Aleax's Singular Enemy

[EugeneVoid]

How do you beat an Aleax that has itself as its Singular Enemy. It doesn't make a huge amount of fluff sense, but lets just be hypothetical here.

[Story]

It's all up to how you interpret the text of Singular Enemy. A liberal interpretation means you can't ever.

You could always try Diplomacy I guess, (though Fanatic won't work since it's a construct)

[eggynack]

You could always try Diplomacy I guess, (though Fanatic won't work since it's a construct)
I'm not entirely sure on this count. Diplomacy is just such an all downside thing for the creature targeted, as having a friendly status relative to the other person does nothing to help you. In some alternate system, where diplomacy is more like it is in reality, with deals at least appearing positive to both parties, it wouldn't necessarily seem like a hindrance, but in this system, it's hard not to see it as such. The fact that, in this case, diplomacy is actively being used as some variety of weapon to beat it, lends credence to the overall argument that it shouldn't work on the aleax.

[Venger]

It's all up to how you interpret the text of Singular Enemy. A liberal interpretation means you can't ever.

You could always try Diplomacy I guess, (though Fanatic won't work since it's a construct)

not really. all it says is it can't be damaged. use stuff besides HP damage like statuses/bfc, etc.

the easiest way would be to just remove singular enemy through trait removal once you can get it to become vulnerable to the requisite fort save, which there are ways around.

if you can somehow trick it into using its shapechange ability to assume a form other than it natural one, you can actually kill it however you like, even HP damage, since it actually loses singular enemy.

[fallensavior]

How do you beat an Aleax that has itself as its Singular Enemy. It doesn't make a huge amount of fluff sense, but lets just be hypothetical here.

It should only be interested in fighting itself then, why bother beating it?

[eggynack]

not really. all it says is it can't be damaged. use stuff besides HP damage like statuses/bfc, etc.
That is not the case. The second line talks about damage, but the first line, which is separate, says that, " Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it." Harm is a broad term, and encompasses things reaching far beyond HP damage. That attacks are rebuffed, dealing no damage, serves to clarify a portion of this ability, but it does not explicitly set a limitation on it. If the text specifically indicated that the second line defines the first, then that'd be a different matter, but as is, the second line is more redundant information giving than something that strictly limits the aleax to HP protection.

Edit:
It should only be interested in fighting itself then, why bother beating it?
Because, typically, the way this hypothetical scenario tends to become not hypothetical is that a caster swaps minds with an ice assassin of an aleax of themselves. Thus, they aren't limited to the general desires of an aleax.

[Venger]

That is not the case. The second line talks about damage, but the first line, which is separate, says that, " Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it." Harm is a broad term, and encompasses things reaching far beyond HP damage. That attacks are rebuffed, dealing no damage, serves to clarify a portion of this ability, but it does not explicitly set a limitation on it. If the text specifically indicated that the second line defines the first, then that'd be a different matter, but as is, the second line is more redundant information giving than something that strictly limits the aleax to HP protection.

Edit:
Because, typically, the way this hypothetical scenario tends to become not hypothetical is that a caster swaps minds with an ice assassin of an aleax of themselves. Thus, they aren't limited to the general desires of an aleax.

I understand.

Since the first sentence is devoid of anything approaching rules, I parsed it as fluff and did, as you said, read the second sentence as a definition of the first.

yeah, the ice assassin thing is probably what's happening

[fallensavior]

Because, typically, the way this hypothetical scenario tends to become not hypothetical is that a caster swaps minds with an ice assassin of an aleax of themselves. Thus, they aren't limited to the general desires of an aleax.

Common sense prevails at my table, and it seems to me that an ability like that would stay with the ego rather than the body. That kind of silliness should always backfire anyway IMO. Playing around with evil twins bent on your destruction is asking for it.

[eggynack]

Common sense prevails at my table, and it seems to me that an ability like that would stay with the ego rather than the body. That kind of silliness should always backfire anyway IMO. Playing around with evil twins bent on your destruction is asking for it.
Sure, you probably wouldn't allow it, but every step of the plan works pretty flawlessly by RAW. The only evil twin bent on your destruction that you're dealing with is one that's subservient to your every command, and it poofs away rather quickly. As noted, it's pretty much a perfect defense, so in a game where direct combat is the norm, the best answer is probably a straight, "No, you can't do that, because it's dumb," rather than some weird backfiring.

