Gandalf V.S Jason

[ArlEammon]

Gandalf the Grey is looking around his surroundings. He appears in a modern Medieval Fair, with people commenting on how interesting his costume is, since he has Glamdring and a real wizard's staff. Gandalf senses great evil entering the fair. The fair ends at 9 O'Clock, but Gandalf is assumed for some reason to be a part of the work staff. Both employees and customers ignore him even as he stays behind searching for the evil that he can sense.

A stupid pair of horny teenagers are seen getting physical with each other just as Jason has a real Medieval sword in his hand, and with one swoop of the sword, he cleaves them both in two in cold blooded murder. Gandalf realizes that's his qeau. He races to Jason and challenges him to a battle just as Jason turns around silently and readies his sword in a fighting stance.

Who wins?

[BWR]

Combat-wise Jason isn't much to write home about, at least not compared to a balrog or a ringwraith. He's basically slightly stronger than a human, tougher, surprisingly stealthy but slow. So in any face-off I'd give it to Gandalf.
It's his relentless ability to come back that's a problem so G may be taken by surprise if he thinks he's already taken care of J, and I'm not sure how he'd handle J permanently. Defeat him, tie him up, whistle for the eagles and take a trip to Mt Doom?

[ArlEammon]

Combat-wise Jason isn't much to write home about, at least not compared to a balrog or a ringwraith. He's basically slightly stronger than a human, tougher, surprisingly stealthy but slow. So in any face-off I'd give it to Gandalf.
It's his relentless ability to come back that's a problem so G may be taken by surprise if he thinks he's already taken care of J, and I'm not sure how he'd handle J permanently. Defeat him, tie him up, whistle for the eagles and take a trip to Mt Doom?

I don't know but I do know that Gandalf is respected for his intelligence and wisdom in the universe of Lord of the Rings. He can also handle getting killed once, which would transform him into Gandalf the White.

[Legato Endless]

I don't know but I do know that Gandalf is respected for his intelligence and wisdom in the universe of Lord of the Rings. He can also handle getting killed once, which would transform him into Gandalf the White.

That's not an innate ability though. Are we just giving him one auto-revive?


Combat-wise Jason isn't much to write home about, at least not compared to a balrog or a ringwraith. He's basically slightly stronger than a human, tougher, surprisingly stealthy but slow. So in any face-off I'd give it to Gandalf.
It's his relentless ability to come back that's a problem so G may be taken by surprise if he thinks he's already taken care of J, and I'm not sure how he'd handle J permanently. Defeat him, tie him up, whistle for the eagles and take a trip to Mt Doom?

Is this who would win in a fight or would be able to finally kill the other? This is the same issue that plagues Wolverine threads. Just because Wolverine isn't killed doesn't mean he didn't lose the battle if his opponent successfully knocks him out.

If it's the latter, then yeah, that's definitely an issue. While I could see Tom Bombadil finishing off Jason, that sounds like cheating having Gandalf call on his assistance.

[Kid Jake]

I think in the end it all comes down to how horny Gandalf is.

[The Glyphstone]

Jason is only really scary in comparison to the teenagers/young adults who are his usual prey. He's super-strong and super-tough, but so are Orcs and Uruk-Hai, and Gandalf can fight his way through large numbers of them just fine. Jason's 'special' is his immortality, which won't help him actually win the confrontation.

So I think Gandalf takes this, unless he totally drops the ball and underestimates Jason as a combatant (unlikely since he just watched him cleave two people in half).

[Sapphire Guard]

Gandalf has much more experience in sword to sword combat, don't see him losing this without serious bad luck.

[ArlEammon]

Gandalf has much more experience in sword to sword combat, don't see him losing this without serious bad luck.

Jason might find a chain saw. Medieval fares are often in big sandy lots if your in the West, or in woodsy parts if you're in a woodsy area.

[Dhavaer]

Jason might find a chain saw. Medieval fares are often in big sandy lots if your in the West, or in woodsy parts if you're in a woodsy area.

I would not wish to be on the chainsaw side of a chainsaw vs magic sword fight. At least another sword won't send a chain flying at high speed towards your face when it's parried.

[ArlEammon]

I would not wish to be on the chainsaw side of a chainsaw vs magic sword fight. At least another sword won't send a chain flying at high speed towards your face when it's parried.

Jason can't die by being cut apart. Gandalf's a wizard remember? That's more what I"m worried about on Jason's side, not Ian McKellan cutting him to pieces with Glamdring.

[nyjastul69]

Gandalf is more a plot device than a character. Jason is more a character than a plot device. Plot device wins. If they are both plot devices, the answer is, who wrote it?

[ArlEammon]

Gandalf is more a plot device than a character. Jason is more a character than a plot device. Plot device wins. If they are both plot devices, the answer is, who wrote it?

GRR Martin?

[Jayngfet]

Gandalf brandishes his elvish blade honed by the ancient masters that has been used to slay scores of the most horrible of evil in his world, wielding it with a form that has been mastered over untold ages of combat.

Jason has a "real medieval sword", forged using inferior methods and low quality metal, worn down from centuries of probably being in some dudes shed or else in the ground.

The very instant one hits the other Jasons blade will snap in half and he'll be defenseless, as even a Balrogs larger and superior blade broke into tiny pieces on contact. Then he physically can not stand a chance given he now can't get within punching range without getting hit multiple times and from an opponent who has harmed far worse with far less. Gandalf is not a mortal sorcerer or even a "mere" elf using magic rings and weapons to exert great power. He is essentially a god made flesh, in flesh that simply appears old, and has all the power entailed therein.

Realistically they wouldn't even parry. Gandalf simply rips the sword out of Jasons hand, as he's proven capable of doing, and explodes him with magic fire, another thing he's capable of doing that people often forget, and the whole thing just ends there.

[ArlEammon]

Gandalf brandishes his elvish blade honed by the ancient masters that has been used to slay scores of the most horrible of evil in his world, wielding it with a form that has been mastered over untold ages of combat.

Jason has a "real medieval sword", forged using inferior methods and low quality metal, worn down from centuries of probably being in some dudes shed or else in the ground.

The very instant one hits the other Jasons blade will snap in half and he'll be defenseless, as even a Balrogs larger and superior blade broke into tiny pieces on contact. Then he physically can not stand a chance given he now can't get within punching range without getting hit multiple times and from an opponent who has harmed far worse with far less. Gandalf is not a mortal sorcerer or even a "mere" elf using magic rings and weapons to exert great power. He is essentially a god made flesh, in flesh that simply appears old, and has all the power entailed therein.

Realistically they wouldn't even parry. Gandalf simply rips the sword out of Jasons hand, as he's proven capable of doing, and explodes him with magic fire, another thing he's capable of doing that people often forget, and the whole thing just ends there.

He will always come back if there's anything left. . . but yes I agree with you. Gandalf just shrugs his shoulder after enough burning, shocking, freezing, whatever, and just somehow causes him to be torn apart until it's very impractical trying to bring Jason back together.

[BWR]

Gandalf is more a plot device than a character. Jason is more a character than a plot device. Plot device wins. If they are both plot devices, the answer is, who wrote it?

Jason is a character? That's an interesting opinion. His entire personality is "Kill people". Nothing else. His entire purpose in the movies is 'kill people'. That's less characterization and less advanced plot description than Gandalf with his 'be a source of information and motivation for people, and be generally awesome'. If Gandalf is a plot device for moving people in the right direction, Jason is a plot device to make people run around and try not to die.

