Spoilers from PaizoCon

[Milo v3]

With PaizoCon started, announcement of new books has begun.

From two twitter feeds I've been reading the following has been spoiled, but because getting information from tweets can be vague this might not be 100% correct.

An AP for evil characters called Hell's Vengeance.

Ultimate Intrigue will be a hardcover in the vein of Ultimate Combat/Magic, but focusing on skillful characters. It will contain social combat rules, verbal dueling, and a new class the Vigilante.

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Bestiary 5 is announced, it will have aliens and psychic monsters.

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A skill or something in occult called Phrenology.

A 9th level mindswapping spell... that is permanent.

Occultist has archetypes called Battlehost and Tome Eater.

Ghost Rider archetype for cavaliers.

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[BWR]

Color me interested. Ultimate Intrigue with social combat and more skill stuff in particular. Bestiary 5...For all of 3.x I was not particularly impressed by the monster books. There were some cool things in there but most of the time they were boring or had a real bottom of the barrel feel. Then along comes PF and pumps out 4 Bestiaries and I find myself liking all of them so I find myself actually a bit excited for number 5.

[Milo v3]

WotC didn't help by making their monster mannuals lack any new material and completely changing the formatting the end... We wanted new monsters, not just drow, orcs and lizardfolk :smallannoyed:

[BWR]

WotC didn't help by making their monster mannuals lack any new material and completely changing the formatting the end... We wanted new monsters, not just drow, orcs and lizardfolk :smallannoyed:

Really? I didn't buy anything after MMII or FF (whichever of those came last) but I read through MM III and IV when some friends bought them, but I didn't see that. I did see a whole bunch of stuff that left absolutely no impression on me because I cannot remember anything about those two books. Except one really big giant with a ludicrously high CR for something that could be taken down by a 5th level party. Anyway, I may have missed it. Were later MMs really full of variants of existing monsters? Little new?

Not that the Bestiaries aren't full of oldies, like the flailsnail and flumph (for some reason I just love those two). If B5 was nothing but updates of old BECMI monsters I would be very happy. Druj and revenants and death leeches and hivebrood and mashers and aranea and pegataurs and drolems and sollux and faedorne and silver warriors and amber golems and ...
*drool*

[Psyren]

Ooh, so now we're getting our own Complete Scoundrel. More Skill Unlocks?

Happy at new Hunter options because they need some serious love.

Hopefully they have an update on the Obsidian partnership too, it's been quiet on that front.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I've always liked the Pathfinder Iconics. I've known about Hell's Vengeance (though I thought it was named Hell's Rebels.. which sounds so much cooler) Interesting to see another base class. Looks like its going to fit in a similar niche to the Magus, which was the only class to be introduced wholesale in Ultimate Magic. Color me interested; I don't think the Vigilante is going to be entirely built around skills, as the U!Rogue was built around that, just like the Magus is not built entirely around magic. Do we have a basic role for the class? It will definitely be skill-based on some level, given the book. Might be looking at a more combat-focused investigator type class. Doesn't sound like it gets spells/extracts, at least. If the Investigator is Sherlock Holmes, the Vigilante might be early Batman.

[Seerow]

I'm surprised that Druids are being lumped in with the "skill" classes. Like I would never think "Bard, Rogue, Investigator...Druid". It's just not a class I associate with that category.

But the Ultimate Intrigue does intrigue me. I have no hope at all for the social combat system to be any good, but there's a small chance that just means I am pleasantly surprised. With most of the book's focus seeming to be on communication, it seems like getting this part right would be critical, since the description of feat options make me think they want to make a pure politics/non-combat urban campaign possible.... if the social combat doesn't work well, I expect a lot of options to be rendered useless.

An interesting note is this book could be a lead-in to their next AP being a politically focused one, which could be interesting.

I am curious what they mean by a new influence system. Is it like personal influence (ie fixed diplomacy rules), or influence with groups (a la reputations in most games. I think there was already something like this in Ultimate Campaign though).


Oh and the new bestiary having mythic content in it surprises me. I thought they were abandoning mythic entirely.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Oh gods I hope not. I love mythic.

[Milo v3]

Paizo Blog about new Announcements (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog)


I've always liked the Pathfinder Iconics. I've known about Hell's Vengeance (though I thought it was named Hell's Rebels.. which sounds so much cooler)
Hell's Rebels is the current AP. Hell's Vengeance is the next AP. Both involve a rebellion in cheliax if I recall, but in different locations... also in one your good and one your evil.

[Beowulf DW]

Hell's Rebels is the current AP. Hell's Vengeance is the next AP. Both involve a rebellion in cheliax if I recall, but in different locations... also in one your good and one your evil.

"Good" and "Evil" are such...fluid terms.

[Psyren]

I thought they were abandoning mythic entirely.

I didn't hear anything like this. Unchained even mentions Mythic (though mostly to say it should be approached carefully.)


Paizo Blog about new Announcements (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog)

Your link was just to the blog as a whole, here is the direct link. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhhh?PaizoCon-Product-Announcements-and-Sneak-Peeks)

[Milo v3]

Your link was just to the blog as a whole, here is the direct link. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhhh?PaizoCon-Product-Announcements-and-Sneak-Peeks)

Ugh... I really need to remember to not try to get links after hitting show post. *Facepalm*

[Psyren]

Did someone ask whether they planned on expanding/building on the Unchained content? Because the answer appears to be yes. (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9e8g?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Weapon-Masters-Handbook)

[Milo v3]

Did someone ask whether they planned on expanding/building on the Unchained content? Because the answer appears to be yes. (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9e8g?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Weapon-Masters-Handbook)

The player companions really needed that, combat feats become much less attractive now if they lack a combat trick and there's no chance of RPG line making them for Player Companion Line. Now we just have to see if the RPG line's new combat feats will continue having stamina available.

[atemu1234]

I'm excited! Even though I play 3.5, I'm bound to use the new bestiary with some conversions!

I'msoexcitedI'mgonnadie!!!

[Milo v3]

Hmm... I wish the dream dragon didn't have wings, then I could use it as Falcor perfectly.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Oh, that's interesting. Hell's Rebels as the good AP, and Hell's Vengeance as the evil one. Didn't really occur to me until that was pointed out.

[Milo v3]

From people who were at the con:

Vigilante would have a 3/4 BAB base, 6 + Int skill ranks/level. You have a social persona (ie. Bruce Wayne) who, with time and effort, can turn into their vigilante persona (ie. Batman) with a different alignment one step from their social persona's alignment. (Higher-level abilities allow you to flip personas faster, ie. Superman's phone booth, but with a potential disadvantage for rushing the switch.)

The social persona gains social benefits in places where they spend more time (a level of improved attitude was mentioned); at the same time, you're spreading rumors about the vigilante persona that make it more fearsome to the same neighborhood. Think Peter Parker selling photos of Spider-man, or Clark Kent writing about Superman. The scope of this effect increases with level, so you might be famous in Hell's Kitchen at low levels and across an entire city district or city at high levels. Might be class abilities that let you move this effect around temporarily.

Class abilities can help convert or spoof skills in the personas to avoid forcing you to spread skill ranks around too much. You shouldn't have to split ranks in Bluff to maintain your social personal with ranks in Acrobatics to run around rooftops.

The personas are mechanically different people. Bruce Wayne ceases to exist when he's Batman, even to scrying and such effects. The exception is if you already know or can somehow detect the connection between the personas. There were discussions but nothing final about abilities to defend against this, like being able to clone your social persona while going vigilante or getting a +20 to Bluff or Disguise checks against attempts to expose the connection. The class is designed on the assumption that your adventuring party knows your secret identity, but that's not required (which should make for some interesting RP).

The four specializations differentiate and flavor the vigilante different ways. You could go all Captain Andoran or Aldori Zorro as a costumed fighting vigilante, or Wiscrani Batman as a rogue-like vigilante, or a secret inquisitor-ish divine vigilante, or a secret mystic arcane vigilante. They didn't rule out psychic vigilantes, it's just too early in the process since OA isn't officially out. And yes, this is theoretically the magical girl/sentai class.

Vigilantes aren't limited to Good alignments—all of those could be Evil (upstanding citizen in public, brutal enforcer or thief or serial killer in private). At the same time, this isn't limited to the superhero/supervillain class. You could pull a Henry Jones/Indiana Jones duality, or expand how you model werecreatures, perhaps archetypes for several competing personalities.

Lots of jokes that the iconic vigilante will be one of the existing iconics in a costume, but that obviously won't be the case, right? *wink*



The scope of this effect increases with level, so you might be famous in Hell's Kitchen at low levels and across an entire city district or city at high levels. Might be class abilities that let you move this effect around temporarily.
That gives me pause for concern that the scope on this class is going to be too small. First level being a district is fine- but by the high end of this you should be known to the world or the multiverse. That'd be like if Superman was only known in Metropolis.

That came up in the workshop, and to stress we were working on a pretty early build with a focus on brainstorming the specializations. There were good ideas tossed around, like being able to activate that ability in other places temporarily with the implication that your legend might be known elsewhere, but the fear associated with that ability isn't as immediate in other places until people there know you're around. Everybody in New York knows who Jack the Ripper is, but they're not afraid of him... until someone shows up vivisected in the streets of Manhattan.

Even all those proverbial Wiscrani villains fearing that Batfiend nutjob skulking around the shadows don't worry much about the all-powerful 20th-level mythic divine vigilante of Sarenrae flying around Absalom, until the local criers report a story by the famously bespectacled chronicler Clarek el-Kent announcing that the Superhuman was last seen on his way to town.




Bestiary 5 will be about 15% psychic monsters. You'll also see some whole new outsider races, like a new Neutral Evil race of fallen psychopomps who are tired of shepherding souls to the Boneyard. Traditional stuff like thought eaters will get the Golarion treatment. Proper conspiracy-theory aliens (grays, annunaki as alien astronauts), maybe some feathered dinosaurs, dream dragons. Not much empyreal/demon lords. Hindu-inspired manasaputra celestials. Some new 0 HD races, including a sasquatch and a new dark folk type. Corresponding pawn box is likely but not announced yet.

Ultimate Intrigue is to social classes what Ultimate Magic was to casters and Ultimate Combat to martials. Social combat rules build on the Pathfinder Cards product. Heist rules to run party-splitting stealth-and-theft missions—someone breaks in, someone distracts a guard, someone cracks the safe, etc. Influence rules for things like reputations. Expanded long-distance chase mechanics. Verbal dueling, which sounds less like RP-replacement and more like modeling how an audience reacts to your sick burns and affects the effectiveness of the target's responses. New gear, new spells, new feats for social situations. More ways to spy on people and on things, but at the same time new tools to prevent those things from happening. We get frustrated as GMs when PCs cast scrying or clairvoyance. New low-level spells can block or screw with that.


Inner Sea Races is following the Inner Sea Gods model of giving lots of background and collating and expanding on a lot of content scattered across previous releases. Lots of ethnicities as well, including what it means to be Varisian, Garundi, etc., which can potentially extend to non-humans of those ethnicities. New racial weapons, feats, and a big heritage appendix that lets you go through it and pick races, bonuses. There's a new range of feats that allow your races to play off each other, so an all-elf party might get a specific benefit, or a party of all different races, etc. Hobgoblins are covered.

Weapon Master's Handbook delves into making yourself a master of martial combat. How to pick up a sword and become the greatest ever; the master fighter. Includes a system to modify and create your own weapons. Anything out there in a game you've seen, now you can play with it.

[Palanan]

Have to say I'm really looking forward to Ultimate Intrigue. Alas that it's a year away.

:smallsigh:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'm a sucker for outsider races, and fallen psychopomps sounds interesting. Also the vigilante class sounds intriguing. Hope they release a playtest for Ultimate Intrigue like they did for Ultimate Magic/Combat.

[Psyren]

Weapon Master Handbook sounds like it's overpromising, but as long as it has more combat tricks I'll be happy. (Hopefully they remember Kraken Style this time, and come up with ways to get more of the existing monk archetypes onto the unchained monk.)

[PsyBomb]

Weapon Master Handbook sounds like it's overpromising, but as long as it has more combat tricks I'll be happy. (Hopefully they remember Kraken Style this time, and come up with ways to get more of the existing monk archetypes onto the unchained monk.)

Given the existence of Path of War, the WMH (anyone else pronouncing that mentally as the "wham"?) will have to do a LOT to impress me. Now, I'm not asking for a Bellator, but if we get a hardcover PF Sword and Fist I'm going to be irked.

[Milo v3]

Given the existence of Path of War, the WMH (anyone else pronouncing that mentally as the "wham"?) will have to do a LOT to impress me. Now, I'm not asking for a Bellator, but if we get a hardcover PF Sword and Fist I'm going to be irked.

Well, it's going to be a softcover... but still.

[Psyren]

Given the existence of Path of War, the WMH (anyone else pronouncing that mentally as the "wham"?) will have to do a LOT to impress me. Now, I'm not asking for a Bellator, but if we get a hardcover PF Sword and Fist I'm going to be irked.

If you're comparing it to PoW, you may as well prepare to be disappointed now, because I highly doubt we'll get a full-fledged maneuver system in any Paizo product, let alone a softcover Companion supplement.

But if you're instead approaching it as "I'm okay with the melee system overall, I just want a few extra toys" that will probably be in the cards.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Oh and the new bestiary having mythic content in it surprises me. I thought they were abandoning mythic entirely.

I'm pretty sure Jacobs or Bulmahn mentioned not liking Mythic for PCs after the fact, but it being good for enemies. As such, I'm not surprised monsters are getting the support.

[Milo v3]

The kineticist iconic turns out to not be a halfling or gnome, but a kid... Not sure how I feel about that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Given the origins and inspiration of the class, I'd say the Kineticist is the most fitting class to have a kid Iconic. Do we know which element? I'm guessing fire.

[Milo v3]

Given the origins and inspiration of the class, I'd say the Kineticist is the most fitting class to have a kid Iconic. Do we know which element? I'm guessing fire.

The kineticist iconic is fire, the art of the character can be seen in the OP.

[Extra Anchovies]

Vigilante would have a 3/4 BAB base, 6 + Int skill ranks/level.

Oh joy. I (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard) haven't (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) seen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter) that (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator) before (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/skald). Granted, it's a chassis that works, but Paizo really really likes that setup. I'm betting on a d8 hit die, too.

