Is Lich-dom within our grasps?

[Gruzzle]

I've regularly played the "good" character types. Since AD&D I have played clerics, druids, clerics, paladins, clerics, monks, clerics, and a warlord. The only experience with really evil characters was once dealing with a necromancer party-mate (with me as a cleric. Turn/Destroy undead made fore an effective threat to keep him in line) and I once DMed a "Way of the Wicked" campaign (fantastically good time btw).

Well, I'm making a change for this edition! I'm starting out playing an egotistic assassin (sociopath hiding within the group to avoid the backlash from his last job gone wrong) in my first campaign, and I'm certain that he will be a blast to play. However I was in the shower (all my best ideas seem to come to me here?) and I suddenly hit upon the idea of an aspiring lich. So the question I have for you, gentle-readers, is which classes COULD become liches? Could any caster pull it off, both divine and arcane? Most specifically I have been brainstorming a warlock as a my second 5e character, so could they? Likely a just book-lock? What would it take? Are there already rules in place in 5e that could allow for a PC to do this or would it have to be created/adapted by the DM?

[Wartex1]

I think it requires an Arcane caster still because of a spell required that's mentioned in the MM. Though, a Bard could become one or an Arcane caster could help a cleric with the process.

[Shaofoo]

There is no written text currently that details how to become a lich in 5e.

And considering that "evil" archetypes like the Blackguard are invisible to players unless the DM allows it I assume that if there is some fluff way to become a lich that it is forbidden for PCs to pursue it.

If you really want to become a lich, first you have to learn how to become a lich. The MM lich states that you MUST bargain with evil powers(tm) to be able to acquire the knowledge to become a lich; so it isn't chancing on some book detailing the steps down. And since you must find someone to tell you how it works you will be all but certain that they will want something in return (or heck maybe they'll just tell you a faulty version of the ritual that kills you outright). And nasty stuff ensues and all that jazz.

The MM constantly says liches are wizards so I guess only wizards can be liches?

To answer your question; you must be some kind of wizard who can only get the knowledge with a pact from an evil creature with knowledge on how to become a lich.

Note that this is pure fluff from the MM and in no way RAW as to how a lich forms, for all you know only fighters can become liches because this is 10001% DM territory. Talk to your DM before you do anything crazy. You might end up dead for good.

[Gruzzle]

Well the risk of "dead for good" sorta comes with the adventuring life anyway, so if my warlock (already familiar with bargaining with possibly evil powers) decides to stack more risk on to his plate by pursuing lich-dom, what's a bit more to the pile? All in all, sounds like I will need to purchase the MM soon to do more research on that, and I'l of course outline my warlock's end-goal with my DM when laying out my character's backstory, motivation, etc. If the spell is perhaps semi-limited to wizards, would it be possible for a tome-lock to pick it up as a ritual if i researched/found it in my wanderings? I understand all of this is ultimately DM approval, but for those DMs out there, what would you say to such a proposal for a character goal? Hell (ha!) he may never make it in his journey, but a half-elf can dream!

[Paeleus]

Book of Vile Darkness will teach ya the path to lich-dom.

[MaxWilson]

I understand all of this is ultimately DM approval, but for those DMs out there, what would you say to such a proposal for a character goal?

Speaking as a DM, if my party's necromancer told me that he wanted to become a lich... I wouldn't shoot him down. On the one hand, I try to run a sandbox where the world exists independently of the PCs, so I wouldn't go out of my way to enable his lichness just because he wanted it, but on a player-to-player level it's possible that I'd be influenced. At minimum I would certainly work out rules for lichdom and let him know that they existed, in case he ever worked it out. Also on a player-to-player level I'd advise him to seek out sages and learn Contact Other Plane, and to be generally proactive about his desires.

I don't know what lichdom formula I'd eventually come up with, but it would presumably be pretty bad news. Something on a level with Steven King's story "Survivor Type" (lady fingers!). It probably wouldn't involve stuff like "kill everyone who loves you" because the vibe I get from liches is indifference to others more than malevolence, but "cut your own heart out with a dull spoon after boiling all the flesh off your legs with hot oil and putting out your own eyes with your fingernails" might be the right direction. Turning yourself into a living corpse is not lightly undertaken.

