Winter Solstice - When does the southern year end again?

[Firemage]

I think Veldrina mentioned the winter solstice for one important reason the forum seemed to have forgotten: Belkar's death before the year ends.

So is the southern calendar like ours with winter solstice beeing 10 days before the year ends or is the solstice the end of the year? I guess the latter!
Which means Belkar is probably alive for 24 more hours at most!

[ellindsey]

I think Veldrina mentioned the winter solstice for one important reason the forum seemed to have forgotten: Belkar's death before the year ends.

So is the southern calendar like ours with winter solstice beeing 10 days before the year ends or is the solstice the end of the year? I guess the latter!
Which means Belkar is probably alive for 24 more hours at most!

It's not the same calendar. Winter solstice doesn't mark the end of the year of the calendar that the Oracle was using, so he has more like a few weeks still.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Word of Giant is that the Oracle's prediction is linked to the Northern Calendar, since that's what the customers used. After all, the Oracle is known for his customer service; not one complaint has ever been filed with the BBB.:smallwink:

And we know from the start of W&XPs that the Southern Calendar has its New Year celebration a couple months after the Northern one.

[Keltest]

Word of Giant is that the Oracle's prediction is linked to the Northern Calendar, since that's what the customers used. After all, the Oracle is known for his customer service; not one complaint has ever been filed with the BBB.:smallwink:

Oh is it now? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?153099-How-much-time-has-passed-since-the-beginning-of-OotS&p=8569129#post8569129)

[Ornithologist]

Unfortunatly, we don't know when the winter solstice happens in relation to the end of a northern year (the Giant has not said how close it mirrors our calander timing aside from length). Unless a character comes out and says its x days until the new southern year, we still have only speculation.

That being said:

Take comfort in the fact that every comic where Belkar doesn't die is one close to the one where he does die. As well, provided the comic doesn't end before the end of the year, the chances of Belkar dying will rise to a 1/1 chance eventually.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, if the Northern calendar follows ours, Belkar has like 10 days of life left.

But don't be worried by that. As the previous book shown, a couple of days in OOTS can mean hundreds of comic pages and years of real-life time.

[dtilque]

Once we find out when the Southern New Year is, you need to add about three days: a few days (panel 6) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) still two days from the entrance (panel 2) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html)

ETA: It doesn't matter when the Northern New Year is; the visit to the Oracle was made a few days after the Southern New Year, and that's the time we're counting a year from.

[Ornithologist]

The problem is that in ancient cultures, the winter solstice (Dec 21st) was the end of year. In our moden calender, it's 10 days away.

Also, if we can suppose that the northern calender matches the European calander, and the southern matches the "Chinese" calander, then that puts winter solstice a further 31 to 60 days away from the end of the southern year. (Jan 21st to Feb 20th, depending on the cycle of the moon.)

Also, they just said solstice. It could be the summer solstice, which ruins all of the above math.

So... if you can find how the Giant wants the solstice to relate to the end of year, then we can proceed.

[dtilque]

The problem is that in ancient cultures, the winter solstice (Dec 21st) was the end of year. In our moden calender, it's 10 days away.

Not all of them. Some used the Spring Equinox. In fact, in Britain until about 3 centuries ago, the year was considered to start on March 25, which was a nominal equinox.


Also, they just said solstice. It could be the summer solstice, which ruins all of the above math.

The Southern Lands summer solstice could be the Northern Lands winter solstice. It depends on where the equator is, which we don't know.

[Yanisa]

I think Veldrina mentioned the winter solstice for one important reason the forum seemed to have forgotten: Belkar's death before the year ends.

So is the southern calendar like ours with winter solstice beeing 10 days before the year ends or is the solstice the end of the year? I guess the latter!
Which means Belkar is probably alive for 24 more hours at most!

24 hours? More like 24 days (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361715-Countdown-to-Belkar-s-Death-Scene) :smalltongue: (Every comic past Strip 963 has been the same single day as far as I could tell.)

Which incidentally means the winter solstice of the Dwarven Lands happens 23 before the end of the year of the Southern Calendar.

[Kantaki]

The main problem is that we don't know how the Stick-verse calendar(s) work(s), as far as we know the winter soltice could be around the halfway mark of the year. So I would say that Belkar has as much time left as he needs to play his part in this tale.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We know that we have roughly 3 weeks until the end of the Southern Year (per the link that Yasina provided). Given that the Winter Solstice that Veldrina is talking about is most likely on the Northern Calendar and an inestimable time away from the end of the year, it doesn't really tell us anything.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Not all of them. Some used the Spring Equinox. In fact, in Britain until about 3 centuries ago, the year was considered to start on March 25, which was a nominal equinox.

Nope. The 25th of March is Lady Day, the Feast of the Virgin Mary. Since it's nine months before the Christ Mass on the 25th of December.

[Ornithologist]

I'm pretty sure that they are refering to the pagan calander used before the island was converted to christianity. Also, we're talking a religion that used to commandeer holidays and feast days to help convert a local population.

[dtilque]

Nope. The 25th of March is Lady Day, the Feast of the Virgin Mary. Since it's nine months before the Christ Mass on the 25th of December.

Yes, it is, but Lady Day is also on a nominal equinox.


I'm pretty sure that they are refering to the pagan calander used before the island was converted to christianity.