[nyjastul69]

Jason is a character? That's an interesting opinion. His entire personality is "Kill people". Nothing else. His entire purpose in the movies is 'kill people'. That's less characterization and less advanced plot description than Gandalf with his 'be a source of information and motivation for people, and be generally awesome'. If Gandalf is a plot device for moving people in the right direction, Jason is a plot device to make people run around and try not to die.

You are correct. Both are simple plot devices. I was just trying to create dynamic that simply doesn't exist. I should stay out of vs. threads. Unless they involve pie and ice cream of course.

[ArlEammon]

You are correct. Both are simple plot devices. I was just trying to create dynamic that simply doesn't exist. I should stay out of vs. threads. Unless they involve pie and ice cream of course.

http://i.imgur.com/taxfTHG.jpg (http://imgur.com/taxfTHG)

[Legato Endless]

Jason is a character? That's an interesting opinion. His entire personality is "Kill people". Nothing else. His entire purpose in the movies is 'kill people'. That's less characterization and less advanced plot description than Gandalf with his 'be a source of information and motivation for people, and be generally awesome'. If Gandalf is a plot device for moving people in the right direction, Jason is a plot device to make people run around and try not to die.

Hey now. Jason is driven to make his mom happy after she taught him the valuable lesson of indiscriminately killing people who live in the area of where some unrelated people allowed you to die. He's tortured to try to please his parent, but that early tragedy warped his whole moral structure and forced him to assume a masked persona of vengeance. He's an evil Freudian Batman. There's like, layers there. Layers!

[ArlEammon]

Hey now. Jason is driven to make his mom happy after she taught him the valuable lesson of indiscriminately killing people who live in the area of where some unrelated people allowed you to die. He's tortured to try to please his parent, but that early tragedy warped his whole moral structure and forced him to assume a masked persona of vengeance. He's an evil Freudian Batman. There's like, layers there. Layers!

That's right. There's like, two whole layers. But yes he is a person. He just isn't explored that much in the Jason Mythos, he's only a bestial monster who kills people.

I would like to see a movie where they finally defeat Jason for good by excorcising his soul and sending him to Heaven, but his Mask is possessed, and thus the next Jason is chosen by some random person who know one suspected throughout the entire movie.

[The Glyphstone]

The only layers Jason has are the ones he flays off his victims. He is not exactly complex.

[nyjastul69]

I'm sure most know this, the mask thing in Friday the 13th movies came into play in the 3rd movie. Jason isn't the killer in the first. In the 2nd he is, but he wears a burlap sack with eye holes cut out. It's the third movie in which he dons the mask. The burlap sack is scarier IMO.

[ArlEammon]

The only layers Jason has are the ones he flays off his victims. He is not exactly complex.

No. He's evil, but I find it reprehensible he's in a no-win situation where it's impossible for him to think for himself enough to atone for all his murders.


I'm sure most know this, the mask thing in Friday the 13th movies came into play in the 3rd movie. Jason isn't the killer in the first. In the 2nd he is, but he wears a burlap sack with eye holes cut out. It's the third movie in which he dons the mask. The burlap sack is scarier IMO.

Yeah. I would prefer if the original Jason movie monster were excorcised since he's really just a kid/mentally challenged zombie guy.

[Mato]

Jason and thread over.

Jason's deal is that he is an unstoppable killing machine. In Jason X the government has literally imprisoned him and tried every known method of execution. Jason survives so they give up and medically imprison him using heavy sedation and physically restrain him with steel manacles and chains. Jason somehow kills someone and trades places with them even while under constant surveillance. And this isn't really an X fluke, in the 8th film Jason's plot-powered jumping to victims reaches a level that can only be explained as teleportation.

For durability & strength in the 6th film a shovel is broken over his face dealing little to no damage, he's been shown to punch through concrete and lift entire trees over the series as well. In Final Friday it's explained that every time he resurrects, his strength increases. And even if his body were fully destroyed, and I mean on above the level of dragged-into-hell or thrown into a black hole (seriously, third X novel it happens) because he has recovered from both, it's been revealed he can possess other bodies.

What can Gandolf do against an unstoppable killer? Well let's talk about him for a moment. Gandolf has never beaten an opponent stronger than him and constantly loses. Against an equally powerful opponent (yes gandolf and the balrog are same-category lesser maiar), he still dies. Four of the weak-to-fire nazgul were capable of overwhelming him too and they're technically not even truly immortal just expert swordsmen with poisonous blades. The only enemy Gandolf has been consistently shown to kill are orcs which are weaker, less durable, and even less intelligent than Jason, and almost every none-hobbit hero in LotR has a higher kill count than him.

So you can't trap Jason, you can't permanently kill him, and even bodiless he can continue to hunt his prey down. And his opponent is a sword bearing flaming pinecone throwing old man that has such an enormous losing streak against supernatural beings that he uses hobbits to get things done. Done and done.

[Jayngfet]

Jason and thread over.

Jason's deal is that he is an unstoppable killing machine. In Jason X the government has literally imprisoned him and tried every known method of execution. Jason survives so they give up and medically imprison him using heavy sedation and physically restrain him with steel manacles and chains. Jason somehow kills someone and trades places with them even while under constant surveillance. And this isn't really an X fluke, in the 8th film Jason's plot-powered jumping to victims reaches a level that can only be explained as teleportation.

For durability & strength in the 6th film a shovel is broken over his face dealing little to no damage, he's been shown to punch through concrete and lift entire trees over the series as well. In Final Friday it's explained that every time he resurrects, his strength increases. And even if his body were fully destroyed, and I mean on above the level of dragged-into-hell or thrown into a black hole (seriously, third X novel it happens) because he has recovered from both, it's been revealed he can possess other bodies.

What can Gandolf do against an unstoppable killer? Well let's talk about him for a moment. Gandolf has never beaten an opponent stronger than him and constantly loses. Against an equally powerful opponent (yes gandolf and the balrog are same-category lesser maiar), he still dies. Four of the weak-to-fire nazgul were capable of overwhelming him too and they're technically not even truly immortal just expert swordsmen with poisonous blades. The only enemy Gandolf has been consistently shown to kill are orcs, and almost every none-hobbit hero in LotR has a higher kill count than him.

So you can't trap Jason, you can't permanently kill him, and even bodiless he can continue to hunt his prey down. And his opponent is a sword bearing flaming pinecone throwing old man that has such an enormous losing streak against supernatural beings that he uses hobbits to get things done. Done and done.

Gandalf is telekinetic and can auto explode items by looking at them. Breaking a shovel has no consequence in terms of force or scale.

[Mato]

Gandalf is telekinetic and can auto explode items by looking at them. Breaking a shovel has no consequence in terms of force or scale.In the film he has powerful telekinesis, in the novel it's limited to moving objects. Also completely irrelevant because Jason can survive explosions, regenerated from nothing, and doesn't need his body to win. "Unstoppable" killer in this case has really no exceptions as long as people bone each other by his lake (or another supernatural being calls him).

LotR is not D&D or Harry Potter. Most of Gandolf's "magic" is inspirational or wisdom, and even his superiors such as the witch-king who could shatter Gandolf the White's staff with a glance is comparably weak enough to be killed by a novice swordswomen with a normal blade.

And isn't not the shaft of the shovel that broke, but the metal blade at the end. This means Jason's face/mask were at once point capable of breaking hardened steel. How many times will he have to die before even Glamdring shatters? The answer is a finite amount and that's all that really matters because Jason is an infinite constant, there is only one end to things.

[Jayngfet]

In the film he has powerful telekinesis, in the novel it's limited to moving objects. Also completely irrelevant because Jason can survive explosions, regenerate from nothing, and doesn't need his body to win. "Unstoppable" killer in this case has no exceptions.