Pretty excited for the actual release of Occult Adventures, though. I have perhaps a bit too much hype for the full set of Medium spirits now that I've finally wrapped my head around how the dual/triune/fourfold vessel system from the playtest worked. They've probably changed it to something simpler but I kinda like how complicated it is.

[Milo v3]

Oh joy. I (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard) haven't (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) seen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter) that (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator) before (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/skald). Granted, it's a chassis that works, but Paizo really really likes that setup. I'm betting on a d8 hit die, too.

Pretty excited for the actual release of Occult Adventures, though. I have perhaps a bit too much hype for the full set of Medium spirits now that I've finally wrapped my head around how the dual/triune/fourfold vessel system from the playtest worked. They've probably changed it to something simpler but I kinda like how complicated it is.

Well, it has to have d8, it's 3/4 BAB. As for medium, I actually plan to purchase a harrow deck just for the gimmick of playing a medium and going all Persona wild-card on it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Oh joy. I (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard) haven't (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) seen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/hunter) that (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator) before (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/skald). Granted, it's a chassis that works, but Paizo really really likes that setup. I'm betting on a d8 hit die, too.

Pretty excited for the actual release of Occult Adventures, though. I have perhaps a bit too much hype for the full set of Medium spirits now that I've finally wrapped my head around how the dual/triune/fourfold vessel system from the playtest worked. They've probably changed it to something simpler but I kinda like how complicated it is.

Paizo officially linked hit dice to BAB so...yes, it's certified to have D8 hit die. And yes, that's pointlessly arbitrary.

[Ilorin Lorati]

My bet is that they were trying to simplify things, but didn't realize that HD size and BAB are reprinted with every class anyways, or that it needlessly cut off perfectly valid class concepts. I wonder how many concepts they've thrown out that would have demanded a non-standard combination...

[PsyBomb]

My bet is that they were trying to simplify things, but didn't realize that HD size and BAB are reprinted with every class anyways, or that it needlessly cut off perfectly valid class concepts. I wonder how many concepts they've thrown out that would have demanded a non-standard combination...

That policy and those similar to it resulted in the Summoner. Reason enough to dump them, personally, but I'm not the boss.

[Extra Anchovies]

That policy and those similar to it resulted in the Summoner. Reason enough to dump them, personally, but I'm not the boss.

Hm. Are you suggesting that the Summoner should have poor BAB and maybe a d6 HD? Because I'd agree with you there, at least regarding APG summoner.

[PsyBomb]

Hm. Are you suggesting that the Summoner should have poor BAB and maybe a d6 HD? Because I'd agree with you there, at least regarding APG summoner.

Don't care about the BAB, but a d6 HD and 9-level spellcasting progression instead of the bastardized 6th. UnSummoner tried to fix it, and got MOST of the way there.

[squiggit]

I remember being told that the main reason the unchained monk had a d10 was so that it could be full BAB

Which was kind of hilarious given the whole premise of unchained.

[Extra Anchovies]

I remember being told that the main reason the unchained monk had a d10 was so that it could be full BAB

Which was kind of hilarious given the whole premise of unchained.

It needed the d10 anyways, though, so at least there's that.

Also uMonk is pretty sweet in general, I like what they did with it.

[squiggit]

Hm. Are you suggesting that the Summoner should have poor BAB and maybe a d6 HD? Because I'd agree with you there, at least regarding APG summoner.

Why do you want it to have poor BAB? That only really hurts gish summoner and synthesis, two of the worst ways to play a summoner but does nothing for traditional summonery or the master summoner.

[PsyBomb]

Why do you want it to have poor BAB? That only really hurts gish summoner and synthesis, two of the worst ways to play a summoner but does nothing for traditional summonery or the master summoner.

Master Summoner was an abomination that should never have been written,

[Extra Anchovies]

Master Summoner was an abomination that should never have been written,

Agreed. That archetype takes the strongest thing about the class and makes it stronger; Master Summoner is to Summoner as 3.5 Focused Specialist was to 3.5 Wizard.

Also, Summoner is still really screwed up. Unchained tried to fix it but went about everything completely wrong :smallannoyed:

[PsyBomb]

Agreed. That archetype takes the strongest thing about the class and makes it stronger; Master Summoner is to Summoner as 3.5 Focused Specialist was to 3.5 Wizard.

Also, Summoner is still really screwed up. Unchained tried to fix it but went about everything completely wrong :smallannoyed:

I'm working on hombrewing a proper Summoner, but that's a toughie. Run Aberrant Aegis for now if you want to really "play the monster" :smallbiggrin:

[Milo v3]

I'm working on hombrewing a proper Summoner, but that's a toughie. Run Aberrant Aegis for now if you want to really "play the monster" :smallbiggrin:

Doesn't aberrant aegis have the issue of basically no natural weapons though?

[Extra Anchovies]

Doesn't aberrant aegis have the issue of basically no natural weapons though?

This, this, this. They can get tentacles but... that's it. Nothing else. That archetype needs more love. It irks me greatly that there's no real custom-natural-weapons-pile class with always-on abilities, á la Totemist, at least not that I know of.

[PsyBomb]

This, this, this. They can get tentacles but... that's it. Nothing else. That archetype needs more love. It irks me greatly that there's no real custom-natural-weapons-pile class with always-on abilities, á la Totemist, at least not that I know of.

Third Akashic class (Daevic) has it as one of the subspecs (Wrath, specifically Vengeance). I've gotten it to a 10-attack routine with pounce (can chain into 20 attacks from a standing full attack if I'm REALLY trying to do 1500 DPR, but I wouldn't do that to most DMs).

[Milo v3]

This, this, this. They can get tentacles but... that's it. Nothing else. That archetype needs more love. It irks me greatly that there's no real custom-natural-weapons-pile class with always-on abilities, á la Totemist, at least not that I know of.

I think the daevic can get claws, talons, gore, and tail slap. Plus I just made/rushed a "you're an eidolon" class, as a monk/summoner hybrid class.

[Milo v3]

I have perhaps a bit too much hype for the full set of Medium spirits now that I've finally wrapped my head around how the dual/triune/fourfold vessel system from the playtest worked. They've probably changed it to something simpler but I kinda like how complicated it is.

Just saw this from Mark Seifer, when someone was talking about having to rebuild their Medium when the book comes out:

Yeah, you will get a full rebuild for sure, to the new 6 spirit paradigm. While the new version doesn't have the same crazy and super-neat spirit combo potential of the old, it strongly delivers on the ability to fill in whatever party role you need in a given day, which I think is going to be outstanding for near-random PFS party compositions. "Oh, you're missing an arcane caster, huh? Alright, I head over to the Irespan and call upon the legends of ancient Thassilon; fallen wizards of Bakrakhan, grant me the power of the archmage!"

[PsyBomb]

I think the daevic can get claws, talons, gore, and tail slap. Plus I just made/rushed a "you're an eidolon" class, as a monk/summoner hybrid class.

2 claws, 2 talons, 2 tentacles, tail slap, and gore by class
Add upwards of a slam and a bite via race, feat, or other sources for 10 natural weapons.
Armbands of the Irked Elephant for a free smack off a Bull Rush, and Wrath gets a pounce on any successful bull rush or overrun.

[Extra Anchovies]

@PsyBomb, Milo: Thanks for the tips. I'll look into the Daevic.


Yeah, you will get a full rebuild for sure, to the new 6 spirit paradigm. While the new version doesn't have the same crazy and super-neat spirit combo potential of the old, it strongly delivers on the ability to fill in whatever party role you need in a given day, which I think is going to be outstanding for near-random PFS party compositions. "Oh, you're missing an arcane caster, huh? Alright, I head over to the Irespan and call upon the legends of ancient Thassilon; fallen wizards of Bakrakhan, grant me the power of the archmage!"

Hm. I definitely liked the weird, crazy combos, but they did get pretty awful sometimes, especially when a spirit of one ability score sometimes but didn't always count as a different ability score (e.g. Rabbit Prince counting as Strength when you use its Weapon Finesse). Still hyped for the rework.

Also, kineticist. I really, really want that class to work, but I'm pretty concerned that it's not going to.

[Milo v3]

Wow... Severe change for the medium:

The OA medium class will have 6 spirits, but then we can put out another class with all the 54 (which I've already written).

I'm suddenly a lot less interested in the class.

[Extra Anchovies]

Wow... Severe change for the medium:


I'm suddenly a lot less interested in the class.

wat

wat

Okay, so full rework. If each spirit doesn't have somewhat-customizable abilities, I'm probably not going to be very interested in it. Of course, they could produce something completely awesome, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I want my Binder update! I know there's the third-party Pact Magic Unbound series, but I looked through volume 1 recently and was thoroughly disappointed by the selection of sprits and their abilities.

[Milo v3]

wat

wat

Okay, so full rework. If each spirit doesn't have somewhat-customizable abilities, I'm probably not going to be very interested in it. Of course, they could produce something completely awesome, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I want my Binder update! I know there's the third-party Pact Magic Unbound series, but I looked through volume 1 recently and was thoroughly disappointed by the selection of sprits and their abilities.

Apparently this is because Jason allocated only 60% of the amount of pages the ACG used for it's classes for the occult adventure's class chapter, so they needed to cut the spirits number down.... which is really stupid in my opinion since ACG didn't have two classes that added in whole subsystems :smallmad:

[Deadkitten]

Wow... Severe change for the medium:


I'm suddenly a lot less interested in the class.

So wait...they will only have 6 spirits to choose from, or they can only select 6?

[Milo v3]

So wait...they will only have 6 spirits to choose from, or they can only select 6?

6 to pick from, each one assigned to one of the Mythic Hero types.

[Seerow]

So wait...they will only have 6 spirits to choose from, or they can only select 6?

If it's a page count issue, it sounds like they only have 6 to choose from.

[Deadkitten]

if it's a page count issue, it sounds like they only have 6 to choose from.

nooooo... T-T

[grarrrg]

Paizo officially linked hit dice to BAB so...yes, it's certified to have D8 hit die.

I would like to point out that there are upwards of a dozen PrC's that do NOT follow the "Bab>HD" rule.
No base classes break ranks, I'll give you that.

(quick sampling, not a complete list)
Dragon Disciple, 3/4 12HD
Agent of the Grave, 1/2 8HD
Champion of Irori, Full 8HD
Rage Prophet, 3/4 10HD

[Lord_Gareth]

I would like to point out that there are upwards of a dozen PrC's that do NOT follow the "Bab>HD" rule.
No base classes break ranks, I'll give you that.

(quick sampling, not a complete list)
Dragon Disciple, 3/4 12HD
Agent of the Grave, 1/2 8HD
Champion of Irori, Full 8HD
Rage Prophet, 3/4 8HD

Man I wish my playtesters had been this attentive. Could've avoided a fight about Sussurratore ~_^.

[Milo v3]

I asked Mark about whether the spirits will have options to mitigate the severe reduction of spirits:

Yup, big time. You could, for instance, go trickster three days in a row, with different legendary tricksters as your inspiration (maybe a legendary cat burglar, a legendary con artist, and a legendary trapsmith) and become awesome at completely different skills!

[Psyren]

I would like to point out that there are upwards of a dozen PrC's that do NOT follow the "Bab>HD" rule.
No base classes break ranks, I'll give you that.

(quick sampling, not a complete list)
Dragon Disciple, 3/4 12HD
Agent of the Grave, 1/2 8HD
Champion of Irori, Full 8HD
Rage Prophet, 3/4 10HD

PrCs do their own thing with save progressions too. This rule of thumb was never meant for them, even if some of them follow it.

[grarrrg]

PrCs do their own thing with save progressions too.

Yeah, "first level counts double", to both counter act "good save dipping", and "horrible save from Multiclassing & 1/3 progressions".
It makes a bit of sense.

As for what saves have to do with Bab or HD....?

[Molosse]

Weapon Master looks damn interesting, would be nice to see this new book and the Combat Stamina system finally letting Fighters inhibit their own little niche as opposed to being crammed in, a surpassed by in many cases, with every other Martial.

Also currently planning a campaign based, at least partly, with Dark Folk so the Bestiary 5 throwing out a D.Folk PC chassis is going to be all sorts of interesting.

@Milo v3. Did they mention what sort of type the thing would be? Would it be an extension from one of the existing types or a completely new chassis?

[Psyren]

As for what saves have to do with Bab or HD....?

They demonstrate that PrCs have separate rules from the base classes - so pointing to individual PrCs as examples that break away from the BaB/HD rule is a meaningless exercise.


Weapon Master looks damn interesting, would be nice to see this new book and the Combat Stamina system finally letting Fighters inhibit their own little niche as opposed to being crammed in, a surpassed by in many cases, with every other Martial.

Between all the stamina goodies and variant multiclassing (which Fighters barely notice), I'd say they are in a fairly good spot, at least relative to the other martials. Since Unchained there are a lot of cool things you can do with a fighter.

[Milo v3]

Did they mention what sort of type the thing would be? Would it be an extension from one of the existing types or a completely new chassis?

Which thing in particular?

[Milo v3]

In Hell's Vengeance your playing as agents of House Thrune... and apparently starts with the party being sent to kill a dog. :smallconfused:

Edit: Kineticist gets extra skill points. Iconic Mesmerist is the evil brother of the bard iconic.

[ArcanistSupreme]

In Hell's Vengeance your playing as agents of House Thrune... and apparently starts with the party being sent to kill a dog. :smallconfused:

Edit: Kineticist gets extra skill points. Iconic Mesmerist is the evil brother of the bard iconic.

Too be fair, nothing says Evil quite like kicking puppies.

[Extra Anchovies]

Iconic Mesmerist is the evil brother of the bard iconic.

And he's the one wrapped in all those bandage things, right? I'm annoyed that the iconic Mesmerist doesn't look like this guy:

http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/MagiciansStageCabaret.jpg

Seriously, if/when I play a mesmerist, they'll act like an old-school show magician. It'll be great.

[Milo v3]

And he's the one wrapped in all those bandage things, right? I'm annoyed that the iconic Mesmerist doesn't look like this guy:

http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/MagiciansStageCabaret.jpg

Seriously, if/when I play a mesmerist, they'll act like an old-school show magician. It'll be great.

