turn on turns 2-3, and on those turns, it's outclassed by everything I need it to block. Also, if I get the vial turn 1, it's coming down turn 2 as a 1/1 and that... makes it much worse. Lategame it's just atrocious. It also undercuts the primary strength of the deck, making the use of cheap red removal painful to other players. Giving them an easy target for bolts is something I very much don't want to do.

Sith_Happens

2015-05-30, 04:52 AM

The deck is usually quite good against Twin builds, tempo RUG, UWR, Fish, Tarmoffinity (no testing with regular affinity yet, sadly), Cruel Control, and some Tron builds pre-board. Bad matchups were just Abzan and burn for a while, until I discovered Elves, which I haven't had much post-board testing with, but seems bad.

The bolded are the decks that are actually going to be relevant at a major event, with Tron underlined because there are a lot of variants you could be referring to but RG is the one you actually need to be testing against. Jund is also on an upswing and if Abzan is one of your bad matchups then Jund will wreck you hard. I'm not sure if Zoo is a thing right now, but if it is then it's more than aggroey enough to likely be your bane.

If you had more specific advice, would you mind sharing, please?

First off I'd go up to three Imaginary Pets. Now that I think about it it makes for an excellent turn two blocker to blunt an aggro assault. On the flip side I am actually not liking Goyf in this deck at all. With no mainboard sorceries or expendable creatures you're relying entirely on your opponent's game plan to get it past a 2/3. While I'm sure that happens plenty often, it's still just shaky enough a bet that I'd be looking to Scavenging Ooze instead if anything.

If you want ramp your best bet is some combination of Birds, Hierarch, and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Since all of them are creatures they can come off of Vial or Company, and the Elder gives you fuel on the off chance you need to cast a Ruinator rather than cheat it out.

For disruption I feel like you want to look to early-game counters like Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Remand. The more you can stall your opponent while waiting for the mana you need the better. Oh, and you absolutely need a fourth Bolt just in general.

Explain why you have no library manipulation? Whatever you think Faithless Looting is for I'm 90% sure that Serum Visions would be better. The lack of a fourth Collected Company also disturbs me, it's pretty much what the deck is about after all.

Fable Wright

2015-05-30, 06:30 AM

First off I'd go up to three Imaginary Pets. Now that I think about it it makes for an excellent turn two blocker to blunt an aggro assault. On the flip side I am actually not liking Goyf in this deck at all. With no mainboard sorceries or expendable creatures you're relying entirely on your opponent's game plan to get it past a 2/3. While I'm sure that happens plenty often, it's still just shaky enough a bet that I'd be looking to Scavenging Ooze instead if anything.
Goyf is powered by Vexing Sphinx and Faithless Looting, which dump the uncastable creatures out of my hand in exchange for useful cards. Dumping a Myr Superion jumps Goyf up to a 4/5 immediately. With regards to the Scavenging Ooze, I'd be tempted, but mana is tight in this deck. Aside from the CitP trigger off Goyf from Temur Ascendancy, pumping Ooze also requires a larger mana investment than I can often afford, making them atrocious in multiples. The lifegain is very tempting, though.

As for Imaginary Pets, I have tried more in the past, but they are very bad past turn 2 without Temur Ascendancy, which is not a guaranteed draw. They are also worthless in multiples. Instead, I wanted to try Epochrasite, which comes down as a 4/4 self-recurring threat off Aether Vial or Collected Company, and can be hardcast on turn 2 as a chump blocker that will come back in the future against aggro decks. Most of the utility of Imaginary Pet, without the crippling drawback when Temur Ascendancy doesn't show up. The only question, as normal, is what to cut for them.

If you want ramp your best bet is some combination of Birds, Hierarch, and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Since all of them are creatures they can come off of Vial or Company, and the Elder gives you fuel on the off chance you need to cast a Ruinator rather than cheat it out.
Birds and Hierarch are tempting for Myr Superion, but the problem remains that a lot of the cards do not want to be hardcast, and post-board, they would be the only creatures in the deck that don't survive an Anger of the Gods. Sakura-Tribe Elder is much more tempting, but it ramps me up to 4, which is often unnecessary, and replacing creatures in the deck with him decreases the value of Collected Company.

For disruption I feel like you want to look to early-game counters like Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Remand. The more you can stall your opponent while waiting for the mana you need the better. Oh, and you absolutely need a fourth Bolt just in general.
Spell Pierce is obviated by Stubborn Denial, which acts as a hard counter past turn 3 when the opponent could possibly pay the additional 2. Two mana creatures for Spell Snare tend not to scare me, as my creatures tend to be bigger or theirs die to Bolt. Remand is nice, but expensive mana-wise. It's difficult to hold up two lands past turn 2 for counters. I do like the card draw from them, though. What would you recommend cutting for additional counterspells or removal?

As for lightning bolts, I could swap out the one-of Echoing Truth for another bolt, but I've found that the Echoing Truth is randomly fantastic in certain matchups. It does serious work vs. Tron in clearing the path of Wurmcoil Engines, deals with Deceiver Exarch where Bolt fails for the Twin matchup, gives me an out game 1 to a resolved Ensnaring Bridge, helps against Pyromancer Ascension counter buildup, and randomly delivers value when spells are played in multiples. Also excellent against Voice of Resurgence tokens. I would consider cutting something else for the last bolt, but... I have no idea what.

Explain why you have no library manipulation? Whatever you think Faithless Looting is for I'm 90% sure that Serum Visions would be better. The lack of a fourth Collected Company also disturbs me, it's pretty much what the deck is about after all.
I had Serum visions, and aside from pumping Goyf, they did very little work. The fact of the matter was that the deck needed a higher creature density for Collected Company, and it needed more land. It has completely whiffed on Company far too often at 16 creatures. Replacing the two Serum Visions I had main for an additional land and an additional creature slot did a lot of work, albeit at cost to my Goyfs. Visions also have been very bad past turn 2, when I am again extremely tight on mana, especially Blue.

Faithless Looting (much like Vexing Sphinx) is for turning dead cards a la Myr Superion, Skaab Ruinator, and occasionally Illusory Angels or lategame Aether Vials into cards that I can cast. Lategame, after Temur Ascendancy is online, it's invaluable to turn the lands I can't play that choke my hand into more creatures or workable spells to keep the chain going. In essence, it's a one-mana-draw-2 spell for the utility of the cards gained vs cards lost, though it gets worse in the early game, hence only two copies. Serum Visions is better early, but worse in lower quantities and power in the lategame, much to my chagrin during testing, as it offers no control over my immediate draw, and offers much less effective card advantage.

EDIT: As for the 4th Collected Company, I would like to make room for it, but they cost 4, meaning that they can be hard to cast, and bringing more in comes at the cost of additional creature or disruption slots. Additionally, I only need one to win the game. I do not want more than one in my hand at a given moment most of the time, given their mana cost, and by the time I'm on four land I tend to have one, either from card draw off Vexing Sphinx, Faithless Looting, Ascendancy triggers, or regular draws from turn.

Sith_Happens

2015-06-01, 08:13 PM

Goyf is powered by Vexing Sphinx and Faithless Looting, which dump the uncastable creatures out of my hand in exchange for useful cards. Dumping a Myr Superion jumps Goyf up to a 4/5 immediately.

Faithless Looting (much like Vexing Sphinx) is for turning dead cards a la Myr Superion, Skaab Ruinator, and occasionally Illusory Angels or lategame Aether Vials into cards that I can cast. Lategame, after Temur Ascendancy is online, it's invaluable to turn the lands I can't play that choke my hand into more creatures or workable spells to keep the chain going. In essence, it's a one-mana-draw-2 spell for the utility of the cards gained vs cards lost, though it gets worse in the early game, hence only two copies. Serum Visions is better early, but worse in lower quantities and power in the lategame, much to my chagrin during testing, as it offers no control over my immediate draw, and offers much less effective card advantage.

If you have so many dead cards so often that you need to devote card slots specifically to being able to cycle them, the best solution is almost always to just change things so you'll have fewer dead cards in the first place. I suppose that's harder than usual with this game plan, but there's no way it's impossible.

Take Myr Superion for example. How often are you actually putting it on the battlefield versus pitching it for Goyf food? If the answer is "more often the latter than the former," that's a sign you should be cutting it.

With regards to the Scavenging Ooze, I'd be tempted, but mana is tight in this deck. Aside from the CitP trigger off Goyf from Temur Ascendancy, pumping Ooze also requires a larger mana investment than I can often afford, making them atrocious in multiples. The lifegain is very tempting, though.

It's also mainboard graveyard hate.

Instead, I wanted to try Epochrasite, which comes down as a 4/4 self-recurring threat off Aether Vial or Collected Company, and can be hardcast on turn 2 as a chump blocker that will come back in the future against aggro decks. Most of the utility of Imaginary Pet, without the crippling drawback when Temur Ascendancy doesn't show up. The only question, as normal, is what to cut for them.

I like this idea, you should go whole hog and have four of them. Personally, the first thing I'd cut would probably be Vexing Sphinx. It's counterproductive in a deck that's trying to gain card advantage and, as I said above, if the filtering capabilities are important just because you get bad hands and draws so often then the problem isn't that you need filtering. Not to mention that Vexing Sphinx has to die for you to draw any cards from it, which is incredibly counterproductive in a deck that's trying to win by attacking with creatures.

Incidentally, have you considered Savage Knuckleblade? It's a 4/4 for 3 that you can hardcast, possibly has haste even without Ascendancy, pumps to a 6/6 on turns you're not doing anything else with your mana, and can bounce to your hand to immediately come back out off of Aether Vial for an extra Ascendancy draw if you don't have another beater in your hand.

Birds and Hierarch are tempting for Myr Superion, but the problem remains that a lot of the cards do not want to be hardcast, and post-board, they would be the only creatures in the deck that don't survive an Anger of the Gods.

Hopefully by the time Anger gets cast they've already served their purpose. If you're still concerned though then Wall of Roots is the best alternative.

Sakura-Tribe Elder is much more tempting, but it ramps me up to 4, which is often unnecessary, and replacing creatures in the deck with him decreases the value of Collected Company.

I'm not seeing how a fourth land is "often unnecessary" when Collected Company is essentially your trump card, but if it's true then I've found that a deck that needs three lands to win only needs to have twenty lands in it. That and upping your fetch count should go a decent way towards solving your creature-drawing problems.

Incidentally, I never said anything about necessarily cutting other creatures for ramp creatures.

Spell Pierce is obviated by Stubborn Denial, which acts as a hard counter past turn 3 when the opponent could possibly pay the additional 2. Two mana creatures for Spell Snare tend not to scare me, as my creatures tend to be bigger or theirs die to Bolt. Remand is nice, but expensive mana-wise. It's difficult to hold up two lands past turn 2 for counters. I do like the card draw from them, though.

You'll note that I said "early-game disruption." Once you're dropping one to two 4/4's per turn the game is yours to lose, the tricky part is getting to that point. Spell Pierce stops Inquisition/Thoughtseize and Liliana, protects Aeither Vial post-board while you're still adding charge counters, and... uh... Okay, Spell Pierce might be a sideboard card at best. Holding mana for Remand, on the other hand, I'm pretty sure would often end up being the best use of your second turn.

Fable Wright

2015-06-01, 10:06 PM

Take Myr Superion for example. How often are you actually putting it on the battlefield versus pitching it for Goyf food? If the answer is "more often the latter than the former," that's a sign you should be cutting it.

Still testing him, but he comes out a surprising amount off the vial and Collected Company. As a 2-of, he sees a lot of play, and usually little time in my hand.

I like this idea, you should go whole hog and have four of them. Personally, the first thing I'd cut would probably be Vexing Sphinx. It's counterproductive in a deck that's trying to gain card advantage and, as I said above, if the filtering capabilities are important just because you get bad hands and draws so often then the problem isn't that you need filtering. Not to mention that Vexing Sphinx has to die for you to draw any cards from it, which is incredibly counterproductive in a deck that's trying to win by attacking with creatures.
The Vexing Sphinx lifecycle looks like this:

EtB, usually at instant speed, kills one attacker. Upkeep, discard a card, act to hold off creatures. Next upkeep, age counter is added, sacrificed, draw 2 cards. Almost always good, never unhappy to draw it, though it's often bad on the snapback.

Plus, it's one of the few creatures, much less fliers, that I can always cast from hand. That said, with Epochrasite entering the mix, it might become less of an issue, and having to sacrifice it does become a significant drawback. I'll see about bringing the Sphinx and Ruinator counts back down to 2, maybe take out Leatherback Baloth and a basic land or Imaginary Pet, and bring in a set of Epochrasites, and see how they work out.

Incidentally, have you considered Savage Knuckleblade? It's a 4/4 for 3 that you can hardcast, possibly has haste even without Ascendancy, pumps to a 6/6 on turns you're not doing anything else with your mana, and can bounce to your hand to immediately come back out off of Aether Vial for an extra Ascendancy draw if you don't have another beater in your hand.
Oof, yeah. The problem is mana concerns and 4 toughness. The biggest problem I've run into is Goyfs and Siege Rhinos, and 4/4s just die to them. It's part of the reason why Myr Superion's floating around the list at the moment, as one of the few creatures that randomly eats creatures those size. I could swap them out for Ravaging Riftwurm, on the one hand, but vanishing can be really bad.

Anyways. The fact that I need to pay 3 mana for it to survive combat with a Goyf or to bounce it makes it painful to wield when I'm trying to expand my board. If I have a vial on 3, the Abzan player is not doing his job and the Knuckleblade will be fantastic. Otherwise, I either have a dead card on board for a turn or one whose utility prevents me from developing my board state. Leatherback Baloths and fliers just tend to be better. In the other matchups, Knuckleblade's utility modes see very little use.

Incidentally, I never said anything about necessarily cutting other creatures for ramp creatures.

The only other thing that I can cut that isn't early-game disruption is a Faithless Looting and perhaps lands. I would definitely feel safer cutting a land for ramp than disruption, though.

That said, looking at options, I'm split between Sakura-Tribe Elder and Edge of Autumn. Edge... I think I want to test first, as it fills that critical sorcery slot, and I'm willing to cut a looting for because of its cycling capacity. Could actually turn out to be the missing link in the deck, though I'm unsure of how big an impact it will have, positive or negative.

You'll note that I said "early-game disruption." Once you're dropping one to two 4/4's per turn the game is yours to lose, the tricky part is getting to that point. Spell Pierce stops Inquisition/Thoughtseize and Liliana, protects Aeither Vial post-board while you're still adding charge counters, and... uh... Okay, Spell Pierce might be a sideboard card at best. Holding mana for Remand, on the other hand, I'm pretty sure would often end up being the best use of your second turn.
Second turn is now being pulled by Edge of Autumn ramp, Epochrasites, early Goyf, second-vial + Disruption, and Imaginary Pet. Not sure that I need another option for turn 2. Also, Spell Pierce stops that turn 4 Twin, and Stubborn Denial hits all of those targets save turn 2 Inquisition with an untapped land for backup. I will give serious consideration for swapping it into a Spell Pierce, though.

enderlord99

2015-06-06, 08:16 AM

http://archive.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ld/ld42_nemesis.jpg

sonofzeal

2015-06-06, 12:01 PM

http://archive.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ld/ld42_nemesis.jpg

But.... but... pages relating it shrivel! YOU'VE DOOMED GIANTSITP, YOU MONSTER!

enderlord99

2015-06-06, 02:36 PM

But.... but... pages relating it shrivel! YOU'VE DOOMED GIANTSITP, YOU MONSTER!

Pretty sure that only applies to paper ones.

Lea Plath

2015-06-07, 03:48 AM

'allo all!

So been super busy, less time for magic. However, couple of cool things happened.

First up I went and got my hands on a MUD deck. I originally got it as a way to build towards UR Painter and get some good cards like Wasteland, but I decided if I was gonna build a deck I would build a Show and Tell variant so I'm now looking towards those.

I'm also sharing my collection with a friend so we can build better decks. This also means that I've acquired 4 'goyf and am now building Modern Bug Control to replace Scapeshift.

I also went to the UK Eternal Weekend few weeks back. That was fun. Bazhaar of Bagdad made Dredge so fun to play and I went 3-3, then sadly 3-4 with MUD at the legacy.

So how are you all?

Kumori

2015-06-08, 04:11 PM

I have a question about copying creature tokens!

Let's say I have a Kiki-Jiki (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397698) in play and I make a copy of something (doesn't matter what). This token is going to be sacrificed at the end of the turn as a part of the effect that created it.
If I were to make a copy of that token using some other ability (populate, maybe), does this new token need be sacrificed at end of turn?

I feel like the answer should be yes, but I can't seem to figure out which rules make that happen. Is the going-to-be-sacrificed-ness of the token copied? Why? Why not?

Help!

Ninjaman

2015-06-08, 04:20 PM

Kumori

2015-06-08, 04:28 PM

The other token stays alive. The sac clause is not an ability on the token but a delayed trigger created by the ability that created it (my rules lingo might be wrong). The token does get haste though.

That's what I was thinking too. It feels wrong though... Hence the question.

Duck999

2015-06-09, 05:18 AM

So how are you all?

Good!
Magic Origins looks more... classic(?) than other sets recently. It could be because it isn't covered with multicolored. I can't wait to see other planeswalkers.

raymundo

2015-06-09, 05:26 PM

That's what I was thinking too. It feels wrong though... Hence the question.

It's true though. Just imagine that the specifiv token gets the sac ability as part of the resolution of Kiki-Jikis ability. If it is,not created with him, it never gets it.

Fun fact: You can only sac creatures you control, so if an opponent steals your "sac at end of turn"-token, they will keep it indefinately. Something to keep in mind when attacking e.g. with Geist of Saint Traft into Vesalken Shackles

Ninjaman

2015-06-09, 06:04 PM

It's true though. Just imagine that the specifiv token gets the sac ability as part of the resolution of Kiki-Jikis ability. If it is,not created with him, it never gets it.

Fun fact: You can only sac creatures you control, so if an opponent steals your "sac at end of turn"-token, they will keep it indefinately. Something to keep in mind when attacking e.g. with Geist of Saint Traft into Vesalken Shackles

Geist exiles the token, nice try though.

Somensjev

2015-06-10, 09:52 AM

sonofzeal

2015-06-10, 11:26 AM

So! I've been designing custom magic cards with a fairly silly theme - call centres.

Custom keyword - "Confront (this creature fights an opponent's creature, selected randomly)"

Callspammer (R) - 2/1
Creature - goblin customer

At the beginning of your upkeep, Confront.

"Over, and over, and over..."

Mathematicus Ignoremus (1R) - 3/1
Creature - imp customer

When Mathematicus Ignoremus becomes blocked, remove it from combat and Confront.

"One cannot be reasoned with unless the essential language of thought is shared."

Escalator (2BG) - 3/4
Creature - troll customer

(1G): Regenerate Escalator and Confront. Sacrifice Escalator at end of turn.

"I need a manager."

Credit Fisher (2B) - 1/4
Creature - elf customer

(T): Confront

If a creature damaged by Credit Fisher is put into the graveyard this turn, its controller discards a card.

"Even an iron will can be worn down by incessent demands."

Recaller (2B) - 1/2
Creature - Zombie Customer

Undying

When Recaller enters the battlefield, if it has a counter on it, Confront.

"I know I just asked someone else the exact same thing, but..."

Actually Does Know District Manager (3BRG) - 1/6
Legendary Creature - human customer

(1BRG): Regenerate, gain deathtouch until end of turn, and Confront.

"Many are the pretenders to the throne, but an encounter with the true one is likely to be your last."

Rageful Bigot (4RG) - 2/7
Creature - giant horror customer

Defender, Wither

(T): Confront

"I'm not a racist, but...."

Bearly Audible (1G) - 2/2
Creature - Beast Customer

(T): Confront

".................."

Cent Grubber (2G) - 3/3
Creature - Centaur Customer

(T): Confront

"No amount too small, no invective too harsh."