At the same time, I think there is an answer, and that answer is not caring about the aleax. Sure, it's unkillable, but let's be honest here, what wizard at level 20 isn't? Games just aren't about killing the other person at that point. They're about conquering planets, and fighting shadow wars with opposing wizards. The weakness of the aleax is that he's likely just one guy, and can therefore only have his finger in so many pies at once. He can take some direct action, but so can his opponents, and they're likely just as unkillable, so it becomes more about high level politics and intrigue than combat, which is at it should be. A defeated wizard aleax is one whose influence over the world has crumbled away to nothing, leaving him with no power short of his direct casting and invulnerability.

Edit: Also, while shapechange seems to ordinarily ditch extraordinary abilities associated with form, aleax shapechange does not, as mentioned in the second to last line of text. Aleaxes are sweet.

[Uncle Pine]

The problem isn't that the Aleax cannot be damaged by anyone who isn't his singular enemy. What makes an Aleax of himself unkillable is that it cannot be hindered by anyone who isn't his singular enemy.
However, killing an Aleax of himself is actually as simple as discovering when exactly the creation of this unkillable creature happened, using Teleport Through Time to go back to a time when this creature didn't exist and kill whoever was going to create it. All while killing all the mosquitos you can find.

[thethird]

You get it to cast an epic spell and die from the backlash.

[fallensavior]

Sure, you probably wouldn't allow it, but every step of the plan works pretty flawlessly by RAW. The only evil twin bent on your destruction that you're dealing with is one that's subservient to your every command, and it poofs away rather quickly. As noted, it's pretty much a perfect defense, so in a game where direct combat is the norm, the best answer is probably a straight, "No, you can't do that, because it's dumb," rather than some weird backfiring.

At the same time, I think there is an answer, and that answer is not caring about the aleax. Sure, it's unkillable, but let's be honest here, what wizard at level 20 isn't? Games just aren't about killing the other person at that point. They're about conquering planets, and fighting shadow wars with opposing wizards. The weakness of the aleax is that he's likely just one guy, and can therefore only have his finger in so many pies at once. He can take some direct action, but so can his opponents, and they're likely just as unkillable, so it becomes more about high level politics and intrigue than combat, which is at it should be. A defeated wizard aleax is one whose influence over the world has crumbled away to nothing, leaving him with no power short of his direct casting and invulnerability.

Edit: Also, while shapechange seems to ordinarily ditch extraordinary abilities associated with form, aleax shapechange does not, as mentioned in the second to last line of text. Aleaxes are sweet.

Meh. There's too many variables for it to be foolproof IMO, unless your DM is a doormat.

How do you know that the Ice Assassin isn't going to subvert your commands to destroy you while not disobeying? What if it gets the jump on you before you're able to even give it any commands? What is the Aleax's mind going to do (to your body) while it's in your body? Etc. The DM can abuse poor wording at least as much as any player, and they might as well make it a teaching moment instead of simply saying no.

The point is, regardless of how they are written, that is obviously not how they are intended.

[eggynack]

Meh. There's too many variables for it to be foolproof IMO, unless your DM is a doormat.
I rather disagree. There just aren't that many variables at work in this particular situation that can't be managed. I mean, you're only doing this once, so putting in the effort in that one situation is smart.


How do you know that the Ice Assassin isn't going to subvert your commands to destroy you while not disobeying? What if it gets the jump on you before you're able to even give it any commands?
Because it's not just under your command. It's under your absolute telepathic command. There isn't that much room for subversion there, and there's not really time before telepathic commands to get a jump. If you're playing with a long term ice assassin, then it's still difficult for it to subvert your commands, but you don't even have to go that far. You're mind switching basically as soon as possible, so your few commands can be along the lines of, "Don't move, don't attack anything, and allow this mindswitch." Little room for subversion, and what room there is is defeated by the little time to subvert.


What is the Aleax's mind going to do (to your body) while it's in your body? Etc.
Worst case scenario, nothing, because you killed your original body and ate the level loss. Best case scenario, help you out, because it's still under your absolute telepathic command, and now cannot even manage to harm you.

The DM can abuse poor wording at least as much as any player, and they might as well make it a teaching moment instead of simply saying no.
So, in conclusion, not really. You can fiat your way through it, but you can fiat your way through anything if you really want, and at that point you're just starting up a silly fiat versus optimization arms race. What are you teaching at this point? That you'll change the rules if the rules are inconvenient to you, and not just politely explain to the player that you don't want this thing to happen? I don't think you can stop this plan, short of serious outside intervention, within the context of the rules, and and I don't think you should stop it outside the context of the rules.