[Silavor]

The only mechanical requirement for liches in the 5e monster manual is the ability to cast Imprisonment, which is needed to feed harvested souls to the phylactery every so often to keep it functional. Both wizards and warlocks can learn Imprisonment, so there is no issue from a mechanics/class perspective.

Like the others have said, however, the process of actually becoming a lich is entirely dependent on the DM. Speaking personally, I would be okay with one of my players trying to become a lich, but they will have to be proactive in seeking out the lost knowledge and spells required to do so. Lichdom is not something that would just fall into their lap with little effort, but I think it would make for a fascinating mid-high level adventure in between saving the multiverse from threats even more vile than a wannabe-lich.

[monkey3]

Well, True Polymorph lets you permanently turn into any creature in the MM. The creature's CR has to be equal or less than your level. A Lich is CR 21. I know the level max is 20, but if in your campaign, you could somehow get to 21, or cast as a level 21, then you could simply turn into one!

[Tenmujiin]

There is currently no RAW way to do this but I'd say it wouldn't be hard to convince a friendly DM to allow a warlock with a book of shadows to gain the knowledge from his patron (assuming not fey).

If I was DMing this I'd probably require the PC to know imprisonment (to put their soul in a phylactery) and animate dead/create undead (to make themselves undead).

[Clistenes]

A problem about 5th edition is that there is a lot of stuff that was part of the lore and could be encountered and even be accessed or done by the players, but now is outside the rules and very difficult to homebrew.

They have said that they will try to keep the number of sources low to help DMs, but the downside is that DMs have to homebrew a lot of stuff. There are many creatures that don't exist anymore, same for spells, magic items and other magical stuff. If a DM grabs an old Forgotten Realms or Eberron or Planescape sourcebook he or she will have to create almost everything from the scratch.

[Chronos]

Quoth MaxWilson:

It probably wouldn't involve stuff like "kill everyone who loves you" because the vibe I get from liches is indifference to others more than malevolence,...
Fits perfectly. They don't care about others, so if those others are more useful as ritual sacrifices than they are alive, go for it.

[Shining Wrath]

From the MM:


Liches are the remains of great wizards ...


... the process of becoming a lich is a well-guarded secret. Wizards that seek lichdom must make a bargain with [list of foul entities]. Many turn to Orcus ...


A lich is created by an arcane ritual ...

Despite the repeated references to wizards, I see no problem with any spell casting class making a deal with Orcus or equivalent. The ability to feed souls into the phylactery relies upon Imprisonment, but I would be willing to let a cleric homebrew a spell for that purpose. Of course, Orcus might think it was hilarious that the new lich was doomed to take a quick trip to demi-lich town.

A former druid who has become a lich is doubtless one messed up dude.

[Angelmaker]

There have been mentions of divine based liches in previous editions and it makes totally sense to me. The rituals needed may differ, but I as a DM would allow both arcan and divine liches.

Currently, i run a campaign in eberron. Becoming a lich in this campaign would probably require being a high caster, collecting parts of the rituals from nations such as karnath ( who employ undead regularly ), sacrifices/spell components of yet to be determined (probably involving parts of your own body as well as sentient living creatures close to you or servants of the right/ wrong gods ) and slowly feeding yourself to death on a diet of undead flesh in the mournland, while casting the rituals.

I think it would be a fun goal, however, it kind of needs a group to roll with it. It is definitely not an ego-thing to do.

So you need your GM and/or group on boarwd with this ( depends on wether your dm is willing to run a solo session(s) for you ) .

[Gruzzle]

The group on board?! Heck no!! This is one of those dark personal secrets that you keep from the other characters (and even players, if possible). That's half the fun, trying to attain it without them realizing, until it's too late. Perhaps if I can achieve this, I'll pass off the level 20 warlock/lich to my DM as the next campaign's BBEG! How cool would that be! Roll up a paladin to smite down my old character?! My god, I may call my DM to tell her I'm ditching my rogue right now. I don't think I can wait any longer to get started now!