Rumbling Complainer (2GG) - 4/4
Creature - Beast Customer

(T): Confront

"In my day, companies were honest and valued the hard-earned money of their customers..."

Thoughts, suggestions, feedback?

Landis963

2015-06-10, 02:08 PM

Thoughts, suggestions, feedback?

Thought: Are you working through some issues?

Suggestion: "Confront" doesn't lend itself to a random mechanic, name-wise. "Antagonize," perhaps?

Feedback: AKDM is broken. Unkillable except by board wipe, and when it regenerates, it kills a random dude of yours. Scale back just a bit.

Fable Wright

2015-06-10, 08:36 PM

So, i'm thinking of building a green deck for casual modern games, but i'm not really sure what cards to put in there. At the moment, i'm just thinking of ones that i like, and could work together.

It's not really meant to be a very serious deck, basically as long as it functions i'll be happy :smalltongue:

|Lands| Total: 20
18x Forest
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

|Creatures| Total: 18-21
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
1x Karametra, God of Harvests
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
1x Kruphix, God of Horizons
2x Khalni hydra
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Oracle of Nectars
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Overgrown Battlement
4x Axebane Guardian
Nx Engulfing Slagwurm

|Others| Total: 7
2x Lure
4x Caged Sun
1x Beastmaster Ascension

Any ideas for cards i could put in that to make it a bit more workable?
Or what cards might not be worth putting in there to begin with?
You know, Big Green Primalcrux is a deck I've seen thrown out there more than once. What you need to add are 4 more Primalcruxes, 4 more Leatherback Baloths, 2 more Khalni Hydras, and possibly some Kalonian Tuskers or Cloudthreshers, and then replacing all of the expensive ramp (Oracle of Mul Daya, Caged Sun, Overgrown Battlement, Axebane Guardian) and cards that don't fit in the deck (Engulfing Slagwurm, Beastmaster Ascension, Lure, Oracle of Necters, Seedborne Muse, all the Gods and Planeswalkers) with 1 mana creatures that tap for G. And then run people over with turn 3-4 Primalcruxes and free Khalni Hydras as you laugh maniacally.

sonofzeal

2015-06-11, 10:57 PM

Thought: Are you working through some issues?
More like amusing myself and other friends. Call centers pretty much run my town, and nearly everyone I know who plays mtg has worked at one.

Suggestion: "Confront" doesn't lend itself to a random mechanic, name-wise. "Antagonize," perhaps?
Fair point. Perhaps "Assault" or "Assail"? What about the mechanic itself, does it seem reasonable? Random targets can bog the game down, but it does fill a nice midpoint between caster choosing (like Prey Upon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=271366)) and opponent choosing (like Arena (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109739)).

Feedback: AKDM is broken. Unkillable except by board wipe, and when it regenerates, it kills a random dude of yours. Scale back just a bit.
....yeah, I suspected as much. I was looking at Necrobite specifically for the ability, but something can be balanced as an instant and overpowered as a mana ability even at twice the cost. Maybe raise AKDM (3BBGG) for the cost, and for the abilities, "(3BB): Regenerate and gain deathtouch until end of turn" and "(GG), (T): Confront". It can still do everything as before, just with more difficulty, and generally can't get the deathtouch off twice except defending. I'm not sure if the mana splitting out into the activated abilities is elegant or hokey though.

Sith_Happens

2015-06-12, 01:31 AM

....yeah, I suspected as much. I was looking at Necrobite specifically for the ability, but something can be balanced as an instant and overpowered as a mana ability even at twice the cost. Maybe raise AKDM (3BBGG) for the cost, and for the abilities, "(3BB): Regenerate and gain deathtouch until end of turn" and "(GG), (T): Confront". It can still do everything as before, just with more difficulty, and generally can't get the deathtouch off twice except defending. I'm not sure if the mana splitting out into the activated abilities is elegant or hokey though.

How about "BB: Deathtouch until end of turn," "GG: Regenerate," "RR: Confront," and drop its toughness to 3? That way you can still potentially spam the combined effect of "Choose a creature you don't control at random and destroy it," but only with dedicated effort because it costs six mana per use and that ain't cheap. With the toughness decrease you can probably also drop its CMC by one or possibly even two.

Fable Wright

2015-06-12, 11:44 PM

Just pulled a foil Goyf, after pulling a regular Goyf last time I drafted MM15 at FLGS. I am happy. I finally managed to get 4 Modern Masters-style Goyfs so my Temur Company deck no longer has an awkward 2/2 split of MM/Future Sight.

...Now if only I could get a foil full-art mountain. >_<

Mystic Muse

2015-06-13, 12:14 AM

Sith_Happens

2015-06-13, 12:17 AM

I'll get you a foil full-art mountain in exchange for that goyf.

:smalltongue:

I'll get you two.:smalltongue:

Mystic Muse

2015-06-13, 03:05 AM

I'll get you two.:smalltongue:

You are now my archnemesis.:smalltongue:

Occasional Sage

2015-06-13, 11:59 AM

I'm knocking together a Standard-legal B/G deck, and would appreciate comments.

4 Plummet
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Ultimate Price
4 Pharika's Cure
4 Naturalize
2 Diabolic Tutor
4 Foul-Tongue Shriek
4 Heir of the Wilds
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Warden of the First Tree
8 Swamp
8 Forest
4 Jungle Hollow

I'm grabbing creatures with more power than their casting cost would suggest, and banking on destroying enemy critters to clear the way. Along with everything else, really.

Fable Wright

2015-06-13, 02:13 PM

I'm knocking together a Standard-legal B/G deck, and would appreciate comments.

I'm grabbing creatures with more power than their casting cost would suggest, and banking on destroying enemy critters to clear the way. Along with everything else, really.

Out: Plummet, Diabolic Tutor, Naturalize. The green removal here is just too situational for the mainboard, and Diabolic tutor costs far more than anything you tutor out. I would also take out Foul-Tongue Shriek; you don't have the creature density to actually make use of it.

Then, add more creatures. Gurmag Angler and Hooting Mandrills are cheap in all senses of the word. Tasigur is more expensive monetarily, but absolutely fantastic. I would add 5, maybe 6 Delve cards to the deck total, though, to prevent too much countersyngergy. Not sure what else to add, though, as I'm unfamiliar with KTK block and I assume you don't want to add soon-to-rotate Theros stuff.

I'll get you a foil full-art mountain in exchange for that goyf.

:smalltongue:

I'll give you a future sight Goyf for a Guru mountain, if you can pull that off. :smalltongue:

Occasional Sage

2015-06-13, 04:08 PM

Out: Plummet, Diabolic Tutor, Naturalize. The green removal here is just too situational for the mainboard, and Diabolic tutor costs far more than anything you tutor out. I would also take out Foul-Tongue Shriek; you don't have the creature density to actually make use of it.

Then, add more creatures. Gurmag Angler and Hooting Mandrills are cheap in all senses of the word. Tasigur is more expensive monetarily, but absolutely fantastic. I would add 5, maybe 6 Delve cards to the deck total, though, to prevent too much countersyngergy. Not sure what else to add, though, as I'm unfamiliar with KTK block and I assume you don't want to add soon-to-rotate Theros stuff.

I'll give you a future sight Goyf for a Guru mountain, if you can pull that off. :smalltongue:

DT and Shriek have been iffy for me, I can't argue either one really; Shriek is only there as a way to manage direct-ish damage. Anglers and Madrills are good adds, but I don't see the value of Tasigur; if the return is my opponent's choice, how valuable could it be?

Also, if I tip the creature balance with Anglers and Mandrils, doesn't Shriek start being reasonable? Probably unnecessary though with more beasties.

Naturalize looks like a niche case, but my play group leans heavily toward both enchantments and artifacts I don't want to see in play: Curse of Exhaustion, Pacifism, Mask of Avycyn, Deathskull, those irritating Rings that give +1/+1 counters every turn..... (and yes, I know I'm restricting myself to Standard when they aren't).

Ninjaman

2015-06-13, 04:34 PM

Though it's in theros, reaper of the wilds is like a dollar.
Another good fatty for this type of deck includes Whisperwood Elemental.

Mystic Muse

2015-06-13, 04:46 PM

I'll give you a future sight Goyf for a Guru mountain, if you can pull that off. :smalltongue:

I'll be honest, this offer is tempting.

Androgeus

2015-06-13, 06:46 PM

but I don't see the value of Tasigur; if the return is my opponent's choice, how valuable could it be?

I use to think that but really if tasigur is returning bad cards, it's because they are just bad cards in the first place and not really Tasigur's fault. Also you can use his delve to get rid of any cards you don't want.

Occasional Sage

2015-06-13, 07:41 PM

Also you can use his delve to get rid of any cards you don't want.

That's very clever.

Sith_Happens

2015-06-13, 08:14 PM

That's very clever.

Don't forget that his ability also feeds your other delve cards.

Mystic Muse

2015-06-13, 08:58 PM

Assuming you transform the new Chandra, Liliana, ETC. with moonmist instead of their regular method, do thry still get counters?

Fable Wright

2015-06-13, 09:21 PM

Assuming you transform the new Chandra, Liliana, ETC. with moonmist instead of their regular method, do thry still get counters?

They do not. As Garruk has shown us, counters stay on planeswalkers when they're transformed. Thus, unless granted counters through Fate Transfer or other means, they will die as a state-based action.

Occasional Sage

2015-06-20, 09:11 PM

Fable Wright

2015-06-20, 09:35 PM

sonofzeal

2015-06-22, 07:21 AM

Assume I have a Battlefield Thaumaturge in play and attack with all my creatures. I then use WW to cast two copies of Launch the Fleet. What happens? Options:

I get a token for every creature I own; the spell being duplicated, I waste the second LtF
or, the ability being added to the creatures twice, I get two tokens for every creature.

Opinions? My reading is that I get two tokens per attacker, but I'm hardly an expert.

<pedant>Actually, you get nothing. Launch the Fleet's added text only triggers when the creatures are declared as attackers, and you said you cast it afterward - which isn't even legal in the first place, unless you've got something like Hypersonic Dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253655) in play.</pedant>

Androgeus

2015-06-22, 11:22 AM

Have people being keeping up with Origins spoilers? What do you all make of Renown & Spell Mastery? Oh and the fact that Prowess & Menace becoming evergreen?

Landis963

2015-06-22, 01:24 PM

Fable Wright

2015-06-22, 10:04 PM

Have people being keeping up with Origins spoilers? What do you all make of Renown & Spell Mastery? Oh and the fact that Prowess & Menace becoming evergreen?

Renown is very obviously a riff on monstrosity, but it seems underwhelming, especially since it needs to hit face in order to turn on. Prowess and Menace becoming evergreen is something I'm fine with, because despite intimidate's utility as evasion, it made for very frustrating board states. Also RU needed a combat mechanic or two anyway.

EDIT: Where are you seeing Spell Mastery?
EDIT EDIT: Got it. Seems cool. It's another RU mechanic, but again, that color pair needs it.

Spoilers are technically spoilers and should probably be spoilered.

Spell Mastery:
...But why? You're giving fuel to the irritating Cantrips-And-Young-Pyromancers decks for the purposes of making Cantrips-And-Young-Pyromancers decks a thing, while punishing decks that only want to use a few spells. Though I suppose I would be happy if this made creatureless control at least somewhat viable, for people who like that archetype.

Renown:
Interesting. It's like Monstrous and Tribute had a child. If they do anything other than +1/+1 counters with Renown, I like it.

Dhavaer

2015-06-23, 12:23 AM

I'm putting together a deck for Modern and I think it should be smaller.

Land x20
1x Izzet Boilerworks (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247279)
10x Island
6x Mountain
3x Swiftwater Cliffs (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391936)

Creatures x25
1x Djinn Illuminatus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292730)
1x Spellheart Chimera (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373554)
2x Wee Dragonauts (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292741)
2x Kiln Fiend (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292742)
2x Jeskai Windscout (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386576)
3x Lotus Path Djinn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391869)
1x Izzet Chronarch (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292734)
1x Dragon-Style Twins (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386526)
1x Gelectrode (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292731)
1x Izzet Guildmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292735)
1x Izzet Signet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292736)
2x Jeskai Sage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391864)
1x Riverwheel Aerialists (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386638)
1x Elusive Spellfist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394563)
1x Sage-Eye Avengers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391911)
1x Goblin Electromancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253548)
1x Galvanoth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338469)
1x Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397851)
1x Bloodfire Expert (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386492)

Other x24
1x Lost in a Labyrinth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373629)
2x Pyromatics (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292739)
1x Reminisce (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338471)
2x Magma Spray (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=380452)
1x Train of Thought (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292740)
1x Prophetic Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383054)
2x Winterflame (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386727)
1x Rogue's Gloves (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383365)
2x Dance of the Skywise (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394529)
1x Vacuumelt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338398)
1x Quicksilver Dagger (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292757)
1x Sphinx-Bone Wand (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292760)
1x Lightning Strike (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383299)
2x Voyage's End (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373527)
1x Izzet Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253528)
1x Void Snare (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383429)
1x Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292752)
1x Invoke the Firemind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292732)
1x Brainstorm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382224)

Main points:
- creatures that get bigger (or otherwise benefit) when I cast spells (Kiln Fiend, things with Prowess)
- drawing cards to get more spells (Brain Storm, Train of Thought)
- spells that can be cast multiple times (Isochron Scepter, Pyromatics)
- other things that indirectly help with the above (Goblin Electromancer, Izzet Chronarch)

The ideal result being to smack people in the face with giant djinni.

So, what should I remove? I'd like to slim down to 60 cards. Also, is 'Izzet' pronounced 'Iz-it' or 'Iz-ay'?

Sith_Happens

2015-06-23, 08:51 AM

Oh and the fact that Prowess & Menace becoming evergreen?

I was about to say that being in a summer set, especially one with a multiplanar theme, but apparently (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/evergreen-eggs-ham-2015-06-08) Menace and Prowess have in fact been evergreened. Which I am very okay with (read: ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE MOAR PROWESS).

Spoilers are technically spoilers and should probably be spoilered.

We went over this a long time ago, set spoilers need only be spoilered if someone actually says they're trying to avoid spoilers. It's in the OP now.

Spell Mastery:
...But why? You're giving fuel to the irritating Cantrips-And-Young-Pyromancers decks for the purposes of making Cantrips-And-Young-Pyromancers decks a thing, while punishing decks that only want to use a few spells. Though I suppose I would be happy if this made creatureless control at least somewhat viable, for people who like that archetype.

Once again I was going to say that summer expansions aren't legal in Modern and I've yet to see a Spell Mastery card with any chance of catching on in Legacy, but apparently Origins is a core set? What's the summer expansion going to be then?:smallconfused:

Speaking of that article, I found this line rather nostalgic:

For some reason we became very fond of keeping things from regenerating when they were destroyed (I attribute this to the popularity of the cards Terror and Disintegrate).

I remember very well back when every black removal spell and its mother said "It can't be regenerated." Good old reliable Dark Banishing.

unseenmage

2015-06-23, 09:43 AM

As I sit here sorting about 2 booster boxes worth of M2 cards which I had given to me in disgust by the people who opened the packs (they were going to throw them away) a thought occurs.

What if everyone had Tarmogoyphs? Would WotC then have to ban the card for making the format stale? Is that why MM2 sucks so hard, because they didn't want to have to whip out the ban-stick?

Cuz, I mean, it's not just 'Goyph. There are a lot of Modern 'staples' that didn't see a reprint.
I've heard a lot of folks claim that MM2 was a cash grab and blame that reason for the poor reprint policy. But that strikes me as hollow everytime I hear it. Sure they're owned by Hasbro now and, lets face it, WotC needed some corporate oversight to shake things up; And maybe their new corporate overlords require a sacrificial cash grab or two here and there.

But as much as WotC hates banning cards and the bad press that comes with it it sure would seem a sight easier to a) not print problem cards while promising to print them later, and b) restrict access to format stale-i-fying cards with a smaller pack count per booster box and a higher MSRP of $10 per pack.

Maybe WotC wasn't trying to make Magic a pay-to-win game but were trying to avoid banning 'Goyph. Just a thought I had; figured I'd share.

Fable Wright

2015-06-23, 12:20 PM

We went over this a long time ago, set spoilers need only be spoilered if someone actually says they're trying to avoid spoilers. It's in the OP now.
I think I may have missed that thread. Thanks for the head's up.

Once again I was going to say that summer expansions aren't legal in Modern and I've yet to see a Spell Mastery card with any chance of catching on in Legacy, but apparently Origins is a core set? What's the summer expansion going to be then?:smallconfused:
Magic Origins is the summer expansion. MM2 fills the Commander/Planechase/etc. space.

What if everyone had Tarmogoyphs? Would WotC then have to ban the card for making the format stale? Is that why MM2 sucks so hard, because they didn't want to have to whip out the ban-stick?

Nope. Among the players in tournaments that decide what Wizards thinks of the metagame, Tarmogoyf's price is a non-factor. And while Tarmogoyf is a great card, it is not the best card for all possible decks. If you're attacking with creatures and running Green, Tarmogoyf is pretty good. If you're trying to combo out, not running green, or are more reliant on synergy than size, Tarmogoyf is not particularly good. If everyone had a Tarmogoyf, I would imagine we would see less Tarmogoyf-based decks, as people would get over the myth that Tarmogoyf is the best card ever and stop trying to cram him into absolutely everything.

Also, what? Who thinks MM2 sucks at all? The set's pretty fantastic from what I've seen. :smallconfused:

enderlord99

2015-06-23, 12:38 PM

Would you say Dark Depths + Pandemonium is a good combo?

unseenmage

2015-06-23, 12:52 PM

I think I may have missed that thread. Thanks for the head's up.

Magic Origins is the summer expansion. MM2 fills the Commander/Planechase/etc. space.

Nope. Among the players in tournaments that decide what Wizards thinks of the metagame, Tarmogoyf's price is a non-factor. And while Tarmogoyf is a great card, it is not the best card for all possible decks. If you're attacking with creatures and running Green, Tarmogoyf is pretty good. If you're trying to combo out, not running green, or are more reliant on synergy than size, Tarmogoyf is not particularly good. If everyone had a Tarmogoyf, I would imagine we would see less Tarmogoyf-based decks, as people would get over the myth that Tarmogoyf is the best card ever and stop trying to cram him into absolutely everything.

Also, what? Who thinks MM2 sucks at all? The set's pretty fantastic from what I've seen. :smallconfused:

I say MM2 sucks and the heaps of MM2 packs in the trash at my LGS say it sucks.
To clarify, MM2 is like Coldsnap (Coldsnap being my standard for sets whose packs are only opened for a very few rares) in that it has several chase rares and a lot of chaff practically no one needs.

And Goyf was just the example. You'll note I explained further that I was considering all the Modern staples I've heard complaints about there being too few of.

Also, my concern is that no, Goyf isn't the best card. But if there were enough of him to go around every deck might turn into a Goyf deck. This is what I meant by the format going stale, eg the reason WotC cited for banning Jace 2.0 and Stoneforge way back when.

Sith_Happens

2015-06-23, 01:55 PM

[Snip]

Price has nothing to do with ban decisions.

Would you say Dark Depths + Pandemonium is a good combo?

That's not a combo, it's a way to win with Dark Depths a turn earlier and not have to worry about creature removal. Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage is a combo.

I say MM2 sucks and the heaps of MM2 packs in the trash at my LGS say it sucks.
To clarify, MM2 is like Coldsnap (Coldsnap being my standard for sets whose packs are only opened for a very few rares) in that it has several chase rares and a lot of chaff practically no one needs.

Spoken like someone who hasn't drafted it.

Also, my concern is that no, Goyf isn't the best card. But if there were enough of him to go around every deck might turn into a Goyf deck. This is what I meant by the format going stale, eg the reason WotC cited for banning Jace 2.0 and Stoneforge way back when.

Just three weeks ago I took a Gruul deck to a Modern $1K that had no Goyfs in it. Admittedly I didn't do very well, but the lack of Goyfs had nothing to do with that.