The point is, regardless of how they are written, that is obviously not how they are intended.
Well, sure, I guess. However, I feel like we left intent behind when you started arguing that this could be made to not work within the rules. In any case few of the things in this game likely turned out as the designers intended, so I don't see much reason to single this out on that basis.

[fallensavior]

Why wouldn't it attack you as soon as you finish casting the IA spell? Is there a rule stating that "absolute telepathic command" means that you automatically win initiative? The precedent of similar abilities is a move action to give instructions.

[Evolved Shrimp]

How do you beat an Aleax that has itself as its Singular Enemy. It doesn't make a huge amount of fluff sense, but lets just be hypothetical here.

It also doesn’t make much crunch sense: An aleax has the statistics of its intended victim. There is no mention of any possibility to switch intended victims after the creation of the aleax (and the fluff very strongly argues against this possibility).

So an aleax cannot be created with itself as the intended victim, because it requires a creature to acquire stats from, which therefore must exist before the aleax is created. And neither can the aleax be retargeted to itself after having been created. Therefore it is not possible for an aleax to be its own singular victim.

(As a sidenote, by RAW PCs cannot create aleaxes: The description of the aleax clearly states that only a deity can create an aleax, and then only one per god. Shape changing into an aleax is not absolutely excluded, but should draw the deities’ ire, and so is also a questionable optimization approach.)

[Uncle Pine]

Why wouldn't it attack you as soon as you finish casting the IA spell? Is there a rule stating that "absolute telepathic command" means that you automatically win initiative? The precedent of similar abilities is a move action to give instructions.

Look, it's right in the spell description:

The ice assassin is under your absolute command.
The fact that said Ice Assassin has the stats of an Aleax of yourself is irrelevant: you could've made an Ice Assassin of Mr. Iamasaintanddontmurderinnocents and you could still order him to kill a couple of helpless goblin infants you tied especially for the occasion.
The telepathic bond part is also explained in the spell's description.

[eggynack]

Why wouldn't it attack you as soon as you finish casting the IA spell? Is there a rule stating that "absolute telepathic command" means that you automatically win initiative? The precedent of similar abilities is a move action to give instructions.
Most similar abilities require you to actually verbalize instructions in some manner, and for the creature to take any sort of commanding to follow them. The command being telepathic and absolute means that there's no real time delay, and, of course, the ability in this case has no such move action listed.

Edit:

(As a sidenote, by RAW PCs cannot create aleaxes: The description of the aleax clearly states that only a deity can create an aleax, and then only one per god. Shape changing into an aleax is not absolutely excluded, but should draw the deities’ ire, and so is also a questionable optimization approach.)
Not directly, certainly, but there's nothing stopping you from creating an ice assassin of one.

Double-edit: Of course, on the aleax attack point, there are pretty clear defenses against such a thing. Contingencies and astral projections can allow you to weather such an attack rather ably, at least for a round, and if you need to wait for your turn, then you can do so behind the power of that shield. A contingency of the form, "If an aleax attacks me, then I teleport half a mile away," could work pretty well for this.

[fallensavior]

Look, it's right in the spell description:

The fact that said Ice Assassin has the stats of an Aleax of yourself is irrelevant: you could've made an Ice Assassin of Mr. Iamasaintanddontmurderinnocents and you could still order him to kill a couple of helpless goblin infants you tied especially for the occasion.
The telepathic bond part is also explained in the spell's description.

It can be under your control, but an ice assassin of yourself or your aleax is still going to try to destroy you until you specfically order it not to. Thus, rolling initiative as soon as the spell completes.

Unless you're arguing that the IA cannot take any action unless explicitly ordered, which makes it worthless since you'd have to be constantly wasting move actions to redirect it.

[fallensavior]

Most similar abilities require you to actually verbalize instructions in some manner, and for the creature to take any sort of commanding to follow them. The command being telepathic and absolute means that there's no real time delay, and, of course, the ability in this case has no such move action listed.


Domination spells are telepathic and don't even require a language in common. They still require a move action to redirect the spell.

[eggynack]

Unless you're arguing that the IA cannot take any action unless explicitly ordered, which makes it worthless since you'd have to be constantly wasting move actions to redirect it.
That's not really an issue. "Attack your assigned target to the best of your abilities," is a pretty clear cut order, and, of course, the move action thing is pretty far from an issue in this particular case. Anyway, it all seems rather irrelevant. Dealing with a round of attacks as a 17th level wizard, especially when you get to set the exact parameters of the aleax's loadout (because he is you), is a rather trivial task.