[Naanomi]

The only mechanical requirement for liches in the 5e monster manual is the ability to cast Imprisonment, which is needed to feed harvested souls to the phylactery every so often to keep it functional. Both wizards and warlocks can learn Imprisonment, so there is no issue from a mechanics/class perspective.
Or a bard who picked it up as a bonus spell; the phantom of the opera perhaps

[treecko]

A high level cleric of Vecna might obtain lich-dom as a reward for service. I can't imagine Vecna would leave it cleric unable to collect souls, also. Not really RAW, but you could make a case for Divine Intervention.

[Clistenes]

Fits perfectly. They don't care about others, so if those others are more useful as ritual sacrifices than they are alive, go for it.

Alderac Entertainment took this route in their sourcebook Secrets. Only Devils know the rituals to turn somebody into a Lich, and you have to bargain with them to get the secret. Devils usually require that you sacrifice all of your family and friends, and as part of the contract, you can't reveal anything about the process afterwards.

The catch? The people you sacrificed are bound to you as ghosts forever, reproaching your betrayal night and day, and you can't even tell anybody about it...

[Eisenheim]

The group on board?! Heck no!! This is one of those dark personal secrets that you keep from the other characters (and even players, if possible). That's half the fun, trying to attain it without them realizing, until it's too late.

Have you done things like this before, keeping them secret not just from the other characters but also the players, and had them be fine with that? If so, more power to you, and you can ignore my advice.

Otherwise, understand that most people, myself included, count keeping this type of thing a secret from a other players to be a serious **** move, and I would kick you from a group for doing so. This is a hobby you enjoy with friends, even if your characters are enemies. Don't confuse the two, and don't screw over your group without the rest of the players being on board with the place you're taking the narrative.

[kumar]

Have you done things like this before, keeping them secret not just from the other characters but also the players, and had them be fine with that? If so, more power to you, and you can ignore my advice.

Otherwise, understand that most people, myself included, count keeping this type of thing a secret from a other players to be a serious **** move, and I would kick you from a group for doing so. This is a hobby you enjoy with friends, even if your characters are enemies. Don't confuse the two, and don't screw over your group without the rest of the players being on board with the place you're taking the narrative.

You shoudn't be so hard for him, I think he wouldnt do it again. I was doing the same in the game and im mature guy who is working with in company formation in poland http://www.trinitycs.com/en/company-incorporation-poland

[ChubbyRain]

From the MM:







Despite the repeated references to wizards, I see no problem with any spell casting class making a deal with Orcus or equivalent. The ability to feed souls into the phylactery relies upon Imprisonment, but I would be willing to let a cleric homebrew a spell for that purpose. Of course, Orcus might think it was hilarious that the new lich was doomed to take a quick trip to demi-lich town.

A former druid who has become a lich is doubtless one messed up dude.


Well there was an official 3.5 character in one of the splat books meant to be an NPC BBEG (big bad evil gal) against a party that was a Druid Necromancer.

They go into lichdom so they can remain forever, protection the natural world or whatever.

Terr were a group of elves that essentially became lichy type undead but in a good way.

So many things in 3.5 about undead/liches that didn't rely on evil that having a non-evil non-wizard should totally be OK.

Hell, the Dread Necromancer could become good and keep all their class features, they just couldn't start good.

[PotatoGolem]

Have you done things like this before, keeping them secret not just from the other characters but also the players, and had them be fine with that? If so, more power to you, and you can ignore my advice.

Otherwise, understand that most people, myself included, count keeping this type of thing a secret from a other players to be a serious **** move, and I would kick you from a group for doing so. This is a hobby you enjoy with friends, even if your characters are enemies. Don't confuse the two, and don't screw over your group without the rest of the players being on board with the place you're taking the narrative.