Mystic Muse

2015-06-23, 07:42 PM

My primary complaint about MM2 is that they could have reprinted a few things in the rare slot that aren't exactly Modern staples, but whose price has gone up a fair amount due to casual and EDH, like dragon broodmother. I mean, a lot of rares they put in the set are truly trash, and most of the commons and uncommons are dirt cheap as well.

Dhavaer

2015-06-24, 06:09 AM

Apparently I had two Cunning Plan decks, so I gave my Izzet-Jeskai fusion a rebuild:

Land x17
1x Izzet Boilerworks (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247279)
7x Island
5x Mountain
4x Swiftwater Cliffs (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391936)

Creatures x26
1x Spellheart Chimera (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373554)
2x Wee Dragonauts (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292741)
2x Kiln Fiend (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292742)
4x Jeskai Windscout (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386576)
2x Lotus Path Djinn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391869)
1x Dragon-Style Twins (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386526)
1x Izzet Guildmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292735)
1x Izzet Signet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292736)
4x Jeskai Sage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391864)
2x Riverwheel Aerialists (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386638)
1x Goblin Electromancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253548)
1x Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=397851)
2x Bloodfire Expert (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386492)
2x Monastery Swiftspear

Other x19
1x Lost in a Labyrinth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373629)
2x Pyromatics (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292739)
2x Magma Spray (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=380452)
1x Train of Thought (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292740)
1x Vacuumelt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338398)
1x Sphinx-Bone Wand (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292760)
4x Lightning Strike (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383299)
2x Voyage's End (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373527)
1x Izzet Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253528)
2x Void Snare (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383429)
1x Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292752)
1x Brainstorm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382224)

Most of the pricier spells are gone, more of the ones that are left are eligible for Izzet Guildmage or Isochron Scepter (wish I had more of them). I also added two Monastery Swiftspears, which I can't link to because Gatherer is down. In any case, I think this is a much better setup.

Lea Plath

2015-06-24, 10:57 AM

So this is what I'm running for modern at the moment.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/31-05-15-sultai-control/

It is pretty much a copy of the sultai control list running around running a GQ instead of a coloured land. My reasoning for this is I am struggling with Jund/Grixis manlands like Tarpit/Raging cause all my removal is sorcery or none land based. I sometimes side out a land so siding it out isn't the end of the world either.

Also anyone got any experience with Vintage? I'm trying to design a non-powered but still powerful vintage deck using either BUG colours or Junk and survival of the fittest to run a toolbox of dudes.

Androgeus

2015-06-24, 01:24 PM

It is pretty much a copy of the sultai control list running around running a GQ instead of a coloured land. My reasoning for this is I am struggling with Jund/Grixis manlands like Tarpit/Raging cause all my removal is sorcery or none land based. I sometimes side out a land so siding it out isn't the end of the world either.

Would you be better of running Tectonic Edge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389711)? It doesn't put you behind on land when you use it or do they have the man lands active before they have 4 lands? (something they would need a mana dork out to do)

Tesla_pasta

2015-06-24, 03:44 PM

Apparently I had two Cunning Plan decks, so I gave my Izzet-Jeskai fusion a rebuild:
-snip-

You've got some cool stuff going on here, but I think I can help improve it

First, run 60 cards. Anything more is sub-optimal. Just do it.

Second,your deck kinda has an identity crisis. Running bounce spells, cheap prowess creatures, and a low land count all lend to an aggressive plan, but you also have value engines in sceptre and wand, as well as big haymaker creatures and replicate spells, all of which lean towards a controlling strategy. Trying to fit both plans in will make your deck suffer in application.

Either way, 17 lands is too few. I run 17 lands in my blue/red legacy deck, but it can comfortably win with only 2 lands, and it runs 12 one-mana draw spells to make sure I hit my land drops on time. For a casual deck, 20-21 is good for aggressive decks, 24-25 is good for control decks.

Based on what you have already, there are a few ways you can take this deck:

1- Spellslinger Tempo
Run 12-16 creatures max, preferably in the 1-3 mana range. Creatures that generate value based on spells like guttersnipe, young pyromancer, snapcaster mage are all excellent, as well as cheap prowess creatures (or delver of secrets). Run lots and lots of removal- burn spells are always good since they can kill early blockers or do direct damage. You can also run bounce spells like vapor snag to clear away blockers that are too big to burn. I also really like flashback cards (esp. think twice) in this kind of deck since they trigger all of your value creatures twice. If you run any counterspells, run cheap ones like negate or mana leak (don't run essence scatter if you have good removal). See modern or legacy Delver decks for competitive examples

2- firey control
higher land count. This is the best deck for isochron scepter. Run tons of value spells and a few haymakers to finish the game. Run creatures that filter your deck like Omenspeaker and Augur of bolas. Modal cards are good here like izzet charm (for options) or mizzium mortars (good early, better late). For win conditions, try and run things that are hard to kill or generate card advantage. I like Keranos, Isochron scepter + burn spells, and runechanter's pike. For a competitive example, see modern Splinter Twin decks.

3- Kiln-Fiend Combo.
Try and kill you opponent on turn 4. Run Kiln fiend, wee-draconauts, Niv-magus cyclops, niv-magus elemental, monastery swiftspear (probably 14 creatures total). Run artful dodge, distortion strike, vapor snag, gitaxian probe, mutagenic growth, mizzium skin, titan's strength, assualt strobe. Basically you want to clear away any blockers your opponent has and pump your creatures for huge amounts and one-shot your opponent. Kiln Fiend + assualt strobe + titan's strengthdeals 20 damage on turn 3. Depending on how casual your playgroup is, people may hate you for this. See pauper and Modern Kiln Fiend decks for semi-competitive examples.

I'll edit this later today and link all the cards I mentioned, as well as link some tappedout example decks.

You've got some fantastic stuff there already, it just needs to be focused and cleaned up a bit.

**numbers pulled out of thin air

Dhavaer

2015-06-24, 04:54 PM

Land x20
1x Izzet Boilerworks (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=247279)
8x Island
7x Mountain
4x Swiftwater Cliffs (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391936)

Creatures x23
1x Spellheart Chimera (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373554)
2x Wee Dragonauts (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292741)
2x Kiln Fiend (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292742)
4x Jeskai Windscout (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386576)
3x Lotus Path Djinn (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391869)
1x Izzet Guildmage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292735)
1x Izzet Signet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292736)
4x Jeskai Sage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391864)
1x Goblin Electromancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253548)
2x Bloodfire Expert (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386492)
2x Monastery Swiftspear (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386608)

Other x17
1x Lost in a Labyrinth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373629)
2x Pyromatics (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292739)
2x Magma Spray (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=380452)
1x Train of Thought (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292740)
4x Lightning Strike (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383299)
2x Voyage's End (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373527)
1x Izzet Charm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253528)
2x Void Snare (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383429)
1x Isochron Scepter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292752)
1x Brainstorm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382224)

Putting in an extra Island and two Mountains gets me to 20 land. I've dropped the wand, Niv-Mizzet (*sniff*), the twins, the aerialists and Vacuumelt and added another Lotus Djinn, getting me to 60 cards with nothing costing more than 4 and no spells over 2 (so the scepter and guildmage work on everything). Hopefully that should work.

Lea Plath

2015-06-24, 04:59 PM

Would you be better of running Tectonic Edge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389711)? It doesn't put you behind on land when you use it or do they have the man lands active before they have 4 lands? (something they would need a mana dork out to do)

Generally it will be a Strip Mine anyway and I want to hold up mana and play more aggressively. Having mana for Cryptic and GQ is big, as is just having an early way to pop it and make goyf bigger/tasigur cheaper.

Tesla_pasta

2015-06-25, 12:53 AM

Shadow of the Sun

2015-06-25, 01:07 AM

Dhavaer

2015-06-25, 03:29 AM

What format are you building for? Because if it's Modern, Brainstorm isn't legal.

That's weird. Everything else from that deck is. I'll drop it and get the fourth lotus djinn.

Should I drop two of each basic land and put in four evolving wilds?

Androgeus

2015-06-25, 06:58 AM

Generally it will be a Strip Mine anyway and I want to hold up mana and play more aggressively. Having mana for Cryptic and GQ is big, as is just having an early way to pop it and make goyf bigger/tasigur cheaper.

Strip mine? Isn't this for modern? other than that I can see your reasoning for GQ.

That's weird. Everything else from that deck is. I'll drop it and get the fourth lotus djinn.

New frame =/= modern legal, there's actually quite a bit of the cunning deck that doesn't seem modern legal.

Dhavaer

2015-06-25, 07:03 AM

New frame =/= modern legal, there's actually quite a bit of the cunning deck that doesn't seem modern legal.

Brainstorm is actually from Izzet vs Golgari, not Cunning Plan. I've checked Gatherer and everything else seems fine.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-01, 10:52 PM

Magic Origins thoughts:

Archangel of Tithes + vigilance = win.

Hallowed Moonlight = Best. Tech. Ever.

Looks like Modern will be getting its very own Opalescence, minus the ability to deal damage to target judge.

Hello Modern-legal, less-comboable Timetwister. How are you doing today?:smallsmile:

My Melek commander deck needs Jace's Sanctum SO. BADLY.:smalleek:

Painter's Servant Combo is coming to Modern... A heavily-nerfed version, at least.

Spell Mastery for Demonic Tutor. I like.:smallamused:

Demonic Pact + bounce = win.

DEM EFFICIENT BLACK FATTIES.:smallcool:

Reave Soul = this comic (http://cardboard-crack.com/post/113577201011/changing-times) in action.:smalltongue:

Magmatic Insight and Molten Vortex are such great cards for so many decks (mostly mono-red ones) it's crazy.

Animist's Awakening = HOLY RAMP, BATMAN.

Yay, green pseudo-Polymorph effect.:smallbiggrin:

A new flavor text referencing Jaya Ballard? I thought this day would never come.:smallsmile:

And lastly, the enemy-colored painlands are coming back to Standard. Interesting.

Binks

2015-07-02, 12:10 PM

Spell Mastery for Demonic Tutor. I like.:smallamused:
Oh, it's such much more fun than that. I love this card so much.

With Spell Mastery:
It's Demonic Tutor (pay 5, get 3 back, net cost of 2) or
It's Diabolic Tutor + Dark Ritual (net cost of 5, same effects)

It fakes being 3 different cards (at least two of which are likely never going to see a reprint), does an effect that has been done before but with a different focus (typically, at least in the games I play, you play a tutor, go and grab something big and awesome, and plan to cast it next turn. With this you're pulled to go and grab something small and effective and immediately play it, kind of a 'Pay 5, put target 3 drop from your deck into play'). It's two effects are wildly different and yet incredibly synergistic.

It's also completely playable without Spell Mastery (1 cost more Diabolic Tutor which, while not a great card, is definitely playable).

I love this card so much. Such an incredible bit of design, packaged in a way that doesn't draw a huge amount of attention to itself. :smallsmile:

Duck999

2015-07-02, 04:17 PM

Can guttersnipe damage be redirected to planeswalkers?

Fable Wright

2015-07-02, 06:20 PM

Can guttersnipe damage be redirected to planeswalkers?

Absolutely. Any time you could deal damage to a player, you can deal it to a planeswalker that player controls instead.

Lord Ruby34

2015-07-03, 12:02 AM

Absolutely. Any time you could deal damage to a player, you can deal it to a planeswalker that player controls instead.

This is correct, but it does not apply to Guttersnipe. Each opponent is different than target player, and damage that would be dealt to each opponent cannot be redirected to a planeswalker.

Fable Wright

2015-07-03, 06:01 AM

This is correct, but it does not apply to Guttersnipe. Each opponent is different than target player, and damage that would be dealt to each opponent cannot be redirected to a planeswalker.

This is incorrect. When you choose to do something like bolt a planeswalker, that's merely shorthand for targeting a player with Lightning Bolt and choosing to redirect 3 damage to a planeswalker they control. It's why you can't bolt the planewalker of a player who has an Ivory Mask.

The relevant rule is this:

If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to an opponent, you may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker that opponent controls instead.

You are able to redirect damage from Earthquake from an opponent to that opponent's planeswalker. You cannot redirect loss of life, but any source of noncombat damage to an opponent, regardless of the targeting, can be redirected to a planeswalker, no ifs, ands, or buts. Guttersnipe is no exception.

Lord Ruby34

2015-07-03, 08:44 AM

This is incorrect. When you choose to do something like bolt a planeswalker, that's merely shorthand for targeting a player with Lightning Bolt and choosing to redirect 3 damage to a planeswalker they control. It's why you can't bolt the planewalker of a player who has an Ivory Mask.

The relevant rule is this:

You are able to redirect damage from Earthquake from an opponent to that opponent's planeswalker. You cannot redirect loss of life, but any source of noncombat damage to an opponent, regardless of the targeting, can be redirected to a planeswalker, no ifs, ands, or buts. Guttersnipe is no exception.

I stand corrected. I was sure it had to actually target to be redirected.

Occasional Sage

2015-07-04, 12:28 AM

In a strictly WUB deck, what ways are there to cast G or R spells other than the North Star (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1415) from Legends?

Sith_Happens

2015-07-04, 12:32 AM

In a strictly WUB deck, what ways are there to cast G or R spells other than the North Star (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1415) from Legends?

Define "strictly." Are effects that produce G and R mana out? Effects that can produce mana of any color?

Occasional Sage

2015-07-04, 01:11 AM

Define "strictly." Are effects that produce G and R mana out? Effects that can produce mana of any color?

erm, never mind. Discovered a fundamental rules misunderstanding.

Mystic Muse

2015-07-04, 01:18 AM

This is a bizarre request.

I've been rewatching Yugioh recently, and was wondering whether there's any way to do something similar to Pegasus's 'Toon' deck in Magic.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-04, 01:41 AM

This is a bizarre request.

I've been rewatching Yugioh recently, and was wondering whether there's any way to do something similar to Pegasus's 'Toon' deck in Magic.

Assuming you mean the version of it from the first arc (as opposed to later when it gets nerfed to match the actual cards more closely), its defining feature is having monsters that can't be destroyed in battle. Or, in Magic terms, creatures that either don't take damage in combat or aren't killed by combat damage.

Fable Wright

2015-07-04, 02:06 AM

This is a bizarre request.

I've been rewatching Yugioh recently, and was wondering whether there's any way to do something similar to Pegasus's 'Toon' deck in Magic.

Brief summary of Pegasus's deck, or at least the parts you want to replicate? My memory is hazy, and the actual Yugioh TCG cards are often different than they are in the anime. Toon cards in the TCG attack opponent directly with devastatingly high power for that effect (usually, such creatures have at most 300 attack), but cost 500 life to attack with each. From my vague memories, that's definitely not what his deck did. I think the toons were just powerful and really difficult to kill? I really can't remember.

EDIT:

Assuming you mean the version of it from the first arc (as opposed to later when it gets nerfed to match the actual cards more closely), its defining feature is having monsters that can't be destroyed in battle. Or, in Magic terms, creatures that either don't take damage in combat or aren't killed by combat damage.

If this is true, then Dolmen Gate is basically your Toon World analogue.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-06, 11:50 AM

Aerial Volley = counter target Lingering Souls.:smallamused:

Lea Plath

2015-07-06, 04:44 PM

So, I've gone and got myself art for a custom playmat <3 Check it out (http://alerane.deviantart.com/art/Commission-Starry-Eyed-Lea-Plath-544533029)

Also, any suggestions of staples to pick up for standard post rotation? Looking at playing a midrange-control deck in standard now legacy and modern are finished.

Ninjaman

2015-07-07, 05:20 AM

So, I've gone and got myself art for a custom playmat <3 Check it out (http://alerane.deviantart.com/art/Commission-Starry-Eyed-Lea-Plath-544533029)

Looks sweet.

Svata

2015-07-07, 07:19 PM

You do not know the true meaning of the phrase "mixed feelings" until you've had to drop out of a competitive REL sealed tournament with an amazing prize pool to keep the Goyf and foil Karn you just opened.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who was playing in a sealed tournament, opened pack with both 'goyf and foil 'goyf in it, refused to pass the pack, walked, and was disallowed from ever going back there.

Tychris1

2015-07-07, 07:21 PM

Svata

2015-07-07, 07:24 PM

Oh, in a heartbeat. Would walk in a heartbeat.

TurboGhast

2015-07-07, 08:14 PM

Reminds me of a friend of mine who was playing in a sealed tournament, opened pack with both 'goyf and foil 'goyf in it, refused to pass the pack, walked, and was disallowed from ever going back there.

How disallowed was he? Just banned form any more sealed or banned from the store itself?

Also, in this scenario, I would likely take the foil 'goyf and trade it for a bunch of stuff / auction it on the internet, buy a not foil 'goyf. I'm not entirely sure, however.

Fable Wright

2015-07-07, 09:51 PM

How disallowed was he? Just banned form any more sealed or banned from the store itself?

Also, in this scenario, I would likely take the foil 'goyf and trade it for a bunch of stuff / auction it on the internet, buy a not foil 'goyf. I'm not entirely sure, however.

Walking, in this case, means that you pick up the packs you have before passing them, withdrawing from the tournament, and keeping both the goyf and the foil Goyf. Would you honestly pass the regular Goyf? What could you possibly open or win that was better?

Svata

2015-07-08, 02:43 AM

He was straight up banned from ever going back to that store. I met him at the new place he went instead, and not even that store's owner blamed him one iota for doing it.

Well that's the last time I play commander against that deck until I get some serious money.
T1:
Me- Godless Shrine (taking shock), Serra Ascendant (feels pretty good about self)
Them- Forest, Fastbond, Forest, Forest, Forest, Courser of Kruphix, Reveals Crucible of Worlds

T2:
Me (worried)- Isolated Chapel, Grand Abolisher, Attack with Serra Ascendant
Them- Wasteland (from top of deck), Scouting Trek, Forest x 26, Reveals Spawnsire of Ulamog, Crucible of Worlds, blows up both of my lands.

Me- Scoops

Sith_Happens

2015-07-08, 09:06 AM

Also, in this scenario, I would likely take the foil 'goyf and trade it for a bunch of stuff / auction it on the internet, buy a not foil 'goyf. I'm not entirely sure, however.

The foil is currently worth two non-foils. Used to be three.

Would you honestly pass the regular Goyf? What could you possibly open or win that was better?

Depends on whether you think you have a decent shot at winning a box and/or >$150 cash, obviously.

He was straight up banned from ever going back to that store.

Wow, that's just idiotic on that store's part. Personally I sat around and watched the tournament until the side events started.

Well that's the last time I play commander against that deck until I get some serious money.
T1:
Me- Godless Shrine (taking shock), Serra Ascendant (feels pretty good about self)
Them- Forest, Fastbond, Forest, Forest, Forest, Courser of Kruphix, Reveals Crucible of Worlds

T2:
Me (worried)- Isolated Chapel, Grand Abolisher, Attack with Serra Ascendant
Them- Wasteland (from top of deck), Scouting Trek, Forest x 26, Reveals Spawnsire of Ulamog, Crucible of Worlds, blows up both of my lands.

Me- Scoops

And that's why Fastbond is banned in Commander.:smalltongue:

Svata

2015-07-08, 01:30 PM

Makes sense. Unlimited lands is terrifying.

Lea Plath

2015-07-08, 02:01 PM

Anyone fancy playing 1v1 commander or vintage with me sometime?

enderlord99

2015-07-08, 02:26 PM

Anyone fancy playing 1v1 commander or vintage with me sometime?

Not me; I'd rather not deliberately meet in person an ettercap I talked to online, even if they are unusually human-looking and/or pretty compared to other ettercaps.

I don't think I'm being cladist; I wouldn't deliberately meet a human I saw online either.

Lea Plath

2015-07-08, 02:45 PM

Not me; I'd rather not deliberately meet in person an ettercap I talked to online, even if they are unusually human-looking and/or pretty compared to other ettercaps.