Yeah, it's the bandaged one. Though, mine will probably look like this:
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140330084835/villains/images/1/12/3400292-lelouch-1-.png

[Ilorin Lorati]

Really? Mine is going to be a little bit more predictable:

http://i.imgur.com/Wz3M2iz.png

[NamelessNPC]

As others have said, I too feel dissapointed there are now only 6 spirits to choose from. The lesson here is that when a loud crowd complains about something and you disagree with them, you should make your voice heard.

[Milo v3]

As others have said, I too feel dissapointed there are now only 6 spirits to choose from. The lesson here is that when a loud crowd complains about something and you disagree with them, you should make your voice heard.

I'm unsure what you mean by this.

[Ilorin Lorati]

It sounds like he's upset that they removed the "One for every alignment / attribute" design they were going with in favor of a more streamlined approach.

[NamelessNPC]

Yeah, exactly. When everyone complained about having a lot of spirits (over the paizo forum) I kept quiet because I liked it. Now they've changed it and we are stuck with it. And complaining now will only accomplish reinforcing the cliché that us nerds are imposible to please. ow well

[Milo v3]

Ah. Then the reason I didn't understand is because this wasn't caused by people complaining about the number of spirits. It's caused by page count. Mark was actually rather disappointed since he had written up all 54 spirits and playtested them ... and then was told he had to remove them and that the Harrow Medium will have to be released in some other book, while the Mythic Medium will have to be made for OA.

[Milo v3]

Occult Adventures art (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhj1?Of-the-Occult-and-Psychic-Obscura).

I'm pretty sure I've read that the owlbear push is owned by the iconic kineticist.

Names of the images:
Dream Voyage
Amiri [According to mark the actual art order for this was "The original (and more occult) art order was for a dream image of the frost giant that Amiri slew to get her sword, attacking her with its own remembered version of the same sword she is currently using. That's not what we got..."]
Psychic Magic
Ventriloquist Dummy
Owlbear
Psychic Manuscript
Mesmerist's Fez
Object Reading Spell
Rampaging Golem
Phantom
Spirit

.... I just noticed it looks like ones of the Duergar has both boob plate and facial hair.

[Extra Anchovies]

Occult Adventures art (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhj1?Of-the-Occult-and-Psychic-Obscura).

I'm pretty sure I've read that the owlbear push is owned by the iconic kineticist.

Names of the images:
Dream Voyage
Amiri [According to mark the actual art order for this was "The original (and more occult) art order was for a dream image of the frost giant that Amiri slew to get her sword, attacking her with its own remembered version of the same sword she is currently using. That's not what we got..."]
Psychic Magic
Ventriloquist Dummy
Owlbear
Psychic Manuscript
Mesmerist's Fez
Object Reading Spell
Rampaging Golem
Phantom
Spirit

.... I just noticed it looks like ones of the Duergar has both boob plate and facial hair.

Oooh, thanks for posting! That Amiri art is hilarious when you consider the art order behind it; I'm surprised they still paid the guy :smalltongue:

I now want an owlbear plushie.

[Ilorin Lorati]

now want an owlbear plushie.

Jeremy Smith (Dreamscarred Press)'s wife can help with that (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/whimsyworks/wee-beasties-plush-rpg-roleplaying-game-fantasy-cr) (as a stretch goal)!

[Molosse]

Between all the stamina goodies and variant multiclassing (which Fighters barely notice), I'd say they are in a fairly good spot, at least relative to the other martials. Since Unchained there are a lot of cool things you can do with a fighter.

Completely agree with both those points, but still both of those aspects are dependent upon DM hearsay and honestly I'd just like to see one more little push for Fighters. :)


Which thing in particular?

Do apologize, was referring to the Dark Folk I mentioned earlier.

[Psyren]

Completely agree with both those points, but still both of those aspects are dependent upon DM hearsay and honestly I'd just like to see one more little push for Fighters. :)

Well, given that fighter is a class that already exists, the only way to make it better is via splats, which are all "DM hearsay." Unless they make a new edition of the game entirely.



Amiri [According to mark the actual art order for this was "The original (and more occult) art order was for a dream image of the frost giant that Amiri slew to get her sword, attacking her with its own remembered version of the same sword she is currently using. That's not what we got..."]


You'd think they could correct that - just make him a bit translucent and change the weapon.



.... I just noticed it looks like ones of the Duergar has both boob plate and facial hair.

Too much honeyed mead?

[Molosse]

Well, given that fighter is a class that already exists, the only way to make it better is via splats, which are all "DM hearsay." Unless they make a new edition of the game entirely.

Tch. Be fair mate, Unchained and the vast numbers of optional rules it provides exists in a tad of a separate category than books like Ultimate Combat for example.

[Psyren]

Tch. Be fair mate, Unchained and the vast numbers of optional rules it provides exists in a tad of a separate category than books like Ultimate Combat for example.

So is Unearthed Arcana, yet I see people treating things like LA Buyoff, Flaws, Cloistered Clerics, Prestige Paladins, Human Paragon etc. as straight RAW all the time. The line seems to be not "is it optional" but rather "how easy is it to implement for the benefit it gives," and Stamina definitely clears that bar.

And again, without a subsystem like Stamina, the only way to improve Fighters is with specific archetypes like Lore Warden or Martial Master, which may not fit every concept. Someone who truly cares about improving them will take the first-party tools that are offered.

[Molosse]

So is Unearthed Arcana, yet I see people treating things like LA Buyoff, Flaws, Cloistered Clerics, Prestige Paladins, Human Paragon etc. as straight RAW all the time. The line seems to be not "is it optional" but rather "how easy is it to implement for the benefit it gives," and Stamina definitely clears that bar.

And again, without a subsystem like Stamina, the only way to improve Fighters is with specific archetypes like Lore Warden or Martial Master, which may not fit every concept. Someone who truly cares about improving them will take the first-party tools that are offered.

And if this was a discussion about what I'd personally allow and encourage I'd completely agree mate ;). Sadly however this is a discussion on operating within the notion of a varied number of DM's allowing certain aspects of Paizo material while I argue that Unchained, being a book of nominal houserules, may see less play than books such as Inner Sea Guide or Ultimate Combat.

Though this is a tad off topic so suffice to say I see your point and agree, yet simply wish for confirmed rulings with as limited table variance as possible :D.

[Psyren]

I agree in principle but again, calling Unchained "a book of houserules" seems to me to be missing the point. If you're a GM/table that thinks Fighter is fine, you're free to dismiss Unchained. But if you're a table that thinks Fighter needs more help, and still dismisses Unchained, at that point it's kind of on you; that's all I'm saying.

[Molosse]

I agree in principle but again, calling Unchained "a book of houserules" seems to me to be missing the point. If you're a GM/table that thinks Fighter is fine, you're free to dismiss Unchained. But if you're a table that thinks Fighter needs more help, and still dismisses Unchained, at that point it's kind of on you; that's all I'm saying.

That's fair and can't say I disagree.

[Milo v3]

By the way, another way you can buff fighters is the Automatic Bonus Progression, my groups allowing fighters to count as two levels higher for the purposes of it (brawlers and swashbucklers count as 1 level higher). Doesn't help them out of combat much, but protects them abit more from things like will saves and gives them better equipment than other warriors.

[Milo v3]

After watching the paizocon banquet thing, I'm surprised to find out that they actually made the Occultist even closer to Incarnum/Akasha, since now when you invest power into your implements, it stays there rather than you having to latter spend that essence invested.

[Extra Anchovies]

After watching the paizocon banquet thing, I'm surprised to find out that they actually made the Occultist even closer to Incarnum/Akasha, since now when you invest power into your implements, it stays there rather than you having to latter spend that essence invested.

GLORY GLORY HALLELUJAH

The forced decision between keeping strong resonant powers and making effective use of your focus powers was the one thing I didn't like about the Occultist*, and it got fixed! I wouldn't even care if Kineticist ended up worse than it was in playtest, Occultist is playable, gg.

*I also thought that it would be good if they could change up their spells known each day, but that's just wishful thinking.

[Milo v3]

GLORY GLORY HALLELUJAH

The forced decision between keeping strong resonant powers and making effective use of your focus powers was the one thing I didn't like about the Occultist*, and it got fixed! I wouldn't even care if Kineticist ended up worse than it was in playtest, Occultist is playable, gg.

*I also thought that it would be good if they could change up their spells known each day, but that's just wishful thinking.

Oh, and occultist will have at least three archetypes, and they mention two: Battlehost an occultist who is bound to a weapon, and Tome Eater, an occultist who eats scrolls and spellbooks (apparently it was very tempting to have the art be of the wizard Iconic crying holding his spellbook with a bite taken out of it).

Kineticist should be getting double the number of wild talents.

[Extra Anchovies]

Oh, and occultist will have at least three archetypes, and they mention two: Battlehost an occultist who is bound to a weapon, and Tome Eater, an occultist who eats scrolls and spellbooks (apparently it was very tempting to have the art be of the wizard Iconic crying holding his spellbook with a bite taken out of it).

Nice. I'm not sure what that third one will be, but hopefully it's something cool. Also, Tome Eater had better be able to get new spells known by eating scrolls, at least for a while.


Kineticist should be getting double the number of wild talents.

Excellent. Hopefully they're all zero-burn utility powers, because playtest Kineticist's only shtick was taking damage to deal damage. Of course, the elemental fluff is going to limit that quite a bit compared to the stuff the Warlock got, but we can hope.

[Milo v3]

Well, they have now done the first preview and meet the iconic for Occult Adventures.

First is the Occultist; here (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhmh?Meet-the-Iconics-Mavaro)they tell the backstory of it's iconic, and here (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhmk?Occult-Adventures-Class-Preview-The-Occultist)they discuss what's changed between the the playtest and final versions of the occultist.

To me, it seems as though they just went back to the d20 modern class for ideas with it and fixed the mental focus thing.

[Novawurmson]

Six spirits for the medium :smalleek: I'm glad I supported the pact magic kickstarter...

[Extra Anchovies]

Six spirits for the medium :smalleek: I'm glad I supported the pact magic kickstarter...

Yeah, that is pretty disappointing. However, it's been mentioned that the full set of 54 might be handed to a different class in a later book, so there is yet hope.

[Beowulf DW]

Yeah, that is pretty disappointing. However, it's been mentioned that the full set of 54 might be handed to a different class in a later book, so there is yet hope.

Personally, I'd take six options with some thought put into them over fifty-four options with little thought put into most any day of the week. Less complexity with equal depth suits me just fine. Besides, there was a time when Paizo thought that they should deliberately make trap options, so the less options they make at any given time, the less chance that I'll encounter something that gives me a throbbing headache.

[Xerlith]

Vigilante's open for playtest. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhmq?Ultimate-Intrigue-Vigilante-Playtest)

[Milo v3]

Well, the preview for spiritualist (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhng?Occult-Adventures-Class-Preview-The-Spiritualist) and it's iconic (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhna?Meet-the-Iconics-Estra) have been done, and I'm really not impressed.

I was hoping for more to change between the playtest and final version of the class, it needed more than just fine tuning and a nerf, it needed a power Increase.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, the preview for spiritualist (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhng?Occult-Adventures-Class-Preview-The-Spiritualist) and it's iconic (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhna?Meet-the-Iconics-Estra) have been done, and I'm really not impressed.

I was hoping for more to change between the playtest and final version of the class, it needed more than just fine tuning and a nerf, it needed a power Increase.

Hm. Care to explain what was wrong with it? I paid almost no attention to it during the playtest (I was focused on Kineticist and Occultist), and opening up the doc again it looks pretty solid - standard 6ths-caster chassis, good skill list, and a fighty companion that scales with level.

[Milo v3]

Hm. Care to explain what was wrong with it? I paid almost no attention to it during the playtest (I was focused on Kineticist and Occultist), and opening up the doc again it looks pretty solid - standard 6ths-caster chassis, good skill list, and a fighty companion that scales with level.

Many abilities don't last anywhere near enough to be worth it (for example you can only use bonded manifestation for 1 round/level even though it's your combat increaser and that you can only use the following abilities while using bonded manifestation: spirit touch, ectoplasmic tendrils, spirit form). It doesn't have a proper ability to increase their ability to hit unlike basically all other classes, with the closest being that one type of phantom can generate an aura around themselves at 7th level that increases your attack rolls if you're within 20 ft. for a few minutes a day. It can't even do anything like speaking to the dead until 7th level. It has no interaction with haunts. Stuff like that.

[Kaidinah]

Personally, I'd take six options with some thought put into them over fifty-four options with little thought put into most any day of the week. Less complexity with equal depth suits me just fine. Besides, there was a time when Paizo thought that they should deliberately make trap options, so the less options they make at any given time, the less chance that I'll encounter something that gives me a throbbing headache.As someone who was there during the playtest, I can say that the designer in charge of the 54 spirits did actually put thought into each and every one of them. He really cared about this class, and was willing to put the work into making the Harrow deck theme a reality.

And I am aware old Paizo (And old employees/lead developers still in Paizo) likes trap options, but that designer was not old Paizo. He was very much against crap options being in his class.

[Milo v3]

As someone who was there during the playtest, I can say that the designer in charge of the 54 spirits did actually put thought into each and every one of them. He really cared about this class, and was willing to put the work into making the Harrow deck theme a reality.

And I am aware old Paizo (And old employees/lead developers still in Paizo) likes trap options, but that designer was not old Paizo. He was very much against crap options being in his class.

Plus, did you see how much he actually responded and discussed with the medium and kineticist threads, even when the kineticist was just a monsoon of posts. Yeah, Mark's a good guy.... I do feel bad that the Old Paizo guys are forcing him to keep the options he's making weak in the current playtest though so it doesn't overlap with the rogue. Though... stalker's probably much safer in his hands than in the hands of Jason :smalleek:

[Kaidinah]

Plus, did you see how much he actually responded and discussed with the medium and kineticist threads, even when the kineticist was just a monsoon of posts. Yeah, Mark's a good guy.... I do feel bad that the Old Paizo guys are forcing him to keep the options he's making weak in the current playtest though so it doesn't overlap with the rogue. Though... stalker's probably much safer in his hands than in the hands of Jason :smalleek:It is always a tragedy when a good designer is specifically told to keep something in line with the rogue. Not only is it hard to do, but it almost always makes a weak class.

The guy in charge of the Vigilante is the second new developer to make a class specifically with the rogue in mind for balance. It is truly a shame that these new guys are immediately forced into hard (possibly doomed) design projects.