LotR is not D&D or Harry Potter. Most of Gandolf's "magic" is inspirational or wisdom.

And isn't not the shaft of the shovel that broke, but the metal blade at the end. This means Jason's face/mask were at once point capable of breaking hardened steel. How many times will he have to die before even Glamdring shatters? The answer is a finite amount and Jason is an infinite value, there is only one end.

...and Gandalf parried and auto exploded a far larger metal blade.

Not to mention that they, if you want inspirational wisdom stuff on the fundamental nature of things, which is kind of Gandalf's specialty, that's kind of exactly what you need to stop Jason.

[The Glyphstone]

Glamdring won't shatter, not unless Jason has magic of his own. The thing about magic weapons is that they're more than just metal, particularly in a Tolkenian mythos - they're emblems of power. It takes equal or greater power, in the metaphysical sense, to break an enchanted weapon, not just beating it against a tough object like Jason's skull repeatedly. The Witch-King had the will and power to shatter Gandalf's staff, same as how Sauron was able to break Narsil - Jason's strengths are purely in the physical realm. He's at best a particularly nasty troll who keeps coming back from the dead, not a balrog or even a Nazgul. Gandalf couldn't wade through an army of Jasons, but he can fight one and win.

Considering Gandalf is also immortal, if he can beat Jason once, he can beat him an infinite number of times assuming he has nothing better to do, which is presumably true since the two combatant are inside a pocket versus universe.

[Coidzor]

Gandalf realizes that's his qeau.

Oh, come on now, give Gandalf some credit here, he'd definitely realize his cue was well before the stupid kids were murdered.

[Killer Angel]

Glamdring won't shatter, not unless Jason has magic of his own.

...and what if Gandalf meets Freddy K.? Does Gandalf sleep?

[The Glyphstone]

...and what if Gandalf meets Freddy K.? Does Gandalf sleep?

I have no idea. But that would be a much more interesting versus - Freddy is vastly powerful in dreams, but we've seen he can be beaten or at least fended off, and a being of Gandalf's tier is going to have massive willpower.

[Darth Credence]

...Jason's deal is that he is an unstoppable killing machine. In Jason X the government has literally imprisoned him and tried every known method of execution. Jason survives so they give up and medically imprison him using heavy sedation and physically restrain him with steel manacles and chains. Jason somehow kills someone and trades places with them even while under constant surveillance. And this isn't really an X fluke, in the 8th film Jason's plot-powered jumping to victims reaches a level that can only be explained as teleportation.

For durability & strength in the 6th film a shovel is broken over his face dealing little to no damage, he's been shown to punch through concrete and lift entire trees over the series as well. In Final Friday it's explained that every time he resurrects, his strength increases. And even if his body were fully destroyed, and I mean on above the level of dragged-into-hell or thrown into a black hole (seriously, third X novel it happens) because he has recovered from both, it's been revealed he can possess other bodies...

So what you are saying is that Jason is Doomsday (not the new version, but the original that killed Superman).

As to Glyphstone's comment that Glamdring won't shatter unless Jason has magic of his own - doesn't Jason pretty much have to be magic, or he never would have come back from the dead in the first place? If his power is to relentlessly pursue his victim though death itself bars his way, wouldn't that pretty much qualify as the will and power to have Glamdring shatter on his skull?

And finally, is Gandalf immortal in the sense that he cannot be killed? Immortal in the sense of not dying of old age, sure, but I certainly never got the impression nothing could kill him. Far too many people who would have known better believed that Gandalf had died in Mordor for me to jump to that conclusion if it isn't backed up by something else.

[Mato]

...and Gandalf parried and auto exploded a far larger metal blade.Not really, it was made out of fire and Glamdring does not have an special power to cleave through weapons or armor.

Gandalf's staff and sword can be considered implements, he is able to channel his power through them focusing it's power. This is also true for Saruman and the other three are known to have staffs, then finally the Balrog manifests his own weapons using fire. Remember, that while Balrog and Gandolf had near-equal levels of power Glamdring has it's own power that aided Gandalf. This allowed him to overpower the Balrog's flame of Udun and dispel the blade, "shattering" it.


Considering Gandalf is also immortal, if he can beat Jason once, he can beat him an infinite number of times assuming he has nothing better to do, which is presumably true since the two combatant are inside a pocket versus universe.That statement is incorrect and I already told you why once.

In Final Friday it's explained that every time he resurrects, his strength increases.

His power isn't purely physical either, besides being spiritually powerful enough to escape from hell and possess bodies he has the 80s power of bad writing allowing him to break physics and interestingly enough, Freddy vs Jason is a canonical crossover and in that film his machete is a hell/dream created sword forged in hell and a reflection of a mass murder's intent. It's like you could make a three film story about destroying something as powerful as that :p


...and what if Gandalf meets Freddy K.? Does Gandalf sleep?Yes, recall when Pippin stole the Palantir. He sleeps with his eyes cracked open (novel).

Freddy's power is based on fear and Gandalf is regularly fearful. He is one of those brave-by-forging-ahead-while-terrified type characters which is great for characterization, but Freddy has already killed a sorcerer-type dreamwarrior and he can root around to find a person's greatest fear and use it against them.


So what you are saying is that Jason is Doomsday (not the new version, but the original that killed Superman).Close to it yeah. Doomsday has full on natural adaption and can be destroyed or trapped through, Jason was unable to cure his hydrocephalus limiting his adaption to strength (arguably his durability as well) and has the in-film power to escape from anything allowing the writers to simply bring him back.

Gandalf is an ageless-type immortal. He can be killed and died once during LotR, he was sent back by basically god to finish his task.

[pendell]

Gandalf is an immortal being, and not even the most powerful of the immortals in his universe. In his situation, I would subdue Jason most thoroughly, then take him on a ship to Valinor and the Halls of Mandos, the prison from which none have ever escaped or shall, till the world's ending.

Or just push him over the "Wall of Night". Let Jason spend his immortal eternity with Morgoth and Saruman, wherever they went.

Also, "death" in Middle Earth doesn't mean what it does elsewhere. While the spirits of evil elves and pretty much all men wind up in Mandos till the end of days, I've read it's quite common for elves and others to be re-embodied and sent back. Most of the elves stay in Valinor. Gandalf, of course, was sent back almost immediately in the books.

What this means is that , if Gandalf is killed, there's nothing stopping the Vala from sending him back in an even more powerful form. If they don't it's either because A) Jason is a challenge that the normals of Middle Earth are capable of dealing with, so Gandalf isn't needed or B) Jason is out of Gandalf's league, so Tulkas is going to settle his hash personally.

Thing is, between Valar and Maiar and Balrogs and the varieties of elves, immortal beings who can't be permanently killed are the norm rather than the exception in middle earth. It's only those hairless apes who die , and because of this they think they're somehow special.

At any rate, immortal, powerful beings are common. Which is why the Valar have a prison for them.

...

What about Jason vs. the Ringwraiths? Everybody in this scenario comes back nearly as soon as they are killed. Do they just keep fighting each other forever?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Killer Angel]

Freddy's power is based on fear and Gandalf is regularly fearful. He is one of those brave-by-forging-ahead-while-terrified type characters which is great for characterization, but Freddy has already killed a sorcerer-type dreamwarrior and he can root around to find a person's greatest fear and use it against them.

and, as Jason, is basically unkillable.

[Grim Portent]

What about Jason vs. the Ringwraiths? Everybody in this scenario comes back nearly as soon as they are killed. Do they just keep fighting each other forever?