I don't think I'm being cladist; I wouldn't deliberately meet a human I saw online either.

I have...no idea what you just called me, but call me it again and I will be readjusting your head with 6 foot of solid wood! :D

enderlord99

2015-07-08, 03:10 PM

I have...no idea what you just called me, but call me it again and I will be readjusting your head with 6 foot of solid wood! :D

It means spider-person. I don't see what's wrong with comparing someone to what they are in both their avatar and their signature, but I guess I'll try to remember not to. No guarantees.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-07-08, 07:07 PM

Walking, in this case, means that you pick up the packs you have before passing them, withdrawing from the tournament, and keeping both the goyf and the foil Goyf. Would you honestly pass the regular Goyf? What could you possibly open or win that was better?

Reminds me that a few months back some guy got in trouble at a major tournament for taking a Goyf out of a pack, despite it being out of the colors he was playing, because 1G is SO HARD TO SPLASH for.

Of course this guy, while I understand why he did it, you got a Foil Goyf, in my mind anything after that would just be gravy and I already won, also the sheer "WTF" face the guy I pass the non foil Goyf to would have when I hand him a Goyf..would be worth 200 bucks!

Lea Plath

2015-07-09, 02:36 AM

Reminds me that a few months back some guy got in trouble at a major tournament for taking a Goyf out of a pack, despite it being out of the colors he was playing, because 1G is SO HARD TO SPLASH for.

Of course this guy, while I understand why he did it, you got a Foil Goyf, in my mind anything after that would just be gravy and I already won, also the sheer "WTF" face the guy I pass the non foil Goyf to would have when I hand him a Goyf..would be worth 200 bucks!

It ended up going for like 1.6 grand or was it 16... Either way a lot, with half going to charity.

And the issue was he "moneydrafted" instead of drafted properly at a competitive level. Which I think is fine, the value you get from the foil goyf would give you more shots at GPs.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-07-09, 08:11 AM

Lea Plath

2015-07-09, 09:02 AM

again, I call bullcrap that he "moneydrafted" because Goyf is easy to splash some green in for, heck even if he were not going to use it taking that thing to just keep it away from everyone else is a completely understandable thing.

He said afterwards he was doing it for the money and he took it over Burst Lightning, which is an awesome card for the RW deck he was drafting. Tarmogoyf isn't actually that good in draft to the degree I almost cut it from my cube.

Duck999

2015-07-11, 10:46 PM

I went to a Origins prerelease. I went 3-1 with tribal elves. I picked green, and considered playing green/blue until I saw the tribal I got out of green/black. After all, elves were the reason I picked green. In my last game I got very elfy and very tribally, winning quickly with nothing but elves.

Zombimode

2015-07-12, 02:52 AM

Lea Plath

2015-07-12, 03:00 AM

Trying my hands on Pauper (paper, semi-competitive). After some considerations I settled on a mono-black discard-delve strategy.

Here ist the list. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-07-15-pauper-mbc/)

Main problems: there is NO plan against burn at all, and no sideboard in general.

Suggestions on card selection or card ratios?

I would personally be looking at something like Stinkweed Zombies (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/woo-brews-stinkweed-zombies-in-pauper/) with tweaks.

==

Anyway. Went to Origins Prerelease, I must admit recently stuff hasn't been going well for me in general so I didn't enjoy it as much as I might of, but I still pulled some good stuff and bought 2 intro packs to build casual decks from for my Battlechest. I pulled Erebos's Titan, Nissa, Chandra, Caves and some other value so not too bad there.

==

Another thing I'm building up is my games collection. My friend gave me a bunch of old L5R decks, I've supplemented them with new ones. Right now I'm trying to fill a cabinet with:

-Board games
-My MTG Cube
-10 Casual MTG decks, 1 of each 2 colour combo
-All the duel decks
-Deckbuilding games

==

And finally, I'm looking for people to playtest my game. Anyone interested?

Fable Wright

2015-07-12, 03:08 AM

Trying my hands on Pauper (paper, semi-competitive). After some considerations I settled on a mono-black discard-delve strategy.

Here ist the list. (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-07-15-pauper-mbc/)

Main problems: there is NO plan against burn at all, and no sideboard in general.

Suggestions on card selection or card ratios?

Read the Bones might be better than Bigger Revelation, due to the lower cost and playing better with Dark Rit. Why Terror over Doomblade? Why no Funeral Charm? Essence Harvest might be good with Angler against the mono-burn plan, but not sure about speed. Otherwise, Pharika's Cure/Sorin's Thirst seems okay, at least, Spinning Darkness is somehow a common and, while it has countersynergy with Dredge, is pretty solid against burn, Syphon Life might not be a bad alternate wincon and helps vs burn, Raven's Crime is also decent to keep the discard train coming, and Vampiric Link on a Gurmag Angler seems pretty difficult for burn to deal with, but is a bit corner case.

Not sure about the meta you'll be facing, though, so general sideboard help is difficult. How's your Stompy MU? I hear Crypt Rats is good against them, and solid sideboard tech in general.

Zombimode

2015-07-12, 03:32 AM

Thanks for the suggestions :smallsmile:
I picked Bitter Revelation over Read the Bones because the former puts three cards into the graveyard which from the delve point of view pays almost for itself.
Vampiric Links seems like a very nice sideboard card. I will look into your other suggestions.

Somensjev

2015-07-12, 03:47 PM

so, i just designed what may be the stupides deck i've seen. i mean, it works a little, but i don't know how.
it's an EDH deck that runs all 63 planeswalkers, and a couple other cards, and somehow it just meshes together

i've only playtested it a few times. but at one point i was controlling nearly 20 'walkers on turn 10 :smallconfused:

Commander
Progenitus (not like you'll ever cast it)

land
1 of each ravnica shockland (10 total)
4 swamps
4 mountains
4 islands
4 forests
4 plains

creatures
kozilek, butcher of truth (never gonna cast that. it's just there to replenish your deck if you get low)
(technically the magic:origins planeswalkers, but i'm not counting those here)

artifacts
sol ring
thran dynamo
chromatic lantern

enchantments
prismatic omen (goes nicely with koth and one of the lili's)

planeswalkers
everyone released to date (63)

here's a link (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-07-15-progenitus-superfriends/)

Sith_Happens

2015-07-12, 05:04 PM

Landis963

2015-07-12, 05:38 PM

Now if only there were a five-color 'walker with "This can be a commander.":smallamused:

Ugin, The Blind Eternal - (7)
Planeswalker - Ugin

Ugin is all colors and can be your commander.

<+1> Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
<-X> You may play a spell with converted mana cost X without paying its cost. (This includes additional costs)
<-14> You get an emblem with "Discard a card: add mana to your mana pool equal to the converted mana cost of the discarded card" and "(X): deal X damage to all creatures and all players."

7

Yes, it's broken as hell, why do you ask?

Somensjev

2015-07-13, 01:38 AM

i made the deck worse/better :smalleek:
i took out the mana rocks, and threw in the chain veil, contagion engine, and doubling season
and while i was playtesting, i accidentally went infinite on turn 8 (i'm pretty sure at least, unless i've made a reading fail somewhere)

requirements
xenagos, the reveller
ral zarek
the chain veil
at least 5 creatures
preferably at least one more planeswalker (recomend ugin, for maximum potential)

method
+1 xenagos for (at least) 5 mana, in any combination of red/green
+1 ral, tap/untap random things
+ or - other planeswalkers
pay 4 mana, and activate the chain veil

+1 xenagos for(at least) 5 mana, in any combination of red/green
+1 ral, tap random thing/ untap the chain veil
+ or - other planeswalkers
pay 4 mana, and re-activate the chain veil

ad infinitum

Androgeus

2015-07-13, 06:38 AM

How were people's prereleases? Came 4th at mine with a RW deck. Probably could have got 2nd if I didn't agree to ID the last game. I didn't really look at my pool in much depth, I basically opened my red seeded pack which was all playable stuff, my 1st actual pack had a celestial flare and an iroas's champion which made me basically only pay attention to red and white while opening my other packs.

sonofzeal

2015-07-13, 09:44 AM

Binks

2015-07-13, 10:29 AM

Had fun at my Origins prerelease. Got a pretty unexciting pool, but with a lot of big Green/White bombs (Phalanx and Sentinel in White, Gaea's Revenge, the big Skysnare Spider, and two somberwald alphas in Green) so decided to just build a reasonable midrange GW deck.

Won my first match on the back of Phalanx (4 surprise 2/2's is great when your opponent is at 8 life and just swung in with all their creatures and tapped out). Lost my second match to mana screw (back to back mulligans to 5 to get more than 1 land in starting hand. First game never drew another, ended the game on 2 lands, second game ended up seeing 3 lands total). Lost my third match to the same problem (after going back over my deck and counting to make sure I actually had 17 lands in the deck). Won my fourth match by just running my UB opponent out of removal. 'Wolf, kill it, wolf, kill it, sentinel, kill it, skysnare...out of answers).

Overall was still fun, and I enjoyed the decks I played against (so many GW decks there) but was a little disappointing to lose 2 matches in a row to mana screw. I really hope they do end up adopting some form of new mulligan rule after their test run, even just being able to ship 1 non-land to the bottom in those games may have helped make them more interactive.

Somberwald Alpha ended up my MVP surprisingly. It ruined blocks for my opponents every time it came down and just casually tapping 2 to give something trample is as powerful as ever. Had both in play in one game, just blanks anything with 2 toughness on their side ('I block with grizzly', 'my creature gets +2 power, I give it trample, basically ignore the grizzly')

Somensjev

2015-07-13, 04:38 PM

Doesn't the wording of Chain Veil technically prevent it from working more than once? It's modifying rules text, so multiple instances of "you can do this once" shouldn't stack.

Apparently Oracle disagrees with me though.

i actually thought that too, but gatherer disagreed with me, so i was kinda shocked

nightwyrm

2015-07-13, 05:15 PM

I picked white at my pre-release and went 6-0 with a GW deck. My rares were Archangel of Tithes, Outland Colossus, Relic Seeker, Nissa's Revelation and Hixus, Prison Warden. Also had the 6/6 vigilance, reach spider. No removals though. Just 17 creatures, combat tricks and one aura.

tgva8889

2015-07-14, 05:32 AM

I design a LOT of Commander decks, mainly in my effort to complete my Prismatic Project (one deck of every possible Commander color combination; in combination with my brother), but I'm stuck on interesting ideas for the Sultai deck. I'm trying to come up with an interesting theme, but I'm not really finding anything I want to do. I'm not a big fan of "just jam a bunch of good cards into a deck," but I can't think of a theme I really want to do. I kinda want to do something less obvious and more creative. Anyone have any suggestions?

For those who are curious, my current list in the spoiler:
White: Darien, King of Kjeldor - Suicide Tokens
Blue: Thassa, God of the Sea - Giant Sea Monster Tribal
Black: Phage the Untouchable - Build-Around "Voltron"
Green: Reki, the History of Kamigawa - Mono-Green Control
W/U: Isperia the Inscrutable - Random Fliers (79 base cards, including no fliers, plus 20 fliers randomly drawn from a stack of fun fliers)
U/B: Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker - Mill (Used to be called the Szadeck)
B/R: Rakdos, Lord of Riots - Using Flame Rift as the Best Ritual Ever/Casting free Eldrazi
R/G: Thromok the Instatiable - Tokens/Sacrifice and really really large Thromok
G/W: Chorus of the Conclave - Hatebears
W/B: Obzedat, Ghost Council - Lifegain
U/R: Nin, the Pain Artist - Politico
U/R: Melek, Izzet Paragon - Giant Spells (I have two UR decks because I love Nin)
B/G: Skullbriar, the Walking Grave - Voltron
R/W: Gisela, Blade of Goldnight - Forcing Attacks and Punishing for them
G/U: Vorel of the Hull Clade - A bajillion counters
Bant: Roon of the Hidden Realm - Inoffensive Blink
Jund: Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund - Haste Theme Deck
Naya: Marath, Will of the Wild - Lands and Counters
Jeskai: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest - Prowess Theme Deck
Mardu: Tariel, Reckoner of Souls - Creatureless Control

Lea Plath

2015-07-14, 06:19 AM

What about colour messing? Have a deck focused around changing the colours of cards in combination with stuff like the guild champions etc.

tgva8889

2015-07-14, 06:39 AM

Hmm, that's interesting. I can certainly see the Blue and some of the Black in there, but I'm not sure how much including Green does. I can only think of one Green card that contributes in particular, though I could play some that manipulate colors and such. I am excited by the idea of manipulating land types and related cards with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Color Spray.

Lea Plath

2015-07-14, 07:06 AM

Green likes green. Mormir Vig and the new bellower seem good cards. Add in Loam/the retrace colour change etc

Binks

2015-07-14, 10:45 AM

Doesn't the wording of Chain Veil technically prevent it from working more than once? It's modifying rules text, so multiple instances of "you can do this once" shouldn't stack.
It's not modifying rule text though. It's granting you permission to perform an action this turn that you normally would not be able to perform. It sets up permission for you to, once this turn, per planeswalker, activate one loyalty ability as though none had been activated.

You have, by default, permission to activate a planeswalker ability at sorcery speed as long as none have been activated this turn (306.5d).

Chain Veil gives you permission to activate a planeswalker ability at normal speed once as though none had been activated.

Think of it like getting extra land drops. The rules say you can do it once on your turn, the card says you can do it an additional time. If you get multiple instances of 'you can do this an additional time this turn' they stack without issue.

sonofzeal

2015-07-14, 11:05 AM

It's not modifying rule text though. It's granting you permission to perform an action this turn that you normally would not be able to perform. It sets up permission for you to, once this turn, per planeswalker, activate one loyalty ability as though none had been activated.

You have, by default, permission to activate a planeswalker ability at sorcery speed as long as none have been activated this turn (306.5d).

Chain Veil gives you permission to activate a planeswalker ability at normal speed once as though none had been activated.

Think of it like getting extra land drops. The rules say you can do it once on your turn, the card says you can do it an additional time. If you get multiple instances of 'you can do this an additional time this turn' they stack without issue.

If it said "you can do this an additional time this turn", I'd agree with you. Instead, though, it says "you can do this once (as if you hadn't before)". It's the "once" that's giving me trouble here.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2015-07-14, 11:13 AM

If it said "you can do this an additional time this turn", I'd agree with you. Instead, though, it says "you can do this once (as if you hadn't before)". It's the "once" that's giving me trouble here.

The once is odd, yes. It should be cut completely, since it doesn't actually change the effect.

Every instance of the ability is read as a separate instance:

"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn."

So every time we effectively reset the use of loyalty abilities (which would be default include activates from Chain Veil itself, and then, for every Planeswalker we control, we may use one ability once.

We then untap, use the ability again, and we may repeat the process "as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn," which bypasses any turn-wide single-use that any effect may have applied.

EDIT: Actually, check that. The "once" is important, as otherwise the effect could be interpreted as going infinite. The clause "you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn" might be able to be taken as "no matter how many times I activate this one ability, I treat is as having not been activated this turn," which the addition of "once" prevents.

sonofzeal

2015-07-14, 11:57 AM

The once is odd, yes. It should be cut completely, since it doesn't actually change the effect.

Every instance of the ability is read as a separate instance:

"For each planeswalker you control, you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn."

So every time we effectively reset the use of loyalty abilities (which would be default include activates from Chain Veil itself, and then, for every Planeswalker we control, we may use one ability once.

We then untap, use the ability again, and we may repeat the process "as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn," which bypasses any turn-wide single-use that any effect may have applied.

EDIT: Actually, check that. The "once" is important, as otherwise the effect could be interpreted as going infinite. The clause "you may activate one of its loyalty abilities once this turn as though none of its loyalty abilities have been activated this turn" might be able to be taken as "no matter how many times I activate this one ability, I treat is as having not been activated this turn," which the addition of "once" prevents.

So...... each activation of Chain Veil effectively resets the counter to zero? Meaning, if you activated Chain Veil twice in a row without activating a Planeswalker in between, you could only activate that Planeswalker once more instead of twice?

Binks

2015-07-14, 12:02 PM

If it said "you can do this an additional time this turn", I'd agree with you. Instead, though, it says "you can do this once (as if you hadn't before)". It's the "once" that's giving me trouble here.
The 'once' is just there to note that you may only do it once per activation. For every instance of the chain veil resolving you get a separate permission slip to activate your planeswalkers once. You can cash in as many permission slips as you can get during your turn though, as each one (each instance of the ability resolving) is separate.

Maybe this will help. Each time the ability of the chain veil resolves you can imaging you receive a little permission slip that says 'Once during this turn, I may use one loyalty ability, per planeswalker I control, ignoring the normal rule restriction that prevents me from using multiple loyalty abilities per permanent (but not ignoring the timing restrictions or any other rules governing ability activation).'

It's important to remember that abilities are separate from the object that creates them. The moment the chain veil ability is put on the stack it isn't attached in any way, shape, or form to the veil that created it. You can sac it, blow it up, flicker, bounce, whatever it and you still have the extra planeswalker use until end of turn if the ability resolves. Creating a dozen separate abilities that let you activate a loyalty ability (once during your turn, ignoring restrictions on activating multiple loyalty abilities in a turn) means you can use the abilities a dozen extra times.

So...... each activation of Chain Veil effectively resets the counter to zero? Meaning, if you activated Chain Veil twice in a row without activating a Planeswalker in between, you could only activate that Planeswalker once more instead of twice?
No. There is no counter. Nothing in the game counts the number of activations of loyalty abilities in a turn. The rules state that, by default, you can only use a loyalty ability if that permanent has not used a loyalty ability so far this turn. Have you used a loyalty ability of this permanent this turn, binary yes/no?

Chain veil doesn't give you permission to do it one more time, after the first. It gives you permission to do it once with fewer restrictions than the rules normally have. The permission given by the Chain Veil is broader than the normal rules permission but it does not overwrite or replace that permission.

You have permission (once the chain veil ability resolves) to activate the loyalty abilities of your permanents once when the stack is clear on your turn and the permanent hasn't used any loyalty abilities (306.5d), and once when the stack is clear on your turn regardless of whether it has used any loyalty abilities or not (chain veil). Adding more permissions just adds more of that second type to the list.

To give an example, if I untap, use the chain veil three times, then go to activate my planeswalkers (at sorcery speed), for each one I have the following options:
1. Use rule 306.5d's default permission to activate one loyalty ability of this permanent. I have not yet activated any abilities this turn, so the rules will let me do this.
2. Use the Chain Veil's first activation permission slip which says I may use a loyalty ability of this permanent as though I hadn't used any this turn.
3. Use the Chain Veil's second activation permission slip which says I may use a loyalty ability of this permanent as though I hadn't used any this turn.
4. Use the Chain Veil's third activation permission slip which says I may use a loyalty ability of this permanent as though I hadn't used any this turn.

After my first activation of a loyalty ability I can no longer used the first option (which is why it's generally assumed to be the default first loyalty ability usage) but I can still use 2-4. If I use #2's permission I still have 3 and 4 until I use them.

tgva8889

2015-07-14, 08:36 PM

Green likes green. Mormir Vig and the new bellower seem good cards. Add in Loam/the retrace colour change etc

The problem is that it's very hard to manipulate the color of cards that are in my library or hand, so Momir Vig will be harder to artificially trigger although not impossible. I don't think the new Bellower also can be manipulated, because there's no time between when it triggers and when I can alter the color word in its ability.

Mystic Muse

2015-07-14, 09:11 PM

This is where it would be nice if Painter's Servant weren't banned. :P

tgva8889

2015-07-14, 09:22 PM

On one hand it would be, on the other hand there's too many different cards that would make it really annoying to have available. Better to ban it than allow it and ban all the cards that make it awful, especially when only one of them is a card anyone plays in Commander without it.

Mystic Muse

2015-07-15, 12:12 AM

Honestly, I just think there are neat interactions that can exist with it. There's very little unfair that can be done with it that can't already be done some other way. There's also the argument that anyone who would use the servant to grief isn't suddenly going to not be a griefer just because the card is banned.