Edit:
Domination spells are telepathic and don't even require a language in common. They still require a move action to redirect the spell.
There's no spell to redirect here. The control is a direct function of the ice assassin's nature as an ice assassin, rather than a function of some outside acting force that you need to manipulate. To put it another way, giving telepathic commands to the ice assassin, unlike giving them to the dominated person, is not the equivalent of redirecting a spell.

[fallensavior]

That's not really an issue. "Attack your assigned target to the best of your abilities," is a pretty clear cut order, and, of course, the move action thing is pretty far from an issue in this particular case. Anyway, it all seems rather irrelevant. Dealing with a round of attacks as a 17th level wizard, especially when you get to set the exact parameters of the aleax's loadout (because he is you), is a rather trivial task.

It would be trivial if the IA were not a 17th level wizard that knows all of your tricks, and the spell does not say that you get to set any exact parameters. Also, "Attack your assigned target to the best of your abilities," you just ordered it to attack you.


Edit:
There's no spell to redirect here. The control is a direct function of the ice assassin's nature as an ice assassin, rather than a function of some outside acting force that you need to manipulate. To put it another way, giving telepathic commands to the ice assassin, unlike giving them to the dominated person, is not the equivalent of redirecting a spell.

It is a spell. I see no rules support for what you are declaring here. Is this player fiat?

[Uncle Pine]

It can be under your control, but an ice assassin of yourself or your aleax is still going to try to destroy you until you specfically order it not to. Thus, rolling initiative as soon as the spell completes.

Ok, let's do a step by step analysis:

Ice Assassin
(Frostburn)

Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sorcerer 9, Wizard 9,
Components: V, S, M, XP,
Casting Time: 8 hours
Range: Touch
Effect: One duplicate creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: No
No problems here: it's just a powerful spell that takes a lot of time to cast (but see Uncanny Forethought).


The ice assassin spell is in many ways an improved version of simulacrum.
Developed by powerful frost mages who have more than their fair share of enemies to fight, an ice assassin is an effective way to destroy an enemy without putting yourself at risk.
Fluff.


An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature.
The duplicate is formed entirely out of ice, but once the spell is in effect, it appears as an exact duplicate to all but its source, who always sees the ice assassin as an animated ice statue of himself.
More fluff, more or less. It also describes how the victim sees his Aleax. (= The victim here being an Aleax of yourself, who may or may not exist yet).


The ice assassin possesses all the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original.
It also constantly uses locate creature on its duplicate at a caster level equal to your own.
If its quarry is outside the range of this effect, the ice assassin must rely on its own cleverness or advice from you to track the original.
The IA is a good tracker. He also has all the stats of his victim. As the victim is an Aleax of yourself (again, who may or may not exist yet), the IA has all your skills and abilities plus some others cool things (see the Aleax template). The IA doesn't retain his victim personality or goals. Instead, the IA simply wants to kill his victim.


The ice assassin has the cold subtype.
Beware: the IA is highly flammable.


Creatures familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check.
You must make a Disguise check (gaining a +10 circumstance bonus from the power of the spell) when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is.
The IA may look like his victim, but a skilled observer can spot the difference between him and his victim.


The ice assassin is under your absolute command.
You possess a telepathic link to the ice assassin, and when you concentrate, you receive a clear image of the area surrounding the ice assassin as if you were scrying it.
IAs make great mooks! You can direct them to do whatever bothersome task you can conceive (from trimming your fingernails to mind switch with you). Again, as IAs don't retain the personalities of their victims and simply want to kill them, there shouldn't be any problem. The victim of your IA is an Aleax of yourself, so the IA simply wants to kill it (if the Aleax doesn't exist, the IA will just feel profound hatred against a nonexistent creature*). The IA doesn't have anything against you, so you should be safe.
*This is possible, as weird as it may sound. I, for example, would gladly kill an enraged goblin if given the chance, even though goblins (probably) don't exist.


Further, you can have any spell you cast on yourself affect the ice assassin as well; this includes spells with a target of "You" only.
These benefits persist as long as you and the ice assassin remain within a mile of each other.
IAs are easily buffed. Hooray!


If the ice assassin travels beyond this range, it continues to function and seek out its nemesis, but you have no direct control over it.
If you plan to part ways from your IA, remember to give him clear instructions.


An ice assassin has no ability to become more powerful; it cannot increase its level or abilities.
Damage caused to the ice assassin can be repaired only via a complex process requiring 1 day, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped laboratory.
If the ice assassin is reduced to 0 hit points by any damage except for fire damage, it explodes into a burst of icy shrapnel in a 20-foot radius that causes 1d6 points of cold damage for every two caster levels you possess; a successful Reflex saving throw halves the damage.
An ice assassin slain by fire damage simply melts into a pool of water.
An IA can't grow. Keep IAs outside the reach of children, as it may explode. You can also repair your IA to avoid explosions.