[Extra Anchovies]

Plus, did you see how much he actually responded and discussed with the medium and kineticist threads, even when the kineticist was just a monsoon of posts. Yeah, Mark's a good guy.... I do feel bad that the Old Paizo guys are forcing him to keep the options he's making weak in the current playtest though so it doesn't overlap with the rogue. Though... stalker's probably much safer in his hands than in the hands of Jason :smalleek:

What stuff has Bulmahn designed, and has Seifter worked on anything outside of OcA and UI? I've heard bad things about the former and good things about the latter, but am not familiar with any of Bulmahn's work and only know Seifter from the playtests of the aforementioned two works.

[Milo v3]

What stuff has Bulmahn designed, and has Seifter worked on anything outside of OcA and UI? I've heard bad things about the former and good things about the latter, but am not familiar with any of Bulmahn's work and only know Seifter from the playtests of the aforementioned two works.

The only ones I know Jason has designed was the Summoner, Monk, and the basis of the Vigilante (there are others, I just don't know them).

While I've heard that Seifter was a 3rd party guy making; The Secrets of the Masquerade Reveler, Book of Heroic Races: Reapers, Convergent Paths: Fey Archetypes, and a legendary games plug-in on relationships based on the Persona series (there might be more but that's the ones I'm aware of). While in paizo he's done some stuff in Familiar Folio, Monster Codex (I think it was just one archetype though since he just got the job), Unchained (without him we would not have automatic bonus progression, dynamic item creation, or those working poison and disease rules). He's was also the guy that worked on the Medium and Kineticist classes, the stalker specialization for the current playtest (where jason has ordered him to not have it be better than rogue (WHY??!!?)) and is the individual who as organised the Design Team to regularly make FAQ's rather than making an FAQ once every few months. He's also a 5 star PFS GM, which is nice I guess. Plus, he is actually decent at math, coming from MIT.

[Kaidinah]

What stuff has Bulmahn designed, and has Seifter worked on anything outside of OcA and UI? I've heard bad things about the former and good things about the latter, but am not familiar with any of Bulmahn's work and only know Seifter from the playtests of the aforementioned two works.
I cannot provide a perfect list, but I know Bulmahn is responsible for the summoner, a lot of the badness of the Core rulebook not getting fixed, the Psychic Magic system, and basically every fullcaster. He is also basically the gatekeeper of Core Paizo product lines. If a Paizo designer wants to buff a class that they are writing, such as Seifter wanting to buff the Kineticist, Bulmahn is the guy that says no, and doesn't let them do the change.

I know that Mark Seifter was previously a very active forum member of the Paizo boards called Rogue Eidolon, who had many opinions that differed from Paizo's. He has a tight grasp of Pathfinder's rules, and even wrote good 3rd party products before being hired (Secrets of the Masquerade Reveler was Mark Seifter). For Paizo, he did a lot of coolness in Pathfinder Unchained, including fighting for the inherent bonus section of the book to be written and published. In Occult Adventures, he did the Medium and the Kineticist.

Literally, Bulmahn cut down the Medium's spirit list to make more room in the book for other things. Also, if the Mineticist isn't as buffed as we hoped, its because Bulmahn said no.

[Psyren]

Oh, is JB the new scapegoat now that SKR is gone?

Given that he (a) wrote the Factotum and (b) allowed Seifter to write the Unchained Rogue, which blows the original out of the water, I'd think any rumors of him slavishly sticking to the original rogue's balance point deserve close examination and a large grain of salt.

[Milo v3]

Oh, is JB the new scapegoat now that SKR is gone?

Given that he (a) wrote the Factotum and (b) allowed Seifter to write the Unchained Rogue, which blows the original out of the water, I'd think any rumors of him slavishly sticking to the original rogue's balance point deserve close examination and a large grain of salt.

(-a) I actually barely know anything about material SKR actually wrote, all I know about him is that he sometimes answered questions and sometimes the answers went against RAW or something. My actual primary issue with Jason is that he seems likes putting in thematic abilities as choices, but not making them powerful enough to be worth ever taking. Thematic abilities are cool, but it needs to be mechanically solid as well.
(a) Huh.
(b) It's not a rumour, mark said it. Though he did not say original rogue, simply rogue, so I'm going to assume that both Jason and Mark are referring to unchained rogue when they say it. Which while it is better than normal rogue by a giant amount, I don't think it should be used as an enforced balance point.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

From what I've seen of Psychic Magic, I actually really like the system.

[Milo v3]

From what I've seen of Psychic Magic, I actually really like the system.

Agreed. WHITETEXT

[Kaidinah]

I dislike it because it is still vancian. My preference lies in spheres and power points.

[Psyren]

(-a) I actually barely know anything about material SKR actually wrote, all I know about him is that he sometimes answered questions and sometimes the answers went against RAW or something. My actual primary issue with Jason is that he seems likes putting in thematic abilities as choices, but not making them powerful enough to be worth ever taking. Thematic abilities are cool, but it needs to be mechanically solid as well.
(a) Huh.
(b) It's not a rumour, mark said it. Though he did not say original rogue, simply rogue, so I'm going to assume that both Jason and Mark are referring to unchained rogue when they say it. Which while it is better than normal rogue by a giant amount, I don't think it should be used as an enforced balance point.

I think the Unchained Rogue is a fine balance point unless you're making a full caster.


From what I've seen of Psychic Magic, I actually really like the system.

I like it too - they managed to quickly convert nearly every existing spell and casting PrC to an entire new subsystem with the stroke of a pen, without the pitfalls of having a parallel set of powers, feats, items and PrCs, and still having it feel psychic since it removes the breakdancing and gibberish. It's actually quite brilliant. It guarantees that they won't need a "spells" section and then a "powers" section in every splat they make from now on, or an ongoing "Mind's Eye" column, while also keeping the psychic classes supported. Tbey've also solved the nova problem, the incarceration problems, and I think even the detection problem that psionics had.

This is of course not to say that I don't enjoy psionics (I very much do) but I think Paizo struck a great balance here between the palatable, the familiar and the innovative.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I dislike it because it is still vancian. My preference lies in spheres and power points.

That's fair enough, but I think what the wrote does fairly well establishing itself as different from Arcane and Divine magic.

The two biggest differences I noticed were the new components and undercasting. Emotion and thought components meant that pretty much everything was Stilled and Silent, but made concentration checks more important, along with making sure the caster is in the right frame of mind (no longer do those calming spells that drop barbarians out of rage make casters laugh), and undercasting is just a really useful mechanic I wish we would see backported. The material components are interesting, as well: instead of diamonds or oils or similar, it's something that was important to the character in question; I think it makes much more sense that way, and enables more roleplay opportunities.

[Milo v3]

That's fair enough, but I think what the wrote does fairly well establishing itself as different from Arcane and Divine magic.

The two biggest differences I noticed were the new components and undercasting. Emotion and thought components meant that pretty much everything was Stilled and Silent, but made concentration checks more important, along with making sure the caster is in the right frame of mind (no longer do those calming spells that drop barbarians out of rage make casters laugh), and undercasting is just a really useful mechanic I wish we would see backported. The material components are interesting, as well: instead of diamonds or oils or similar, it's something that was important to the character in question; I think it makes much more sense that way, and enables more roleplay opportunities.

The material components are actually very very very difficult to use. I mean, without damaging the roleplaying there are only so many items your character would consider sentimental enough for them to count, and most probably wouldn't be worth hundreds and hundreds of GP. Much more flavourful though.

[Psyren]

What I think it should be is expensive incenses (to get you in the right frame of mind/state of awareness etc.) and then you contemplate {sentimental item.} That way you functionally use the same GP system as everyone else for material components, plus you only need the one meaningful item or handful of items.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, if I'm traveling with a a psychic caster that casts spells like that, I'm certainly going to want to buy items to get attached to. Also, I think technically a magic item would work, so it could cut down on the 'sell stuff to make ends meet' and cut out the middleman. As an example of making items sentimental, a character could turn an standard magic item, like an amulet of mighty fists, into something sentimental by, say, turning into a clasp that holds a lock of their mother's hair or something.

[Milo v3]

Psychic
Iconic (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhob&page=2?Meet-the-Iconics-Rivani)
Preview (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhoc?Occult-Adventures-Class-Preview-The-Psychic)

[Psyren]

Huh, so only the Psychic can undercast now?

Glad to hear the spell list was expanded, can't wait to see how. The archetypes sound cool - we may have a functional Uncarnate in the Formless Adept, and the Amnesiac sounds bonkers.

I'm still vaguely concerned about the power. A tiefling psychic could wield three metamagic rods for instance (not needing a free hand to cast), and the phrenic pool basically gives you access to metamagic without spending feats. I predict at least T2.

[Milo v3]

Well, it's a spontaneous 9th caster, tier 2 was the most likely for it.

[Eldaran]

Although I highly prefer a tier 3 environment, Paizo has shown they have no problem producing new tier 1 or 2 classes. But at least some of the other stuff from the book looks interesting.

[Psyren]

T1/T2 classes aren't the problem - immature players with those classes are. (I consider Summoner an exception to this though, it needed the nerf.)

[Milo v3]

Firstly Medium Iconic (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhoy&page=2?Meet-the-Iconics-Erasmus) and Medium Preview (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhpa?Occult-Adventures-Class-Preview-The-Medium).

But it turns out they are also doing a second round for the vigilante playtest (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhp4?Ultimate-Intrigue-Vigilante-Playtest-Round-2).

Medium Notes:
The medium is based around contacting legends and spirits rather than "golarion tarot cards", and these spirits are sorted into six different categories that share their names with mythic paths. Sounds more like a binder than it did before. Gets cantrips at first level despite being a 4th caster. Can now actually do medium style stuff like do seances to contact Haunts. Can take taboos from his spirits, in return for benefits. Can use astral projection at-will at 14th level (to be honest, I'm going to assume it's going to be an ability more like etherealness and lesser astral projection combined). It sounds like it has some interesting archetypes (though reanimated sounds confusing):

Kami Medium, "channels the spirits of kami instead of legends, losing all the Astral abilities for the ability to use strange ofuda and shikigami, and even gain a ward like a kami does" (Art of it is used for the preview's image).
Reanimated Medium, "a medium in reverse: after dying, he borrows from his own potential future legends to come back and possess his own body, keeping himself alive. This unique state grants him a variety of benefits and unusual trade-offs." (Mark has said medium have the ability to switch to the reanimated archetype right after dying midway through playing a regular medium, at the GM's discretion of course)
Relic Channeller, "possesses particular relics of a select group of spirits, meaning she contacts the same ones each time. She gains object-based powers and receives extraordinary benefits in exchange for the lack of flexibility." (According to mark, it doubles the stuff you get from a spirit, because of the loss in flexibility).
Spirit Dancer, "shakes the whole system of spirits on its head; instead of choosing a spirit each day and gaining its powers for the whole day, he selects a suite of spirits and spends rounds from a daily pool, allowing him to slip in and out of his suite of spirits with ease, in a strange and exhilarating dance."
Storyteller, " The storyteller is more obsessed with the stories and legends than she even is with the spirits themselves; they are a means to the end of discovering more about the tales of the past. She gains lesser benefits from her spirits in exchange for enhanced knowledge, story-based abilities, and some of the most powerful applications of bardic performance (like inspire courage). Also, she can send you into a story of her own making forever at 20th level, which is pretty nasty!"


Vigilante Notes:

Now has intimidate as a class skill.
Changing identity now only takes 1 minute at level one.
Now has social talents, which do not take up the talent slots of normal talents (thank god), though some abilities have been subsumed into it like loyal aid, social grace, and ... umm... renown... which is weird because it seems like most of these social talents require renown as a prerequisite.
With a social talent you can make it so changing takes only a move-action (at level 13).
You can get a batcave that is constantly protected from divination... but it's small.
Subjective truth is a pretty nice ability thematically, no idea on how it goes on a mechanical level though since it's very very niche.
Can now use abilities outside of vigilante mode, but risks being identified.
I haven't read the vigilante specializations yet aside from glances and a proper read of warlock but there are changes, especially with zealot. Warlock has the least changes, I think he just has some tweaks to the wording of mystic bolt.
Armoured Skin has been expanded. I think....
Jason forgot to hit enter when he was writing Mad Rush.... which is still really really really risky for a character to attempt.
Hidden strike now deals damage in d8's by default.
Familiar now clarifies what happens with it in social identity.
Zealots now have sorcerer bloodlines... sorta.
Fey zealots are basically "not-rangers" rather than "not-inquisitors"... though they can smite evil creatures... which is very weird if you get your powers from an evil fey.

[Scowling Dragon]

Not a major math Guru here, but Im left in a pickle. I am the owner of the "Rouge Genius guide to" books for Monk, Rouge, Barbarian, and Fighter. They come with much flexibility.

However the Unchained versions are also good too. I don't know which versions to use in my games. Or is it possible to fuse them all together?

[Extra Anchovies]

Vigilante Notes:
I haven't read the vigilante specializations yet aside from glances and a proper read of warlock but there are changes, especially with zealot. Warlock has the least changes, I think he just has some tweaks to the wording of mystic bolt. Zealots now have sorcerer bloodlines... sorta.
Fey zealots are basically "not-rangers" rather than "not-inquisitors"... though they can smite evil creatures... which is very weird if you get your powers from an evil fey.


Warlock and Zealot have sort of switched spots power-wise. Warlock's main draw was Mystic Bolt, and although you can now TWF with bolts alone, they're stuck at 1d6 + 1/4 levels instead of 1d6 + 1/level. Why did they take off 15 damage from it? I haven't a clue, but it's stupid.

Zealot, on the other hand, has some interesting things going for it. Abyssal is crap, Celestial is crap, Infernal is niche but not horrible, but that's all balanced out by the fact that Fey is pretty darn good. Druid + Ranger is a much better list than Inquisitor. Also Vanishing Step is actually useful, unlike all of the other Divine Power abilities. Between the various talents Zealot lets you build an Inquisitor who uses the Hunter list, gets basically no 6th-level spells (4/4/4/4/4/1), and gets smite evil instead of Judgement. Pretty neat, actually.

[Milo v3]

Warlock and Zealot have sort of switched spots power-wise. Warlock's main draw was Mystic Bolt, and although you can now TWF with bolts alone, they're stuck at 1d6 + 1/4 levels instead of 1d6 + 1/level. Why did they take off 15 damage from it? I haven't a clue, but it's stupid.