Presumably they stab Jason with a morgul blade and he slowly turns into a wraith like them.

What that actually means is anyone's guess.

[Traab]

Presumably they stab Jason with a morgul blade and he slowly turns into a wraith like them.

What that actually means is anyone's guess.

He becomes ten times creepier and his mask seems to leak shadows out of the eyeholes as he stalks you.

[ArlEammon]

Oh, come on now, give Gandalf some credit here, he'd definitely realize his cue was well before the stupid kids were murdered.

When Gandalf looks around at a clearly alien world, even in a Medieval fare, not knowing where the hell he is, he might have no reason to believe that Jason is even real until he actually commits murder.

Gandalf might not regularily use lightning bolts and fireballs, but he can and does sometimes use spells like that. If he realizes he needs more firepower, and Illuvetar sent him to deal with him, he's not going to lull around like he did in Middle Earth.


So what you are saying is that Jason is Doomsday (not the new version, but the original that killed Superman).

As to Glyphstone's comment that Glamdring won't shatter unless Jason has magic of his own - doesn't Jason pretty much have to be magic, or he never would have come back from the dead in the first place? If his power is to relentlessly pursue his victim though death itself bars his way, wouldn't that pretty much qualify as the will and power to have Glamdring shatter on his skull?

And finally, is Gandalf immortal in the sense that he cannot be killed? Immortal in the sense of not dying of old age, sure, but I certainly never got the impression nothing could kill him. Far too many people who would have known better believed that Gandalf had died in Mordor for me to jump to that conclusion if it isn't backed up by something else.

Glamdring is one of the most powerful surviving artifacts in the Third Age. It isn't likely Jason can destroy it.


Not really, it was made out of fire and Glamdring does not have an special power to cleave through weapons or armor.

Gandalf's staff and sword can be considered implements, he is able to channel his power through them focusing it's power. This is also true for Saruman and the other three are known to have staffs, then finally the Balrog manifests his own weapons using fire. Remember, that while Balrog and Gandolf had near-equal levels of power Glamdring has it's own power that aided Gandalf. This allowed him to overpower the Balrog's flame of Udun and dispel the blade, "shattering" it.

Close to it yeah. Doomsday has full on natural adaption and can be destroyed or trapped through, Jason was unable to cure his hydrocephalus limiting his adaption to strength (arguably his durability as well) and has the in-film power to escape from anything allowing the writers to simply bring him back.

Gandalf is an ageless-type immortal. He can be killed and died once during LotR, he was sent back by basically god to finish his task.

Gandalf can be killed, as Gandalf the Grey, when he was still a powerful being that maybe a dozen beings in the whole world could equal or exceed. As Gandalf the White, he is far more difficult to harm. Aragorn had a sword equal or even better than Glamdring, if I remember right, and Gandalf pointed out that no one had any weapons that could do harm to him. The Fellowship attacked him out of fear and not realizing who he was.

Furthermore, Gandalf has Narya. Narya is a magical Ring of fire. That's why Gandalf's form as the Grey couldn't be harmed by the Balrog's fire. Glamdring just let him kill it. ((Also, he did briefly use a lightning bolt attack channeled by his sword)).


Gandalf is an immortal being, and not even the most powerful of the immortals in his universe. In his situation, I would subdue Jason most thoroughly, then take him on a ship to Valinor and the Halls of Mandos, the prison from which none have ever escaped or shall, till the world's ending.

Or just push him over the "Wall of Night". Let Jason spend his immortal eternity with Morgoth and Saruman, wherever they went.

Also, "death" in Middle Earth doesn't mean what it does elsewhere. While the spirits of evil elves and pretty much all men wind up in Mandos till the end of days, I've read it's quite common for elves and others to be re-embodied and sent back. Most of the elves stay in Valinor. Gandalf, of course, was sent back almost immediately in the books.

What this means is that , if Gandalf is killed, there's nothing stopping the Vala from sending him back in an even more powerful form. If they don't it's either because A) Jason is a challenge that the normals of Middle Earth are capable of dealing with, so Gandalf isn't needed or B) Jason is out of Gandalf's league, so Tulkas is going to settle his hash personally.

Thing is, between Valar and Maiar and Balrogs and the varieties of elves, immortal beings who can't be permanently killed are the norm rather than the exception in middle earth. It's only those hairless apes who die , and because of this they think they're somehow special.

Brian P.

Agreed. But I"d like to think that instead of sending Jason to Mandus, Illuvetar of maybe the Valar cure him of his undead status and just send him to whatever Heaven is, since as I stated, Jason might be evil but that's only because he was murdered by negligence as a mentally challenged kid. That's why so many of his victims are horny teenagers. The counselors basically let him die, not knowing that he was drowning in the lake as they were fornicating. (Nice way to avoid breaking TOS).

[lord_khaine]

Agreed. But I"d like to think that instead of sending Jason to Mandus, Illuvetar of maybe the Valar cure him of his undead status and just send him to whatever Heaven is, since as I stated, Jason might be evil but that's only because he was murdered by negligence as a mentally challenged kid. That's why so many of his victims are horny teenagers. The counselors basically let him die, not knowing that he was drowning in the lake as they were fornicating. (Nice way to avoid breaking TOS).

Thats hardly an excuse for going on a random killing spree..

[ArlEammon]

Thats hardly an excuse for going on a random killing spree..
Well Jason is a fictional zombie character so this is kind of hard to take seriously, either what I'm saying or your saying, but this is a vs with fake people. Now:

With all due respect to any mentally challenged Humans, there's no excuse for some of the things they might do if they get mad. Some of them might cause irreparable harm if their strong, or find out how to do something, then might have no idea of the repercussions of what they're doing.

Jason is a supernatural version of that. He has the power to probably teleport, is stronger than a Super Soldier, so he could mangle almost anyone to death anyway, practically everyone in the real world, plus he has immortality and invulnerability, and the inability to learn past his mistakes, either in a 1+1 kind of way or even in ethical ways.

Jason Vorhees is insane, incredibly powerful and mentally very low scale with a one track mind. The only reason why he'd be irredeemable is because he's a horror movie monster who can somehow be pure evil and also very mentally impeded at the same time. Like someone said, in a round about way, this is exactly the kind of opponent that Gandalf would have the best time fighting, now that I think about it.

Gandalf is the wisest being among the vast majority of anyone in all of Arda. If there's anyone who could get through to him, it's Gandalf because even though Jason's evil is supernatural, Gandalf is supernatural too.

[The Glyphstone]

That's actually a very good point. We've been throwing Gandalf into a melee deathmatch because that is how versus fights work, but that's absolutely not his area of expertise for all that he is still skilled at it. Does it count as a win if Gandalf can break Jason's curse and free him from the vicious cycle of murder, something no one in any Jason movie has ever even attempted (because he's the bad guy, yo)?

[Mato]

Gandalf might not regularily use lightning bolts and fireballs, but he can and does sometimes use spells like that. If he realizes he needs more firepower, and Illuvetar sent him to deal with him, he's not going to lull around like he did in Middle Earth.Actually he never uses any of those things. He has charged his sword with lightning in past reference (in the silmarillion I believe) and lit pine cones on fire but he has never shot a bolt of lightning or a fireball.


Glamdring is one of the most powerful surviving artifacts in the Third Age. It isn't likely Jason can destroy it.Glamdring has note noted or displayed powers beyond remaining shiny and glowing white. There are around ten such elven blades, excluding Anduril, that display that level of power.

