Charge multipliers vs crits &/or pounce

[Ken Murikumo]

Been scheming up a charger for some future scenario and it got me thinking:

Charge multipliers (like valorous or mounted w/ lance) simply double charge damage (except as noted when combined); seems like no strings attached. So how would they interact with pounce? Are all your attacks doubled? How about crits; does the "double a double is a triple" rule apply here or are we simply multiplying the doubled charge damage by the crit multiplier?

Example:
Valorous scythe + battle jump for 3x charge damage.
Say with pounce i get 3 attacks (and assume one hit is a crit). Would the 2 non-crits be 3x damage? And would the crit be x6 or x12 damage?

[AvatarVecna]

Been scheming up a charger for some future scenario and it got me thinking:

Charge multipliers (like valorous or mounted w/ lance) simply double charge damage (except as noted when combined); seems like no strings attached. So how would they interact with pounce? Are all your attacks doubled? How about crits; does the "double a double is a triple" rule apply here or are we simply multiplying the doubled charge damage by the crit multiplier?

Example:
Valorous scythe + battle jump for 3x charge damage.
Say with pounce i get 3 attacks (and assume one hit is a crit). Would the 2 non-crits be 3x damage? And would the crit be x6 or x12 damage?

Yes, all attacks in a pounce are affected as if they were the first attack of your charge. Yes, this makes pouncing chargers scary; I believe the concept is referred to as "Uberchargers" and they're fairly decent at playing the DPR game. No, they're not quite that badass that easily. The multiplication rules work thusly: any multiplier that reads "x(N)" really has the final effect of being "+(N-1)*100%"; thus, a x2 deals 200% damage, a x3 deals 300% damage, and so on. This means that, when multiple multipliers are present (like what you're doing), their additional damage percentages are added together. This is simplified into the "two doublings is a tripling" rule, but that's how it works behind the scenes. Thus, a normal Scythe deals 100% damage on a hit, and 400% damage on a crit. A Valorous Scythe deals 200% damage on a charging hit, or 500% damage on a charging crit. If the person wielding that Valorous Scythe was benefiting from the Battle Jump feat, they would deal 300% damage on a charging hit, or 600% damage on a charging crit.

I'm off to dig up and dust off one of my old ubercharger builds. I'll be back...

[Lerondiel]

Been scheming up a charger for some future scenario and it got me thinking:

PC or NPC?

If it's a PC you still suffer from all the scenarios where your charges/crits dont work...some Warblade/Swordsage for Diamond Mind defence maneuvres (not to mention Time Stands Still) can help keep you in one piece when the DM gets sick of you dropping his big brutes. :)

[Ken Murikumo]

Snip

Alright, so i think what your saying was what i thought. Basically with x3 charge and x4 crit it breaks down like thus:
charge damage: 100% (normal damage dealt) +100% +100% making +200% damage in addition to normal damage (or x3)
Crit damage following same principle: 100% (Normal damage dealt) +100%... and so on, making +300% damage in addition to normal damage (or x4)
Crit charge: 100% normal damage +200% additional charge damage +300% additional crit damage making a total of +500% bonus damage in addition to normal damage (or x6)

For the sake of clarity, My group chooses before any rolling, whether they roll all crit dice or simply multiply the result of one rolling



Snap

Probably PC. Pulling out a character that could end a player in one round would be a jerk thing to do when i DM. Also they are faaaaaar from optimized. They think they are, but they are not.

But now you bring up a new question:
Are creatures immune to crits and precision damage also immune to the bonus charge damage?
Crits and precision damage explicitly state that said creatures are immune to crit and precision damage. Also other abilities like insightful strike or assassinate always have that string of text about "creature immune to critical hits are unaffected by this ability" to specify it doesnt work on said creatures.
Well, what about bonus charge damage? The Valorous enchant simply says double damage on charge, then some info on how to stack with other charge multipliers. Same with the lance; it just says double damage on charge while mounted. Both lack that bit of restrictive text.

[AvatarVecna]

But now you bring up a new question:
Are creatures immune to crits and precision damage also immune to the bonus charge damage?
Crits and precision damage explicitly state that said creatures are immune to crit and precision damage. Also other abilities like insightful strike or assassinate always have that string of text about "creature immune to critical hits are unaffected by this ability" to specify it doesnt work on said creatures.
Well, what about bonus charge damage? The Valorous enchant simply says double damage on charge, then some info on how to stack with other charge multipliers. Same with the lance; it just says double damage on charge while mounted. Both lack that bit of restrictive text.

Yes, the bonus damage from charging is still dealt; creatures immunt to crit damage only force you to leave out the extra damage from getting a critical.

[Ken Murikumo]

So, what other charge multipliers are available?

The one i know of are:
valorous enchant
lance, while mounted
battle jump feat
and flying kick feat from OA (3.0, may have been errata-ed)

Are there more buried in the books and/or dragon magazines?

[AvatarVecna]

Spirited Charge stacks with Valorous weapon. Also, Flying Kick has been updated to 3.5; even if you use the 3.0 version, you can't use that and the Lance...unless you can somehow make a lance count as "unarmed".

Also, it's not technically a full multiplier, but PA damage multipliers are pretty common and are usually included in ubercharger builds.