Only just noticed the damage now... and my character is now screwed since he used mystic bolts for combat... :smallannoyed:

On the plus side, it does bypass SR now, but it's damage is too low for my high level warlock considering everything has energy resistance.

[Psyren]

I'd still rather Vigilante be a "secret identity" subsystem available to a variety of classes, so I just can't get into it.

Psychic magic stuff though - gimme gimme! Man, those Medium archetypes sound fun, especially the creep-tastic reanimated medium.


Not a major math Guru here, but Im left in a pickle. I am the owner of the "Rouge Genius guide to" books for Monk, Rouge, Barbarian, and Fighter. They come with much flexibility.

However the Unchained versions are also good too. I don't know which versions to use in my games. Or is it possible to fuse them all together?

Haven't read the RGG versions but I can vouch for Unchained Rogue and Barbarian. The Unchained Monk is very tricky - compared to the core monk it's a clear upgrade, due to being able to pounce and a few other things, but once archetypes and splats enter the picture the old monk might actually pull ahead a bit. Certainly the old monk's archetypes make a strong case for it like Tetori, MoMS, Zen Archer, Far Strike, Flowing, Sensei etc; the Unchained Monk has a ways to go before it can match all that versatility.

There is no Unchained Fighter though, unless you meant the Stamina system? You can bolt that onto any other version of the Fighter (or any martial class at all) that you like.

[Milo v3]

I'd still rather Vigilante be a "secret identity" subsystem available to a variety of classes, so I just can't get into it.
Give the amateur vigilante feat-line to all your PC's automatically when they meet the prerequisites.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Give the amateur vigilante feat-line to all your PC's automatically when they meet the prerequisites.

Does that even exist yet? I know it was a consideration, but I don't remember seeing text of it.

[Milo v3]

Does that even exist yet? I know it was a consideration, but I don't remember seeing text of it.

Not yet. But Jason said during the Know Direction that the team really likes the idea of the feat and thinks it should exist, so it's probably going to exist.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Not yet. But Jason said during the Know Direction that the team really likes the idea of the feat and thinks it should exist, so it's probably going to exist.

Ah.


Only just noticed the damage now... and my character is now screwed since he used mystic bolts for combat... :smallannoyed:

On the plus side, it does bypass SR now, but it's damage is too low for my high level warlock considering everything has energy resistance.

I'd bet money on there being magic items and feats to enhance Mystic Bolt when the book comes out. Doesn't help you much atm though.

[Milo v3]

Some people have no started to get their Occult Adventures PDF's and have started giving information on stuff from the book.

INTRODUCTION 4
CHAPTER 1: OCCULT CLASSES 8
Kineticist 10
Elements 14
Wild Talents 15
Medium 30
Spirits 33
Medium Spells 37
Mesmerist 38
Mesmerist Spells 44
Occultist 46
Implement Schools 50
Occultist Spells 58
Psychic 60
Psychic Disciplines 64
Psychic Spells 69
Spiritualist 72
Spiritualist Spells 76
Phantoms 78
Racial Favored Class Options 84

CHAPTER 2: ARCHETYPES 86
Kineticist 88
Medium 92
Mesmerist 96
Occultist 100
Psychic 104
Spiritualist 108
Other Class Archetypes 112

CHAPTER 3: FEATS 126
Types of Feats 128
Feat Descriptions 128
Feat Table 130

CHAPTER 4: PSYCHIC MAGIC 142
Psychic Magic 144
Spell Lists 145
Spells 156

CHAPTER 5: OCCULT RULES 192
Occult Skill Unlocks 194
Auras 198
Chakras 200
Psychic Duels 202
Possession 206
Occult Rituals 208
Sample Occult Rituals 209
Creating Occult Rituals 214

CHAPTER 6: RUNNING AN OCCULT GAME 216
Running an Occult Game 218
Occult Locations 226
Loci Spirits 226
New Haunt Rules 228
New Haunts 230
Ley Lines 232
Mindscapes 234
Esoteric Planes 238

CHAPTER 7: OCCULT REWARDS 246
Adventuring Gear 248
Alchemical Items251
Magic Items 252
Cursed Items 265
Artifacts 267

INDEX 270
Open Game License 271

Kineticist:
Blood Kineticist (Turns a water kineticist into a blood based one)
Elemental Annihilator (Greater damage output)
Elemental Ascetic (Trades away somethings like the standard kinetic blast and gives you things like unarmed damage, wisdom to AC, "can" use wisdom for kineticist stuff)
Kinetic Chirurgeon (Focused on the kinetic healer power, gets paladin mercy's)
Overwhelming Soul (Charisma based kineticist, compatible with blood kineticist, removes burn)

Medium:
Kami Medium (Has kami instead of spirits)
Reanimated Medium (A medium who is died, and has their own potential future selves for spirits)
Relic Channeler
Spirit Dancer
Storyteller

Mesmerist:
Cult Master (Gives you a cult, and can be revived by possessing your cohort)
Spirit Walker
Toxitician (Poison/Toxin based)
Vexing Daredevil

Occultist:
Battle Host ( forms a bond with weapon, armor, and shield. )
Necroccultist (They learn and contact with the dead instead of item or outsiders. )
Sha'ir - (Has minor genies rather than artefacts - Thank god that mark made this)
Totem Eater (Gain power by actually eating books and scrolls.)

Psychic:
Amnesiac
Formless Adept
Mutation Mind
Psychic Duelist (Makes you better at psychic duels)

Spiritualist:
Ectoplasmatist (Synthesist)
Fractured Mind
Geist Channeler (Your spirit/phantom is more ghost-like, and cannot become physical)
Haunted (You make your spirit/phantom more powerful instead of the other way around.)
Onmyoji

Others:
Ectochymist (Alchemist) (Can trap ghosts)
Promethean Alchemist (Alchemist) (Losses bombs and mutagen to gain a homunculus companion.)
Flesheater (Barbarian)
Phrenologist (Bard)
Silver Balladeer (Bard)
Ghostrider (Cavalier) (Gives you a spectral horse)
Sensate (Fighter) - (They gain battle advantages due to their keen senses. They gain some attack bonuses and other handy things. Gets perception as a class skill)
Relic Hunter (Inquisitor) (Uses divine relics to cast your spells)
Psychic Detective (Investigator) (Replaces alchemy with psychic powers)
Esoteric (Magus) (Gets tattoos)
Mindblade (Magus) (Soulknife)
Karmic Monk (Monk)
Ghost Hunter (Paladin)
Escapologist (Rogue)
False Medium (Rogue)
Ley Line Guardian (Witch) (Gets two class abilities that are focused on using ley lines. One of them turns the Witch into a spontaneous caster.)

Promethean Disciple (Alchemist Discovery) (Based on the promethean archetype, I'm going to Assume that it grants you a homunculus)
Order of the Eastern Star (Cavalier Order)
Order of the Shroud (Cavalier Order)
Ectoplasm (Sorcerer Bloodline)
Psychic (Sorcerer Bloodline)
Ethereal (Witch Patron)
Mind (Witch Patron)


Utility talents are gained at even levels and infusions (or sometimes utility talents based on expanded element) at odd levels.

Burn has not changed, but there is an archetype that removes it called Overwhelming Soul. "In exchange for losing out on being able to do burn stuff, you get bonuses, a larger internal buffer (but what's an internal buffer, you may ask) and you use Cha instead of Con, so even undead can play along!"

Can get energy resistance/immunity through talents.

Pyro's (maybe more than just pyro's but definitely pyros) get access AoE's at level 1.


Etheric shards, incorporeal chains, telekinetic storm.

[Extra Anchovies]

Some people have no started to get their Occult Adventures PDF's and have started giving information on stuff from the book.

Oooh, neat. Can't wait for the full release.


Kineticist:
Blood Kineticist

awwww yeeeah


Utility talents are gained at even levels and infusions (or sometimes utility talents based on expanded element) at odd levels.

Excellent. Do you know if there are more (or better) utility talents, too?


Burn has not changed, but there is an archetype that removes it called Overwhelming Soul. "In exchange for losing out on being able to do burn stuff, you get bonuses, a larger internal buffer (but what's an internal buffer, you may ask) and you use Cha instead of Con, so even undead can play along!"

Oooh, cool. Being Cha-based is a sizable hit, but it's a fair balance assuming non-OS kineticists take a few points of burn every day. I hope it's compatible with Blood Kineticist.

[Milo v3]

Excellent. Do you know if there are more (or better) utility talents, too?
Yeah, was just talking with mark about that. Because of the playtest had most people wanting more skill and utility abilities he has made the class have a much better ability in that area, with less focus on just being a supernatural martial character. Though the annihilator archetype changes that to be much much less focus on utility and instead being most optimized for combat.


I hope it's compatible with Blood Kineticist.
If it isn't many dhampir and vampire kineticists shall be disappointed.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Yeah, was just talking with mark about that. Because of the playtest had most people wanting more skill and utility abilities he has made the class have a much better ability in that area, with less focus on just being a supernatural martial character. Though the annihilator archetype changes that to be much much less focus on utility and instead being most optimized for combat.


If it isn't many dhampir and vampire kineticists shall be disappointed.

I mean it has to because vampires!

Also, I wouldn't say the non-annihilator kineticist is less focused on damage capability than in the playtest. In fact, there are a few areas of damage boosts. It just isn't more focused on it.

[Milo v3]

I mean it has to because vampires!

^ Continued evidence of some dev's activity and awesomeness. Thanks for being so open and your communication with the community.

[Rogue Eidolon]

^ Continued evidence of some dev's activity and awesomeness. Thanks for being so open and your communication with the community.

Nah, it's not from any sort of awesomeness I'd say; nervousness really, both nervous excitement and regular nervousness. Subscribers have their pdfs but I haven't gotten to make my official preview, so I'm nervously watching in case snippet previews give an inaccurate sense of what's to come (or just present misleading information when the previewer wasn't as into the playtest as the person asking them questions).

But of course, thanks for the thanks, and you're always welcome!

[Milo v3]

Nah, it's not from any sort of awesomeness I'd say; nervousness really, both nervous excitement and regular nervousness. Subscribers have their pdfs but I haven't gotten to make my official preview, so I'm nervously watching in case snippet previews give an inaccurate sense of what's to come (or just present misleading information when the previewer wasn't as into the playtest as the person asking them questions).

But of course, thanks for the thanks, and you're always welcome!

Considering how many bits of extra content you've teased with the kineticist and medium over the months, it's been pretty awesome. That pig farmer mob spirit was pretty funny, and it didn't take long for my players to try and think of ways to use it.

And, for the people who've been watching the kineticist most they'd already had like a "preview but not a preview" ages ago when you discussed some of those ideas you had for changes after the playtest like changing feel the burn into elemental overflow that granted ability score bonuses so people didn't feel they had to turn into a elemental form. So I'm mainly curious whether all those ideas went through, how they changed, etc. So the blog preview will be nice to see stuff on how the kineticist has gone with a more solid idea than just snippets that likely wont portray the class completely because of the lack of context that has the exist till the actual release date.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Considering how many bits of extra content you've teased with the kineticist and medium over the months, it's been pretty awesome. That pig farmer mob spirit was pretty funny, and it didn't take long for my players to try and think of ways to use it.

And, for the people who've been watching the kineticist most they'd already had like a "preview but not a preview" ages ago when you discussed some of those ideas you had for changes after the playtest like changing feel the burn into elemental overflow that granted ability score bonuses so people didn't feel they had to turn into a elemental form. So I'm mainly curious whether all those ideas went through, how they changed, etc. So the blog preview will be nice to see stuff on how the kineticist has gone with a more solid idea than just snippets that likely wont portray the class completely because of the lack of context that has the exist till the actual release date.

Glad you liked The Uprising! I had a lot of fun playtesting that one too. There's some other really fun unreleased ones too.

As to kineticist, many of those proposed changes are alive and kicking in the final. I can't wait for the preview blog to share more with everyone!

[Psyren]

Hi Mark!

Any big additions to the Psychic list? Logan mentioned it was going to get more blasting and TK abilities, is that true? Did it get any form of summoning?

[Rogue Eidolon]

Hi Mark!

Any big additions to the Psychic list? Logan mentioned it was going to get more blasting and TK abilities, is that true? Did it get any form of summoning?

Enormously more spells on the psychic's list now than before, many of which are from OA itself (I seem to recall the size of the spell list more than doubled, but I may be misremembering). There's some pretty strong ones and some pretty cool ones, and sometimes an overlap between them. But it's not really my place to tease specific spoilers from Logan's class.

[Milo v3]

In the occult rules chapter is there any section of that which you specifically worked on? I liked your Dynamic Item Creation and Poison/Disease rules previously.

[Rogue Eidolon]

In the occult rules chapter is there any section of that which you specifically worked on? I liked your Dynamic Item Creation and Poison/Disease rules previously.

Unlike Unchained, there weren't lots of pages of stuff we cut from the turnovers and thus space to write all new things like DIC, P/D, or ABP. Though sometimes in my dev pass I wrote or rewrote everything, pretty much in archetypes (like the medium archetypes for instance). However, unlike in Unchained, in OA I got a development pass on everything in the book, even if I wasn't the author. Now, that doesn't mean I had the final say or anything like that, but I got to help out and comment on pretty much everything.

[Psyren]

Enormously more spells on the psychic's list now than before, many of which are from OA itself (I seem to recall the size of the spell list more than doubled, but I may be misremembering). There's some pretty strong ones and some pretty cool ones, and sometimes an overlap between them. But it's not really my place to tease specific spoilers from Logan's class.

Excellent, that's all I needed there.

Last question - concerning the auras teased in the preview, (http://io9.com/first-look-at-the-pathfinder-rpgs-occult-adventures-sou-1704296771) are there any mechanics around helping you read them? Are there skill checks to do so, feats, spells or items?

[Milo v3]

Excellent, that's all I needed there.

Last question - concerning the auras teased in the preview, (http://io9.com/first-look-at-the-pathfinder-rpgs-occult-adventures-sou-1704296771) are there any mechanics around helping you read them? Are there skill checks to do so, feats, spells or items?

Well, the preview mentions a read aura skill unlock, and that preview is the entirety of the aura section.