Material Component: This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated.
Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed.
In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000 gp.
XP Cost: 5,000.
Finally, this is what you actually need to cast the spell: namely 5.000 xp (but see thought bottles abuse, I won't go into details because I'm not familiar with them), a chaos flask (used to cheaply emulate the required powdered diamond) and a spell component pouch (thanks to which you will be assumed to have a portion of an Aleax of yourself, as it's a component without a listed price).

TL;DR: An IA of an Aleax of yourself won't try to kill you. He'll instead try to kill an Aleax of yourself, if given the chance.

[eggynack]

It would be trivial if the IA were not a 17th level wizard that knows all of your tricks, and the spell does not say that you get to set any exact parameters.
The spell does let you set the parameters, because the creature in question is you, and you get to decide what you have. It doesn't even matter if it knows your tricks, because you know all of its tricks, and can be astrally projected if you want.


Also, "Attack your assigned target to the best of your abilities," you just ordered it to attack you.
That was an example order in case you want to use the spell in another fashion. If you just want to mind switch, then who cares about the specificity of the orders you have to give, and how you have to give them?



It is a spell. I see no rules support for what you are declaring here. Is this player fiat?
The ice assassin casting is a spell. The mental control isn't a continuous spell effect, primarily because ice assassin is instantaneous. As soon as you're done casting, there is no spell involved. By contrast, dominate person has a duration, and thus the continual process involves a spell. In the case of ice assassin, the lack of spell after the actual casting phase means that it is fundamentally impossible for there to be a spell to redirect.

[Darkweave31]

Talking is a free action that can be taken on another creature's turn. If you're a wizard, who's to say the ice assassin even has a spellbook or has prepared spells. The ice assassin also will not have any of your buffs and contingencies. Finally the ice assassin's personality is warped by an all consuming need to slay the original. In this case your aleax.

[Chronos]

There are a few issues. First, the Ice Assassin spell contains two absolutes, which, in this case, are in conflict with each other: It follows your commands absolutely, but it also has an overriding drive to destroy its target. How does it do both? There are actually a few ways to resolve the paradox, but none of them ends up being good for you. For instance, if you order it to destroy you, then there's no paradox. Further, one could take the very casting of the spell itself as an implicit order for it to destroy you. So, it destroys you, just like you wanted.

Second, what makes anyone think that one can create an Ice Assassin of a creature that doesn't even exist? In order to create an ice assassin of an aleax, the aleax must first exist. Which means that the first step of this trick is to piss off a being incomparably more powerful than you to the point that that being is using its best tricks to destroy you. This seems less than prudent.

Third, it assumes that the ice assassin of the aleax does not retain its desire to kill you after you mind-switch into it. No, ordinarily the body doesn't retain desires like that through a mind switch, but then, bodies don't usually have built-in desires at all. Both aleaxes and ice assassins, though, are defined by their desire to destroy their targets. It seems to me that that drive to destroy is just as much of the aleax as is its "cannot be harmed by anyone else" ability.

[eggynack]

There are a few issues. First, the Ice Assassin spell contains two absolutes, which, in this case, are in conflict with each other: It follows your commands absolutely, but it also has an overriding drive to destroy its target. How does it do both? There are actually a few ways to resolve the paradox, but none of them ends up being good for you. For instance, if you order it to destroy you, then there's no paradox. Further, one could take the very casting of the spell itself as an implicit order for it to destroy you. So, it destroys you, just like you wanted.
There is no paradox. There is an all consuming drive, but not one that is, as you put it, overriding, and that does not mean that you cannot successfully command it to not kill you.


Second, what makes anyone think that one can create an Ice Assassin of a creature that doesn't even exist? In order to create an ice assassin of an aleax, the aleax must first exist. Which means that the first step of this trick is to piss off a being incomparably more powerful than you to the point that that being is using its best tricks to destroy you. This seems less than prudent.
The general method is to wish for a scroll of ice assassin of the creature in question, which handles the material component issue just fine. No pissing off a deity required.


Third, it assumes that the ice assassin of the aleax does not retain its desire to kill you after you mind-switch into it. No, ordinarily the body doesn't retain desires like that through a mind switch, but then, bodies don't usually have built-in desires at all. Both aleaxes and ice assassins, though, are defined by their desire to destroy their targets. It seems to me that that drive to destroy is just as much of the aleax as is its "cannot be harmed by anyone else" ability.
As long as these things aren't abilities of the creatures in question, and they very much are not, then they're strictly mental, because that's what desires are, built-in or not. There's nothing that really indicates otherwise.