The mortal man Tuor used an axe named Dramborleg to kill five Balrogs, and while it also has no known magical traits it's legacy is a heck of a lot more impressive. The black arrow, apparently the only thing that can kill a LotR's dragon, was forged by a dwarf. Then of course the more-than-nine Morgul-blades wielded by the ringwraiths and the giant mace. And that's just weapons, mithral armor, the seven palantiri, arguably the remaining wizard staffs, and twenty rings of power.

One of the most? It ranks somewhere below the top fifty and when you quantify power you're talking about the properties of stainless steel and a detection spell. Which is honestly about right, LotR is a very low magic world.


if I remember right, and Gandalf pointed out that no one had any weapons that could do harm to him. The Fellowship attacked him out of fear and not realizing who he was. It's also stated by Aragon that no weapon can harm a Nazgul and we know how that turned out.

Gandalf used telekinesis to disarm Gimli, heats the metal of Aragon's unenchanted sword (anduril wasn't reforged yet), and subtle alters Legolas's arrow's flight path before setting it on fire. He also shines light to blind everyone. All of these are active defenses, if Gandalf had any real immunity they would have bounced off his beard and he wouldn't have needed to cast so many spells in succession and waste all that power.


Furthermore, Gandalf has Narya. Narya is a magical Ring of fire. That's why Gandalf's form as the Grey couldn't be harmed by the Balrog's fire. Glamdring just let him kill it. ((Also, he did briefly use a lightning bolt attack channeled by his sword)).Novel simply says he smote it, the film made that entire scene up.

Also Narya's power has nothing to do with summoning fire or the dominion over it. It's specifically stated to rekindle hearts to the valor in a world that grows chill and to defend it's bearer from weariness.

Your LotR-fu isn't all that great, but I'm glad you liked Peter Jackson's films.


That's actually a very good point. We've been throwing Gandalf into a melee deathmatch because that is how versus fights work, but that's absolutely not his area of expertise for all that he is still skilled at it. Does it count as a win if Gandalf can break Jason's curse and free him from the vicious cycle of murder, something no one in any Jason movie has ever even attempted (because he's the bad guy, yo)?
The films haven't, but the comics did. There are two evil dead crossovers, the first one the necronomicon is used to kill Jason who just gets better anyway. In the second Freddy uses it to resurrect Jason, curing him of his hydrocephalus which also boosts his intelligence. He is of course killed again because the heroes have to win but in typical horror fashion his dead mother gets one last teaser in by saying he'll return.

But in the LotR's universe, there is only one confirmed method that can reverse death and Gandalf isn't it.

[Sith_Happens]

"Unstoppable" killer in this case has really no exceptions as long as people bone each other by his lake (or another supernatural being calls him).

So, uh, what happens if someone fills in the lake and builds a shopping mall over it?


While the spirits of evil elves and pretty much all men wind up in Mandos till the end of days

Looks like someone needs to reread that part. Part of the Gift of Men is that no one but Elu Illuvitar himself knows what happens to men's souls when they die.

[Mato]

So, uh, what happens if someone fills in the lake and builds a shopping mall over it?Well, people bone in those places too.

Paul Bart's 3rd film becomes much more interesting?

[Aotrs Commander]

Actually he never uses any of those things. He has charged his sword with lightning in past reference (in the silmarillion I believe) and lit pine cones on fire but he has never shot a bolt of lightning or a fireball.

Hobbit page 58, when the Orcs attack, he makes "a flash like lightning" which "smells like gunpowder" and kills a load of Orcs. Pretty close to one or the other.

[Divayth Fyr]

The black arrow, apparently the only thing that can kill a LotR's dragon, was forged by a dwarf.
I believe this is film-only. In the book the arrow wasn't that special (Bard noted it never failed him and he was always able to recover it).


giant mace
Which giant mace? I'm not sure if any we know of existing in the Third Era was anything more than a regular (if larger) mace.


Gandalf used telekinesis to disarm Gimli, heats the metal of Aragon's unenchanted sword (anduril wasn't reforged yet)
It was in the books (where, unlike the movies, he left Rivendell with it).


Your LotR-fu isn't all that great, but I'm glad you liked Peter Jackson's films.
I'm sure there is a phrase that could fit here, something about a pot and kettle... ;P

[Bulldog Psion]

Hobbit page 58, when the Orcs attack, he makes "a flash like lightning" which "smells like gunpowder" and kills a load of Orcs. Pretty close to one or the other.

And his battle with the Ringwraiths left the entire top of Weathertop burned and blackened:



As Frodo lay, tired but unable to close his eyes, it seemed to him that far away there came a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off.

"What is the light?" he said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night.

"I do not know," Strider answered. "It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops."

Frodo lay down again, but for a long while he could still see the white flashes, and against them the tall dark figure of Strider, standing silent and watchful. At last he passed into uneasy sleep.



On the top they found, as Strider had said, a wide ring of ancient stone-work, now crumbling or covered with age-long grass. But in the centre a cairn of broken stones had been piled. They were blackened as if with fire. About them the turf was burned to the roots and all within the ring the grass was scorched and shrivelled, as if flames had swept the hill-top; but there was no sign of any living thing.



‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.

And then there's the battle with the Balrog:


There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.

Tolkien left out direct descriptions of these fights because he wanted Gandalf to be a mysterious counselor with "hidden power." I would say, though, that the novels directly state that he is capable of throwing around a lot of elemental power in the form of lightning and "blasting fire."

So, either he'd figure out some way to "cure" Jason or he'd just blast him into ash when he realized that hewing was vain.

[Mato]

Hobbit page 58, when the Orcs attack, he makes "a flash like lightning" which "smells like gunpowder" and kills a load of Orcs. Pretty close to one or the other.Sound likes he used those fireworks he makes doesn't it?


I believe this is film-only. In the book the arrow wasn't that special (Bard noted it never failed him and he was always able to recover it).Maybe that was it, it's been a while since I read the Hobbit. The mace I spoke of was Melkor's (sauron's master), whom is depicted as being larger than normal and the mace it noted for leaving holes in the ground after impact. Either the result of the mace or more than likely Melkor's power. Suggesting that it's real power (like every other enchanted weapon) it's simply more durable than iron.

If Aragon did have his fancy sword, hey that's good news. It means the blades are not immune to heat :smalltongue:


Tolkien left out direct descriptions of these fights because he wanted Gandalf to be a mysterious counselor with "hidden power." I would say, though, that the novels directly state that he is capable of throwing around a lot of elemental power in the form of lightning and "blasting fire."Only direct statement I know of is the pinecones which actually lit stuff on fire.

Even your text doesn't say such. The Balrog was made out of fire & shadow, melting the ice caps. And I also stand corrected, Gandalf didn't smite the Balrog, he threw him off a cliff which is even less impressive as far as magical powers go. And apparently his "summoned" fire can blacken stone, but only dry grass (scorched grass is light brown and easily lit on fire). It's indicative of low heat temperature but a lot of unburnt impurities. In other words, crude gunpowder.

So really, he's even less impressive than even I considered he was ten minutes ago.

[zimmerwald1915]

And his battle with the Ringwraiths left the entire top of Weathertop burned and blackened:

And then there's the battle with the Balrog:
There's also the battle with the wargs between Caradhras and Moria:


In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.

'Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!' he cried.

There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.

Speaking of Caradhras:

But though they had brought wood and kindlings by the advice of Boromir, it passed the skill of Elf or even Dwarf to strike a flame that would hold amid the swirling wind or catch in the wet fuel. At last reluctantly Gandalf himself took a hand. Picking up a ****** he held it aloft for a moment, and then with a word of command, naur an edraith ammen! he thrust the end of his staff into the midst of it. At once a great spout of green and blue flame sprang out, and the wood flared and sputtered.