[(Un)Inspired]

Enormously more spells on the psychic's list now than before, many of which are from OA itself (I seem to recall the size of the spell list more than doubled, but I may be misremembering). There's some pretty strong ones and some pretty cool ones, and sometimes an overlap between them. But it's not really my place to tease specific spoilers from Logan's class.

Yahoo!

I can't wait to see their full spell list

If the Psychic Detective trades alchemy for psychic spell I will seriously lose my beans.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Yahoo!

I can't wait to see their full spell list

If the Psychic Detective trades alchemy for psychic spell I will seriously lose my beans.

Prepare yourself for bean misplacement! (for instance, if you leave them near your phone, you might be able to use your GPS to track the beans)

[Psyren]

Well, the preview mentions a read aura skill unlock, and that preview is the entirety of the aura section.

So Auras aren't mentioned anyplace else in the book but those two places? No spells or items that interact with them?

[(Un)Inspired]

Prepare yourself for bean misplacement! (for instance, if you leave them near your phone, you might be able to use your GPS to track the beans)

Beans Lost

[Rogue Eidolon]

So Auras aren't mentioned anyplace else in the book but those two places? No spells or items that interact with them?

In comparison to, say, Unchained, which was a toolbox of disparate optional rules with ideas on how to build your own, Occult Adventures is much more integrated; all the little rules come together with the intent of evoking a specific feel for your game. As such, while Milo is correct that the entire section titled "auras" was previewed, in fact there are definitely other elements that interact with auras, just as you predicted.

[Milo v3]

So Auras aren't mentioned anyplace else in the book but those two places? No spells or items that interact with them?

I think I must have misspoke, that second bit I said was meant to be me saying like "there isn't more to that section, so the content related to it through the book will likely be minimal rather than tonnes of things everywhere". I wasn't saying it wasn't going to be mentioned anywhere else, more just saying that section seemed more like fluff explanation of existent mechanics like detect evil than being a new crunch-thing that'll be through the book, so while there may be things like the skill unlock I'm not expecting a giant amount of content relating to it.

Sorry for that confusion.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Should there be a book about Occult Adventures, or are we going to wait for a wider release?

[Psyren]

Thanks Milo and Mark.


Should there be a book about Occult Adventures, or are we going to wait for a wider release?

It is a book: Occult Adventures (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9a0h?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Occult-Adventures-Hardcover)

The PDFs are available for subscribers now, and everyone else can buy them 7/29.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

... Thread. I meant thread. I must be tired.

[Extra Anchovies]

So, um... is bean loss good, or bad?

[Ilorin Lorati]

Good. I think. The goodness depends on whether or not trading out alchemy for psychic spells is a good thing or a bad thing.

[Milo v3]

I think it's good, since if the archetype didn't trade alchemy for psychic it'd be rather weird.

[(Un)Inspired]

So, um... is bean loss good, or bad?

In this case, it's definitely a good thing.

I think investigators are super cool as are psychic spells so their marriage is a beautiful thing.

In general, I wish there were more archetypes for classes with 6th level spells that switched the casting around.

[Molosse]

So anyone willing, if able, to drop some info about the Cavalier Archetypes/Orders. Anything fun?

[(Un)Inspired]

Do you guys think the Psychic sorcerer bloodline will let sorcerer cast their spells as psychic spells (ya know, subbing T and E components for V and S and all that jazz)?

That would be pretty cool. It would mean that any casting class could VMC sorcerer for the Psychic bloodline and become a psychic class.

[Psyren]

Do you guys think the Psychic sorcerer bloodline will let sorcerer cast their spells as psychic spells (ya know, subbing T and E components for V and S and all that jazz)?

That would be pretty cool. It would mean that any casting class could VMC sorcerer for the Psychic bloodline and become a psychic class.

If that's the Arcana then no, there will be no way to get it other than actually being a sorcerer.

In addition, given that such an effect would be equivalent to two free metamagics on every sorcerer spell, I'm guessing it would be limited in some way as well - e.g. you can only cast a spell as a psychic spell X/day, or it only applies to spells 1 level or more below your maximum, or something along those lines.

[Milo v3]

Apparently the esoteric planes section says things like black holes = portals to negative energy plane and mentions outsiders such as Aeons(Lords of Karma), Time Elementals, and Manasaputra(Agnishvathas, Barhisads, Manus, and Nirmanakaya). So those are probably going to be in the bestiary 5, it's probably a good thing that Aeons are getting more attention, they had little flavour originally.

There are new possession spells, and apparently "The best thing about normal possession though is that there isn't a range limit (as long as you are on the same plane) for your soul to return to your body. It is *much* safter to use than magic jar and essentially replaces it as a spell.

Paizo basically decided that magic jar was annoyingly complex and unwieldy and killed it. There is an entire section in the psychic rules explaining this and how possession is different from mind control."

[Psyren]

I'll do what I did with Unchained and comb the web for deets.

Archetypes/goodies for the non-occult classes are:

Promethean Disciple (Alchemist Discovery)
Ectochymist (Alchmeist Archetype)
Promethean Alchemist (Alchemist Archetype)
Flesheater (Barbarian Archetype)
Phrenologist (Bard Archetype)
Silver Balladeer (Bard Archetype)
Order of the Eastern Star (Cavalier Order)
Order of the Shroud (Cavalier Order)
Ghost Rider (Cavalier Archetype)
Sensate (Fighter Archetype)
Relic Hunter (Inquisitor Archetype)
Psychic Detective (Investigator Archetype)
Esoteric (Magus Archetype)
Mindblade (Magus Archetype)
Karmic Monk (Monk Archetype)
Ghost Hunter (Paladin Archetype)
Escapologist (Rogue Archetype)
False Medium (Rogue Archetype)
Ectoplasm (Sorcerer Bloodline)
Psychic (Sorcerer Bloodline)
Witch Patrons (Ethereal, Mind)
Ley Line Guardian (Witch Archetype)

Bolded Cavalier stuff for Molosse.

Also, there's an Occultist archetype called Sha'ir, so color me interested.

[Milo v3]

I'm intrigued about I thing I saw mark say on the paizoboard when talking about how Overwhelming Soul is weaker than if you use a standard kineticist with tonnes of burn, "greater skilled kineticist (Diplomacy) to allow you to use your fire to get a big constant boost to Diplomacy, which a normal kineticist can't, thus having an extremely high Diplomacy bonus and being an excellent face...who also can burn you with fire!"

So.... there'll be an option to use elements to buff up your skills... interesting.


I'll do what I did with Unchained and comb the web for deets.


On page 5 I have made a spoiler with details about the various archetypes and options, that I have been updating. It may be of interest.

Edit: Hmm... chakras give mini buffs related to the chakra. Save bonuses, DR, energy resistance... but you have to open them up one by one from their root. Might make it harder to use that in combat, though it does make sense from a flavour standpoint.

[killem2]

The evil AP is all I want from this. I cannot wait. Gonna rock!

[Sayt]

Apparently the esoteric planes section says things like black holes = portals to negative energy plane and mentions outsiders such as Aeons(Lords of Karma), Time Elementals, and Manasaputra(Agnishvathas, Barhisads, Manus, and Nirmanakaya). So those are probably going to be in the bestiary 5, it's probably a good thing that Aeons are getting more attention, they had little flavour originally.

There are new possession spells, and apparently "The best thing about normal possession though is that there isn't a range limit (as long as you are on the same plane) for your soul to return to your body. It is *much* safter to use than magic jar and essentially replaces it as a spell.

Paizo basically decided that magic jar was annoyingly complex and unwieldy and killed it. There is an entire section in the psychic rules explaining this and how possession is different from mind control."

The Black Hole I think was also stated in either Distant Worlds, or the PF planar manual thing (can't remember it's name). Also, the Sun has portals to the elemental plane of fire on it.


I'm intrigued about I thing I saw mark say on the paizoboard when talking about how Overwhelming Soul is weaker than if you use a standard kineticist with tonnes of burn, "greater skilled kineticist (Diplomacy) to allow you to use your fire to get a big constant boost to Diplomacy, which a normal kineticist can't, thus having an extremely high Diplomacy bonus and being an excellent face...who also can burn you with fire!"

So.... there'll be an option to use elements to buff up your skills... interesting.


it must be their..... Warm Personalities :smallcool:

[Milo v3]

The Black Hole I think was also stated in either Distant Worlds, or the PF planar manual thing (can't remember it's name). Also, the Sun has portals to the elemental plane of fire on it.
That was golarion information though, and this is the RPG line. Plus it had fire elemental dolphins... You cannot trust any sourcebook with dolphins.


it must be their..... Warm Personalities :smallcool:
I am now ashamed that I didn't expect that.

Edit: Meet the first NE iconic (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhpw?Meet-the-Iconics-Meligaster).

[Arutema]

Edit: Meet the first NE iconic (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhpw?Meet-the-Iconics-Meligaster).

Lem's evil brother Mel. This cannot be a coincidence.

[Rogue Eidolon]

That was golarion information though, and this is the RPG line. Plus it had fire elemental dolphins... You cannot trust any sourcebook with dolphins.

The most important part of the entire Esoteric Planes section is the discussion of the fact that different traditions have their own takes on the planes, and since the planes are a subjective mortal filter on the reality of a greater cosmos, it is quite possible to see scholastic traditions contradict each other on the true nature of various esoteric topics. There's a great picture of Rivani (a psychic, who believes in the occult scholars' take) and Enora (an arcanist, who instead follows the more traditional schools of thought) arguing about planar minutiae to underscore this.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

If I remember my astrocosmology right, suns have a portal to the Positive Energy Plane at the center, while black holes do indeed have a portal to the negative energy plane.

[Milo v3]

The most important part of the entire Esoteric Planes section is the discussion of the fact that different traditions have their own takes on the planes, and since the planes are a subjective mortal filter on the reality of a greater cosmos, it is quite possible to see scholastic traditions contradict each other on the true nature of various esoteric topics. There's a great picture of Rivani (a psychic, who believes in the occult scholars' take) and Enora (an arcanist, who instead follows the more traditional schools of thought) arguing about planar minutiae to underscore this.
Thats good to see, allows you to add flavour despite it being a setting-neutral book, and deals with the fact that campaigns might have planar structures different to the standard PF setting.


If I remember my astrocosmology right, suns have a portal to the Positive Energy Plane at the center, while black holes do indeed have a portal to the negative energy plane.
Not in golarion. In golarion, suns are giant balls of fire that lead to the elemental plane of fire rather than giant balls of life that lead to life.

[Milo v3]

The skill unlocks names and skills:

Automatic Writing (Linguistics)
Dowsing (Survival)
Faith Healing (Heal)
Hypnotism (Diplomacy)
Phrenology (Knowledge (Arcana))
Prognostication (Sense Motive)
Psychometry (Appraise)
Read Aura (Perception)


I wouldn't be surprised if the occultist got skill unlock for psychometry for free.

[Molosse]

Order of the Eastern Star (Cavalier Order)
Order of the Shroud (Cavalier Order)
Ghost Rider (Cavalier Archetype)


Bolded Cavalier stuff for Molosse.

Also, there's an Occultist archetype called Sha'ir, so color me interested.

Gent' and a Scholar, as are you Milo. Looking forward to the application of the Occult upon erstwhile Martial classes.

[(Un)Inspired]

If that's the Arcana then no, there will be no way to get it other than actually being a sorcerer.

In addition, given that such an effect would be equivalent to two free metamagics on every sorcerer spell, I'm guessing it would be limited in some way as well - e.g. you can only cast a spell as a psychic spell X/day, or it only applies to spells 1 level or more below your maximum, or something along those lines.

Blerg, you're probably right.

[animewatcha]

So what is so special on karmic monk?

[Milo v3]

So what is so special on karmic monk?

I haven't seem much mention of it, except I saw one person say it can be neutral in alignment instead of lawful.

[Extra Anchovies]

I haven't seem much mention of it, except I saw one person say it can be neutral in alignment instead of lawful.

Darn. That will only lead to another set of "help me build a monk/barbarian because I don't know how to build a multiclass character" threads. They always come in groups, from what I've seen. Don't know why.

Eh, whatever. It had better A) have class features that make it actually useful outside of combat, unlike pretty much every monk ability or archetype ever and B) be compatible with the uMonk.

[Milo v3]

B) be compatible with the uMonk.
iirc... it isn't :smallsigh:

Edit: Apparently the flesheater barbarian archetype can take abilities from monsters it eats... Hope it's from a list or some abilities will be so abusable.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Not in golarion. In golarion, suns are giant balls of fire that lead to the elemental plane of fire rather than giant balls of life that lead to life.

Well, looking at my Distant Worlds book, it says Golarion's sun (the Burning Mother) has such a portal.

"Starheart: As with many stars on the Material Plane, the sun's core contains a portal to the Positive Energy Plane. Carefully shielded Jyoti guard the gateway, protecting it from the few enemies not incinerated by the sun itself."

Granted there are a great many fire elementals living on the sun, but that's what it says. It was printed in 2012, so if they've gone and retconned that, let me know. There are quite a few connections to the sunlight=life trope, such as Sarenrae and Solar Dragons.

[Scowling Dragon]

Actually the Sun=Life makes sense more then it just being fire. It explains why so many undead are vulnerable to sunlight for example.

[Milo v3]

Well, looking at my Distant Worlds book, it says Golarion's sun (the Burning Mother) has such a portal.

"Starheart: As with many stars on the Material Plane, the sun's core contains a portal to the Positive Energy Plane. Carefully shielded Jyoti guard the gateway, protecting it from the few enemies not incinerated by the sun itself."

Granted there are a great many fire elementals living on the sun, but that's what it says. It was printed in 2012, so if they've gone and retconned that, let me know. There are quite a few connections to the sunlight=life trope, such as Sarenrae and Solar Dragons.

Huh, I stand corrected. I was remembering the fact it mentions portals to the elemental plane of fire multiple times, and skimming that location.

Edit: The kineticist iconic looks... different from what I was expecting.

[Psyren]

Darn. That will only lead to another set of "help me build a monk/barbarian because I don't know how to build a multiclass character" threads. They always come in groups, from what I've seen. Don't know why.



Eh, whatever. It had better A) have class features that make it actually useful outside of combat, unlike pretty much every monk ability or archetype ever and B) be compatible with the uMonk.