[Chronos]

The general method is to wish for a scroll of ice assassin of the creature in question,...
Of what creature in question? There is no such creature.

And I misremembered the wording of the ice assassin's drive, but it doesn't matter. "All-consuming" is still an absolute. If it can follow your command to not kill the target, then the drive is no longer all-consuming.

[Evolved Shrimp]

[Regarding the statement that player’s cannot create aleaxes by RAW] Not directly, certainly, but there's nothing stopping you from creating an ice assassin of one.

Well, for suitable values of “nothing”…

Consider what is needed to create an ice assassin:

A creature to be duplicated. So, the aleax of the desired target creature must already exist before the ice assassin can be created, which puts us back on square one: Only deity can do this, not a PC.
A piece of that creature (hair or the like). To put it mildly, getting this will not be trivial if the aleax is of the PC who wants to do this.

So it seems that creating an ice assassin of an aleax of a particular person is every bit as difficult as creating the aleax, and then some.

[eggynack]

Of what creature in question? There is no such creature.
Y'know, I thought that existence wasn't a prerequisite for the spell, and it was obviated by the copying of material components, but the spell does specify that you're creating an existing creature. Better bring that one up to Tippy next time this stuff comes up.


And I misremembered the wording of the ice assassin's drive, but it doesn't matter. "All-consuming" is still an absolute. If it can follow your command to not kill the target, then the drive is no longer all-consuming.
All consuming drive means that the creature always wants to do this thing, not that they always have to do this thing.

[Kazyan]

Sure, it's unkillable, but let's be honest here, what wizard at level 20 isn't? Games just aren't about killing the other person at that point. They're about conquering planets, and fighting shadow wars with opposing wizards. The weakness of the aleax is that he's likely just one guy, and can therefore only have his finger in so many pies at once. He can take some direct action, but so can his opponents, and they're likely just as unkillable, so it becomes more about high level politics and intrigue than combat, which is at it should be. A defeated wizard aleax is one whose influence over the world has crumbled away to nothing, leaving him with no power short of his direct casting and invulnerability.

Man, I remember when this game was about dungeons, and maybe a dragon here and there.

[Uncle Pine]

There are a few issues. First, the Ice Assassin spell contains two absolutes, which, in this case, are in conflict with each other: It follows your commands absolutely, but it also has an overriding drive to destroy its target. How does it do both? There are actually a few ways to resolve the paradox, but none of them ends up being good for you. For instance, if you order it to destroy you, then there's no paradox. Further, one could take the very casting of the spell itself as an implicit order for it to destroy you. So, it destroys you, just like you wanted.
You're not the target of an IA of an Aleax of yourself. The target of an IA of an Aleax of yourself is, by definition, an Aleax of yourself.


Second, what makes anyone think that one can create an Ice Assassin of a creature that doesn't even exist?
The fact that you simply need a portion of a creature to make an IA of it, and that acquiring a portion of a nonexistent creature is as simple as acquiring a fingernail of Olidammara (that's how spell component pouches work). As a free action.


Third, it assumes that the ice assassin of the aleax does not retain its desire to kill you after you mind-switch into it. No, ordinarily the body doesn't retain desires like that through a mind switch, but then, bodies don't usually have built-in desires at all. Both aleaxes and ice assassins, though, are defined by their desire to destroy their targets. It seems to me that that drive to destroy is just as much of the aleax as is its "cannot be harmed by anyone else" ability.
An IA of an Aleax of yourself, as already stated, has no desire to kill you that it could or couldn't retain after a mind switch. An Aleax desire to kill isn't "built-in" in the way you think it is: it isn't something that an IA retains, so there is no paradox.

EDIT: Partially swordsage'd, I guess.

[Venger]

Edit: Also, while shapechange seems to ordinarily ditch extraordinary abilities associated with form, aleax shapechange does not, as mentioned in the second to last line of text. Aleaxes are sweet.

then if its shapechange form is not a construct, blast it with trait removal turned into a SLA or otherwise cast as a reasonable action to remove its singular enemy ability if you want to kill it.


It also doesn’t make much crunch sense: An aleax has the statistics of its intended victim. There is no mention of any possibility to switch intended victims after the creation of the aleax (and the fluff very strongly argues against this possibility).

