Shadow Conjuration

[Barbarian Horde]

Okay I need to know that when you make an illusion 120% more effective with the killer gnome build. Is there anything that is capable of proving that the spell is an illusion. I know it becomes quasi real so I'm concerned how true seeing and any other ability would stop this spell(s) in their track and ignore the conjuration spell that they are to imitate. Anything at all that would just stop these illusions from becoming 20% more real then reality.

But the spell is a 120% real so how could you say that its an illusion at that point? I need a detailed answer so I can justify my claims if possible.

[Story]

I don't think you're going to get a detailed answer by RAW since the designers clearly never considered the possibility.

If you want to avoid weirdness, maybe you should stop at 100% real? That simplifies things.

[Venger]

what are your claims, exactly?

a killer gnome's stuff are more effective numerically than reality if the save's made, that's the entire point. the spells are still classified as illusion for game purposes though, so spell focus applies, special resistances vs that school are useful, etc.

[Darkweave31]

I generally say seeing through it reveals it as a construct of shadow strands, but it still works the same.

Also the rules say that even if you realize its an illusion there is a percentage chance of still being affected. In this case a 120% chance. Read the shadow conjuration description and see the illusion (shadow) subschool description.

[Chronos]

Yeah, you've got it backwards. The 120% is what you get if you do recognize it as an illusion (via succeeding on your Will save to disbelieve). If you don't recognize it as an illusion, then it does exactly what you think it does, 100%.

[Milo v3]

Well, you can prove it's an illusion with a simple Detect Magic. But, even if it is an illusion, it's still more than real.

[Barbarian Horde]

Lets use summon IV.
My creations are 120% more real. The fact that it is a illusion spell could someone with true seeing or any other similar ability completly negate the spell and act like my monsters dont exist or the fact that the monster is 120% more real stop that from happening?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjurationGreater.htm

This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it can duplicate any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower. The illusory conjurations created deal three-fifths (60%) damage to nonbelievers, and nondamaging effects are 60% likely to work against nonbelievers.

even if they disbelieve it should affect them right?
Wizard5 / HarperMage2 / ShadowcraftMage5 / Shadowcrafter8
clearly boost that past 100%

[Necroticplague]

Lets use summon IV.
My creations are 120% more real. The fact that it is a illusion spell could someone with true seeing or any other similar ability completly negate the spell and act like my monsters dont exist or the fact that the monster is 120% more real stop that from happening?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjurationGreater.htm

This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it can duplicate any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower. The illusory conjurations created deal three-fifths (60%) damage to nonbelievers, and nondamaging effects are 60% likely to work against nonbelievers.

even if the disbelieve it should affect them right?

Actually, True Seeing would make the 120% happen. If they don't know it's an illusion, they are effected by it 100%. If they know its an illusion, they are effected 120%.

As for how it can still be considered an illusion: because it is. In this case, its a mere copy of the spell created by pulling energy from the Plane of Shadow. In case of more than 100% real, you've pulled enough energy to eclipse that the spell normally uses.

[Barbarian Horde]

See thats what I think. It's so annoying to argue the point vs the raw of true seeing.

Would that same ruling work with fog spells such as obscuring mist making them 100% real even if they managed to disprove it was illusion then? Or the fact that it is a fog spell could they even disprove it was an illusion?

[Necroticplague]

See thats what I think. It's so annoying to argue the point vs the raw of true seeing.

Would that same ruling work with fog spells such as obscuring mist making them 100% real even if they managed to disprove it was illusion then? Or the fact that it is a fog spell could they even disprove it was an illusion?

What point of RAW would make you not take damage from the illusion?



You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet. All this does is make you a nonbeliever (which, as per Shadow Conjuration, means you take it's realness damage instead of 100%). Nothing about being immune to illusions, just letting you see through them.

Well, True Seeing lets you see through illusions, so things whose only purpose is to not be seen through won't work, but other fog-like spells would still effect them like normal (i.e, a cinder cloud would still damage them, even if it wouldn't block their vision). And these would be at the 'reality' of the shadow illusion, since they know it's an illusion.

[Afgncaap5]

Logically, this means that the Killer Gnome build should instead be called the Gnome Killer build, since they're more likely to make the save and experience extra damage.

In-universe, this means it'd probably get a name like "Gnome's Bane Magic," and studying to develop these techniques would probably be akin to researching chemical weapons in our world. It's not just fire, it's the Shadow Fire that burns those who are aware of the difference. It's fire that knows that you know, and it hates you for the knowing.

[jiriku]

Logically, this means that the Killer Gnome build should instead be called the Gnome Killer build, since they're more likely to make the save and experience extra damage.

In-universe, this means it'd probably get a name like "Gnome's Bane Magic," and studying to develop these techniques would probably be akin to researching chemical weapons in our world. It's not just fire, it's the Shadow Fire that burns those who are aware of the difference. It's fire that knows that you know, and it hates you for the knowing.

LOL!


Yes, OP, true seeing automatically see through your shadow conjurations. There is nothing, outside of a few Shadow Weave feats in the Forgotten Realms books, that you can do to stop that. But you really WANT your opponent to pack true seeing. Someone with true seeing automatically disbelieves all illusions, because they can see the illusion for what it is. And what it is, is a 120%-strength shadow monster. Now they cannot deceive themselves into believing that you have merely summoned a real monster. They must confront the true horror beneath the veil.

[Milo v3]

It actually makes sense for shadow stuff to be able to become more real than real things. Shadowstuff are warped and distorted reflections of the real world, generally the distortion makes it lesser, but sometimes it might warp in a way that would be beneficial.

[Taelas]

Eh. I'd just rule that at 120% real, the shadow illusions are incredibly obviously shadow illusions (shadow tendrils and whatnot) and make it do 120% all the time. The whole "make the save and it does more damage" is ... not something I want to encourage, frankly.

[Necroticplague]

It actually makes sense for shadow stuff to be able to become more real than real things. Shadowstuff are warped and distorted reflections of the real world, generally the distortion makes it lesser, but sometimes it might warp in a way that would be beneficial.

Or a similar, alternative view: the shadowstuff you put into it is a form of energy. Normally, you can't put as much energy into the spell as the normal version of it can. However, with some training and circumstances, you can manage to cram more shadow energy into the spell than normally is used by the spell it mimics, strengthening its effect.

[Darth Ultron]

I don't like the idea of ''more then 100% real''. So in my game it is simple: shadow illusions can only be 100% real, maximum.

[Mehangel]

I would personally allow it to exceed 100% as I consider it a decent optimization build. Of course the over 100% would only apply to nonbelievers which I find hilarious..

[Raven777]

I would personally allow it to exceed 100% as I consider it a decent optimization build. Of course the over 100% would only apply to nonbelievers which I find hilarious..

I like the explanation that the true horror lies beneath the veil, that one might be made to regret daring to peek behind the curtain.

[Afgncaap5]

I don't like the idea of ''more then 100% real''. So in my game it is simple: shadow illusions can only be 100% real, maximum.

Generally, when there's an optimization trick I like but I don't like what it does to mechanics, I disallow it from actual rules play but have in-story, non-mechanical ways that people can get it to work, usually as an ancient legend players can learn about. (Or that NPC villains can learn about; I have a villain who's heard about the 1d2 Crusader "One hit destroys anything" attack, and he went mad when he couldn't learn it despite his mastery of the technique, with his master just saying that he hadn't achieved the proper zen mindset required. (AKA, didn't take the cleric class level (or whatever) required to truly believe in the divine forces that allowed the build to function.)