The point is moot since it's banned and not coming off, I just think there are plenty of fair neat interactions that can be used with it.

Lea Plath

2015-07-15, 04:26 AM

Srsly. Unban Painter's Servant. Ban Grindstone and Iona. Cards are unfun, yo.

And you simply change Vig so whenever you cast, lets say a green spell, you tutor and draw. You can also add in some land denial elements by messing with the colours they tap for.

Mystic Muse

2015-07-15, 04:46 AM

Srsly. Unban Painter's Servant. Ban Grindstone and Iona. Cards are unfun, yo.

Grindstone doesn't do anything with servant that can't be done already with helm. The only advantage it has is being usable in colorless decks.

Iona shouldn't be banned because of servant or as a swap ban, she should be banned on her own merits. The thing is, at least one member of the RC wants her to stay in because "mono color decks need a weakness"

And there are similar locks to Iona anyway. I don't know what the big deal about Iona-lock is when there are several other brutal locks available, or instant win combos. It's basically just an instant win combo.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-15, 05:26 AM

The thing is, at least one member of the RC wants her to stay in because "mono color decks need a weakness"

http://m.quickmeme.com/img/4d/4dad2d006aec22cbee56d3f69e3e295f13152cd09ee59e545c b1dea22eca2a2c.jpg

Lea Plath

2015-07-15, 05:30 AM

Grindstone doesn't do anything with servant that can't be done already with helm. The only advantage it has is being usable in colorless decks.

Iona shouldn't be banned because of servant or as a swap ban, she should be banned on her own merits. The thing is, at least one member of the RC wants her to stay in because "mono color decks need a weakness"

And there are similar locks to Iona anyway. I don't know what the big deal about Iona-lock is when there are several other brutal locks available, or instant win combos. It's basically just an instant win combo.

Painter+Grindstone is a cheap combo that can go into deck though. Helm is also 4 mana and requires a 2 or 4 mana enchantment that hurts you generally.

Iona is just unfun. Mono decks weakness is they lose splashes and can't deal with stuff effectively. Red cannot kill enchantments. Black cannot kill artifacts or enchantments. White cannot touch the hand. Blue can only bounce and counter. Green doesn't really interact with stack etc. Iona is just unfun.

@SITH: YES :D

Mystic Muse

2015-07-15, 06:19 AM

Black can deal with artifacts, but it requires old cards that aren't very good.

Anyway, that's not my argument. I am fine with Iona being banned, assuming it's on her own merits. Banming 2 cards specifically to unban 1 is a terrible idea though, just on principle. In this case, I doubt anyone would miss them, but in general, ban 2 to unban 1 is bad.

tgva8889

2015-07-15, 09:48 AM

I don't think any of the interesting things that you can do with Painter's Servant are worth allowing it to be legal. While I'm sure Wizards pays some attention, chances are high that eventually they'll print something else that makes Painter's Servant some sort of ridiculously broken engine. At the end of the day, Painter's Servant is the card that makes the really broken and unfun things happen, and banning it so those things don't happen seems like a fine call.

There are many different colorless answers to creatures, a large number of which are commonly played in mono-color decks, so while Iona is really really bad for mono-color decks, she's not the most unbeatable. I'm not a fan of Iona and I don't play her a lot, but given some of the things that are allowed in Commander it doesn't seem unreasonable for her to be allowed. It's like Wake of Destruction; sometimes people deserve it, but you should only bust it out if that's the sort of game the table wants to play.

I probably won't play Momir Vig in particular mostly since he requires me to play creatures that I want to cast and then search for more creatures, and I really just don't want to search my deck that much. But I'll probably mess around with this idea, as it's pretty interesting and I have been looking for a good excuse to play Glamerdye and similar cards. Changing color words is actually super hilarious. Now I just have to figure out some good green spells to play in this deck; most of the ideas I have involve only black and blue cards. Turns out changing colors with the Paladins is really great. By the way, you haven't lived until you've changed a Cabal Coffers from a massive mana production source to a land that taps for 0 mana.

Binks

2015-07-15, 10:51 AM

Shadow of the Sun

2015-07-15, 10:54 AM

Binks

2015-07-15, 11:27 AM

Reread Sphinx's Tutelage. It can only mill out someone who is playing Oops, All Spells! with Painter's Servant.
Oh. I had not seen the non-land clause on that card. You are correct, my bad.

Mystic Muse

2015-07-15, 01:29 PM

Should also be noted that Origins just printed another grindstone effect (Sphinx's Tutelage) so unbanning Painter's Servant means at least 2 bans (I'm not familiar with what card 'helm' refers to, but sounds like it would have to be banned as well, so that would make 3 bans to unban 1 card).

Helm of Obedience is this card.
http://magiccards.info/ai/en/163.html

Basically, this is why the new wording on mill effects is "reveal cards from the top of your library." With helm of obedience, you get an effect out like leyline of the void, or rest in peace. Because the effect specifies put into the graveyard, and the enchantments make it so no cards hit the graveyard, it exiles their entire deck.

This is a currently legal combo. Painter+Grindstone does something similar, but faster. Not sure how it interacts with eldrazi titans, and too tired to check.

Ninjaman

2015-07-15, 03:02 PM

This is a currently legal combo. Painter+Grindstone does something similar, but faster. Not sure how it interacts with eldrazi titans, and too tired to check.

Helm combo or grindstone?

Helm:
The titan is exiled instead of put into the graveyard, therefore it's ability never triggers.

Grindstone:
I think grindstone finishes resolving, putting the entire deck in the yard, then the eldrazi triggers and shuffles itself back inside. They would die if they draw a card in response to that.

Binks

2015-07-15, 03:20 PM

Helm of Obedience is this card...
Ah. I had looked up helm cards in magic and figured that was it, but couldn't see what the problem was. Didn't read it too closely. Interesting.

Grindstone/Eldrazi - Eldrazi trigger can't be put on the stack until Grindstone finishes resolving. With painter's servant out this means the entire deck will be milled by Grindstone, then the Eldrazi trigger is put on the stack and the library is shuffled back up.

9mm

2015-07-15, 06:02 PM

so I can say with all confidence that White Wheenie is a deck now in standard.

3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Archangel of Tithes
4 Consul's Lieutenant
4 Anointer of Champions
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros//Gideon, Battleforged

4 Valorous Stance
3 Swift Reckoning
3 Center Soul
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Secure the Wastes

4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros

18 Plains
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

Sideboard
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Celestial Flare
3 War Horn
4 Radiant Purge

definitely need to cut something for another archangel, and sideboard will probably needs work, but it's been testing well.

Occasional Sage

2015-07-15, 10:20 PM

Fable Wright

2015-07-15, 10:47 PM

Using Zur the Enchanter, I search my deck and retrieve a Flitterstep Eidolon. Can it be put directly into play only as a creature, or can I enchant Zur with it, making him unblockable?

I contend that since CMC specifically looks at the casting cost, not alternates, I'm fine to Bestow the Flitterstep Eidolon on him for free. Other players... disagreed with me.

You can only put it on the battlefield. Flitterstep Eidolon is not an Aura unless it is cast with bestow, and only then until the attached creature dies. As it's not an Aura, and as Zur doesn't force it to enchant a creature, it cannot be attached.

Duck999

2015-07-16, 06:28 AM

If something is put into play (for example with unearth), does it use the stack?

Ninjaman

2015-07-16, 06:40 AM

If something is put into play (for example with unearth), does it use the stack?

The ability is on the stack. The creature is never on the stack.

Occasional Sage

2015-07-16, 06:49 AM

You can only put it on the battlefield. Flitterstep Eidolon is not an Aura unless it is cast with bestow, and only then until the attached creature dies. As it's not an Aura, and as Zur doesn't force it to enchant a creature, it cannot be attached.

I don't understand the distinction you're drawing. Bestowing is still putting on the battlefield, and that's a valid option for the card. Why can that choice not be made?

Mystic Muse

2015-07-16, 07:43 AM

tgva8889

2015-07-16, 02:09 PM

For a helpful summary on how Bestow works, see this MTG Salvation link (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Bestow). Mystic Muse is correct on the short version.

Fable Wright

2015-07-17, 02:17 AM

After testing around with it, I get the feeling that Molten Vortex is the sleeper hit of Magic Origins. Currently running it in my Temur Company deck, and it is just an unbeatable engine in certain matchups. Keeping a hand with it, Epochrasite, Myr Superion and 4 lands against Death and Taxes (that was running an abnormally high number of creatures with toughness 3+) was a stomp, despite having pretty much no other gas for 5 turns or so. It also does serious work against Burn, too, I just discovered. It's an engine in any deck that only needs a few lands to function, without any combos whatsoever it wrecks aggressive weenie strategies on its own.

It's absolutely bonkers with an active Ascendancy, as well, turning whiffs into hands full of straight burn. Will continue to test with this.

Also randomly insane against Lantern Control decks if they fail to find the needle, but that's a rather fringe deck at the best of times.

My current list, for reference:

Engines: 12
4x Aether Vial
3x Temur Ascendancy
2x Molten Vortex
3x Collected Company

Disruption/Filtering: 7
2x Stubborn Denial
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Echoing Truth
1x Faithless Looting

Creatures: 20
3x Epochrasite
1x Imaginary Pet
2x Myr Superion
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Illusory Angel
4x Leatherback Baloth
2x Skaab Ruinator
2x Vexing Sphinx

Lands: 21
2x Breeding Pool
3x Copperline Gorge
2x Flooded Grove
2x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
2x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Feed the Clans
2x Echoing Truth
2x Counterflux
1x Collected Company
3x Curse of the Swine (Testing it against BG/x builds, as Siege Rhinos, Tasigur, and Tarmogoyfs bounce off my goyfs and Leatherback Baloths in a rather embarrassing fashion; this looked higher impact than Pongify or Reality Shift. With the inclusion of Molten Vortex to win bounces, likely going to go down to 2 to add in another Stubborn Denial to the board.)

Ninjaman

2015-07-17, 03:07 AM

Occasional Sage

2015-07-17, 07:01 AM

Zur puts it onto the battlefield. Bestow specifies "if you CAST this card"

Because it's out directly onto the battlrfield, it isn't cast, you can't pay the bestow cost (because again it isn't being cast) and therefore it comes into play as a creature, not an aura.

Ah, THAT makes sense.

For a helpful summary on how Bestow works, see this MTG Salvation link (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Bestow). Mystic Muse is correct on the short version.

Thanks!

Mystic Muse

2015-07-17, 07:26 AM

Well, glad my summary helped!

Sith_Happens

2015-07-17, 07:37 AM

After testing around with it, I get the feeling that Molten Vortex is the sleeper hit of Magic Origins.

What part of "turn one Seismic Assault" is a "sleeper" anything? It's the freaking Holy Grail of cheap damage engines is what it is.

Fable Wright

2015-07-17, 09:21 AM

What part of "turn one Seismic Assault" is a "sleeper" anything? It's the freaking Holy Grail of cheap damage engines is what it is.

The part where Starcity is charging only $3 for it, it's seen no Modern play to my knowledge, and where all the spoiler threads I've seen discussing it viewing it as just Aggro-Loam fuel and nothing more, if that.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-17, 09:31 AM

The part where Starcity is charging only $3 for it, it's seen no Modern play to my knowledge, and where all the spoiler threads I've seen discussing it viewing it as just Aggro-Loam fuel and nothing more, if that.

Of course it's seen no Modern play, it's been in print a week. Give it some time, I'm positive the next Burn deck to top 8 a Pro Tour will have three of it. Okay, probably two. And possibly a single Magmatic Insight in the sideboard, that's a bit of a longer shot though.

Fable Wright

2015-07-17, 09:41 AM

Of course it's seen no Modern play, it's been in print a week. Give it some time, I'm positive the next Burn deck to top 8 a Pro Tour will have three of it. Okay, probably two. And possibly a single Magmatic Insight in the sideboard, that's a bit of a longer shot though.

Burn, as I recall from the spoiler discussions, probably doesn't want it. Takes three cards to replicate one Staggershock, and Staggershock just isn't high enough impact for them right now. The reason I'm calling it as sleeper is because it's not an aggro card, and attempts to slot it into an aggro deck will make it seem mediocre. It's a control/midrange card in disguise. It won't spike until someone brews a Jund list or similar using Bob to fuel it, or some off-the-wall midrange deck using red.

tgva8889

2015-07-17, 11:36 AM

I'm a fan of Molten Vortex, and I'm interested in getting it to work in Standard. My current plans involve using it to break the synergy of Day's Undoing and combining it with Treasure Cruise to keep up both card flow and Delve gas. The card is very interesting, as you have to find a balance between how many lands to play and how many to turn into Shocks.

I think the biggest issue right now is that none of the existing decks want it, so if someone's going to play it they have to make a new deck for it. Few people are willing to put that much effort into Magic, or at least if they are they're not sharing their ideas until those ideas get them a 3-1 in a Magic Online Daily Event.

Fable Wright

2015-07-17, 12:23 PM

I think the biggest issue right now is that none of the existing decks want it, so if someone's going to play it they have to make a new deck for it. Few people are willing to put that much effort into Magic, or at least if they are they're not sharing their ideas until those ideas get them a 3-1 in a Magic Online Daily Event.
I personally think the problem is that no one really cares about ideas if they don't already have at least a 3-1 win in a daily event backing them. I've been tossing around this deck for months, and only one other person so far has tested around with it on Cockatrice. It's surprisingly good, albeit needing more testing against BGx lists since the latest tweaks. Surprisingly good against Burn, beaten some affinity lists game 1 (haven't tested against that many lists, so can't say for certain), wreaks havoc against Delver builds and control shells, has historically had good game against Twin (though taking out one of the Stubborns from the main weakens that MU by an unknown quantity, and forcing them to respect the Molten Vortex strengthens it by another quantity, so...?), and metagame concerns aside, has a lot of sheer power. Collected Company for around 8 power 9 toughness at instant speed on average is pretty difficult for a lot of decks to beat.

Engines: 12
4x Aether Vial
3x Temur Ascendancy
2x Molten Vortex
3x Collected Company

Disruption/Filtering: 7
2x Stubborn Denial
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Echoing Truth
1x Faithless Looting

Creatures: 20
3x Epochrasite
1x Imaginary Pet
2x Myr Superion
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Illusory Angel
4x Leatherback Baloth
2x Skaab Ruinator
2x Vexing Sphinx

Lands: 21
2x Breeding Pool
3x Copperline Gorge
2x Flooded Grove
2x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
2x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Feed the Clans
2x Echoing Truth
2x Counterflux
1x Collected Company
3x Curse of the Swine (Testing it against BG/x builds, as Siege Rhinos, Tasigur, and Tarmogoyfs bounce off my goyfs and Leatherback Baloths in a rather embarrassing fashion; this looked higher impact than Pongify or Reality Shift. With the inclusion of Molten Vortex to win bounces, likely going to go down to 2 to add in another Stubborn Denial to the board.)

Lea Plath

2015-07-17, 05:25 PM

enderlord99

2015-07-17, 07:05 PM

Ninjaman

2015-07-17, 07:52 PM

So I'm looking for a deck for post rotation.

I'm thinking a GB midrange deck, forgoing white. Playing something like
4x Deathmist
4x Den Protector
2x Liliana
Some number of mana dorks
The new menace black elf who kills a creature with uneven P/T
etc

Think that could be viable or is the white splash too good?

After lion rotates rhino will be the only thing you splash for (there are other cards you play now that you already play white, but rhino is what the white splash is for). Rhino is really good, but having played the deck this standard, I will have to say you lose some games to your mana base, and it is going to be really painfull when scry lands are replaced with more fetches, so cutting white seems viable.

Lea Plath

2015-07-18, 03:36 AM

Hey, person who isn't even remotely spider-like: Did you see my apology for calling you a spider-person? You didn't respond to it...

Yus and I was joking.

After lion rotates rhino will be the only thing you splash for (there are other cards you play now that you already play white, but rhino is what the white splash is for). Rhino is really good, but having played the deck this standard, I will have to say you lose some games to your mana base, and it is going to be really painfull when scry lands are replaced with more fetches, so cutting white seems viable.

Yeah.

My issue is getting into threats and how heavy on 3 mana the deck is between walkers, deathmist and ramp. Also lack of good 1 drops.

Fable Wright

2015-07-18, 03:38 AM

Okay. There's a high chance that I'm going to try an IQ this Sunday, if work doesn't call me in. Historically, the meta at this location has a lot of relatively inexperienced players bringing in Affinity and Merfolk, but I'm also expecting a good amount of Twin to show up, and I'm unfortunately predicting that I'm getting at least a round or two against Elves.

Engines: 12
4x Aether Vial
3x Temur Ascendancy
2x Molten Vortex
3x Collected Company

Disruption/Filtering: 7
2x Stubborn Denial
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Echoing Truth
1x Faithless Looting

Creatures: 20
3x Epochrasite
1x Imaginary Pet
2x Myr Superion
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Illusory Angel
4x Leatherback Baloth
2x Skaab Ruinator
2x Vexing Sphinx

Lands: 21
2x Breeding Pool
3x Copperline Gorge
2x Flooded Grove
2x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
2x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Echoing Truth
2x Counterflux
1x Collected Company
2x Curse of the Swine
1x Spellskite
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Stubborn Denial
The list, I think, is going to stay as is for now. I might tinker a bit more with the sideboard, particularly the floating Stubborn Denial and Lightning Bolt and Anger vs Pyroclasm (Anger hits fish with 2 Lords out, Nacatl decks, and tokens with 2+ anthems; Pyroclasm comes quicker and there's less chance of mana screw), but I think I'm sticking with the maindeck as is.

Current sideboard plans are as follows:

OutIn
-3 Lightning Bolts+2 Curse of the Swine
-1 Echoing Truth+1 Collected Company
-1 Faithless Looting+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Spellskite

The problem I face in this matchup is being disadvantaged by 1-for-1s. My 4/4s are smaller than opponents' 4/5s, and when we're bouncing Goyfs and Siege Rhinos/Leatherback Baloths/Tasigurs off each other, the game gets awkward fast. One removal spell on their part is enough to break the symmetry in their favor. At the moment, I'm hoping that Molten Vortex will let me break the symmetry of the bouncing by letting me trade a land for their 4/5 after combat, but if I don't see a lot of bouncing game 1, swapping those out for Counterfluxes. Curse of the Swine is also going in to break through Goyf/Siege walls.

My goal in this matchup is to land a Collected Company for value, and keep up counterspell defenses against removal as fliers swing in for the win. Spellskite is coming in as a removal magnet, essentially another counterspell, that I can grab off a Collected Company. This matchup is uncertain. I have a lot of cards I'm going to force the BGx player to deal with, as a resolved Temur Ascendency that sticks around for a few turns will be lethal. An Aether Vial will be dealt with, or they will be punished for it. On the downside, there are a lot of dead cards that are going to be floating around in my hand, so I'm already disadvantaged against them. Good against Lili, bad in general.

OutIn
-2 Stubborn Denial+2 Ancient Grudge
-3 Temur Ascendancy+3 Anger of the Gods
-1 Echoing Truth+1 Lightning Bolt

I'm honestly uncertain if cutting a Faithless Looting here for a Spellskite is the right move or not. Spellskite turns off Modular for Ravager, screws with Welding Jars, and is another colorless artifact for blocking Etched Champions. But Affinity doesn't run too many ground-pounders off the bat, so it has limited real blocking utility.

I am assuming that the proper course of action in general is to bolt the Overseer/Ravager/Vault Skirge ASAP, and try to win the attrition fight. Epochrasites and Myr Superions act as secret tech here, being colorless and big enough to block and kill Champion, and come off the vial unannounced.

OutIn
-2 Stubborn Denial+3 Anger of the Gods
-1 Echoing Truth+1 Lightning Bolt
-1 Faithless Looting

This matchup is going to be awkward running Islands. I'll try and avoid fetching those when possible. That said, game plan is relatively simple. Bolt the Lords, vial/Company in blockers if I can have them, and possibly try and race the fish if push comes to shove. Sweep as quickly and often as humanly possible.