So an aleax cannot be created with itself as the intended victim, because it requires a creature to acquire stats from, which therefore must exist before the aleax is created. And neither can the aleax be retargeted to itself after having been created. Therefore it is not possible for an aleax to be its own singular victim.

(As a sidenote, by RAW PCs cannot create aleaxes: The description of the aleax clearly states that only a deity can create an aleax, and then only one per god. Shape changing into an aleax is not absolutely excluded, but should draw the deities’ ire, and so is also a questionable optimization approach.)

either be a deity yourself, or just make an ice assassin of one to build an aleax for you. it's not like it's hard.

[Werephilosopher]

The fact that you simply need a portion of a creature to make an IA of it, and that acquiring a portion of a nonexistent creature is as simple as acquiring a fingernail of Olidammara (that's how spell component pouches work). As a free action.

That doesn't matter though, because

An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature.

[Uncle Pine]

That doesn't matter though, because
Hmm... I didn't notice that. Good catch!

Now, can the fact that the victim of an Ice Assassin has to be an existing creature mitigated by, say, carefully wording a wish for an Aleax of a 1st level version of yourself? Or is there a more foolproof method to circumvent this limitation?

[eggynack]

then if its shapechange form is not a construct, blast it with trait removal turned into a SLA or otherwise cast as a reasonable action to remove its singular enemy ability if you want to kill it.

That would require that removing the creature's main defense not be harmful, which is a thing I'm rather doubtful of.

[EugeneVoid]

I don't really want to argue about its origin or even its statistics. What if a rabbit or a housecat had the ability "Singular Enemy" without the fluff? How would someone go about killing (or disabling or even hindering) something that by definition cannot be hindered or hurt?

Btw: Thanks everyone for your answers so far.

[eggynack]

I don't really want to argue about its origin or even its statistics. What if a rabbit or a housecat had the ability "Singular Enemy" without the fluff? How would someone go about killing (or disabling or even hindering) something that by definition cannot be hindered or hurt?

It's possible that instantaneous effects can work against singular enemy. Basically, either you can use a wall of stone to block off an aleax, or aleaxes are fully capable of phasing through any solid object. The trick is that the effect in question be relatively disconnected from you after you use it.

[Uncle Pine]

Teleport Through Time also works splendidly.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Now, can the fact that the victim of an Ice Assassin has to be an existing creature mitigated by, say, carefully wording a wish for an Aleax of a 1st level version of yourself?

Not by RAW: An aleax can only be created by a deity, not in any other way. (And it has to be of a currently existing creature, not an imaginary one, like a weaker version of yourself would be.)

Now, you could wish for a creature that is in any respect like an aleax, except that it isn't one. That, however, clearly goes beyond what is safe to wish for and thus is subject to DM adjudication. In fact, you could argue that the wish is very unlikely to work, because it would require power beyond what even a god could provide (given that even a god can only create one aleax at a time, and this wish would open the door to what effectively are unlimited aleaxes.)

[Uncle Pine]

Not by RAW: An aleax can only be created by a deity, not in any other way. (And it has to be of a currently existing creature, not an imaginary one, like a weaker version of yourself would be.)

Now, you could wish for a creature that is in any respect like an aleax, except that it isn't one. That, however, clearly goes beyond what is safe to wish for and thus is subject to DM adjudication. In fact, you could argue that the wish is very unlikely to work, because it would require power beyond what even a god could provide (given that even a god can only create one aleax at a time, and this wish would open the door to what effectively are unlimited aleaxes.)

A. You're not going to create unlimited Aleaxes: what you're creating are Ice Assassin Aleaxes, which are entirely different things.

B. 1. Buy a Thought Bottle (to minimize losses) and a spellblade of Shapechange (if necessary, see below).
2. Cast Teleport Through Time (to when you were 1st level).
3. Cast Miracle to create an Aleax of your 1st level self. If your deity won't accept to make you a custom Aleax, do the trick with a different deity patron: I'm sure there are some deities savvy enough to value a nigh-invincible ally (which would be you).
(3.5. OPTIONAL STEP: if it's possible to block Aleaxes with istantaneous effect, track the Aleax of your 1st level self and encase it inside multiple walls of stone.)
4. Cast Ice Assassin to create an IA Aleax of your 1st level self (possibly as a full-round action, to minimize the risk that the Aleax of your 1st level self finds your 1st level self, terminating the both of you).

TL;DR: Skip to 5.3 if you're in a hurry.