As far as I can see nothing in there helps uMonk. I'm really sad. Why did it have to be incompatible with every archetype? :smallfrown:

[Molosse]

Eh, whatever. It had better A) have class features that make it actually useful outside of combat, unlike pretty much every monk ability or archetype ever and B) be compatible with the uMonk.

As far as I can see nothing in there helps uMonk. I'm really sad. Why did it have to be incompatible with every archetype? :smallfrown:

There, There Psy. It could be worse.

[Psyren]

There, There Psy. It could be worse.

Half of that wasn't me, I did a broken quote tag there. See edit above

[Sayt]

As a GM, with regard to uMonk... I'd be tempted to say "Damn the Sidebar, if it fits, it sits!"

I hope this makes sense, brain is ded and I'm thinking in memes

[Milo v3]

Mesmerist preview (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhq3?Occult-Adventures-Class-Preview-The-Mesmerist#discuss)

[Psyren]

As a GM, with regard to uMonk... I'd be tempted to say "Damn the Sidebar, if it fits, it sits!"

I hope this makes sense, brain is ded and I'm thinking in memes

It does :smallsmile: sadly it's not just the designers getting in the way here, the uMonk dumped a lot of things that the archetypes look for to trade out. Though I suppose you could just chuck ki powers at/near the indicated levels or something.

[Milo v3]

It does :smallsmile: sadly it's not just the designers getting in the way here, the uMonk dumped a lot of things that the archetypes look for to trade out. Though I suppose you could just chuck ki powers at/near the indicated levels or something.

I think everyman gaming might have made a 3rd party book that converted all the PRD monk archetypes to unchained archetypes.

[Psyren]

I think everyman gaming might have made a 3rd party book that converted all the PRD monk archetypes to unchained archetypes.

I saw this one (http://shop.d20pfsrd.com/products/unchained-monk-archetypes) by Purple Duck but I'm unfamiliar with their work so I was holding off on getting it. Everyman I'm more familiar with so I might be more inclined to that one, assuming they're different? Or are they the same, or did you mean PD?

[Milo v3]

I saw this one (http://shop.d20pfsrd.com/products/unchained-monk-archetypes) by Purple Duck but I'm unfamiliar with their work so I was holding off on getting it. Everyman I'm more familiar with so I might be more inclined to that one, assuming they're different? Or are they the same, or did you mean PD?

I'm not very familiar with Purple Duck either, but I was sure I remembered Alexander saying he was going to make an unchained monk archetype book. Here's the book (http://shop.d20pfsrd.com/products/everyman-unchained-monk-archetypes).

[Psyren]

I'm not very familiar with Purple Duck either, but I was sure I remembered Alexander saying he was going to make an unchained monk archetype book. Here's the book (http://shop.d20pfsrd.com/products/everyman-unchained-monk-archetypes).

Perfect, glad I held off. I'll get that one instead (and probably the Purple Duck one later to compare, maybe I'll like what they did with X better.)

[Ilorin Lorati]

Alexander also did a second book with most of the rest of the archetypes not in the first one (which was focused on converting the core book line)

[Milo v3]

Art preview (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhq8?Open-Your-Eyes-Occult-Adventures-Art-Preview)

[killem2]

Is there anything else about that evil module out? Artwork, possible setting? Anything?

[Sayt]

Well there's this art from AP#97 (https://www.facebook.com/WayneReynoldsArtworks/photos/a.276803685739711.71688.271617502924996/881735708579836/?type=1)

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/10858565_881735708579836_1641524276318767965_n.jpg ?oh=71dfb8d917a9d64fa42aa76e73687766&oe=56147058

[Milo v3]

Hmm... Kineticists can kill elementals by ripping their element out of their bodies to ignore resistance and immunity. Cool.

Also, the promethean alchemist allows alchemists to finally create constructs.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Hmm... Kineticists can kill elementals by ripping their element out of their bodies to ignore resistance and immunity. Cool.

Also, the promethean alchemist allows alchemists to finally create constructs.

The kineticist ability actually works on anything with the right subtype, so, for instance, a pyrokineticist could use it against a red dragon too!

@Alchemist: It was initially just an archetype ability, but I pulled it out and made it a discovery everyone could take, since I wanted alchemists to be able to make constructs. The archetype gets the discovery for free!

[(Un)Inspired]

The kineticist ability actually works on anything with the right subtype, so, for instance, a pyrokineticist could use it against a red dragon too!

@Alchemist: It was initially just an archetype ability, but I pulled it out and made it a discovery everyone could take, since I wanted alchemists to be able to make constructs. The archetype gets the discovery for free!

Awesome on both counts.

I kinda want the next dragon I run as a DM to have a bunch of element-appropriate kineticist levels tacked on it.

[Ilorin Lorati]

@Alchemist: It was initially just an archetype ability, but I pulled it out and made it a discovery everyone could take, since I wanted alchemists to be able to make constructs. The archetype gets the discovery for free!

The more I see of you, the happier I am you're working for Paizo.

[9mm]

Just got done doing a quick read through of Occult.

words can not describe how dissapointing the mezmerist seems, painful stare has hillarious restrictions that make it terribad, tricks are either similiarly limited or half-way decent, and bold stare doesn't justify going single target. I pray I'm missing goodies in the spell list.

at least the kinitist got the buffs we asked for.

Also is that a sneak attack free archtype section? signs of the Apocalypse!

[Milo v3]

Kineticist Iconic Yoon (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhqz&page=1?Meet-the-Iconics-Yoon#), and Kineticist Preview (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhr0?Occult-Adventures-Class-Preview-The-Kineticist).

[Extra Anchovies]

MEET THE KINETICIST, NOW WITH 100% MORE TALENTS

NEW INTERNAL BUFFER - TAKE BURN WITHOUT TAKING BURN

BLOOD KINETICIST WORKS WITH OVERWHELMING SOUL - WE VAMPIRES NOW

PUT ON YOUR AVATAR PANTS, THERE'S AN ARCHETYPE WITH FLURRY OF BLOWS

OWLBEAR PLUSHIE IS CANON

Really though, everything in the Iconic description and in the class preview is solid gold. The changes to the kineticist were going to make or break this book for me, and Paizo's definitely gained a customer on this one. I've still got a number of specifics that I am hoping will be in the class (and that I'm fixing myself if they aren't), like full BAB on the elemental ascetic and ranged iteratives (or burn-free composite blasts) with base Kineticist, but I'm still super pumped for the release now.

[Milo v3]

Also, from what I have read from Mark in threads with Rynjin and talking with him about playing a character who used metal blasts (in the form of swords) as his default blast, it sounds like the flavour of the blasts is rather mutable and that it is easily possible to create new forms of composite blasts such as electrifying the above mentioned metal blast.

[Milo v3]

The Advanced Class Guide errata is now available here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources).

[Rogue Eidolon]

MEET THE KINETICIST, NOW WITH 100% MORE TALENTS

NEW INTERNAL BUFFER - TAKE BURN WITHOUT TAKING BURN

BLOOD KINETICIST WORKS WITH OVERWHELMING SOUL - WE VAMPIRES NOW

PUT ON YOUR AVATAR PANTS, THERE'S AN ARCHETYPE WITH FLURRY OF BLOWS

OWLBEAR PLUSHIE IS CANON

Really though, everything in the Iconic description and in the class preview is solid gold. The changes to the kineticist were going to make or break this book for me, and Paizo's definitely gained a customer on this one. I've still got a number of specifics that I am hoping will be in the class (and that I'm fixing myself if they aren't), like full BAB on the elemental ascetic and ranged iteratives (or burn-free composite blasts) with base Kineticist, but I'm still super pumped for the release now.

I am really excited that you are pumped! I can confirm that elemental ascetic's flurry gives it pseudo-full BAB (so a yes on that count) and that the base kineticist can gather for a burn-free composite at 11th! (and gather for a burn free empowered composite at 16th) So hopefully, that's 2/2!

[Psyren]

The Advanced Class Guide errata is now available here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources).

Huzzah! That means a new print run, which means the old one must have sold out.

I might actually buy the second printing, if it fixed the cover.

[Squirrel_Dude]

The Advanced Class Guide errata is now available here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources).
9 Pages of Errata for that book.

Still probably didn't get everything, but it's a damn fine start.

[Extra Anchovies]

So. Major changes.

Hybrid Classes
Arcanist:

Can only consume spells/magic items Cha/day each.
Counter Drain only works with the Counterspell exploit.

Bloodrager:

Can swap spells at levels 8/11/14/17/20.

Brawler:

Now proficient with shields! Also your AC bonus applies while wielding one.

Investigator:

Unconventional Inspiration no longer has level gating.

Shaman:

A number of hexes got "A creature affected by this hex cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours" added to their text.
Life Link applies when a target is 5 or more HP below maximum, not at -5 or lower.
The full Summon Monster line is on your spell list, along with Remove Disease.

Skald:

Perform (Wind) is on the skill list and covers Diplomacy and Handle Animal through Versatile Performance.

Slayer:

You can now pick a bonus feat as an advanced talent.

Swashbuckler:

Opportune Parry and Riposte can't have its cost reduced.

Warpriest:

Fervor can now only be used with spells with a casting time of 1 round or shorter.
Aspect of War is 1/day, swift action to start.

Archetypes

Exemplar Brawler loses Close Weapon Mastery in addition to Unarmed Strike.
Daring Champion Cavalier can't select Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Ecclesitheurge Cleric can now give one ally +2 to stuff as a standard action, and can spend a use of channel energy to extend it for a number of rounds equal to their channel dice (which is odd, since they lose a channel increase). This is a new ability.
Wild Whisperer Druid only gets access to small and medium forms via Wild Shape.
Mutation Warrior Fighter gets Mutagen at level 3, not level 1.
Bolt Ace Gunslinger starts with a free masterwork crossbow.
Bolt Ace Gunslinger's Sharp Shoot can't have its cost reduced.
Divine Hunter's Animal Companion has CR = HD for purposes of its template.
Primal Hunter's Animal Companion only gets 2 evolution points, increasing to 4 at 8th and 6 at 15th levels.
Verminous Hunter can't get stacking bleed or fast healing via animal focus.
Mastermind Investigator only gets free Inspiration on Diplomacy and Intimidate, and you can't misread your way to free Inspiration on every skill check anymore.
Characters with Luck and Panache don't get 2*Cha to their pool.
Magi with Arcane Deed or Flamboyant Arcana can't use Panache to fuel or gain passive benefits from the selected deeds and can't use Arcane Pool points to fuel other deeds.
Kata Master Monk gets Dodging Panache instead of Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Psychic Searcher Oracle gets Cha-based Inspiration.
Hooded Champion Ranger's Dead Eye can't have its cost reduced.
Witch Doctor Shamans can't get two channel abilities through their class features and the Life spirit.
Spell Warrior Skalds can provide allies with rage powers through the Enhance Weapons performance.
Sniper Slayers get to completely ignore range restrictions on sneak attack.
Sniper Slayers now add their class level to damage rolls on ranged sneak attacks against completely unaware targets (enemies who have already been hit become no aware of your presence, but not necessarily your location).
Stygian Slayer is now proficient with weapons.
Inspired Blade Swashbucklers get a 14-20 threat range with rapiers at 20th level.
Mysterious Avenger and Picaroon Swashbukclers get their finesse abilities at 1st level.
Sacred Fist Warpriests' AC bonus is now Dodge instead of Deflection, so they can benefit from Rings of Protection.
Hex Channeler can no longer gain channel increases from the Extra Hex feat (bye-bye 20d6 channels).

Feats

I'll only be touching the ones that were or are now useful.
Amateur Swashbuckler can't provide Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Animal Soul is completely reversed. It now lets you ignore spells that can't affect both animals and creatures of your own type. Makes it kinda useful.
Battle Cry only allows rerolls on saves against fear effects.
Canny Tumble lets you deny an enemy Dex to AC in addition to giving +2 to hit.
Divine Protection only lets you add Cha to one save per day.
Evolved Companion can't provide Pounce or Reach.
Extra Panache now functions normally (just plain stacking) instead of ambiguously snowballing.
Pummeling Style now just lets you total your unarmed strike damage from a full attack or flurry of blows and then apply DR once to the total. No more crit shenanigans, and it applies on-hit stuff more than once.
Pummeling Charge now lets you make an unarmed full attack or flurry of blows at the end of a charge.
Slashing Grace works with light weapons, but not with TWF, flurry of blows, or anything that uses up your off hand.

I'm not bothering with spells or items.

TL;DR:
The Swashbuckler has a niche, and that is being the only way to get Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Sniper Slayer is pretty great, to the point that they're among the best archers in the game now.
Sacred Fists can stack their AC up even higher.
Canny Tumble is now a possible reason to take Dodge and Mobility.
Divine Protection is completely gutted. Good riddance.
Pummeling Style is Clustered Shots for Unarmed Strikes, and Pummeling Charge is Pounce for unarmed strikes.

[Rogue Eidolon]

<Great Rundown>


This is a great rundown you put together in a very short time! Keep in mind the language on sniper slayer is more restrictive than your summary (they must be completely unaware of your presence); however, it is still pretty strong, even so!

[(Un)Inspired]

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Divine protection was both my bread AND my butter!

[Extra Anchovies]

This is a great rundown you put together in a very short time! Keep in mind the language on sniper slayer is more restrictive than your summary (they must be completely unaware of your presence); however, it is still pretty strong, even so!

Thanks! I initially meant to only do base classes, but I realized that I wanted to do archetypes for my own sake and when I saw the changes to some of the feats I knew I had to mention them.

Good catch about the Sniper; I'll edit accordingly. It's still a really nice buff.


NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Divine protection was both my bread AND my butter!

I, for one, will not be missing full-casters getting Cha to saves while staying single-classed.

[(Un)Inspired]

But... But... Extra Anchovies, I had a really cool LOracle that was fun and wasn't game breaking and I really loved him...

[Lord_Gareth]

Brawler: Now proficient with shields! Also your AC bonus applies while wielding one.


Man, if only the playtesters had caught this. I mean, it seems like OH WAIT WE SPENT THE ENTIRE PLAYTEST TALKING ABOUT THIS ONLY TO GET TOLD THAT WE WERE FILTHY MUNCHKINS WHO NEEDED TO STOP WHINING, NOT THAT I'M FREAKING BITTER.

I mean, I'm glad it got fixed eventually but god, that's actually kinda freakin' insulting.