Considering taking out the Ascendencies, putting back in the Faithless Looting, and trying out the Curse of the Swine. If I can stick it, I can wipe all of the lords with one spell. On the downside, Remand. Any advice?

OutIn
-2 Stubborn Denial+2 Curse of the Swine
-1 Echoing Truth+1 Lightning Bolt
-3 Temur Ascendancy+3 Anger of the Gods

Current plan is I lose unless I land a Molten Vortex with sufficient lands or an Anger of the Gods. Maybe a Curse of the Swine, if I can hit enough lords or mana dorks and am not dead yet.

If anyone had any advice about how to deal with Elves, what priority kill targets there are (I know to bolt/Vortex Heritage Druid, Ezuri, and Archdruid on sight), or just generally how to disrupt their gameplan at all, I would be deeply, deeply grateful.

OutIn
-3 Lightning Bolt+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Molten Vortex+2 Counterflux
-1 Faithless Looting+1 Spellskite
+1 Stubborn Denial.

First thing's first, if I manage to stick a Spellskite in response to a Twin, Twin is in a very, very bad position.

Otherwise, goal is simple. Bounce the Exarch if they try to stick a twin on it, or counter the Twin. Win by Aether Vial or Collected Company.

Under no circumstances, ever, do I tap out for a Temur Ascendancy unless I'm positive I'm safe from the combo.

OutIn
-3 Lightning Bolt+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Molten Vortex+1 Spellskite
-3 Temur Ascendancy+3 Anger of the Gods
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Collected Company

Most times, I would not worry about this matchup. However, this is an IQ, people will bring their relatively cheap decks. The hope is to peel off the enchantments and block the Bogle with fatties so it dies, or to counter the enchantments. That's the hope, at least. The best case scenario is an early Spellskite stealing auras and not eating a Path, but odds of that are low. Still nice that it's a potential option.

I do have plans for Burn (-Truth, -Looting, +Bolt, +Spellskite, maybe sneak in Stubborn Denial for an Ascendancy?), Storm (-2 Denial, -Looting +2 Truth, +Bolt, maybe cut the Ascendancies for the Denials back but I do need to clock them quickly and trying to stop them after they've started is like pouring water on a bonfire; maybe it will help, but it probably won't put it out) and Tron (-2 Vortices, -3 Lightning Bolts, -Looting +2 Counterflux, +1 Company, +2 Curse of Swine, +Stubborn Denial), but those aren't quite popular in the local meta, it is late, and I am too tired to continue doing tables.

So, uh, if anyone had opinions on my sideboard choices, what cards should/shouldn't be in the board, or could give me any tip on how to disrupt Elves' game plan at all or just had general advice against Merfolk or Affinity, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Ninjaman

2015-07-18, 12:22 PM

My issue is getting into threats and how heavy on 3 mana the deck is between walkers, deathmist and ramp. Also lack of good 1 drops.

Warden of the first tree.

Fable Wright

2015-07-19, 12:14 AM

Spent the day testing. Tweaked the list a bit. Turns out, Vortex is good when you get flooded, unsurprisingly, but doesn't really shine unless you've got a draw engine going. Moving to one copy, because it's still fantastic when it works, though it tends to be the first thing boarded out.

If people would like me to stop posting this deck, just let me know. I find it handy to have a resource to hold all of my info so I don't forget it, but I could put this somewhere else if people aren't interested.

Engines: 11
4x Aether Vial
3x Temur Ascendancy
1x Molten Vortex
3x Collected Company

Disruption/Filtering: 7
2x Stubborn Denial
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Echoing Truth
1x Faithless Looting

Creatures: 20
3x Epochrasite
1x Imaginary Pet
2x Myr Superion
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Illusory Angel
4x Leatherback Baloth
2x Skaab Ruinator
2x Vexing Sphinx

Lands: 21
2x Breeding Pool
3x Copperline Gorge
2x Flooded Grove
2x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
2x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Echoing Truth
2x Counterflux
1x Collected Company
2x Curse of the Swine
1x Spellskite
1x Sowing Salt
1x Stubborn Denial

Sideboard:

OutIn
-4 Lightning Bolts+2 Curse of the Swine
-1 Echoing Truth+1 Collected Company
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Spellskite

The problem I face in this matchup is being disadvantaged by 1-for-1s. My 4/4s are smaller than opponents' 4/5s, and when we're bouncing Goyfs and Siege Rhinos/Leatherback Baloths/Tasigurs off each other, the game gets awkward fast. One removal spell on their part is enough to break the symmetry in their favor. At the moment, I'm hoping that Molten Vortex will let me break the symmetry of the bouncing by letting me trade a land for their 4/5 after combat, but if I don't see a lot of bouncing game 1, swapping that and Looting out for Counterfluxes. Curse of the Swine is also going in to break through Goyf/Siege walls.

My goal in this matchup is to land a Collected Company for value, and keep up counterspell defenses against removal as fliers swing in for the win. Spellskite is coming in as a removal magnet, essentially another counterspell, that I can grab off a Collected Company. This matchup is uncertain. I have a lot of cards I'm going to force the BGx player to deal with, as a resolved Temur Ascendency that sticks around for a few turns will be lethal. An Aether Vial will be dealt with, or they will be punished for it. On the downside, there are a lot of dead cards that are going to be floating around in my hand, so I'm already disadvantaged against them. Good against Lili, bad in general.

OutIn
-2 Stubborn Denial+2 Ancient Grudge
-1 Molten Vortex+3 Anger of the Gods
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Faithless Looting

Testing has shown that this matchup is much grindier than anticipated. Goal is to make one-for-one trades until I stick an Ascendancy, then flood the board rapidly and finish off Affinity as soon as possible. Game is surprisingly winnable G1 somewhere between 40 and 55% win rate, and they don't have hate to board in. Feeling pretty decent about this.

OutIn
-2 Stubborn Denial+3 Anger of the Gods
-1 Echoing Truth

This matchup is going to be awkward running Islands. I'll try and avoid fetching those when possible. That said, game plan is relatively simple. Bolt the Lords, vial/Company in blockers if I can have them, and possibly try and race the fish if push comes to shove. Sweep as quickly and often as humanly possible. Thinking that this matchup is going to be somewhat similar to Affinity, so definitely keeping in the Ascensions.

OutIn
-2 Stubborn Denial+2 Curse of the Swine
-1 Echoing Truth+3 Anger of the Gods
-1 Molten Vortex
-1 Faithless Looting

Current plan is to bolt every mana dork and Ezuri I see, and clear the board as soon as an appealing target presents itself. Hoping the 'bolt the dork' strategy works, because nothing else has so far.

OutIn
-3 Lightning Bolt+2 Echoing Truth
-2 Molten Vortex+2 Counterflux
-1 Faithless Looting+1 Spellskite
+1 Stubborn Denial.

First thing's first, if I manage to stick a Spellskite in response to a Twin, Twin is in a very, very bad position.

Otherwise, goal is simple. Bounce the Exarch if they try to stick a twin on it, or counter the Twin. Win by Aether Vial or Collected Company.

Under no circumstances, ever, do I tap out for a Temur Ascendancy unless I'm positive I'm safe from the combo.

OutIn
-4 Lightning Bolt+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Molten Vortex+1 Spellskite
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Collected Company

Most times, I would not worry about this matchup. However, this is an IQ, people will bring their relatively cheap decks. The hope is to peel off the enchantments and block the Bogle with fatties so it dies, or to counter the enchantments. That's the hope, at least. The best case scenario is an early Spellskite stealing auras and not eating a Path, but odds of that are low. Still nice that it's a potential option.

OutIn
-1 Echoing Truth+1 Stubborn Denial
-1 Molten Vortex+1 Spellskite

Burn is in a bad place this matchup. Cheap counters to thwart their burn, fat creatures they can't easily burn their way through, a clock that takes away inevitability. My hubris will make me lose, obviously, but I am feeling okay with this matchup.

OutIn
-1 Molten Vortex+2 Echoing Truth
-1 Faithless Looting+1 Stubborn Denial
-1 Lightning Bolt

This matchup is a bit of an odd duck. The key moment to counterspell in the middle of a burn chain is in the second or third spell of going off, preferably a ritual. To win, keep them off their Goblin Electromancers and Pyromancer's Ascensions. So, going down to 3 bolts, as I only have one target for it (Electromancer), and Truths act as versatile ways of hitting the Pyro Ascension or Electromancer when I need it. Wish I had more testing here so I had more experience with disrupting them, but this is where I'm at.

OutIn
-4 Lightning Bolt+2 Counterflux
-1 Molten Vortex+2 Curse of the Swine
-1 Faithless Looting+1 Stubborn Denial
-1 Echoing Truth+1 Sowing Salt
+1 Collected Company

This is the only matchup I had room to take out another card for a sideboard thing for, so Sowing Salts comes in for Faithless Looting. Plan is to keep them off Tron, but if they have it, just keep them off Karn/Oblivion Stone. If I can't, hold onto a Company for after the O-Stone destroys the world, swing in. Curse of Swine is for dealing with Eldrazi or Wurmcoil.

OutIn
-4 Lightning Bolt+2 Counterflux
-1 Molten Vortex+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Spellskite
+1 Sowing Salt

Zero experience with this matchup. So, I'm just going to assume that I keep the Counterflux for the Scapeshift to make them dig for another one, fight their Cryptics with Stubborn Denial, make fatties, and swing in for the win. Aether Vial is probably key. Spellskite is there because I have nothing better to put in, and it might screw with their Valakut math. Their Mountains are only Shocks, which can be countered for U with it on the field. Also acts to soak Cryptic bounces, and screws with Turn & Burn or trying to double bolt a thing.

As always, hoping for feedback, though I realize it's unlikely I'll get any before the IQ today.

unseenmage

2015-07-19, 05:34 AM

My Modern version of Sisay EDH is nearly done.
Would appreciate some input on how to improve it.
This is built with what I have available so please bear with me.

Modern Bant Legendaries Deck

Mainboard:
1x Rhys the Redeemed
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1x Noble Hierarch

3x Hero's Blade
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Time of Need
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit

2x Honor Worn Shaku
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Omnath, Locus of Mana
2x Reki, the History of Kamigawa
1x Yasova Dragonclaw
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Jenara, Asura of War

1x Day of Destiny
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Grand Arbiter Augustine IV
1x Rafiq of the Many

1x Heroes' Podium
1x Karametra, God of Harvests
1x Kruphix, God of Horizons
1x Elsh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

Land:
1x Hall of the Bandit Lord
1x Utaidake, the Cloud Keeper
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge
2x Flooded Grove
2x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Temple Garden
2x Breeding Pool
2x Azorious Chancery
2x Selesnya Sanctuary
2x Simic Growth Chamber
2x Thespian's Stage

Sideboard:
3x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2x Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Masako the Humorless
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Dosan the Falling Leaf
1x Hokori, Dust Drinker
1x Sakashima the Impostor
1x Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1x Lavinia of the Tenth
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons

Maybeboard:
1x Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Shun Yun, the Silent Tempest
1x Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
2x Mangara of Corondor
1x Gwyfa Hazid, Profiteer
1x Helm of Kaldra
1x Shield of Kaldra
1x Sword of Kaldra
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
1x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1x Dragonlord Ojutai
2x Elsh Norn, Grand Cenobite

9mm

2015-07-19, 11:08 AM

I am surprisingly disappointed the trubo fog deck didn't make it to day 2 at SCG Chicago. That said B/W artifact control and 5 color rally are still going strong.

Fable Wright

2015-07-19, 02:39 PM

My Modern version of Sisay EDH is nearly done.
Would appreciate some input on how to improve it.
This is built with what I have available so please bear with me.

Modern Bant Legendaries Deck

Hm. At the moment, I would strongly consider cutting down on your higher end. You have some great low cost stuff; Hero's Blade in this shell is great, I love Yasovna here, Reki is good card draw if you anticipate the game going late. Time of Need only hits legendary creatures, not any permanents, though, so be aware of that with regards to Day of Destiny and Hero's Podium. Speaking of which, I would recommend cutting back on Kruphix, Karametra, Podium, Rhys, Grand Arbiter, Avacyn, Iona, and 1-2 lands. Probably Hall of the Bandit Lord. I would also cut down bounce lands, because they are devastatingly slow in the format. I would also add more disruption to the list; at the very least, a set of paths, maybe a couple other tools.

Speaking of brewing, today I learned that my deck mulligans terribly. When it has a decent hand, it can play the field very well indeed. I just need to up consistency. That probably means cutting my two main Stubborn Denials for more lands and Vortex for another Looting, but that means that I won't be able to interact with Twin if it tries to go off on a Deceiver Exarch, outside of bluffing the counter or the singleton Echoing Truth, or the off chance of double-burn-spell. Anyone have advice? I'd like to add in a couple Remands, too, but I'm not sure where I'd find room for them.

Occasional Sage

2015-07-19, 06:40 PM

At work we're putting together Pauper decks, probably with a fair percentage of multiplayer games going on. I'm planning a BW "Drink Your Milkshake" deck, and am curious about input.

People who work across from Lazy Boy Brewing, don't open the spoiler!

4 Basilica Guards
4 Basilica Screecher
4 Kingpin's Pet
4 Tithe Drinker
4 Vectis Dominator
4 Gossamer Chains
4 Pillory of the Sleepless
4 Cage of Hands
4 Harsh Sustenance
4 Conviction
4 Ethereal Armor
land

I like the return-and-recast nature of many of the enchantments, coupled with Extort. Lockdown enchantments and Ethereal Armor seem like a natural combo, edging out adding artifact lands and Porcelain Legionnaires to boost Cranial Plating by a slim margin (mostly the recastability).

Suppression Bonds
Shackles
Edge of the Divinity
Soul Link
Nightsky Mimic
Cranial Plating
Porcelain Legionnaire
Ancient Den
Vault of Whispers
Harmless Assault
Mourning Thrull
Ashes to Ashes
Executioner's Swing
Harvest Gwyllion

Soul Link is perhaps the best example of exploiting early phrasing I can expect to get away with, without getting punched into the ceiling. Mimic doesn't work for defense except with Sustenance, or I'd LOVE it. The Gwylion and its Wither is great, but there are enough creature suppression tricks already to make it less than cost effective.

Suggestions? Arguments?

Octopusapult

2015-07-19, 08:16 PM

Anyone else in here waiting for the Free-to-play for Origins on the Xbone or Steam? They announced the release this weekend sometime (with a really helpful date of 17-19) but I'm still not seeing it.

Svata

2015-07-19, 08:42 PM

So, playing in a sealed tournament right now on MTGO, and I draw 13 of my 17 lands. Needless to say, the opponent wiped the floor with me. Mana flood sucks.

9mm

2015-07-19, 08:50 PM

So, playing in a sealed tournament right now on MTGO, and I draw 13 of my 17 lands. Needless to say, the opponent wiped the floor with me. Mana flood sucks.

obvious solution is to play lands.dek.

tgva8889

2015-07-20, 10:11 AM

I personally think the problem is that no one really cares about ideas if they don't already have at least a 3-1 win in a daily event backing them. I've been tossing around this deck for months, and only one other person so far has tested around with it on Cockatrice. It's surprisingly good, albeit needing more testing against BGx lists since the latest tweaks. Surprisingly good against Burn, beaten some affinity lists game 1 (haven't tested against that many lists, so can't say for certain), wreaks havoc against Delver builds and control shells, has historically had good game against Twin (though taking out one of the Stubborns from the main weakens that MU by an unknown quantity, and forcing them to respect the Molten Vortex strengthens it by another quantity, so...?), and metagame concerns aside, has a lot of sheer power. Collected Company for around 8 power 9 toughness at instant speed on average is pretty difficult for a lot of decks to beat.

I would say that the bigger issue is that the card doesn't exist on Magic Online yet, which is where 90% of major testing happens. Everyone who's testing the card now isn't really sharing their ideas because they're doing it in person. A lot of people testing the card are keeping their data secret because it's for a Pro Tour or a major Modern tournament and they don't want to reveal their technology if the card is good.

Binks

2015-07-20, 10:56 AM

Anyone else in here waiting for the Free-to-play for Origins on the Xbone or Steam? They announced the release this weekend sometime (with a really helpful date of 17-19) but I'm still not seeing it.
It was released this weekend...for IPad and IPhone. Other platform releases are 'coming soon' and will probably be dropping this week or next based on the rumors that the game will be fully released in July.

I'm hoping it'll be good but to be honest the quality of the Duels games has been dropping ever since 2012/2013. The decks in 2014 were dull as could be (though that game was redeemed a bit by the storyline and unique final battle) and 2015's big new deck builder option was handicapped a lot. I'm hoping this one will be good, and I'm going to give it a shot (I've have purchased and played literally everything duels related since it started, so no reason not to try to FtP version, I love playing mtg against AIs).

The good news, IMHO, is that the the business model of dueling earning coins you can spend on booster packs to build your decks or paying RL cash for those coins is a workable one. I've played a few games before with a similar model (and gotten hooked on one, Infinity Wars, which has remained entertaining with the same model for quite a while now) and as long as Wizards doesn't mess up the pricing badly it should be alright. Giving everyone access to the same toys but letting people pay cash to get to them sooner is profitable without disrupting the balance too badly. As long as the boosters are actually randomized (and they don't do something stupid like limiting how many copies of a mythic can be out there) it's a functional system that incentivizes players to give Wizards money without punishing players

CantigThimble

2015-07-20, 12:58 PM

So, my casual gaming group is having a chaos draft, 1 pack from 33 different sets with 11 drafters. I realize 11 isn't the ideal number for a draft but no one in our group would even consider missing it. Here's the list of packs I have for this:

Round 1: Modern Large Sets
Origins
Dragons of Tarkir
Khans of Tarkir
2014 Core Set
Conspiracy
Theros
Scars of Mirrodin
Zendikar
Shards of Alara
Time Spiral
Mirrodin

Round 2: Older Sets
Judgement
Visions
Prophecy
Legions
Chronicles
2x Homelands (as 1 pack)
2x Fallen Empires
Invasion
Nemesis
Odessey
Scourge

Round 3: Modern Small Sets
Saviors of Kamigawa
Alara Reborn
Guildpact
Betrayers of Kamigawa
Eventide
Dark Ascension
Gatecrash
Dragon's Maze
Born of the Gods
Journey into Nyx
Fate Reforged

The main thing I want to know is how can I set up some prizes. Obviously I can do it based on wins but some people in our group don't like that so much, they just have less fun when playing exclusively to win. So what kind of things can I give prizes for that are more likely to promote the general sillyness that is gauranteed to ensue here? Best theme deck? Most colors played? Most absurd boardstate? Winning a game using a card from Fallen Empires or Homelands?

Octopusapult

2015-07-20, 04:24 PM

The main thing I want to know is how can I set up some prizes. Obviously I can do it based on wins but some people in our group don't like that so much, they just have less fun when playing exclusively to win. So what kind of things can I give prizes for that are more likely to promote the general sillyness that is gauranteed to ensue here? Best theme deck? Most colors played? Most absurd boardstate? Winning a game using a card from Fallen Empires or Homelands?

Create a list of challenges and award players based on completing those challenges maybe?

Somensjev

2015-07-21, 10:57 PM

okay, i've got a rules question to ask:

it's about daretti, scrap savant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389478)'s emblem which states "Whenever an artifact is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, return that card to the battlefield at the beginning of the next end step."

how exactly would this work with something like mycosynth lattice (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50527) or liquimetal coating (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=389578)? :smallconfused: my first instinct is to say that they don't interact at all, but i've been wrong before

i suppose my question boils down to. "if a permanent is an artifact on the battlefield, and is sent to the grave. would this emblem bring it back if it's no longer an artifact in the grave?"

i ask because daretti may only be useful in my superfriends deck if he works with these things

squab

2015-07-21, 11:15 PM

Hmm. Lessee. "Whenever an artifact is put into your graveyard from the battlefield" So. Is it going to your graveyard? Yes. From the battlefield? Yes. Okay, is it an artifact? Yup. Okay. So far it checks out. "return that card to the battlefield " So. That thing. That went to the graveyard. It's a card? Yes? It returns.