5.1. ASK YOUR DM: If you and your 1st level self count as the same target for the Aleax of your 1st level self (Teleport Through Time's description implies that this isn't the case, but you never know), kill the Aleax and proceed mind switching with the IA Aleax of your 1st level self, etc. as normal. If you and your 1st level self don't count as the same target, skip to 5.2.
5.2. Track your 1st level self and the Aleax of your 1st level self (also, free it if you have previously encased it inside multiple walls of stone) and give the IA the spellblade of Shapechange. When your 1st level self and his Aleax are about to meet, share Shapechange with the IA and have it redirect the spell to your 1st level spell (this can be done in a 1 mile radius, so you don't have to "meet" your 1st level self). Have your 1st level self (Shapechanged with a CL of 20+) kill the Aleax of your 1st level self (Shapechanged with a measly CL of 20). If you don't want to open a debate over the odds of a CL 20+ Shapechange to best a CL 20 Shapechange and/or don't mind to serve that great guy that made all of this possible (your deity) for a while, skip to 5.3. Otherwise, proceed mind switching with the IA Aleax of your 1st level self, etc. as normal after your 1st level self killed the Aleax.
5.3. Your 1st level self dies and is teleported in front of your deity. He does what he is asked to do. You proceed mind switching with the IA Aleax of your 1st level self, etc. as normal.


I'm sorry if the above may sound excessively convoluted. To summarize, while I admit that mind switching with an Aleax is more difficult than it may look, the trick ultimately works (even though it requires a bit more resources).

[Evolved Shrimp]

You're not going to create unlimited Aleaxes: what you're creating are Ice Assassin Aleaxes, which are entirely different things.

Yes, but the question was “Is it possible to wish an aleax-like creature into existence?” If that was possible, there is no obvious reason why it wouldn’t be possible to have two of them, three, four, …. However, creating that many aleaxes is apparently beyond the power of even major gods, so it seems reasonable to conclude that that wish would not be possible.


Cast Miracle to create an Aleax of your 1st level self. If your deity won't accept to make you a custom Aleax, do the trick with a different deity patron: I'm sure there are some deities savvy enough to value a nigh-invincible ally (which would be you).

An aleax, by RAW, cannot be created by the miracle spell, it can only be created by a god directly (and even then with limitations).

Of course, one can imagine that it was possible to persuade a god to create an aleax on one’s behalf (similar to the suggestion above to find an amenable patron deity). But that takes us deep into plot territory: The god, a major NPC, would have to actively decide to want to take part in that scheme.

And if we go there – if we assume that it is possible to get a deity to do one’s bidding works in this way (say, if one has a sky-high diplomacy score) – why aim so low as to request an aleax for a convoluted scheme? Why not simply assume that the god can be persuaded to hand over all his powers, possessions, and portfolios – much simpler and much more effective.

Alternatively, one could houserule away the troublesome aspects of aleaxes and/or ice assassins, which would seem to me the most straightforward way to get this scheme to work.

[Uncle Pine]

An aleax, by RAW, cannot be created by the miracle spell, it can only be created by a god directly (and even then with limitations).
That's why you're casting Miracle. To ask your deity to create one. Which is exactly the point of miracle:

You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.



Of course, one can imagine that it was possible to persuade a god to create an aleax on one’s behalf (similar to the suggestion above to find an amenable patron deity). But that takes us deep into plot territory: The god, a major NPC, would have to actively decide to want to take part in that scheme.

And if we go there – if we assume that it is possible to get a deity to do one’s bidding works in this way (say, if one has a sky-high diplomacy score) – why aim so low as to request an aleax for a convoluted scheme? Why not simply assume that the god can be persuaded to hand over all his powers, possessions, and portfolios – much simpler and much more effective.
I'll try to summarize this in two question, then answer them: "why aren't we simply using the Diplomacy skill to make any god and/or major/minor NPC do whatever we want?" and "why aim so low as to request an aleax for a convoluted scheme?".
The answer to the former question is: "because this isn't a thread about Diplomacy. It is indeed possible for any character with a bonus of at least +159 to his Diplomacy checks to persuade a god to do his bidding works in every way, but that's a bit cheesy so let's avoid it."
The answer to the latter is: "because the OP didn't ask how a 20th level Wizard could become invulnerable by mind switching with an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of himself to acquire Singular Enemy (himself), which apparently requires said Aleax to exist during the casting of the Ice Assassin spell, but we're trying to figure out the most elegant way to achieve this goal anyway, as the commonly mentioned method is clearly not RAW and no one else seems to know better ways to kill/disable a character with Singular Enemy (itself) than Wall of Stones and Teleport Through Time."