Definitely this. Remember that D&D is collaborative storytelling- if everyone's not having fun, it's not working. I used to play with a guy who pulled this all the time- all of his characters had some deep dark thing that meant the campaign had to be about him. It wasn't fun, so the group fell apart. The game shouldn't be just about your character, it's about the group. We actually had a player in my most recent campaign playing whose character was being super-secretive about everything, and it ended with the rest of the party questioning him at knifepoint. Some groups thrive off the whole intrigue/backstabbing, but for most it's just a jerk move.

[Gruzzle]

Have you done things like this before, keeping them secret not just from the other characters but also the players, and had them be fine with that? If so, more power to you, and you can ignore my advice.

Otherwise, understand that most people, myself included, count keeping this type of thing a secret from a other players to be a serious **** move, and I would kick you from a group for doing so. This is a hobby you enjoy with friends, even if your characters are enemies. Don't confuse the two, and don't screw over your group without the rest of the players being on board with the place you're taking the narrative.


Definitely this. Remember that D&D is collaborative storytelling- if everyone's not having fun, it's not working. I used to play with a guy who pulled this all the time- all of his characters had some deep dark thing that meant the campaign had to be about him. It wasn't fun, so the group fell apart. The game shouldn't be just about your character, it's about the group. We actually had a player in my most recent campaign playing whose character was being super-secretive about everything, and it ended with the rest of the party questioning him at knifepoint. Some groups thrive off the whole intrigue/backstabbing, but for most it's just a jerk move.

Wow. Certainly, this is not a view point I've ever considered, but then again my group also plays things like V:tM so we enjoy being legitimately surprised when another character has a big reveal. Having to be in on it ruins the story. The point of this is to help with immersion, avoid meta-gaming, and have truly surprising twists in our stories that are memorable. We have all been friends for 15+ years now and easily recognize the difference between games and real life. We don't lie or keep secrets among our circle outside of RP, and it's likely our long term friendship and familiarity which allows for this kind of game-play. Truly, I had never considered the point of view you guys bring up here. Thank you for pointing it out, and hopefully if I ever find myself gaming with a new group who I'm unfamiliar with I can avoid such an unintentional affront.

[CNagy]

Definitely this. Remember that D&D is collaborative storytelling- if everyone's not having fun, it's not working. I used to play with a guy who pulled this all the time- all of his characters had some deep dark thing that meant the campaign had to be about him. It wasn't fun, so the group fell apart. The game shouldn't be just about your character, it's about the group. We actually had a player in my most recent campaign playing whose character was being super-secretive about everything, and it ended with the rest of the party questioning him at knifepoint. Some groups thrive off the whole intrigue/backstabbing, but for most it's just a jerk move.

How does that happen without a DM that basically lets it happen? I think the jerk move is demanding characters not have hidden, personal agendas--much less kicking a player out for one. Quests dealing with your backstory or ambition are a great part of any campaign broad enough in scope.

When I DM, I treat my campaigns as if they were like old Black Isle games; players make a few PCs each, and the inactive ones are off doing various things in the background. If you want to pursue some personal ambition, I work with that and the costs will, at most, inconvenience the rest of the party at a key moment. If you have to make a deal with a devil, it's not going to demand anything that would turn the party against the character immediately (like, say, telling him to sacrifice them). It's an near-ageless evil intelligence looking to add another pawn to the board--it plays the long game. If you succeed in becoming a lich (or Death Knight, as I had one player wish to become,) your character becomes an npc and part of the lore. You choose which of your alternates is next to join the party, and play continues with yet another arch villain added to the party's to-do list.

Hell, in the case of the Death Knight, the rest of the party felt responsible because the player sought it but no one else knew, the character itself suffered terribly, committed an act of terrible blasphemy in his rage, and fell in battle. They didn't even hear rumors of a Death Knight until later and when they found out who it was, well... that was a good game moment.

Not all departures have to be that dramatic, of course. Sometimes you save a village and the Ranger decides he is going to part ways with the rest of you to watch over the people as they rebuild. Sometimes the Cleric feels a calling inhabit an old, forgotten church. They become npcs, their players rejoin when next convenient as someone else they've made. Old characters will occasionally get in touch with the party, requesting aid or even providing it. Sometimes characters rejoin, even.