Way I read it, when an artifact is about to leave your battlefield to go to the graveyard (regardless of why it's an artifact) Daretti's ability targets it. It grabs that card, and at the beginning of the next end step it yoinks that card back. Regardless of whether or not it's an artifact at this point.

And I'm excited to send a batch of Pucatrade cards out tomorrow. Should hopefully be getting a bunch of DRAGONS eventually. Trying to build a casual, Timmy, not-very-competitive DRAGON deck.

Binks

2015-07-22, 11:21 AM

I suppose my question boils down to. "if a permanent is an artifact on the battlefield, and is sent to the grave. would this emblem bring it back if it's no longer an artifact in the grave?"
Yes. It doesn't care what the thing became when it finished going to the graveyard, all that matters is it was an artifact on the battlefield, it went to your graveyard, and the card is still in the graveyard when it goes to retrieve it. Any changes made to the card in your graveyard are irrelevant as the emblem doesn't ask about the current status of the card.

It's a 'dies' trigger (not literally, but the same idea) so it looks back in time at the status of the card the last moment it was in play and asks 'was that an artifact?'. If the answer is yes then it sets up a delayed trigger of 'at the beginning of the next end step, put this card on the battlefield'. Nothing in the ability cares if the card is currently an artifact in your graveyard.

EDIT: On the topic of Magic Duels it looks like they're going to just barely squeak in on their July 2015 promise for a steam release. Game Informer puts the steam release date as July 29th at the end of their review.
Source (http://www.gameinformer.com/games/magic_duels_origins/b/pc/archive/2015/07/22/an-enchanting-new-direction-for-digital-magic.aspx)

tgva8889

2015-07-23, 02:25 PM

I'm so upset at myself that I didn't get Hangarback Walkers when they were $2. Now they're $8, and this is the second time I've lost the opportunity to get a card I knew was much cheaper than it should have been.

Ninjaman

2015-07-23, 04:21 PM

Octopusapult

2015-07-24, 05:08 AM

EDIT: On the topic of Magic Duels it looks like they're going to just barely squeak in on their July 2015 promise for a steam release. Game Informer puts the steam release date as July 29th at the end of their review.
Source (http://www.gameinformer.com/games/magic_duels_origins/b/pc/archive/2015/07/22/an-enchanting-new-direction-for-digital-magic.aspx)

I just wish someone would announce the date officially. I don't understand why I have to call Scooby and the gang to find the release date for a game the month it's supposed to come out. Especially if this is supposed to be the end-all for their online games you'd think they'd want people to be excited about it rather than in the dark...

I mean I live paycheck to paycheck so a F2P is pretty much my only chance to play magic without some disposable income so I'm very much on the outside looking in right now and it's killing me. XD

Dhavaer

2015-07-24, 06:47 AM

Sooo... I bought a stupid amount of Origins boosters. I'd like to sell some of the card if I draw anything good. So, two questions:

1) Are there any cards in particular I should look out for? I already have a Kytheon and a Hangarback Walker.

2) What is the usual method of selling cards? Ebay?

Mystic Muse

2015-07-24, 07:00 AM

I've used EBay quite a bit and had almost no problem. If a card is particularly expensive, send it with tracking. There are a small number of players who WILL say they never received it.

Bucky

2015-07-24, 04:51 PM

We have a tradition here of looking for infinite combos in a set whenever it comes out. I've looked through Magic Origins, but don't see anything promising. Do any of you have one?

Dhavaer

2015-07-24, 07:11 PM

Well, I popped open a Pyromancer's Goggles, so it's red deck time. I have lots of cards for it, too many cards in fact. This is what I'm thinking:

Creatures
2x Monastery Swiftspear (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386608)
4x Mage-Ring Bully (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398426)
1x Abbot of Keral Keep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398411)
2x Bloodfire Expert (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386492)
4x Scab-Clan Berserker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398461)
1x Acolyte of the Inferno (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398574)

Other
1x Magma Spray (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=380452)
1x Spite of Mogis (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=380505)
4x Titan's Strength (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398680)
4x Fiery Impulse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398516)
4x Lightning Strike (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383299)
1x Searing Blood (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=378483)
2x Twin Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394733)
1x Magma Jet (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=393853)
4x Dragon Fodder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398647)
2x Bolt of Keranos (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=378461)
2x Hordeling Outburst (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386560)
2x Arc Lightning (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394068)
2x Goblinslide (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386547)
4x Act of Treason (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398578)
1x Exquisite Firecraft (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398513)
1x Pyromancer's Goggles (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398427)
4x Chandra's Fury (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398632)

It's pretty straightforward: burn things to activate prowess and eliminate blockers or burn the opponent directly. There are only five cards over three mana, the goggles and the four furies, so I shouldn't be overly reliant on getting a lot of mana, which is good because I have no card draws (although quite a lot of scrying). I'm thinking of getting rid of some of the cards I only have one or two of (twin bolt, magma jet, spite of mogis) and maybe the treasons, although I kind of want them in case of blockers too big to burn down. I also have a pair of Dragon-Style Twins which I liked, but thought might be too pricey. Suggestions?

Svata

2015-07-24, 07:43 PM

Since you have a bunch of things that generate goblin tokens already, why not toss in a rabblemaster or two? He's down to about $10. As of this posting there's a lightly played one on TCGplayer for $8.74. Also, maybe replace the Magma Spray with a Wild Slash?

Dhavaer

2015-07-24, 08:31 PM

Unfortunately I have neither, and having just spent $200.90 on cards yesterday I'd rather not spend money on more cards when I'm looking to get rid of some.

I'm currently thinking of dropping the Magma Spray, Spite of Mogis, Searing Blood, Twin Bolt, Magma Jet and Arc Lightning. Then I just have to drop four more to get to 40, by my count. 20 mountains sounds good. Should I drop the Treasons?

Svata

2015-07-24, 10:14 PM

I'd drop the treasons.

tgva8889

2015-07-25, 12:08 AM

We have a tradition here of looking for infinite combos in a set whenever it comes out. I've looked through Magic Origins, but don't see anything promising. Do any of you have one?

This solely from Magic Origins? As far as I can tell, there's no conventional ways to go infinite because everything theoretically repeatable requires mana, and there's no mana engine in Origins that I can find.

Thus far I have Jace's Sanctum allowing you to generate mana theoretically with any number of Dark Petition, Animist's Awakening, and/or Great Aurora (although you can't do so infinitely). Unfortunately the only cards that allow you to loop anything are Reclaim and Day's Undoing, and one of those definitely won't let you do so infinitely, or allow you to easily do anything once you've looped one time. None of these cards are red, so unfortunately Pyromancer's Goggles doesn't work with them. I think that if you want to go actually infinite, the only way to get there involves using Talent of the Telepath and your opponent wanting to help you succeed. Liliana's emblem might also work, and Alhamarret's Archive is certainly an appealing card if you want to go infinite, as multiplying your card drawing will help you chew through your deck efficiently.

Edit: Oooh, wait. We can theoretically put a LOT of copies of Flameshadow Conjuring into play via Starfield of Nyx and Day's Undoing allowing you to skip the beginning of the end step that causes exile the copies. My current count is 30 (The first triggers itself, making 1 token, the second triggers itself plus the other two, the third triggers itself plus the other 6, and the fourth triggers itself plus the other 14). With these we can make an extremely large number of Jace's Sanctums (each one makes potentially 30 copies, so 124?), and with those we can do quite a bit with an X spell of choice. Unfortunately I can't find a loop or anything.

nightwyrm

2015-07-25, 02:36 PM

Edit: Oooh, wait. We can theoretically put a LOT of copies of Flameshadow Conjuring into play via Starfield of Nyx and Day's Undoing allowing you to skip the beginning of the end step that causes exile the copies. My current count is 30 (The first triggers itself, making 1 token, the second triggers itself plus the other two, the third triggers itself plus the other 6, and the fourth triggers itself plus the other 14). With these we can make an extremely large number of Jace's Sanctums (each one makes potentially 30 copies, so 124?), and with those we can do quite a bit with an X spell of choice. Unfortunately I can't find a loop or anything.

The copies will go away at your opponent's end step since Conjuring does not specify "your next end step".

tgva8889

2015-07-25, 06:12 PM

That's true. I forgot Day's Undoing doesn't actually counter the ability, unlike some other ways to end the turn you can use, it just skips the step. Well, assuming we start with an obscene amount of mana, we can still make a hell of a lot of Flameshadow Conjurings.

Dhavaer

2015-07-26, 09:44 PM

If I fill my deck to the brim with draw effects, would that make having >60 cards less of a weakness? I'm building a blue sphinx mill deck and I'm not sure what to drop, if anything.

Creatures
4x Faerie Miscreant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398459)
4x Jeskai Sage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391864)
2x Runed Servitor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398643)
2x Jhessian Thief (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398536)

Other
2x Divination (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383227)
4x Artificer's Epiphany (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398462)
4x Sphinx's Tutelage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398520)
4x Dreadwaters (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398405)
1x Talent of the Telepath (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398483)
1x Alhammarret's Archive (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398564)

The above should be more or less self-explanitory, I think, it's all either draw to fuel Tutelage or a separate source of milling. My problem is that it needs something else, and I'm not sure what. My first idea was to throw in two Swords of the Animist to fuel Dreadwaters and a bunch of tap-doesn't-untap cards like Send to Sleep, so the Thieves and whatever is carrying the swords can attack with impunity.

Creatures
1x Ornithopter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383334)
2x Frost Lynx (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383248)

Other
2x Sword of the Animist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398492)
3x Send to Sleep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398545)
4x Crippling Chill (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386510)

I like the tapping, but it does have the problem that it can't really get going for quite a while - at best the first thief + sword attack is going to be on turn four, and that wouldn't give me a chance to play Tutelage. So my second idea is to embrace the slow and load up on counters and various defences to keep me alive.

Spells
4x Hydrolash (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398666)
4x Clash of Wills (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398542)
2x Bone to Ash (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398539)
2x Contradict (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394523)
4x Calculated Dismissal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398480)
2x Negate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398629)
1x Cancel (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386502)
1x Dissolve (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373557)
1x Nullify (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=378417)

Artifacts
1x Orbs of Warding (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398551)
4x Prism Ring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398646)

So, should I go with tap? Counter? Counter, but add the Swords (I think they'll help, I don't need to do damage to trigger them)? Should I drop the thieves if I go counter? Should I add Jace's Sanctums, I have two? If I go counter, should I add more Negates, Contradicts and Bone to Ashes? I didn't because they were either situational or expensive.

CN the Logos

2015-07-27, 09:39 AM

If I fill my deck to the brim with draw effects, would that make having >60 cards less of a weakness? I'm building a blue sphinx mill deck and I'm not sure what to drop, if anything.

Not really, because the deck would still be better if it had fewer cards in it. And Sweet Yawgmoth in Phyrexia,this thing's got fifty-seven cards with no lands listed yet. :smalleek: Most EDH decks don't want fifty-seven nonland cards want about forty actual lands unless they have a very low curve or a ton of mana rocks. Your list here has neither of these things.

Om a quasi-related note, what format is this for? Because if you're trying to build something competitive, you should know that with very few exceptions, mill is a trap for new players or a way for bored people who've gotten tired of winning the regular way to do so with the equivalent of a hand tied behind their back. You're basically telling your opponent, "You've got sixty life instead of twenty, and unlike regular life that can be whittled down by any creature that has power and doesn't have defender, your life can only be touched by special cards I've put in the deck for that purpose." I'm not saying "don't play it," because with all of the above in mind, you may have fun playing it. Just know what you're getting into. I thought it was a great idea when I was a newb, no one had the heart to tell me otherwise, and I had to learn from painful experience. :smallsigh:

I have to get to work now, so thoughts on specific cards will have to wait until I return, if someone else hasn't done it by then.

Svata

2015-07-27, 09:54 AM

Eh, I run 35-40 lands in most of my EDH decks. Works pretty well most of the time. Then again, ten or so are duals. Also, sol ring and a mana elf or two in the ones involving green.

Ninjaman

2015-07-27, 11:48 AM

...this thing's got fifty-seven cards with no lands listed yet. :smalleek: Most EDH decks don't want fifty-seven nonland cards unless they have a very low curve or a ton of mana rocks.

fifty-seven nonlands means forty-two lands, which sounds good for a deck with no mana rocks, but as most EDH decks have ramp they have 38-40 lands.

Svata

2015-07-27, 01:20 PM

So, what's everyone think of Day's Undoing? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398652)

tgva8889

2015-07-27, 01:40 PM

So, what's everyone think of Day's Undoing? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398652)

I think the card is powerful, but you need to have a good reason to play it. The things that look most interesting to me so far are the Turbo-Fog deck, Molten Vortex, or a deck that can take advantage of drawing 7 cards. There are a few cards that trigger off of drawing a stack of cards at once, specifically Chasm Skulker and Horizon Chimera, and that might be a deck. Molten Vortex seems like an easier way to take advantage of refilling your hand, though.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-07-27, 02:35 PM

So, what's everyone think of Day's Undoing? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398652)

Could have a place in R/U decks, after you have exhausted your burn and need to refill your hand with instants.

Ninjaman

2015-07-27, 02:52 PM

I have heard people talk about it in affinity.

Lea Plath

2015-07-27, 03:34 PM

A legacy affinity deck top 8ed with it.

I'm thinking of playing 1-2 copies in scapeshift,

Androgeus

2015-07-27, 06:02 PM

There are a few cards that trigger off of drawing a stack of cards at once, specifically Chasm Skulker and Horizon Chimera, and that might be a deck.

Ending the turn now causes any ablities that are still waiting to go on the stack to cease to exist. So things like Chasm Skulker and it's ilk don't work with Day's Undoing if you cast it on your turn.

tgva8889

2015-07-27, 10:32 PM

Ending the turn now causes any ablities that are still waiting to go on the stack to cease to exist. So things like Chasm Skulker and it's ilk don't work with Day's Undoing if you cast it on your turn.

Man, I used to know how the rules work, but I've clearly proven that I don't. Well don't combine Day's Undoing with those cards then.

CN the Logos

2015-07-28, 01:19 AM

Eh, I run 35-40 lands in most of my EDH decks. Works pretty well most of the time. Then again, ten or so are duals. Also, sol ring and a mana elf or two in the ones involving green.

fifty-seven nonlands means forty-two lands, which sounds good for a deck with no mana rocks, but as most EDH decks have ramp they have 38-40 lands.

Mea culpa. I was waking up, getting ready for work, and numbers decided to abandon my brain. That and I think I've honestly started counted mana rocks as lands in all but type now, so my thoughts were "forty actual lands plus five things that are pretty much lands means fifty-five nonland cards." Still wrong, but you can grok my intended meaning, yes? :smalltongue:

In any case it doesn't change the central point, which is that a deck which is over a hundred cards is an awful idea unless you're playing Battle of Wits (which is still an awful idea, but also a totally awesome one, making you a man among men or woman among women, whichever). Especially when a not insignificant chunk of those cards are things like Crippling Chill, Hydrolash, and Prism Ring. I mean, if this is kitchen table, that's cool. I love me some casual silliness. I'll offer suggestions to maximize that, if it's what Dhavaer is going for. But repeatedly failing to get the cards you need and doing nothing while the other player kicks the crap out of you because you've got such a small chance of getting the right thing isn't the sort of thing most people consider fun.

In other news, finally got some excellent proxies made for my EDH generals. Some might require knowledge of the artwork's inspiration to appreciate, but I'm really pleased with all of them. The name in the artist space, BaronVonVaderham, is the screen name of the guy who edited the artwork to create the cards and then printed them onto actual cards for me; artwork was just taken from wherever I could find it. No disrespect to the original artists intended, these are solely for my personal use in games with my local EDH group and neither I nor the Baron are going to claim the original art is ours. I also own actual copies of the proxied cards.

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/Logan_Morgan/Athreos-God%20of%20Passage_zps5i1xrfp3.jpg (http://s570.photobucket.com/user/Logan_Morgan/media/Athreos-God%20of%20Passage_zps5i1xrfp3.jpg.html)

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/Logan_Morgan/Bruna-Light%20of%20Alabaster_zpsqxw3ryjc.jpg (http://s570.photobucket.com/user/Logan_Morgan/media/Bruna-Light%20of%20Alabaster_zpsqxw3ryjc.jpg.html)

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/Logan_Morgan/Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft_zpsz4kuzuob.jpg (http://s570.photobucket.com/user/Logan_Morgan/media/Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft_zpsz4kuzuob.jpg.html)

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/Logan_Morgan/Ghave-Guru%20of%20Spores_zpsxwj0aeln.jpg (http://s570.photobucket.com/user/Logan_Morgan/media/Ghave-Guru%20of%20Spores_zpsxwj0aeln.jpg.html)

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/Logan_Morgan/Horobi-Deaths%20Wail_zpsjyzwrknw.jpg (http://s570.photobucket.com/user/Logan_Morgan/media/Horobi-Deaths%20Wail_zpsjyzwrknw.jpg.html)

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/Logan_Morgan/Muzzio-Visionary%20Architect_zpsfy95d94g.jpg (http://s570.photobucket.com/user/Logan_Morgan/media/Muzzio-Visionary%20Architect_zpsfy95d94g.jpg.html)

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/Logan_Morgan/Scion%20of%20the%20Ur-Dragon_zpsvvdh7qfu.jpg (http://s570.photobucket.com/user/Logan_Morgan/media/Scion%20of%20the%20Ur-Dragon_zpsvvdh7qfu.jpg.html)

Dhavaer

2015-07-28, 02:36 AM

Dropping the Epiphanies (I didn't have enough artifacts to use them without the rings or orbs) gets the tap down to a much slimmer 36 cards.

Creatures
4x Faerie Miscreant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398459)
4x Jeskai Sage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391864)
2x Runed Servitor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398643)
2x Jhessian Thief (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398536)
1x Ornithopter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383334)
2x Frost Lynx (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383248)

Other
2x Divination (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383227)
4x Sphinx's Tutelage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398520)
4x Dreadwaters (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398405)
1x Talent of the Telepath (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398483)
1x Alhammarret's Archive (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398564)
2x Sword of the Animist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398492)
3x Send to Sleep (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398545)
4x Crippling Chill (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=386510)

It also has the mild advantage that the prowess creatures can do a reasonable bit of sword enhanced face punching should the tutelages not show up on schedule. I don't think it would win that way, but you never know.

Ninjaman

2015-07-28, 04:07 AM

Androgeus

2015-07-28, 04:08 AM

Man, I used to know how the rules work, but I've clearly proven that I don't. Well don't combine Day's Undoing with those cards then.

To be fair, the rule was only added with Day's Undoing's release so if you don't keep up with all the rules updates you wouldn't know.

Dhavaer

2015-07-28, 04:37 AM

I would either cut all the mill or all the prowess, they don't fit together. I think going with prowess is the safer route, as it is more likely to actually do something, and it is still really fun to play.

Sure they fit together; the sages trigger draws when they die and the thieves do the same when they hit, both fuelling tutelage. That they also have prowess is a nice bonus.

Ninjaman

2015-07-28, 05:03 AM

Sure they fit together; the sages trigger draws when they die and the thieves do the same when they hit, both fuelling tutelage. That they also have prowess is a nice bonus.

Prowess is an irrelevant bonus that does way too little in the deck compared to what you are paying for it.

Dhavaer

2015-07-28, 05:15 AM

What would you suggest replacing them with, then?

Ninjaman

2015-07-28, 09:23 AM

What would you suggest replacing them with, then?

If you go with the mill plan I would also cut all your temporary tap since you will be a slow deck so tempo cards won't be very good.