'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin.'


Sound likes he used those fireworks he makes doesn't it?
Not particularly. Those fireworks are called Gandalf's "jokes and toys" (The Fellowship of the Ring, 226), and Gandalf manifestly took the goblins in Goblin-Town seriously.


If Aragon did have his fancy sword, hey that's good news. It means the blades are not immune to heat :smalltongue:
Anduril and Glamdring are not comparable. The one was made in Nogrod (and later reforged by much lesser smiths in Rivendell), the other in Gondolin, and their properties differ accordingly.


That's actually a very good point. We've been throwing Gandalf into a melee deathmatch because that is how versus fights work, but that's absolutely not his area of expertise for all that he is still skilled at it. Does it count as a win if Gandalf can break Jason's curse and free him from the vicious cycle of murder, something no one in any Jason movie has ever even attempted (because he's the bad guy, yo)?
Sure, why not? It is a much more interesting question.

Gandalf has a mixed record with curses. He was able to dispel the malaise over Theoden, but not the one over Denethor. He may have had some part in curing Frodo's Morgul-wound, but gives the greater part of the credit to Elrond. The beings closest to Jason in Middle-Earth are probably the Nazgul, and while Gandalf has confronted them (again, with mixed success), to my knowledge he never tried to wean one off its ring. He did mention that trying to force Bilbo to part with the One would break him (Bilbo), but on the other hand, Gandalf was able to persuade Bilbo to give it up.

[Traab]

Even your text doesn't say such. The Balrog was made out of fire & shadow, melting the ice caps. And I also stand corrected, Gandalf didn't smite the Balrog, he threw him off a cliff which is even less impressive as far as magical powers go. And apparently his "summoned" fire can blacken stone, but only dry grass (scorched grass is light brown and easily lit on fire). It's indicative of low heat temperature but a lot of unburnt impurities. In other words, crude gunpowder.

So really, he's even less impressive than even I considered he was ten minutes ago.

Point of contention, "I threw down my enemy" doesnt necessarily mean he hurled him off a cliff, just like someones downfall might not involve an actual descent. It is also another way of saying he defeated his enemy, but even if it DOES, HE HURLED A FRICKING BALROG OFF A CLIFF! How can you not give the dude some serious props for that? In every major battle description that took place "off screen" as it were, we get the same basic descriptions, thunder and lightning, flashes of flame and scorched earth. When Gandalf unleashes his power, everything he faces seems to die in a pyrotechnic manner visible for miles and miles. You dont get that from burning pine cones unless you are lighting them up in a grain silo.

[ArlEammon]

Sound likes he used those fireworks he makes doesn't it?

Maybe that was it, it's been a while since I read the Hobbit. The mace I spoke of was Melkor's (sauron's master), whom is depicted as being larger than normal and the mace it noted for leaving holes in the ground after impact. Either the result of the mace or more than likely Melkor's power. Suggesting that it's real power (like every other enchanted weapon) it's simply more durable than iron.

If Aragon did have his fancy sword, hey that's good news. It means the blades are not immune to heat :smalltongue:

Only direct statement I know of is the pinecones which actually lit stuff on fire.

Even your text doesn't say such. The Balrog was made out of fire & shadow, melting the ice caps. And I also stand corrected, Gandalf didn't smite the Balrog, he threw him off a cliff which is even less impressive as far as magical powers go. And apparently his "summoned" fire can blacken stone, but only dry grass (scorched grass is light brown and easily lit on fire). It's indicative of low heat temperature but a lot of unburnt impurities. In other words, crude gunpowder.

So really, he's even less impressive than even I considered he was ten minutes ago.


Point of contention, "I threw down my enemy" doesnt necessarily mean he hurled him off a cliff, just like someones downfall might not involve an actual descent. It is also another way of saying he defeated his enemy, but even if it DOES, HE HURLED A FRICKING BALROG OFF A CLIFF! How can you not give the dude some serious props for that? In every major battle description that took place "off screen" as it were, we get the same basic descriptions, thunder and lightning, flashes of flame and scorched earth. When Gandalf unleashes his power, everything he faces seems to die in a pyrotechnic manner visible for miles and miles. You dont get that from burning pine cones unless you are lighting them up in a grain silo.

And he grows more powerful in his White incarnation. Not to mention, which you just did, that Gandalf threw a giant man made of fire, with horns and stuff, off of a mountain. Jason probably weighs less. If Gandalf did this without magic, then Gandalf should be in Street Fighter, or Mortal Kombat if he gets to use Glamdring. lol.

[Bulldog Psion]

We can add to all this that he broke the bridge with a stroke of his staff, which was either a spell (most likely) or he's really, really strong; he and the Balrog fell together into the abyss and into deep water; there, he wrestled with the Balrog, hewed it while it was grappling with him, and actually caused it to flee.

He followed the fleeing Balrog up the Endless Stair to the mountaintop, where they emerged into sunlight where the Balrog burst into new flame.

Then the storm description followed; lighting, thunder, blasts of fire. Since it was clear on the mountaintop, that stuff was coming from the combatants. And either way you look at it, that puts Gandalf pretty high up on the list of magical bad***es. Either that stuff was at least partly his magic (most likely, due to the Weathertop and other descriptions), or it was the Balrog's magic, and Gandalf managed to win in melee with a Balrog, while being hit by lightning and fire.

The effects of that "elemental magic" were clearly quite ruinous on the surroundings, too:


The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world.

The tower on the mountaintop was blasted into dust by the combat, and the stair which had survived centuries was "choked with burned and broken stone."

While it's true Gandalf was mortally wounded by the combat (and then resurrected, to lie naked on a mountaintop above the clouds for DAYS and survive to be picked up by Gwaihir), still, blasting a tower into "dust" and choking the stair with rubble ... well, if that was done with burning pine cones, then I'll speak softly around spruce trees from now on. :smallbiggrin:

[Mato]

We can add to all this that he broke the bridge with a stroke of his staff, which was either a spell (most likely) or he's really, really strong;It was a spell and in the novel it broke his staff to do it which is a display of his Gray-level limitations. Similar to said "ruined tower" likely being the Balrog trying to fit through doorways and the fact it's made out of fire, burning and scorching everything it touches, after all Gandalf just broke his staff attempting a lesser level destruction and doesn't even have it at that point.

Also throwing your opponent down to the ground doesn't mean you are strong enough to pick him up. Wise old combat experienced Gandalf probably knows a few wrestling tricks.

The main reason Gandalf beat the Balrog is explained as they are both equally ranked divine beings. Not that they are necessarily equal in strength, size, or magical power. More than likely the Balrog favored physical traits over Gandalf's intelligence, Gandalf's known spells vs the Balrog's none. Gramdril and an elven ring of power vs nothing. And so on. Gandalf won by a fluke in the terrain but died afterwards making it a tie. All things considered, it's no wonder why Gandalf feared to face it, he knew it was stronger than him. Just like as a white he feared the witchking.

[Bulldog Psion]

It was a spell and in the novel it broke his staff to do it which is a display of his Gray-level limitations. Similar to said "ruined tower" likely being the Balrog trying to fit through doorways and the fact it's made out of fire, burning and scorching everything it touches, after all Gandalf just broke his staff attempting a lesser level destruction and doesn't even have it at that point.

Also throwing your opponent down to the ground doesn't mean you are strong enough to pick him up. Wise old combat experienced Gandalf probably knows a few wrestling tricks.