[squiggit]

Sacred Huntsmen Inquisitors can still pick up animal domain. Figured that'd be an almost guaranteed first round fix.

[Sayt]

Hey, Animal Soul used to let you simultaneously Animal Growth yourself and your mount. I am sad that this has passed. Merciless butchery being nerfed is sad, I always wanted to play the unarmed/stunning fist Slayer that punched people in the nose, then broke their necks.

[Molosse]

"Aether gains telekinetic invisibility, which lets you use strands of aether to dampen sound and refract light around yourself, potentially fooling sound-based blindsense like the echolocation spell. Air can gain evasion and can even haste the whole party by either spending your turn or taking burn to keep it active. Earth can create deadly areas of difficult terrain that cause reduced blast damage—and special substance effects of course!—to everyone inside everyone (pair with grappling infusion substance to make grasping hands of earth that hold them in place to take damage again and again). Fire can burn away an enemies buffs and has fan of flames, a cone-shaped blast available at 1st-level. Water can summon a tsunami to annihilate entire settlements."

That, uh, escalated quickly.

[Psyren]

Ah, so Pummeling Style is actually a series of punches now instead of just one - interesting.



I'm not bothering with spells or items.


I'll field these.

Spells


Various - the short description spell lists were updated or tweaked.
Blade Lash/Disguise Weapon/Life Pact - Added SR:No and no save line, not that these spells needed them.
Blood Armor - no longer stacks with existing enhancement bonus. So if you have +3 armor, you have to get hit 4 times before this is worth anything, for at least 5 damage each. (Sidenote: I think this spell would have made sense as a Qinggong power, using your ki to harden your shed blood into perfectly flexible "armor." But I digress.)
Contingent Action - nerfed to Sorc 3/Bard 3.
Contingent Scroll - Now self-only and lasts a much shorter time (10 min./level instead of hours/level.) However, it does take less time to cast now.
Curse of Burning Sleep - Now opponents can put the fire out instead of burning forever. Imagine that :smallbiggrin:
Disable Construct - Heavily nerfed; now the construct gets to save every round (à la Hold Person) and magic-immune constructs like golems get an additional +4 on their save.
Extreme Flexibility - Nerfed, now only helps you escape a grapple. It still requires somatic components making it difficult to use if you're already in one.
Eyes of the Void - Duration nerfed from 10 min./lvl to 1 min./lvl.
Feast on Fear - Nerfed, now requires a standard action each round to fear more creatures.
Heart of the Metal - the material you apply must match the one you used as a material component.
Hex Vulnerability - now only works on offensive hexes; no more repeat healing or Fortune.
Line In The Sand: - Clarified to have no save, no SR, not that it
Mantle of Calm - clarified to be mind-affecting, and also added the emotion descriptor.
Marching Chant - You can now hustle and concentrate on this at the same time, so no need to ride in the wagon to make this work anymore.
Molten Orb - now an Evocation spell with the earth and fire descriptors.
Nauseating Trail - added to the druid list, giving them access to Stinking Cloud. (Judging by the Lini art, druids were always supposed to have this.)
Planeslayer's Call - radius nerfed, now mind-affecting (for those allies where that might matter.)
Sense Spirit Magic - range limit removed.
Spellcrash et al. - Now eats 1 spell/round, with no save on the first one lost!
Greater Thunderstomp - More clearly lets you trip all creatures in the area regardless of size.
Twilight Haze - added the Shadow descriptor... which it already had? Not sure what they did here.
Unliving Rage - Now boosts Cha instead of Con, thankfully.



Items


Woad Painting Kit - now only lets you paint costless material components into your skin (a la Eschew Materials.) You can also only paint one stilled spell onto you at a time.
Dust Knuckles - you only get one dose of poison or ground minerals per punch.
Answering - the enhancement bonus now only counts towards opportune parry and riposte, not in general. Also, it only applies to melee weapons.
Confounding - the bonus is now typed (enhancement), rendering it mostly pointless because you already get your weapon's enhancement bonus to all those checks. What? (The immediate attempt after a crit is nice I guess?)
Swashbuckler's Rapier - activated as a swift action.
Ring of Lingering Blood Magic - no longer works on spells that last less than a round (e.g. instantaneous or dischargeable buffs.)
Ring of Resilience - you now only get one shot at removal per condition.
Ring of Summoning Affinity (Aeon) - the 4th-level monster was nerfed to 6th-level.
Ring of Summoning Affinity (Asura) - the 4th-level monster was nerfed to 6th-level.
Rod of Abrupt Hexes - price was doubled.
Rod of Grasping Hexes - price was more than tripled.
Rod of Interminable Hexes - price was more than tripled.
Rod of Potent Hexes - price was multiplied by six. Yikes!
Rod of Voracious Hexes - price was nearly quadrupled.
Monstrification Staff - default CL increased to 8.
Spark Staff - No longer needs Scorching Ray to make.
Amulet of the Blooded - added a sorcerer bloodline requirement. (Bloodragers get the shaft?)
Amulet of the Spirits - added a Shaman spirit requirement.
Belt of Superior Maneuvers - only the prices in the body of the table matter. The +1 belt's price doubled, however.
Blouse of the Boastful Bastard - Moved to Shirt (Chest) slot.
Boots of the Battle Herald - now a move action to activate. Lasts longer (11 minutes), but you can't divide the time up anymore either.
Brass Spider - can only be used to disable from range once per day.
Drinking Horn of the Panacea - now only provides lesser restoration instead of restoration.
Elixir of Sex Shift - the language is much more trans-inclusive. (Yes, I'm rating that blue, it's my ratings list. :smalltongue:)
Handkerchief of Finding - You must be aware of the handkerchief's power before the attunement clock starts ticking.
One-Way Window - Price nearly doubled. Also, divinations don't work through it anymore, and lead blocks it completely.
Plume of Panache: Now activated in conjunction with the desired deed rather than separately.
Runestone of Power - only the costs in the body of the table matter.
Toothpick of Pyrotechnics - Range heavily nerfed from 120 ft. to 20 ft.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Divine Protection is completely gutted. Good riddance.

I personally think they went too far on that one. My initial reading (forgetting entirely about the table being changed in addition to the text) it looked like it was changed to just a single save instead of all three. Would have been a much better nerf, and far less hilariously overpowered than the original still.

Steadfast Personality now (essentially) replaces Wisdom for Charisma on will saves, so the heavy lifter portion of Divine Protection is still available in some form, at least.





Twilight Haze - added the Shadow descriptor... which it already had? Not sure what they did here.



It was part of the shadow subschool; it didn't have the shadow descriptor.

[Tuvarkz]

Divine protection did need the nerf, but damn now it's borderline useless due to how hard it is to time it.

[Coxswain]

The Parry + Riposte thing is kind of... a bummer. Mostly because I loved Daring Champion and it gave me the flavor of what I wanted from a lightly armored fencer even better than Swashbuckler does. Might just see if my DM will let me ignore that one.

EDIT: Ooops, I thought they got it base for some reason. Guess it's not as big a bummer as that.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Not a fan of giving the swashbuckler a niche by taking away a neat ability from other classes/archetypes, but that's ultimately small potatoes.

[9mm]

*reads through errata*

so how does jabbing master work now? my guess is I just increase the number of d6s I roll based on hits but seriously paizo, you have already broken one style feat by not errataing the whole chain, don't do it again.

[Psyren]

*reads through errata*

so how does jabbing master work now? my guess is I just increase the number of d6s I roll based on hits but seriously paizo, you have already broken one style feat by not errataing the whole chain, don't do it again.

The "once per round" provision was removed, so basically this gives you the bonus damage every time you hit after the first.
As written here's what happens currently.

Jabbing Style only:

First hit: normal damage
Second hit: normal + 1d6
Third hit: normal + 1d6
Fourth hit: normal + 1d6...
etc.

Jabbing Style + Jabbing Master

First hit: normal damage
Second hit: normal + 2d6
Third hit: normal + 4d6
Fourth hit: normal + 4d6
etc.

[9mm]

The "once per round" provision was removed, so basically this gives you the bonus damage every time you hit after the first.
As written here's what happens currently.

Jabbing Style only:

First hit: normal damage
Second hit: normal + 1d6
Third hit: normal + 1d6
Fourth hit: normal + 1d6...
etc.

Jabbing Style + Jabbing Master

First hit: normal damage
Second hit: normal + 2d6
Third hit: normal + 4d6
Fourth hit: normal + 4d6
etc.
that's what I figured, but still, clarity would be nice.

[Milo v3]

Art from blog:
http://static4.paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1132-OccultGame.jpg

http://static4.paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1132-Rewards.jpg

http://static4.paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1132-Possession.jpg

http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1132-GhostRider.jpg

http://static4.paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1132-Omnyuoji.jpg

[master4sword]

Bloodrager:

Lose access to slow.



No, they didn't. It was erroneously listed on both the 3rd- and 4th-level spell lists, and they removed it from 4th, leaving it available as a 3rd-level spell.

[Shadowscale]

Stygian Slayer is now proficient with weapons.

Elixir of Sex Shift - the language is much more trans-inclusive.

Please explain and expand.

[Milo v3]

Stygian Slayer is now proficient with weapons.

Elixir of Sex Shift - the language is much more trans-inclusive.

Please explain and expand.

In the original stygian slayer archetype, it accidently replaced the weapon and armour proficiencies, when it should have just replaced armour proficiencies, causing the archetype to lose proficiencies in all weapons. That is fixed now.

As for elixir of sex shift:

Upon drinking this elixir, a character changes sex, permanently transforming into a member of a different biological sex. While the user's physiology changes dramatically and the user's features adjust slightly to take on the qualities of the new sex, the character is still recognizable as the same person. The character has only minor control over the specific details of this new appearance, and the elixir grants no benefit on Disguise skill checks or similar checks.

This elixir's magic functions instantaneously and can't be dispelled, though drinking a second elixir of sex shift reverts the character back to the former sex and appearance. The elixir has no effect on characters who are pregnant or are of races with no sexual differentiation. Characters of races with more than two sexes may decide which sex this elixir transforms them into.



Upon drinking this elixir, a character permanently transforms their biology to take on a different set of
sexual characteristics of their choice. While the imbiber’s physiology changes dramatically and their features adjust slightly to take on the new qualities, the imbiber is still recognizable as the same person. The character has only minor control over the specific details of this new appearance, and the elixir grants no benefit on Disguise skill checks or similar checks.

This elixir’s magic functions instantaneously and can’t be dispelled, though drinking a second elixir of sex shift either reverts the character back to a former form or allows them to adopt alternate sexual characteristics, as they choose. The elixir has no effect on characters who are pregnant or are of races with no sexual differentiation. Most races have a wide spectrum of sexual differentiation, some common, others more rare. Therefore, most creatures can decide how this elixir transforms them. An unwilling imbiber can choose not to change at all.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Okay, now I barely understand what it's trying to say. The last change specifically. If I saw the new text without knowing the old text, I would have no idea what the hell the item is trying to do.

[Extra Anchovies]

Okay, now I barely understand what it's trying to say. The last change specifically. If I saw the new text without knowing the old text, I would have no idea what the hell the item is trying to do.

Drinking it lets you change your physical attributes to have a different set of sexual characteristics. Drinking again can change you back, or to another set of sexual characteristics. You choose the exact effects of the elixir. You have to be willing for it to work.

[Ilorin Lorati]

It makes sense to me. Basically, it's saying that you can take on whatever set of sexual characteristics that you want, and you can't force a person to change with it.

Before, it was worded so that the imbiber changed to a different specific sex, with all the bits and bobs thereof - now the user can pick and choose, as long as the race has multiple different sets of bits and bobs.

tl;dr: Good for anyone not on the binary.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

So it can turn the imiber into a hermaphrodite if they want? Okay?

On the other hand, my idea for an alchemist using it with alchemical allocation just got a lot more fun. And confusing.

[Psyren]

The updated language basically acknowledges that the final clause, about more than two sexes, does apply to most races (including humans) where the former would have required you to have a GM that already understands this fact. It's mostly a bit of harmless education baked into a magic item's description.

It also prevents unwilling changes now, which is nice - there's more than likely at least one GM out there who originally had the bright idea of swapping this for some character's healing potion for "lulz."


So it can turn the imiber into a hermaphrodite if they want? Okay?


While intersex characteristics are certainly possible with the elixir, the idea is that you have full control of your expression and can stop at any point on the spectrum you choose.

[Hrugner]

While intersex characteristics are certainly possible with the elixir, the idea is that you have full control of your expression and can stop at any point on the spectrum you choose.

So, in theory, you could use this to really ratchet up your level of physical sexual expression? I wonder if this piece of errata was issued in a spam email or in an animated ad on a skeezy website.

[Psyren]

So, in theory, you could use this to really ratchet up your level of physical sexual expression? I wonder if this piece of errata was issued in a spam email or in an animated ad on a skeezy website.

It'd seem so - By RAW, you'd get no bonus from that sort of "enhancement," however :smallbiggrin:

[Ilorin Lorati]

*snip, description of elixir*

If a DM wants it to happen it still will, but it's nice of Paizo to at least think about it for their own purposes. Your way of putting the change is definitely a better way of putting it; I just wanted to use "bits and bobs" as a euphemism for sexual characteristics.

On another note, why is it not Wednesday yet? I DEMAND ANSWERS!

[Milo v3]

Occult Adventures is now up for sale, and I now have my own copy of the PDF. Lets see how things ended up.

[Extra Anchovies]

I feel like we should start a new thread for Occult Adventures discussion, because it's its own topic.

[Milo v3]

Okay done. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430729-Occult-Adventures)

[Milo v3]

Gencon rather than paizocon but a new AP has been announced called Strange Aeons, from chatter it seems like it is mythos themed or something, apparently there is more information in the know direction podcasts.

[Extra Anchovies]

Gencon rather than paizocon but a new AP has been announced called Strange Aeons, from chatter it seems like it is mythos themed or something, apparently there is more information in the know direction podcasts.

Yes! Lovecraft AP! Looking forwards to trying it out when it's released.

[Sayt]

Oh man, I'ma need to pull out those Mi-go Vivisections again! I hope they bring the body chipper back.....

[Milo v3]

Again, Gencon rather than PaizoCon, but apparently a Horror Adventures RPG Line book has been announced (presumably to come after Ultimate Intrigue), though I have only seen one mention of it so far so I cannot be be 100% certain.