No, it has to do with the Julian calendar. When Caesar reformed the Roman calendar (which year began on Jan 1, by the way), the winter soltice was on Dec 251. Despite the fact that the Julian calendar was a bit too long and the actual solstices and equinoxes were moving to earlier dates, Dec 25 remained the nominal solstice long enough for Christmas to be assigned to that date. (Why they assigned it to the solstice is a matter of some argument, but that's not an issue here.) At any rate, Lady Day (or the Annunciation) is exactly nine months before Christmas, so it was on a nominal spring equinox.



1 More or less. Because of the extra fractional day of the tropical year and leap years, the solstices and equinoxes will always move between two dates over the course of every 4 year period.

[Ornithologist]

See, all of my calander facts came from my astronomy class, not a history class. Still, Romans did love messing with dates.

[Peelee]

See, all of my calander facts came from my astronomy class, not a history class. Still, Romans did love messing with dates.

DID THEY EVER!
See, it used to be January and February were at the end of the year by the time Julius Caesar came around (sorry, dtilque!), and boy oh boy did he like being Julius Caesar. So much so, in fact, that he up and renamed his birth month after himself - and thus, July was born! Of course, his birth month only had 30 days, and he couldn't very well have that, now could he? His month was going to be the BEST month, dammit! So he took a day from the end of the year - February, remember - and added it to his own, giving himself 31 days. And after he died, Caesar Augustus wasn't going to let himself be overshadowed by that last Caesar just because his name was Caesar. So he took the next month and named it after himself, because at that point, it's just what you do. And the month of Augustus couldn't have fewer days than July, so he done took another day from the end of the year, because who cares about then? You just want a new year when that's rolling around. And about 800 years later, they decided to toss January and February into the beginning of the year, because Janus was the two-faced Roman god and, c'mon, that sounds pretty awesome for symbolism when you're talking about a new year; one face looking back, the other looking forward. Of course, that screwed up the established nomenclature that was going on - September, October, November, and December correlate nicely to 7, 8, 9, and 10, respectively, but are now the 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th months, because of that pesky January/February shift. And since February is no longer at the end of the year, but kind of in the middle-ish of the first block of months, the whole 28 days thing seems weird and incongruous. But it totally made sense at the time, if you account for ego.

Oh, those wacky Romans.

[littlebum2002]

Peelee's Ye Olde Historye.
Hooray knowledge!
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/7/7c/Themoreyouknow.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081023004830

[Rogar Demonblud]

DID THEY EVER!

Oh, those wacky Romans.

It should be noted, in further support of the lesson, that July used to be Quintus and August Sextus (that is, 5 and 6).

Also, the winter solstice is important in the Mithraic sun cult, which was rather popular in Rome a couple thousand years ago. And Easter/Ostern came about right when the Church was working to convert all of those pesky Germans.

[dtilque]

See, it used to be January and February were at the end of the year by the time Julius Caesar came around (sorry, dtilque!),

You should be sorry for posting so much misinformation. I'm not going to rebut everything you posted (see the wiki page for the Julian Calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar) for more info than you probably want), but I'll hit a few high points.

At one time, the Roman calendar only had 10 months, which is why the names for September through December. January and Feb were just an intercalary period. But that was long before Caesar. By the time of Caesar, they'd long since been added to the calendar and the Consuls' terms of office started on January 1. I think Senate sessions also started on that day.

As for the added days to the months, that was part of Caesar's reform, but not in the way you put it. Before his reform, the Roman calendar had only 355 days in its year (every other year, they were supposed to add an intercalary month of about 22 days). Caesar abolished this intercalary month and added 10 days spread out among various months and then the leap day in February. This stabilized the calendar, because now the Pontifex Maximus (high priest) couldn't play politics with when he added intercalary months.

[Peelee]

Lots.

Welp, at least I apologized pre-emptively. And thus I learned firsthand how unreliable foggy fifteen-year-old memories are.

[The Pilgrim]

The romans started the year in March, because that was the beggining of the season for military campaigns. So they started the year, elected the officials, raised the army, and went around plundering, raping and enslaving people (usually in that order). It's not by chance that March was, as the name suggests, dedicated to Mars, the roman god of War.

Later, as the romans expanded territorially (out of the italian peninsula and beyond), and their armies grew larger, they had to start the year earlier for logistical reasons, as they required more time to get the legions ready and in position to begin the campaigns in spring.

[Insane Trystane]

I liked the innacurate version better. I read it in the same voice I read Elan's dialogue. :)

[Lissou]

Once we find out when the Southern New Year is, you need to add about three days: a few days (panel 6) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) still two days from the entrance (panel 2) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html)

ETA: It doesn't matter when the Northern New Year is; the visit to the Oracle was made a few days after the Southern New Year, and that's the time we're counting a year from.

We're not counting a year from anything. Or, rather, we're counting from New Year. The prophecy isn't "a year from now", it is "before the end of the current year". If the prophecy had been made only a few days before the end of the year, Belkar would have had only a few days to live, not a whole year. Because the prophecy was made right at the beginning of the year, though, Belkar had (up to) about a year to live (minus however long it took them to get to the Oracle).

So no, we do not need to add about three days to the New Year. The New Year is the deadline. Belkar may die before the end of the year, but certainly not one second later than it.

[littlebum2002]

Accurate history stuff.

Sorry, I liked PeeLee's version better.

[Peelee]

I liked the innacurate version better. I read it in the same voice I read Elan's dialogue. :)


Sorry, I liked PeeLee's version better.

Remind me to send you guys desk copies when I publish the textbook.