Well, there's the great thing about books. We can each interpret that scene as we want, and both of our interpretations are valid. :smallsmile:

[Traab]

It was a spell and in the novel it broke his staff to do it which is a display of his Gray-level limitations. Similar to said "ruined tower" likely being the Balrog trying to fit through doorways and the fact it's made out of fire, burning and scorching everything it touches, after all Gandalf just broke his staff attempting a lesser level destruction and doesn't even have it at that point.

Also throwing your opponent down to the ground doesn't mean you are strong enough to pick him up. Wise old combat experienced Gandalf probably knows a few wrestling tricks.

Hulk Hogan doesnt know a good enough wrestling trick to toss a 50 foot tall behemoth made of fire and shadow off a mountain. So unless you are going to claim the balrog tripped over his own feet and fell off the mountain, no matter how hard you try to downplay it, gandalf either blew up a balrog with elemental magic, or managed to manhandle a gigantic demon in a physical fight.

[Mato]

Well, there's the great thing about books. We can each interpret that scene as we want, and both of our interpretations are valid. :smallsmile:Well I wouldn't go that far.

Gandalf never displays super strength and his upper limitation was about a foot of rock, and hes depowered after doing so. So being strong enough to pick a Balrog up and throw him isn't exactly "valid".

Also wrestling is fake and Hulk Hogan was trying to make a point of displaying that he was strong enough to pick up Andre. Just google Judo some time, because I'm sure this topic needs some more eastern ninja references :p

[Traab]

Well I wouldn't go that far.

Gandalf never displays super strength and his upper limitation was about a foot of rock, and hes depowered after doing so. So being strong enough to pick a Balrog up and throw him isn't exactly "valid".

Also wrestling is fake and Hulk Hogan was trying to make a point of displaying that he was strong enough to pick up Andre. Just google Judo some time, because I'm sure this topic needs some more eastern ninja references :p

Wrestling is fake, the muscles are real, and so are the moves. Seriously, an inch or two difference in how they are applied and you would actually cripple your opponent. But thats not the point. The point is, gandalf defeated a 50 foot tall construct of malevolent fire and shadow. He didnt defeat it by accident, he didnt win through luck, the balrog wasnt bonked on the head by a chunk of rock shaken loose by its bellowing knocking it out, GANDALF BEAT THE BALROG. And he did it while "depowered" as you put it.

[Bulldog Psion]

Wrestling is fake, the muscles are real, and so are the moves. Seriously, an inch or two difference in how they are applied and you would actually cripple your opponent. But thats not the point. The point is, gandalf defeated a 50 foot tall construct of malevolent fire and shadow. He didnt defeat it by accident, he didnt win through luck, the balrog wasnt bonked on the head by a chunk of rock shaken loose by its bellowing knocking it out, GANDALF BEAT THE BALROG. And he did it while "depowered" as you put it.

Yes, true. After causing said Balrog to flee by "hewing" it. After falling into a deep, deep abyss ...

Yeah, Jason would be up against more than a skinny old dude with some matches and pine cones. :smallwink:

[Mato]

The point is, gandalf defeated a 50 foot tall construct of malevolent fire and shadow.So you're entire quantification that Gandalf is uber powerful is based on him beating a Balrog?

Tuor, a normal man using a human-forged axe, killed three-to-five them depending on which Tolkien source you like. Ecthelion, an elf possible using Glamdring's mate Orcrist, also killed another three of them.

Gandalf died trying to beat one, after it was tossed into an underground lake so cold it nearly stopped Gandalf's heart and then he fought on a cold mountain top using an equal blade that an Elf who killed three did scoring the lucky hit of "it probably tripped".

It really puts things into scale and why Gandalf keeps gathering parties up and then taking off doesn't it?

[Bulldog Psion]

Those First Age heroes, including the human ones, are a bit more like Hercules and Gilgamesh than D'Artagnan and Richard III, you know.

Here's Hurin, another "normal man" by your classification:


Last of all Hurin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew he cried: 'Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him away to Angband with mockery.

The guy killed 70 trolls, and then was taken prisoner only when he was literally buried under chopped-up orcs. He's about the same as Tuor.

So, if we count an even exchange rate -- let's say the Balrog Gandalf fought was no tougher than the ones Tuor slew, which may not be the case, since there are presumably different power levels among Balrogs (actually, we know there are, because of the Silmarillion's Gothmog), then fighting that Balrog on the mountain was only the equivalent of fighting and killing 14 trolls simultaneously, and being mortally wounded in the process.

I doubt there is one swordsman in the history of our Earth humans who could kill 14 of Tolkien's trolls when set upon by them simultaneously. That's what fighting the Balrog is like -- at a bare minimum.

Gandalf is not a feeble old guy who throws burning pine cones.

However, some of your statements like "the tower on the mountaintop must have been turned into dust by the Balrog elbowing the doorframe as he went out" tells me everything I need to know about where you're coming from.

I find this conversation to be increasingly tiresome and pointless, so I am planning to absent myself from it. Have fun, people!

[Divayth Fyr]

Gandalf died trying to beat one, after it was tossed into an underground lake so cold it nearly stopped Gandalf's heart and then he fought on a cold mountain top using an equal blade that an Elf who killed three did
Gandalf died defeating one, after being burned for a while when falling, then chilled nearly to death and climbing a few thousand steps.


scoring the lucky hit of "it probably tripped".
This is your interpretation.

And a question: would defeating a dragon in LotR be impressive or not? I'm guessing not, since a regular human, with a regular bow and an arrow that wasn't particularly special shot one down with a single hit...


It really puts things into scale and why Gandalf keeps gathering parties up and then taking off doesn't it?
I may be weird, but I'd say it was his modus operandi due to the nature of his mission - he wasn't supposed to walz into Mordor and topple Sauron, but rather guide the people of Middle-Earth so they can achieve that goal. Which doesn't change the fact that, when neccessary, he was able to put up a decent fight.

[Traab]

So you're entire quantification that Gandalf is uber powerful is based on him beating a Balrog?

Tuor, a normal man using a human-forged axe, killed three-to-five them depending on which Tolkien source you like. Ecthelion, an elf possible using Glamdring's mate Orcrist, also killed another three of them.

Gandalf died trying to beat one, after it was tossed into an underground lake so cold it nearly stopped Gandalf's heart and then he fought on a cold mountain top using an equal blade that an Elf who killed three did scoring the lucky hit of "it probably tripped".

It really puts things into scale and why Gandalf keeps gathering parties up and then taking off doesn't it?

So? Im betting tuor wouldnt be bothered by jason either. Gandalf died ACTUALLY beating one. And he did it with a shattered staff, after falling down a virtually bottomless pit into a lake so cold it nearly stopped his heart then chasing the thing up the equivalent of mt everest's worth of stairs and getting into the last round of combat on top of the damn world, WHERE HE WON.

As for gathering parties, thats because it isnt his job to solve all the problems of the world. He was sent as a guide, as a beacon, not as a weapon of mass destruction. Im not sure why you are so determined to pretend gandalf was some chump who couldnt fight his way out of a paper bag, despite the multiple accounts proving otherwise, but its honestly sorta silly to try.

[ArlEammon]

Let's see, In the movies we only see Gandalf defeating orcs effortlessly with one sword strokes, and beating them up, barely using his sword and staff.

That's no the Gandalf of the books. In the books, he's even better, I say even, because his showings in the movies only get impressive, other than the Balrog fight, during a few times of the three Lord of the Rings movies, and mostly after that during the Hobbit films.