In the end, it's about treating characters as if they are actual people with individual lives, wants, and needs. The party is not simply the four limbs of the singular creature that is the Company of <insert name>, pledged to kill/discover/recover/prevent the <thing>. When you play a party like that, then sure, secrets are like a parasite that can kill the host.

[Gruzzle]

Well said CNagy, I agree!

[Slipperychicken]

I'd prefer adding elements from the old-school lichdom process, with highlights including having to find some specific book detailing the process, having to kill a celestial for its blood, murdering at least one humanoid baby with your own hands, and also drinking a poisoned potion which kills the lich-to-be with 100% certainty. And then if you do everything right, you have to make what amounts to a con save to rise again as a lich; failure means staying dead. And rising as a lich invariably turns the character into an evil monster under the DM's control. That way you know for sure that only the hardest, most evil, and most determined wizards could ever hope to complete such a process.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd prefer adding elements from the old-school lichdom process, with highlights including having to find some specific book detailing the process, having to kill a celestial for its blood, murdering at least one humanoid baby with your own hands, and also drinking a poisoned potion which kills the lich-to-be with 100% certainty. And then if you do everything right, you have to make what amounts to a con save to rise again as a lich; failure means staying dead. And rising as a lich invariably turns the character into an evil monster under the DM's control. That way you know for sure that only the hardest, most evil, and most determined wizards could ever hope to complete such a process.
Actually, there's an app for that now. :smallbiggrin:

(*Steve Jobs, on the other hand, is still dead ... as far as we know).

[Shining Wrath]

I'd prefer adding elements from the old-school lichdom process, with highlights including having to find some specific book detailing the process, having to kill a celestial for its blood, murdering at least one humanoid baby with your own hands, and also drinking a poisoned potion which kills the lich-to-be with 100% certainty. And then if you do everything right, you have to make what amounts to a con save to rise again as a lich; failure means staying dead. And rising as a lich invariably turns the character into an evil monster under the DM's control. That way you know for sure that only the hardest, most evil, and most determined wizards could ever hope to complete such a process.

I've always preferred the fluff that the ritual for each lich is different, because each wizard is different.

Specifically, even the most rotten evil people you can imagine usually have a redeeming feature. For example, "Joe's a rotten evil person, but he likes his cat". Guess what Joe's ritual will involve? Killing cats. And kittens. So very many cats and kittens, in so very many different ways. Culminating, of course, in Joe killing his cat, the one he is fond of. Joe must destroy the part of his soul that is capable of redemption, of feeling remorse for what he will do in his future unlife, of caring for another creature. Only then can he become a lich.

[1Forge]

I'd say you'd have to be an arcane caster gone undead. First you'd have to do some sort of fancy ritual, then you'd have to get a phylactery, then you'd use the DMG rules for character levels on monsters and add levels to an undead monster. You'd keep all your spells, and skills (exept cha probobly), and gain any monsters weaknesses & strengthes.

[1Forge]

I've always preferred the fluff that the ritual for each lich is different, because each wizard is different.

Specifically, even the most rotten evil people you can imagine usually have a redeeming feature. For example, "Joe's a rotten evil person, but he likes his cat". Guess what Joe's ritual will involve? Killing cats. And kittens. So very many cats and kittens, in so very many different ways. Culminating, of course, in Joe killing his cat, the one he is fond of. Joe must destroy the part of his soul that is capable of redemption, of feeling remorse for what he will do in his future unlife, of caring for another creature. Only then can he become a lich.

this makes sense, I once saw a movie where this guy had a magic sword but couldnt do it till he became totally evil. He then had to kill tons of people and in the end his sister he loved to unlock it's power.

[Shining Wrath]

this makes sense, I once saw a movie where this guy had a magic sword but couldnt do it till he became totally evil. He then had to kill tons of people and in the end his sister he loved to unlock it's power.

Sounds like whoever wrote that script had read Elric of Melniborne.

[1Forge]

Sounds like whoever wrote that script had read Elric of Melniborne.

It's kinda similar, but he had to kill alot before he could use the sword.