Chasm Skulker could be an alternate wincondition and a good blocker.
Claustrophobia perma-tap
Griptide more monoblue removal
Icefall Regent Tap on a beater
Wall of Frost Champ blocker
Whelming Wave if the table gets too clogged.
Whisk Away More removal
I would also play some counterspells

If you can play non standard cards I would also play cards like
Augur of Bolas

Dhavaer

2015-07-28, 09:59 AM

Alright, let's try the control/defence version.

Creatures
4x Faerie Miscreant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398459)
3x Runed Servitor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398643)

Other:
2x Divination (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383227)
4x Sphinx's Tutelage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398520)
4x Dreadwaters (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398405)
1x Talent of the Telepath (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398483)
1x Alhammarret's Archive (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398564)
1x Orbs of Warding (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398551)
4x Prism Ring (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398646)
2x Contradict (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394523)
4x Calculated Dismissal (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398480) or 4x Clash of Wills (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398542) (maybe 2 of each?)
2x Whisk Away (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=391956)
4x Claustrophobia (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398607)

That leaves space for 24 land. I kind of want Hydrolash, because otherwise the Orbs are the only thing I have against a horde of goblin tokens and it takes too long to come online. I'm also thinking of 2 Artificer's Epiphanies in addition to the 2 Divinations, since I have more artifacts in this build. I'm also considering Mage Ring Network. So, 24 Islands or 2 Hydros, 2 Epiphanies, 1 Network and 19 Islands?

tgva8889

2015-07-28, 02:05 PM

To be fair, the rule was only added with Day's Undoing's release so if you don't keep up with all the rules updates you wouldn't know.

I guess I can cut myself a little bit of slack for not knowing how specifically the card Day's Undoing works, given that it just came out? I appreciate the pep talk.

CN the Logos, those look pretty nice.

Sith_Happens

2015-07-28, 08:20 PM

So, what's everyone think of Day's Undoing? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398652)

I can't decide whether it only ending the turn if it's your turn makes it a better or worse card. On the one hand, giving it flash makes it Timetwister. On the other hand, giving it flash doesn't also make it Time Stop.

tgva8889

2015-07-29, 02:48 AM

I can't decide whether it only ending the turn if it's your turn makes it a better or worse card. On the one hand, giving it flash makes it Timetwister. On the other hand, giving it flash doesn't also make it Time Stop.

Based on the article I read, they actually specifically changed the wording so that you couldn't turn Quicken + Day's Undoing into Timetwister + Time Walk.

Lea Plath

2015-07-29, 04:06 AM

Fable Wright

2015-07-29, 04:23 AM

So I'm rocking up to Tiny Leaders tonite with this 60. Alesha, Stax Khan (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/alesha-stax-khan/).

The meta seems to be mostly elves and Shu Yun stoneblade due to the density of legacy players. So my thought it to make everything cost 3 to stop Shu Yun and Elves from vomiting cards out, then just stax them down with efficient beaters, mana denial and tokens.

What do people think? Any comments? I kinda want to fit a Blade-Splicer in as another way to hit Shu-Yun and have another beater.

Not sold on the Brain Maggot, and 18 lands seems really sketchy despite the low curve and mana rocks. You're liable to have issues putting down your rocks with less than 20 land. Also, Mox Diamond is rather poor in this build. If you draw it after the first turn, you'll have no lands to pitch to it, and if you have it in your opener, it's likely that you don't have enough lands to pitch to it. Seems pretty lose-lose in a low-land shell with no land recursion.

Also, Enlightened/Demonic/Vampiric Tutor: Are they banned? If not, why are you not running them?

For lands, Shizo, Death's Storehouse seems better than another Swamp, being able to force your commander through, and Tomb of Urami is can be surprisingly good in stax builds as it provides a lategame must-answer threat when both players are in topdeck mode.

Lea Plath

2015-07-29, 05:04 AM

Not sold on the Brain Maggot, and 18 lands seems really sketchy despite the low curve and mana rocks. You're liable to have issues putting down your rocks with less than 20 land. Also, Mox Diamond is rather poor in this build. If you draw it after the first turn, you'll have no lands to pitch to it, and if you have it in your opener, it's likely that you don't have enough lands to pitch to it. Seems pretty lose-lose in a low-land shell with no land recursion.

Also, Enlightened/Demonic/Vampiric Tutor: Are they banned? If not, why are you not running them?

For lands, Shizo, Death's Storehouse seems better than another Swamp, being able to force your commander through, and Tomb of Urami is can be surprisingly good in stax builds as it provides a lategame must-answer threat when both players are in topdeck mode.

I've not found any trouble with them. The idea being you use the rocks over lands to fight through Winters Orb and have more cards down for Tangle Wire. Brain Maggot is just a way to disrupt hands, and Mox Diamond actually isn't so bad I've found. The early power it gives for turn 1-2 trinisphere is excellent.

As for tutors, all except Enlightened are banned and I was trying to avoid 1 costs so I could play Chalice as well.

tgva8889

2015-07-29, 12:42 PM

I'm not sure what I would play, but I feel like this deck doesn't have enough mana denial. Trinisphere and Winter Orb and such are fine cards, but unfortunately you really need a lot of mana denial effects at once to really get people and I'm not sure that you have enough.

Also, isn't Tiny Leaders 50 cards?

Mystic Muse

2015-07-29, 01:38 PM

CN the Logos

2015-07-30, 12:53 AM

Alright, let's try the control/defence version.

More thoughts:

Hydrolash is a trap. It doesn't stop a horde of goblin tokens, it only buys you one turn at best. And that's assuming your opponent is actually playing a horde of creatures, none of which have a power greater than two. If your opponent has a Goblin Piledriver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=398537), it's a bad joke. I don't mean it's a bad joke against a tournament ready goblin deck with a playset of the things. I mean that if your opponent has a single copy of that card your Hydrolashes do nothing. The same goes for Orbs of Warding, except Orbs is five mana, not an instant, only reduces damage by one point per creature, and is destroyed by anything that can get rid of artifacts. I guess if you're playing with sideboards, maybe you could put it in that as a way to deal with tokens and with spells that directly target you using the same sideboard slot? :smallconfused: Running one copy of it that you probably won't draw when you need it and has a decent chance of getting blown up when you actually get it just seems like a recipe for sadness though.

Prism Ring isn't good. At all. Gaining one life per spell you play isn't enough to slow down more aggressive decks, and it gets worse the more artifacts you play because most artifacts aren't colored spells.

If your opponent isn't totally tapped out, Clash of Wills is strictly worse than Cancel, and the only reason to ever play Cancel is if you can have an artist alter it to extend the middle finger on the M10 artwork. The scry 2 on Calculated Dismissal's spell mastery trigger might be worth it, although I'd rather play Dissolve or Dissipate for the same mana cost.

I ask again, what format is this for? Is this a Standard deck? Because if it isn't, you could play Aetherize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394352). One more mana than Hydrolash, and it doesn't have the cantrip effect, but it forces your opponent to replay attacking creature cards, and attacking tokens just cease to exist. Aetherspouts (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383178) is still Standard-legal for another few months, although it's probably too slow for what you want it to do. Then again, it could replace Contradict for the same mana cost.

To be fair, the rule was only added with Day's Undoing's release so if you don't keep up with all the rules updates you wouldn't know.

Time Stop was first printed in Champions of Kamigawa, and EDH players have been using Sundial of the Infinite in response to Phage's ETB trigger for a while now. Although no one outside of EDH will ever use either of those cards, so I don't blame anyone for not remembering they exist. :smalltongue:

CN the Logos, those look pretty nice.

Yeah, I think I got my trade value's worth, although I'm moderately disappointed the guy who made the proxies wasn't able to fit Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon's third head on the Scion proxy. It still turned out pretty well, I think.

Dhavaer

2015-07-30, 04:12 AM

I ask again, what format is this for? Is this a Standard deck? Because if it isn't, you could play Aetherize (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=394352). One more mana than Hydrolash, and it doesn't have the cantrip effect, but it forces your opponent to replay attacking creature cards, and attacking tokens just cease to exist. Aetherspouts (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=383178) is still Standard-legal for another few months, although it's probably too slow for what you want it to do. Then again, it could replace Contradict for the same mana cost.

It's for Standard. I don't have either of the Aether cards and I only have one Dissolve.

Lea Plath

2015-07-30, 04:17 AM

So.

The last time Tiny Leaders fired, we had 4 Shu Yun decks and 2 Elves decks. Then like 2-3 randomers. I build Alesha to beat elves and Shu Yun by making their spells cost 3, removing cheap elves and prowess.

Aaaaaand. We didn't have any of those. We had UR Painter/Tuterlage combo control. 2 Meriekt Bi control decks. 1 Merfolk. Me with Alesha and 1 Animar Combo.

I went 2-1 cause I got the bye. 2-1 versus Merfolk. Thassa's unblockableness is a beating. 2-1 versus Esper control. I won the first game easily by going into tangle wire and staxing game out. Game 2 was hard fought, but I overcommited in order to deal with his growing board of threats, but he eventually won, on 2 life, off a double sworded stoneforge. Game 3, I was on the play and didn't sequence the stax right.

So, TLDR. I built my deck for the wrong meta and got punished for it.

Soooooooo...

Going forward I'm gonna be siding out the package on the draw, keeping on the play. It should also hopefully blank any artifact removal they bring in for the cards.

I'm playing a more threat heavy version, dropping some of the Mesmeric Fiend type cards.

Compare my original build (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/alesha-stax-khan/) with the new one (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/alesha-stax-khan-of-the-mardu/). I kind of want Chaos Warp for tucking commanders/being value but unsure on cuts.

I could also play a more midrange-y version (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/alesha-stax-khan-better-stax-copy/), with recursion being a higher element.

Other decks I am considering is Sydri Midrange, with tinker, thopter sword and value backed up with some counters, Yasova Temur Delver, Nim Painter control myself, or Jenera Tempo.

Androgeus

2015-07-30, 06:15 AM

Time Stop was first printed in Champions of Kamigawa, and EDH players have been using Sundial of the Infinite in response to Phage's ETB trigger for a while now. Although no one outside of EDH will ever use either of those cards, so I don't blame anyone for not remembering they exist. :smalltongue:

I know all about Time Stop and Sundial. Day's Undoing causes other things to trigger during it's own resolution (due to the shuffle and draw), which the other two didn't so it was not accounted for in the previous rules for ending the turn.

Also a new card for Battle For Zendikar was spoiled in Zendikar vs Eldrazi
http://media.wizards.com/2015/images/daily/EN_jkt2vsve7u.png

Svata

2015-07-30, 06:45 AM

For 6!? That's crazy!

Dhavaer

2015-07-30, 07:09 AM

Well, I know what my Zendikar Roil/Incarnate deck wants.

Binks

2015-07-30, 10:30 AM

So Magic Duels if finally out on Steam (just barely squeaking in their July deadline). Seems to be having some server issues, which makes me wonder what they spent the last few weeks fixing, but whatever.

Couple of comments after having played the first story campaign.
Man, this game does a LOT of hand-holding. I turned off tips and hints and I still get unskippable 'here's how this one ability works' sections that I'm sure would be useful to a newbie, but come off as kind of condescending at this point. 'Lets see if you can manage to win this game. Your opponent has no flying or reach, and you have a flier with power equal to their life total. Thrilling challenge!'
I'm getting some kind of graphical glitch where the backgrounds aren't loading (pure black instead), so might be a part of that, but everything seems substantially smaller and harder to see in this version, which is a big step backwards IMHO. Duels 2015 already had everything small enough that it was often hard to select specific cards or understand what was going on, and the cards in this one feel around 2/3 the size of that. Might be resolved if I can ever get this graphical glitch fixed. As a side note, it's very annoying that they removed my resolution of choice (1360x768). You can get 16:9 resolution for 1 step above and below 1360 but for some reason you cannot select a 16:9 resolution for 1360. It's an eclectic set of resolutions at best.
I appreciate the fact that they have a deck building wizard and a pure deckbuilder, and that they let you choose which one to use. Was nice to be able to build my deck without any hand holding silliness. And the pure deckbuilder is actually an improvement for Duels 2015, as it adds a few extra search features and doesn't separate lands into their own tab for whatever reason.
When they say only Origins cards are unlockable, they failed to mention that some cards from other sets are available. You start off (after completing Gideon's campaign) with a Starter box of cards which seems to include 4 of each guildgate (bad, but easy fixing), 2 of each of the 10 rare 'enters tapped unless you control a specific basic' cycle, and a bunch of M15 cards. Seeing Nightfire Giant in my pool was kind of amusing, especially when I was only expecting Origins stuff.
The story mode escalates alright. At least for Gideon's journey I found the deck to be boring but practical (it's a white weenie deck) and full of junk cards, but your opponents decks are worse, so works out fine. We'll see how the other ones play out, but it's at least better than M15's 'Here's a bunch of terrible cards, go make a deck then face finely tuned and perfectly designed enemy decks that will trounce you until you get lucky'
Overall, seems like a great introductory product, and should be alright for veterans once you get past the annoying hand-holding stuff and the worse-than-Duels15 interface.

tgva8889

2015-07-30, 02:49 PM

Duels is pretty fun, but Chandra's deck is terrible against her first opponent. It took me several tries to win because it's hard to win games when you have a pile of vanilla creatures and your opponent has a million Thopters and a 2-for-1 Reclusive Artificer.

Time Stop was first printed in Champions of Kamigawa, and EDH players have been using Sundial of the Infinite in response to Phage's ETB trigger for a while now. Although no one outside of EDH will ever use either of those cards, so I don't blame anyone for not remembering they exist. :smalltongue:

Those are different because Day's Undoing causes the abilities to trigger as part of its effect, so I forgot that ending the turn would cause those abilities to go away. I am intimately aware of how Time Stop and Sundial of the Infinite works as I have played both cards in a variety of decks.

Dhavaer

2015-07-31, 11:39 AM

So, I'm planning my deck for my next Friday Night Magic (tonight's went terribly, red aggro doesn't do super well against Abzan apparently).

Option 1: Black/Green Elves (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/attacking-is-for-eyeblights/). Weirdly, my first draft of that came out to 60 cards. It's what you'd expect, elves to help draw more elves, elves to help cast elves, elves to deal damage to people without elves. Elves no longer looks like a word to me. The maybeboard is cards that I have, but didn't make the cut for one reason or another. I might drop two Massacres for, maybe, the third Empath and a Gilder. Also, I'm not sure about the wastes; worth the life loss?

Option 2: Impact Roil (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/impact-roil/). Basically, get Impact Tremors and Zendikar Roil out and keep dropping land. I don't have as much land searching as I'd like, but I'll work with what I have. I need more early creatures, though, my initial build was full of buff spells but I'd forgot to put more than the Incarnate, Hierarchs, Atarka and Nissa in. If I drop in the Wolves, Growths, Reclaims and Lightning, that will give me room for 22 land, will that be enough, do you think?

Blue Ghost

2015-07-31, 07:19 PM

The set of cards present in Duels is roughly the same size as Origins, and looks appropriate for a core set. My guess is that the Duels cards were an early draft of the Origins set skeleton, and some cards were switched around later in development.

Dhavaer

2015-07-31, 11:55 PM

Impact Roil has been updated; I found another 2 Pilgrimages and put in 4 Elvish Visionaries; I thought the card draw might be more helpful than the slightly larger wolves. I have four slots left open and I'm think of adding either the lightning strikes, growths or wolves. Any advice?

tgva8889

2015-08-01, 02:02 AM

The Impact Roil deck doesn't look like it does anything most of the time. I'd lean towards the Elves deck. As far as I can see, there's no reason for you not to be playing both the Llanowar Wastes you have as they provide good fixing. I'd probably see if you can find a good card to let you rebuy a large number of your dead creatures and replace one of the Eyeblight Massacres with it. Something in the vein of Gravepurge but better; I don't remember if there's anything particularly strong at returning a lot of creatures from your graveyard to your hand. Being able to rebuy your Shamans or Messengers will be the best way for you to rebuild your board after a wipe.

Dhavaer

2015-08-06, 05:00 AM

I don't think I have anything better than Gravepurge at recycling my graveyard, but I do have a Gravepurge, so it's in. I'll see tomorrow how it works out.

tgva8889

2015-08-06, 06:17 AM

I just realized, Gravepurge is actually perfect so long as you're getting a Sylvan Messenger back, because Messenger will draw you all the Elves you put on top. That's a much better combination than I would have thought.

For your sideboard, I strongly suggest you include every copy of Reclamation Sage you own, and then add any other cards that can deal with artifacts or enchantments, like Naturalize or Unravel the Aether. I'd play probably 4 total cards with that effect. You probably want more copies of Gravepurge, as they'll be pretty effective against a control deck at rebuilding your board, and you probably want some sort of discard spell. Duress is a pretty good one against both Abzan and Red, so I'd suggest that one. I'd also put the fourth Eyeblight Massacre in your sideboard, just in case. Then I'd finish with a removal spell that you can use against larger creatures. Ultimate Price and Hero's Downfall are ideal.

On a somewhat unrelated note, anyone have any suggestions for a mono-red Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh Commander deck? I'm working on putting one together, because I don't have a mono-red deck yet and she seems like a fun card to try out.

Sith_Happens

2015-08-06, 12:36 PM

On a somewhat unrelated note, anyone have any suggestions for a mono-red Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh Commander deck? I'm working on putting one together, because I don't have a mono-red deck yet and she seems like a fun card to try out.

My first suggestion is to put in every other version of Chandra as well just for funsies.:smallwink:

tgva8889

2015-08-06, 07:08 PM

My first suggestion is to put in every other version of Chandra as well just for funsies.:smallwink:

Chandra, Pyromaster is almost good enough that I'd just consider doing it. The others I don't think are good enough to be worth playing given that I'm planning to have my commander in play a lot. But I might end up playing some of them anyways, because having lots of planeswalkers in my deck designed to use a planeswalker might just be a good idea anyways. At least most of them can just be used for useful effects.

unseenmage

2015-08-07, 04:43 PM

Have a Modern Bant deck that wants 3 more Noble Hierarchs.
I looked but I'm out of Birds if Paradise too.
What's the third tier choice for Bant mana dorks?

tgva8889

2015-08-07, 04:51 PM

That depends. What cards are you trying to cast on 3 mana, and what does your mana base look like?

My immediate answer is Avacyn's Pilgrim, assuming that you want a source of white to go with your green source to help you cast Loxodon Smiter or Knight of the Reliquary. If you're trying to cast Geist of St. Traft, then you really don't have many better options than Birds or Hierarch. If you're trying to cast a 2 and have an attacker (or Path to Exile mana) then Avacyn's Pilgrim also probably does the job. But it does depend on what other cards you're playing.

unseenmage

2015-08-07, 06:21 PM

Sith_Happens

2015-08-08, 12:11 AM

http://blog.mtgprice.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Screen-Shot-2015-08-05-at-6.07.24-PM.png

https://slm-assets1.secondlife.com/assets/7495050/lightbox/darth_vader_noooo.jpg?1365367238

Duck999

2015-08-08, 04:01 AM

We can make it through this horrible tragedy.

Especially with full art lands to support us. Soon it will be time to squander my life savings on packs just for the basic lands.

tgva8889

2015-08-08, 04:55 AM

As cool as enemy fetches are, we have the Onslaught fetches in Standard. It would have been unrealistic to expect them to give us 5 more in Standard.

Androgeus

2015-08-08, 09:25 AM

We can make it through this horrible tragedy.

Especially with full art lands to support us. Soon it will be time to squander my life savings on packs just for the basic lands.

Fat Packs should come with a bundle of full arts so you don't need to buy just packs to get them.

Jaxzan Proditor

2015-08-08, 09:36 AM

Fat Packs should come with a bundle of full arts so you don't need to buy just packs to get them.

I'm probably going to buy a few fat packs just for the lands.

Mystic Muse

2015-08-08, 09:47 AM

I will likely do the same.