He causes a magical explosion when rescuing his comrades, and his battle against Azog and the Necromancer of Dol Gauldur is more magical during just about any of times he was in Lord of the Rings ((again, referencing only the moves so far)). Sure, the magical pine cones wasn't incredibly impressive, but Gandalf already used a MORE impressive spell just minutes earlier during the battle against the Troll King.

Now that's only in the movies, where Gandalf was less impressive. His fighting prowess with sword and staff was inferior compared to his own abilities in the book. Actually, his final battle in Return of the King ((The cartoon)) is closer to the movie incarnation. Sure, he's not exactly like Aragorn and the main warriors, but the goblins and orcs are running from him like he's a lawn mower.

[pendell]

Looks like someone needs to reread that part. Part of the Gift of Men is that no one but Elu Illuvitar himself knows what happens to men's souls when they die.

In the tale of Beren and Luthien, Luthien talks Mandos into letting Beren out, and Mandos heart was moved to pity as it never has been before or since. He didn't have the power to alter the doom of men, so he went to Manwe, who went to Illuvatar. After going all the way up the chain Beren and Luthien were both released and sent back to Middle Earth to live "happy ever after" for a few decades or centuries.

Tolkien's writing was inconsistent on this score, apparently. After all, he was writing mythology and his continuity slipped from time to time. But in at least one version of his tale the souls of men stay at least awhile in the Halls before moving on, while the souls of Elves are bound to Middle Earth for as long as it shall last .. so elves come back after a short stay in the Halls. Unless your name is Feanor or one of his seven sons, who were promised as part of their oath that they would NEVER get out of jail.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gaming-Poet]

It's a little confusing.

Some people appear to be referencing the Gandalf who appears in the writings of J. R. R. Tolkien.

Other people appear to be referencing the Gandalf who appears in the films of Peter Jackson and, possibly, still others referencing the Gandalf who appears in the Ralph Bakshi animated film or in the Rankin & Bass animated television specials. I don't think I've seen the Gandalf who appears in either of the award-nominated theatre musicals of 2006+.

(I don't think anyone has been referencing either the D&D iteration or any of the fanfic versions.)

Has a consensus been established about WHICH Gandalf is fighting Jason?

[Bulldog Psion]

Has a consensus been established about WHICH Gandalf is fighting Jason?

Well, my assumption is that the book Gandalf would be the default version, given that this is closest to a canonical version of said wizard. I also figure he's also the lowest-powered version.

My contention is that the book clearly supports the idea that Gandalf is pretty dang powerful anyway; at least enough to put some fairly heavy fire, lightning, and possibly "holy energy" effects (in his Gandalf the White upgrade) on Jason. And that he's way more durable than an ordinary person, too.

[pendell]

In the Silmarillion, Sauron captured the island of Tol Sirion and dwelled in the tower there for a time. Luthien and the hound Huan arrived at the island. Huan first killed every last one of Sauron's troops, all by himself, and took Sauron himself by the throat. After Sauron surrendered, he was released and Luthien, now that she had been given power over the tower, razed it to the ground just through sheer awesomeness.

Luthien, mind you, is the half-Maiar daughter of Melian.

Gandalf is FULL Maiar. And by no means the weakest of them.

Who was it who said in the story that as a rule we see only his jokes and toys? If Gandalf ever decided to get really serious about combat, if he were to discard his old-man disguise and whip out his full power as a Maiar, he could probably make a passable imitation of an atomic blast.

He doesn't do that because direct combat is not his role; the domain of Middle Earth is the domain of elves and men, so his role is as a messenger, to provide counsel and encouragement, to permit them to seize the dominion that is theirs by right. Possibly the intrusion into Middle Earth of an outside influence like Jason would be enough for him to reconsider that part of his mission.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

In the Silmarillion, Sauron captured the island of Tol Sirion and dwelled in the tower there for a time. Luthien and the hound Huan arrived at the island. Huan first killed every last one of Sauron's troops, all by himself, and took Sauron himself by the throat. After Sauron surrendered, he was released and Luthien, now that she had been given power over the tower, razed it to the ground just through sheer awesomeness.

Luthien, mind you, is the half-Maiar daughter of Melian.

Gandalf is FULL Maiar. And by no means the weakest of them.

Who was it who said in the story that as a rule we see only his jokes and toys? If Gandalf ever decided to get really serious about combat, if he were to discard his old-man disguise and whip out his full power as a Maiar, he could probably make a passable imitation of an atomic blast.

He doesn't do that because direct combat is not his role; the domain of Middle Earth is the domain of elves and men, so his role is as a messenger, to provide counsel and encouragement, to permit them to seize the dominion that is theirs by right. Possibly the intrusion into Middle Earth of an outside influence like Jason would be enough for him to reconsider that part of his mission.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

My vote would be no. Jason just isnt that big of a threat that men elves and dwarves couldnt handle him. At most he might be there to use some sort of maiar magic to seal his soul away from middle earth after he was killed. If not? They would lock him in a box, hurl him out into the ocean, and wait for the next age of man to repeat the effort when he eventually busted out and made his zombie way back.

[The Glyphstone]

Doesn't the stated scenario have Gandalf as the 'intruder' to the real world anyways, rather than Jason being brought to Middle-Earth? If Gandalf is at a Ren Faire in the first place, he must be there for a reason - is Jason the reason he's there (whether he knows it or not), and thus he can go full Super SayanMaiar, or is Jason just an obstacle on the way to whatever his true mission is?

[ArlEammon]

My vote would be no. Jason just isnt that big of a threat that men elves and dwarves couldnt handle him. At most he might be there to use some sort of maiar magic to seal his soul away from middle earth after he was killed. If not? They would lock him in a box, hurl him out into the ocean, and wait for the next age of man to repeat the effort when he eventually busted out and made his zombie way back.


Doesn't the stated scenario have Gandalf as the 'intruder' to the real world anyways, rather than Jason being brought to Middle-Earth? If Gandalf is at a Ren Faire in the first place, he must be there for a reason - is Jason the reason he's there (whether he knows it or not), and thus he can go full Super SayanMaiar, or is Jason just an obstacle on the way to whatever his true mission is?

It's like Gandalf is the Spanish, Andrastian, Middle Earth Inquisition and Jason Vorhees is the heathen.

[The Glyphstone]

It's like Gandalf is the Spanish, Andrastian, Middle Earth Inquisition and Jason Vorhees is the heathen.

His three chief weapons are fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to Eru Ilúvatar?

[ArlEammon]

His three chief weapons are fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to Eru Ilúvatar?

Haha no. He's a holy warrior, like a Paladin/Wizard mix.

[The Glyphstone]

Haha no. He's a holy warrior, like a Paladin/Wizard mix.

I'll just leave and come in again, shall I?

[ArlEammon]

I'll just leave and come in again, shall I?

Okay, Gandalf only has to kill Jason/Excorcize, or in some way be triumphant. "Win". . . He has to use mostly novel/Silmarillion/Lord of the Rings/Hobbit defeat him but if things match up with the Book even Movie stunts and powers can be used to win.

[zimmerwald1915]

Who was it who said in the story that as a rule we see only his jokes and toys?
That was Aragorn, in The Fellowship of the Ring, page 226.

[Traab]

I'll just leave and come in again, shall I?

Amongst his weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to Eru Ilúvatar! And nice white robes!! AGGH! DANGIT!

[Bulldog Psion]

I'll just leave and come in again, shall I?

Making me giggle in so undignified a fashion this early in the day seems somehow unfair. :smallwink: