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Bane-Wordsmith
2015-05-24, 03:14 AM
Humans seem to a blank canvas that a multitude of races can blend with. There's the obvious half-elves and half-orcs. But you've also got changelings, all of the plane-touched, half-celestials, half-fiends and half-dragons; How often do you see them knocking about with humans?
There are a multitude more that I could go to mention, but my point is; Dwarves, along with elves, are the most common race that humans interact with. Where are all the little interracial babies?
How are all of those out of the way races more likely to procreate than a Human/Dwarf union? And if Dwarves aren't genetically compatible, really, how is it that Orcs are? ORCS?!?

goto124
2015-05-24, 03:19 AM
To thread title: aren't they halflings?

Vrock_Summoner
2015-05-24, 03:20 AM
Why does the compatibility of orcs make the incompatibility of dwarves any less likely? It's simply a matter of species. With the demons and half/quarter/whatever-celestial dragon babies, there's magic justifying everything. But with elves and orcs... At this point, I'm assuming that they're all branches of the same species, since not only do they produce offspring, but those offspring are themselves fertile. Dwarves (and gnomes and halflings, etc.) are actually legitimately separate species, thus they can't form (viable?) offspring. I mean, without the help of additional magic, I guess. I wouldn't put anything past the wizards, they can pull off some odd stuff.

Lavranzo
2015-05-24, 03:20 AM
Well, I am sure there are a few half-dwarves, somewhere, but I believe that I'd rather have babies with a dragon (in human disguise), an angel or a succubus (or other female-ish demon) than a dwarf :P. Oh, and I do believe that orcs aren't that different from human, at least not in my campaign. In my campaign they're more like refined humans with a bit more brutish appeal and a slightly green-tinted skin. Other than that they resemble humans just as much as elves do.

BWR
2015-05-24, 03:50 AM
They're all on Athas, making names for themselves as gladiators.

hymer
2015-05-24, 03:55 AM
Speaking from a Middle-earth perspective, humans and elves are closely related. Humans and elves are mainly different from each other in soul, not in body (Tolkien goes so far as to state that they are the same species). The exact nature of orcs isn't firmly established, but their being twisted elves or humans are two of the possibilities. Any cross-breeding of orcs with other races is very poorly understood, anyway. To the extent it occurs, it's because someone made it happen, usually Sauron, but possibly Saruman in one case.
Dwarves, on the other hand, are a people very much apart. They were made by Aulë, in a fit of impatience you might say. While they were blessed by Ilúvatar to gain true life, both their bodies (made by Aulë) and their souls (with their separate after-life) are truly apart from humans and elves.

So from a meta-perspective, it's a case of 'follow the leader' that half-dwarves are comparatively rare in fantasy worlds.

Kantaki
2015-05-24, 07:45 AM
As hymer said it is pretty much Tolkiens fault. But I would add that even in mythology dwarves are rarely paired with nondwarves. For elves, the various kinds of nymphs, fae, centaurs, demons etc. you can usually find a tale or three where they show interest in humans and even have children with them. Dwarves? The only story I can think of is about Freya sleeping with four of them to gain the Brisingamen, the (magic) necklace that was associated with her. Odin forced her to start a war to punish her for this stunt but it had no consequences. And even if it had Freya wasn't human so it is kind of irrelevant.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-24, 08:35 AM
It is a little strange that they don't occur naturally. Even the muls of Dark Sun's Athas are the product of intentional crossbreeding by slavers. I guess that says a little about the perceived attractiveness and promiscuity of dwarves (i.e. - they have none).

What about half-halflings and half-kender? That would just be creepy.

Kantaki
2015-05-24, 08:51 AM
It is a little strange that they don't occur naturally. Even the muls of Dark Sun's Athas are the product of intentional crossbreeding by slavers. I guess that says a little about the perceived attractiveness and promiscuity of dwarves (i.e. - they have none).

What about half-halflings and half-kender? That would just be creepy.

Maybe it is not that others think dwarves are unattractive but they think every other race looks uglier than the dwarven god of things that are ugly.

And halflings and gnomes? They have this childlike look that stops most members other races from dating them.

zinycor
2015-05-24, 08:56 AM
Dark sun dude, they are all on Athas, and they are awesome!!!

Ralanr
2015-05-24, 09:24 AM
I wonder why it was just dark sun. Don't hear about Muls in Eberron or Forgotten realms. A DM could add them, but they aren't official.

we need more half-dwarves. Or half races that aren't half human (we have dragons and ogres, but usually a half creature that has no human is half-dragon and half-something not human.)

Cross breeding people! There's always a curious person!

Dimers
2015-05-24, 09:30 AM
I'd rather have babies with a dragon (in human disguise), an angel or a succubus (or other female-ish demon) than a dwarf :P.

Ehh, to each her own. A dwarven woman would be awesome for me -- I love breadth and sturdiness and good health in my partners. Wouldn't turn down an angel, sure, but I would worry all the time about the angel judging my imperfections. And I wouldn't trust a dragon or fiend for two seconds, and trust is necessary for a worthwhile long-term relationship. Elves would be okay, I guess, but they're so frail ... I'm a heavy guy, I don't want to worry about breaking my wife if I accidentally bump into her in the house. If I have to choose between wrestler and fencer, wrestler is the body type for me.


And halflings and gnomes? They have this childlike look that stops most members other races from dating them.

Let's not take that line of thinking even half a step farther.


Maybe it is not that others think dwarves are unattractive but they think every other race looks uglier than the dwarven god of things that are ugly.

Yup. Dwarven women might be okay with human men, but a dwarven male trying to find something attractive about a completely hairless chin? -- fuhgeddaboudit!


It is a little strange that they don't occur naturally. Even the muls of Dark Sun's Athas are the product of intentional crossbreeding by slavers.

Much like real-world mules, a half-breed that's possible but won't usually happen on its own. And like mules, muls may be mostly or completely unable to breed themselves. You want more mules, you throw more horses and donkeys at each other. A "species" that can't continue on its own isn't likely to make a big splash in literature because readers object to massive illogical consequences.

Ralanr
2015-05-24, 09:44 AM
Well half-elves and half-orcs don't exactly breed more. Only half dragons do that and it makes sorcerers.

Or it's pathfinder where Orc and elf bloodlines for sorcerers exist. I love how genetically based pathfinder can be. Based on what your ancestor did centuries ago, you could give birth to a tiefling in a family of humans!

Always humans...still better than D&D tiefling which is an entire race. In my opinion anyway, YMMV.

S_Dalsgaard
2015-05-24, 09:54 AM
Perhaps there are plenty of half-dwarves running around, but the genetic stock of dwarves are so strong, that any half-breed effectively is a dwarf, much like any person with more human than elven blood is often considered a human. In my campaign I have done something similar for half-elves. They exist, but they have the stats/benefits of either a human or an elf (whichever the player chose to be the dominant genes).

Kantaki
2015-05-24, 10:15 AM
Ehh, to each her own. A dwarven woman would be awesome for me -- I love breadth and sturdiness and good health in my partners. Wouldn't turn down an angel, sure, but I would worry all the time about the angel judging my imperfections. And I wouldn't trust a dragon or fiend for two seconds, and trust is necessary for a worthwhile long-term relationship. Elves would be okay, I guess, but they're so frail ... I'm a heavy guy, I don't want to worry about breaking my wife if I accidentally bump into her in the house. If I have to choose between wrestler and fencer, wrestler is the body type for me.

I won't comment on the attractiveness of dwarves compared to other races. Can't argue about taste after all. But not trusting Dragons or fiends? Why not? I mean sure I would decide this on from case to case but even the denizens of the lower planes and the giant lizards can't be judged only by their species. Same goes for angels and anything else with an always x label. As long as the gal is nice, more or less good looking and wants to be with me why should I about her species?

But back on Topic the easiest explanations for the question why there are no half-dwarves are that they are not compatible with other races, there is no attraction between dwarves and other races and no one saw a point in creating them. Excluding worlds where they exist of course.

@ Ralanr: But at least half elves do procreate. Elrond had children and at least Arwen had some as well. While neither had an halfelven Partner (Well, Aragorn had elvish blood) it does not seem unreasonable that two halfelves/ halforcs could have children that cound as halfbloods as well.

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-24, 10:42 AM
Maybe there are no half-breeds because the races can't breed. So now you know why elven queens kidnap teenage boys. :smalltongue:

Maybe, to serious, Dwarves are a half-breed? A mixture of gnome and human blood, so that mixing with humans or gnomes just gives something close enough to either race.

I still want to play a half elf half orc, where the noble orc whisked the savage elf away to his beautiful city and fell in love with her (I prefer to include civilised orcs to 'tribal orcs'), or the human child of two half breeds.

Zaydos
2015-05-24, 10:53 AM
Races of Ansalon (3.5 Dragonlance) has half-dwarves (they suck and are just dwarves with no racial ability modifiers, human land speed, and all the numbers halved... except the combat bonuses which are lost entirely). I don't know if they were actually in the books or 2e though. Apparently back in 2e there was a Forgotten Realm supplement on dwarves (Dwarves Deep) which stated that they do exist they are just functionally identical to humans or dwarves.

And I'd actually say gnomes are more likely to be a half-breed than dwarves. They're dwarves, except smaller, frailer, and more effeminate, and with some almost elven magical talent... they are obviously the blasphemous result of ancient dwarf-elf marriages and the current hatred between the two races is actually just a cultural custody battle for the gnomes.

Edit: On half-elf breeding the 2e Complete Book of Elves stated that 2 half-elves produced a half-elf, a half-elf and a human produced a human, and a half-elf and an elf produced an elf (specifically it was if you are less than 50% elf you're human, if you are 50% or more but less than 100% elf you're a half-elf). Also in Eberron half-elves are a true breeding species originally descended from human and elf intermarriage, iirc (Eberron is not my forte).

Kantaki
2015-05-24, 11:04 AM
Maybe there are no half-breeds because the races can't breed. So now you know why elven queens kidnap teenage boys. :smalltongue:

Maybe, to serious, Dwarves are a half-breed? A mixture of gnome and human blood, so that mixing with humans or gnomes just gives something close enough to either race.

I still want to play a half elf half orc, where the noble orc whisked the savage elf away to his beautiful city and fell in love with her (I prefer to include civilised orcs to 'tribal orcs'), or the human child of two half breeds.

I think the Dark Eye had Orc-Elf hybrids (Holberker or something like that) but the Explanation for them was something really odd and all I remember is that it involved Nahema the resident Mary Sue (casting while wearing chainmail the little...) messing with the Situation.

Dwarves as half-gnomes? That is an interesting idea. But aren't they a little bit too different from the parent races?

Grim Portent
2015-05-24, 11:51 AM
As hymer said it is pretty much Tolkiens fault. But I would add that even in mythology dwarves are rarely paired with nondwarves. For elves, the various kinds of nymphs, fae, centaurs, demons etc. you can usually find a tale or three where they show interest in humans and even have children with them. Dwarves? The only story I can think of is about Freya sleeping with four of them to gain the Brisingamen, the (magic) necklace that was associated with her. Odin forced her to start a war to punish her for this stunt but it had no consequences. And even if it had Freya wasn't human so it is kind of irrelevant.

It's possible the Norse mythology kept the origins of dwarves in mind when considering half-breeds. Gods and giants interbred frequently, but they were ultimately of similar origins, the dwarves and humans arose from maggots and swaet respectively, so while it makes some sense for the former two to be able breed with each other it wouldn't make any sense for the latter two to be able to breed with each other.

Assuming the Norse knew you couldn't cross-breed most animals they may have applied a similar idea to their folktales.

Hawkstar
2015-05-24, 11:55 AM
Humans seem to a blank canvas that a multitude of races can blend with. There's the obvious half-elves and half-orcs. But you've also got changelings, all of the plane-touched, half-celestials, half-fiends and half-dragons; How often do you see them knocking about with humans?
There are a multitude more that I could go to mention, but my point is; Dwarves, along with elves, are the most common race that humans interact with. Where are all the little interracial babies?Dwarves stick to dwarves - violating that is worse than bestiality.


How are all of those out of the way races more likely to procreate than a Human/Dwarf union? And if Dwarves aren't genetically compatible, really, how is it that Orcs are? ORCS?!?Luthic made Orcs able to breed with almost anything, to:
1. Increase orc numbers in the names of Gruumsh and Luthic.
2. Increase the horror of rape at the hands of an orc.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-24, 12:02 PM
Apparently there is at least some inter-species attraction. Like that awkward subplot in the Hobbit movies with the completely non-canon elf woman (Tauriel?) and the captive dwarf?

As much as I love looking at Evangeline Lily, that was just weird.

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-24, 12:07 PM
And I'd actually say gnomes are more likely to be a half-breed than dwarves. They're dwarves, except smaller, frailer, and more effeminate, and with some almost elven magical talent... they are obviously the blasphemous result of ancient dwarf-elf marriages and the current hatred between the two races is actually just a cultural custody battle for the gnomes.

Makes sense, I was just trying to give a decent reason for no half dwarf half sex crazed monkey crossbreeds, and it seemed like a decent enough explanation if you were willing to redesign rock gnomes or the like. I'm far more likely to have gnomes be the half-breeds though, and make them human/dwarf (change their magical ability to be anything and give them free skill focus and it works alright, or at least as well as 4e half-elves).


I think the Dark Eye had Orc-Elf hybrids (Holberker or something like that) but the Explanation for them was something really odd and all I remember is that it involved Nahema the resident Mary Sue (casting while wearing chainmail the little...) messing with the Situation.

Eww, number one reason I wouldn't sleep with fantasy women, they have no fashion sense. Secondly, is elves and orcs just too much to imagine? It makes as more sense than half dragons.


Dwarves as half-gnomes? That is an interesting idea. But aren't they a little bit too different from the parent races?

If I was doing that I'd significantly rework at least one race, maybe humans.

Kantaki
2015-05-24, 12:24 PM
Apparently there is at least some inter-species attraction. Like that awkward subplot in the Hobbit movies with the completely non-canon elf woman (Tauriel?) and the captive dwarf?

As much as I love looking at Evangeline Lily, that was just weird.

Well you can't argue about taste, but I think those two are more or less an exeption from the norm. After all the movie needed an romance subplot, every movie needs one. Even if you have to mangle the source story to include it. Especially if you have to do so.

@Anonymouswizard: The problem with Nahema is that she is an human maga who used lost time magic to make herself immortal (the lesser problem since the PCs can theoretically do the same) and can cast while wearing chainmail with shouldn't be possible due to iron -and many other metals- blocking magic. The question how this looks is her problem.

Lord Raziere
2015-05-24, 12:38 PM
the problem with a half-dwarf though is um....

it'd basically look like a human. but with more muscles and beard in the case of men, and just more muscles in case of women.

so how could possibly tell the difference between a normal human who works out a lot and a half-dwarf? there could be lots of half-dwarves and we'd never notice because they'd all pretty much look like normal fantasy vikings or whatever. with half-elves, at least you have the "pointed ear" thing to let you know, but with Half-Dwarves, its like, is the result even something thats separate from normal humanity? its arguable that humans are just tall dwarves.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-24, 12:43 PM
its arguable that humans are just tall dwarves.

Dire Dwarves?

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-24, 12:49 PM
Well you can't argue about taste, but I think those two are more or less an exeption from the norm. After all the movie needed an romance subplot, every movie needs one. Even if you have to mangle the source story to include it. Especially if you have to do so.

Because all the great films had random romances, like The Dam Busters.


@Anonymouswizard: The problem with Nahema is that she is an human maga who used lost time magic to make herself immortal (the lesser problem since the PCs can theoretically do the same) and can cast while wearing chainmail with shouldn't be possible due to iron -and many other metals- blocking magic. The question how this looks is her problem.

It's even worse than I feared! She is a Mary Sue!

To be serious, I have no problem with iconic characters managing impossible feats, as it just sets the tone that the PCs are expected to do the same level of impossible feats (although that gives me an idea for a Scion game where Magic and Prophecy are lost purviews, which get rediscovered over the course of the cycle). But I'm not fond of characters breaking rules that PCs just can't circumvent (to go back to Scion, I plan to have a Hero-level NPC who can channel health boons without Relics. Turns out that he performed the 'self sacrifice' version where the permanent loss of his physical health counts as an appropriate relic), the PCs should be able to, with time and effort, be able to bend any rule that can be bent, although not every rule.

Maybe it's magical ironwood chainmail (aka the 3.X druid metal solution), or would that make too much sense?

Lord Raziere
2015-05-24, 12:49 PM
Dire Dwarves?

No. just tall ones. we've got an entire industries devoted to making beer, we're a stamina-based race, our response to threats in the past have been to send in the muscle-armed men in with heaviest weapons we can make, we have an innate desire for gold and money, when we didn't make technology we made vast monolithic stone buildings all to honor one ruler or another, and our society as a whole is full of stubborn argumentative people.

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-24, 12:57 PM
No. just tall ones. we've got an entire industries devoted to making beer, we're a stamina-based race, our response to threats in the past have been to send in the muscle-armed men in with heaviest weapons we can make, we have an innate desire for gold and money, when we didn't make technology we made vast monolithic stone buildings all to honor one ruler or another, and our society as a whole is full of stubborn argumentative people.

...thank you for making the argument for dwarves being half human better than I could...

Honest Tiefling
2015-05-24, 01:04 PM
Forgotten Realms actually has a race of Dwarves that has I believe, Azer blood in them. They are pretty rare and I believe only a single clan. And I completely and utterly forget their name. So breeding between outsiders and dwarves has been mentioned at least once.

And in pathfinder, technically speaking, there is absolutely nothing stopping a player from making a tiefling dwarf, just that the stats do not change.

Lord Raziere
2015-05-24, 01:06 PM
...thank you for making the argument for dwarves being half human better than I could...

lastly, if this forum is any indication, we seem to have a universal hatred of elves. I mean if I had a had dollar for every nerd that ever said that they hate elves in fantasy and how they're a mary sue race, I'd be rich.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-24, 01:11 PM
No. just tall ones. we've got an entire industries devoted to making beer, we're a stamina-based race, our response to threats in the past have been to send in the muscle-armed men in with heaviest weapons we can make, we have an innate desire for gold and money, when we didn't make technology we made vast monolithic stone buildings all to honor one ruler or another, and our society as a whole is full of stubborn argumentative people.

Awesome. I can get down with this hypothesis.


Forgotten Realms actually has a race of Dwarves that has I believe, Azer blood in them. They are pretty rare and I believe only a single clan. And I completely and utterly forget their name. So breeding between outsiders and dwarves has been mentioned at least once.


Durzagons are half duergar and half devil. But devils can crossbreed with pretty much anything, including plants, animals, and vermin, so it's not a slam dunk argument.

Honest Tiefling
2015-05-24, 01:15 PM
I was actually thinking of the Azerkyn, now that I stopped being lazy. I was just trying to point out that there are some plane touched dwarven guys, which makes things even weirder unless people on fire are somehow more fertile then a dwarf.

Hawkstar
2015-05-24, 01:15 PM
... I think humans are Half-Dwarf/Half-Halfling, with a math error making us extra-large (Sort of like how Ligers and Tigons are bigger than Tigers and Lions).
I was actually thinking of the Azerkyn, now that I stopped being lazy. I was just trying to point out that there are some plane touched dwarven guys, which makes things even weirder unless people on fire are somehow more fertile then a dwarf.
Of course they are! Have you seen how hot dudes on fire are!?

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-24, 01:18 PM
lastly, if this forum is any indication, we seem to have a universal hatred of elves. I mean if I had a had dollar for every nerd that ever said that they hate elves in fantasy and how they're a mary sue race, I'd be rich.

I used to like elves, then I played in a pathfinder game that included 3 elves, 2 half-elves, and a human. I left for a game of Unknown Armies because it made more sense, and I've since hated elves for secretly being the race with the highest population (they keep them behind the sofa). In short, I'm not against elves, I just think that they are overused as a player choice (which is why one of my settings only allows humans as PCs, while having absolutely no humanoid mythological creatures).

I went back to the pathfinder game to discover a new player had taken over my human fighter, so I rolled up a half-orc sorcerer. The elven wizard then proceed to use no spells that didn't fry my summons (my one third level spell was summon monster 3). All the elves were alive, because my character had been the only front line melee fighter.

I strangely have less of a problem with Shadowrun, but in that case half the group was elves, and then we had a human, a dwarf, and a troll (later an ork after the troll's player quit), so it was easier on my fragile little mind. My players know that my general response to an elf is 'somebody has to die first' by now, making fun at every system giving elves slightly less survivability in some way (and how the only PC who died in that campaign was an elf who decided to duel an ork with a claymore, the only time I've had an enemy two hit kill a PC).

Kantaki
2015-05-24, 01:37 PM
Because all the great films had random romances, like The Dam Busters.



It's even worse than I feared! She is a Mary Sue!

To be serious, I have no problem with iconic characters managing impossible feats, as it just sets the tone that the PCs are expected to do the same level of impossible feats (although that gives me an idea for a Scion game where Magic and Prophecy are lost purviews, which get rediscovered over the course of the cycle). But I'm not fond of characters breaking rules that PCs just can't circumvent (to go back to Scion, I plan to have a Hero-level NPC who can channel health boons without Relics. Turns out that he performed the 'self sacrifice' version where the permanent loss of his physical health counts as an appropriate relic), the PCs should be able to, with time and effort, be able to bend any rule that can be bent, although not every rule.

Maybe it's magical ironwood chainmail (aka the 3.X druid metal solution), or would that make too much sense?

Re Nahema: (relevant part bolded)

I think the Dark Eye had Orc-Elf hybrids (Holberker or something like that) but the Explanation for them was something really odd and all I remember is that it involved Nahema the resident Mary Sue (casting while wearing chainmail the little...) messing with the Situation.

I am pretty sure it is a regular chainmail shirt. From everything I know about her she was the the pet NPC (Ex-PC?) of one of the creators of Das Schwarze Auge (the Dark Eye) and didn't want the Players to attack her. Exept for the casting in chainmail thing most things can to a certain degree replicated by the PC. You know the great mystery where all those mix-and-match Monsters come from? DSA has an spell that can do it. (Chimaeroform is a must have spell for all crazy mages.) And if you want to wear proper armor as a spell caster? You need either Irian leather armor (as good as some metal armor) with is very expensive or hardwood armor from Maraskan with is only found on the lokal version of Australia

On Topic: Humans are clearly dwarf elf crossbreeds. They just call themself human because neither Dwelf nor Zwelf sound very good. I mean those crazy pointy ears might be fine being named like a number but they are crazy.

Zaydos
2015-05-24, 02:27 PM
On Topic: Humans are clearly dwarf elf crossbreeds. They just call themself human because neither Dwelf nor Zwelf sound very good. I mean those crazy pointy ears might be fine being named like a number but they are crazy.

I've actually ran with this as a concept for a world before. Think I never ended up running it though (or it ended up relegated to background fluff that was never mentioned in game).

Ettina
2015-05-24, 02:57 PM
Perhaps there are plenty of half-dwarves running around, but the genetic stock of dwarves are so strong, that any half-breed effectively is a dwarf, much like any person with more human than elven blood is often considered a human. In my campaign I have done something similar for half-elves. They exist, but they have the stats/benefits of either a human or an elf (whichever the player chose to be the dominant genes).

Genetics doesn't work that way. It's not one single gene that makes the difference between two species, it's many. And it would be really staggeringly unlikely for every single species-specific allele for one species to be dominant over the other species' alleles.

Now, real life 'dwarfism' often is due to single genes. But they aren't a genetically distinct population, just mutant humans. Plus, the dwarfism condition that most closely resembles the traditional depiction of dwarves (achondroplasia) is a dominant genetic trait with a lethal homozygous phenotype, so two people with achondroplasia producing children would produce 50% kids with achondroplasia, 25% normal kids and 25% kids with a lethal form of achondroplasia.

Honest Tiefling
2015-05-24, 03:04 PM
I think at the point people are mashing their squishy bits against people made out of literal fire, real-life genetics is in the corner crying because clearly no one is paying attention to it.

Gritmonger
2015-05-24, 03:19 PM
...
What about half-halflings...
Wouldn't those be "quarterlings?" Or "three-fourthlings?"

veti
2015-05-24, 03:25 PM
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Umli (http://merp.wikia.com/wiki/Umli) yet.

Half-dwarves are a thing in any setting of mine that includes full dwarves.

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-24, 03:28 PM
Re Nahema: (relevant part bolded)


I am pretty sure it is a regular chainmail shirt. From everything I know about her she was the the pet NPC (Ex-PC?) of one of the creators of Das Schwarze Auge (the Dark Eye) and didn't want the Players to attack her. Exept for the casting in chainmail thing most things can to a certain degree replicated by the PC. You know the great mystery where all those mix-and-match Monsters come from? DSA has an spell that can do it. (Chimaeroform is a must have spell for all crazy mages.) And if you want to wear proper armor as a spell caster? You need either Irian leather armor (as good as some metal armor) with is very expensive or hardwood armor from Maraskan with is only found on the lokal version of Australia.

Sorry, was just explaining why I hate these sort of pet NPCs.

Ralanr
2015-05-24, 03:47 PM
Forgotten Realms actually has a race of Dwarves that has I believe, Azer blood in them. They are pretty rare and I believe only a single clan. And I completely and utterly forget their name. So breeding between outsiders and dwarves has been mentioned at least once.

And in pathfinder, technically speaking, there is absolutely nothing stopping a player from making a tiefling dwarf, just that the stats do not change.

But which stats? Tiefling or Dwarf?

Honest Tiefling
2015-05-24, 03:58 PM
But which stats? Tiefling or Dwarf?

I think in Pathfinder, they use the Tiefling stats, but can be part Dwarf instead of human. (Not PFS legal, I think).

Of course, there's oodles of lineage and heritage feats one can access in 3.5/Pathfinder to also make a dwarf with whatever heritage.

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-24, 04:06 PM
I think in Pathfinder, they use the Tiefling stats, but can be part Dwarf instead of human. (Not PFS legal, I think).

Of course, there's oodles of lineage and heritage feats one can access in 3.5/Pathfinder to also make a dwarf with whatever heritage.

So what do I need for a dwarf with dwarf heritage? :smalltongue:

hiryuu
2015-05-24, 04:37 PM
In real-world genetics, species relationships are complex - one species may be able to create interfertile hybrids with one species but not another - and there may be species that can create interfertile offspring with either of those species. This happens in the real world a lot; there's a really good example of this running up the Pacific coast with species of the Ensanita salamander genus.

To put it succinctly: in the real world, "species" is a nested continuum with a wide variety of variants that may or may not be fertile with one another. There could easily be three species, and elves could breed with humans and humans could breed with orcs but elves and orcs couldn't produce offspring and it's perfectly well within our knowledge of the way cladistics works.

Why no half-dwarves? Because they're just divergent enough that it doesn't work.

Of course, if you wanted to, you could punch one up - there's a lot of good options in this thread so far - and a D&D setting doesn't really have a cladistics we would understand.

eleazzaar
2015-05-24, 10:07 PM
As hymer said it is pretty much Tolkiens fault. But I would add that even in mythology dwarves are rarely paired with nondwarves.
You can't really reference mythology. There's no coherent line between elves, dwarves, gnomes etc. All those fay got jumbled up together. Different names for the creature will be used for the same story told in different regions, and so forth.

If you go back to the Scandinavian oldest sources, it is not at all clear that elves and dwarves were different thing, nor how exactly they differed from each other or humans.

Tolkien created the entities we now know as elves, dwarves, orcs, and hobbits. And while elves and dwarves have pre-Tolkein names, and draw vaguely on older sources, They are thoroughly reinvented.

Lord Raziere
2015-05-24, 10:11 PM
Why no half-dwarves? Because they're just divergent enough that it doesn't work.


Wrong, just the opposite: they're so close to humans that they're not actually different from humanity aside from the shortness- elves are more different than them. elf + human = half elf. human + dwarf = human, because they're basically the same.

Zaydos
2015-05-24, 10:30 PM
Dwarves have a greater amount of mass than a human, despite being 2 feet shorter. Their body proportions are also different as they have arms the same length as human arms (Races of Stone) and proportionately longer legs. In addition to this they have a great resistance to poison and magic and the ability to see in absolute darkness. Their features are also relatively blocky and heavily lined.

Elves have slightly better senses, pointy ears, and a range of size that is almost wholly included among human sizes.

No dwarves really are a lot more different than humans physically than elves. Give a slight built human pointy ears and they could pass as an elf. Shrink a human 2 feet, even if you didn't shrink them any way but vertically and they would look nothing like a dwarf even if they were the most bearded of barbarians.

The answer that dwarves are not traditionally attractive is the most likely answer as to why, but in universe dwarves are much more divergent from humans than orcs or elves. They are closer to gnomes (who they are implied to have interbred with resulting in gully dwarves... but in that setting there are half-dwarves), and it is worth noting that mind flayers have traditionally been able to cerebromorphose elves, humans, goblinoids, and orcs but not dwarves. Parasites and parasitoids tend to be very selective in the species they will infect which provides further support for dwarves being more distant from humans than elves (besides the significantly larger physical differences). Also Dark Sun is right that a half-dwarf would probably kill a human mother in child birth so not the best pairing.

Of course going back to mythological roots elves and dwarves were separate (elves were literally part light) it is dark elves which might have been identical to dwarves. Then again dwarves were literally made from maggots and looked like pale, ugly people (old art work shows them as human proportions).

All said however I've posted half-dwarves as a race at about 3 places on these forums, and like them as a concept/race.

TheCountAlucard
2015-05-25, 05:37 AM
we need more… half races that aren't half human (we have dragons and ogres, but usually a half creature that has no human is half-dragon and half-something not human.)Actually a recurring Big Bad in a game of mine was a half-red dragon ogre with a Strength of about 50. The PCs absolutely hated him because he was on a quest to get the same artifact that the PCs were after.


lastly, if this forum is any indication, we seem to have a universal hatred of elves. I mean if I had a had dollar for every nerd that ever said that they hate elves in fantasy and how they're a mary sue race, I'd be rich.To be fair, it's hard not to hate Paolini elves. :smalltongue:

Still, just using this site's search function shows that out of the 14,000,000+ posts here, only 87 of them contained the words "hate," "elf," and "Mary Sue." Even if every one of those posts was by a different person and none of them were replies to the elf-haters or people complaining about elf-haters, out of the 96,931 members here, that's a tiny fraction of a fraction of a percent. I suppose you could eat at a nice restaurant.

If we assume, generously, that literally the entire world's human population holds the same opinions as this one D&D-centric web-forum, and you were getting a dollar from every single elf-hater out there, it'd only net you a few million dollars. More realistically your numbers would be further squashed by those who neither know nor care about elves, and those who don't speak English and/or lack the familiarity with TVTropes or fanfiction necessary to call out elves as Mary Sues.

I suppose you still might consider ~$300,000 "rich," but you still wouldn't be taking Russian ballet dancers out on your yacht like Bruce Wayne in The Dark Knight. Depending on where you live that might not even be enough to buy a house.

Feddlefew
2015-05-25, 05:58 AM
5e has the stout halfling subrace, which, if I remember correctly, are implied to be the decedents of dwarf/halfing unions.

hiryuu
2015-05-25, 09:54 AM
Wrong, just the opposite: they're so close to humans that they're not actually different from humanity aside from the shortness- elves are more different than them. elf + human = half elf. human + dwarf = human, because they're basically the same.

That is certainly a possibility - though I don't see how my statement could be "wrong" when we're talking about speculative (and alt-physics) biology >_>

Though to be perfectly honest, of the idea that if you're going to make another "race," it ought to be wildly different than humans in body plan.

Zaydos
2015-05-25, 11:07 AM
5e has the stout halfling subrace, which, if I remember correctly, are implied to be the decedents of dwarf/halfing unions.

Stouts were in the Lord of the Rings as well (trying to remember if Frodo's parents were noted as being such), MERP hinted they might be part dwarf, 2e also included them and tallfellows (also from LotR) as potentially part dwarven and part elven halflings retrospectively.

Also on the elves as mary sues I got soured by the Complete Book of Elves which could also be described as the Complete Book of Elves are Better than You. That said I feel sorry for elves, the Complete Book of Dwarves and the Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings

Feddlefew
2015-05-25, 09:35 PM
That is certainly a possibility - though I don't see how my statement could be "wrong" when we're talking about speculative (and alt-physics) biology >_>

Though to be perfectly honest, of the idea that if you're going to make another "race," it ought to be wildly different than humans in body plan.

I've been running on the assumption that the other PC races are human like because humans are the Ur-species.

hiryuu
2015-05-26, 01:01 AM
I've been running on the assumption that the other PC races are human like because humans are the Ur-species.

That's also a possibility - and I like that one. Honestly, this is the kind of thing that would vary with setting.

Now I need an Opabinia avatar >_>

Zaydos
2015-05-26, 01:10 AM
I've been running on the assumption that the other PC races are human like because humans are the Ur-species.

Ah the Star Trek explanation... ok not quite the Star Trek one (which had humans as just one of the species descended from one of the 3ish species that claimed to be the ur-species), but still a fun and classic one.

Guran
2015-05-26, 02:38 AM
Aren't the 4e Mul basicly dwarf-human hybrids?

Lurkmoar
2015-05-26, 02:53 AM
Stouts were in the Lord of the Rings as well (trying to remember if Frodo's parents were noted as being such), MERP hinted they might be part dwarf, 2e also included them and tallfellows (also from LotR) as potentially part dwarven and part elven halflings retrospectively.

Also on the elves as mary sues I got soured by the Complete Book of Elves which could also be described as the Complete Book of Elves are Better than You. That said I feel sorry for elves, the Complete Book of Dwarves and the Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings

Here's the video apology of the writer for the Complete Book of Elves. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwDWx1cAqP4) It's not quite a sincere apology, but it is worth watching. There's also a part 2 to his apology. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoi1tvqzMaI)

It's been a while since I looked through the Complete Book of Dwares, they didn't have anything in there about cross breeding? And though it's been mentioned before: Muls of Athas. Another reason I love the setting.

Zaydos
2015-05-26, 03:12 AM
Here's the video apology of the writer for the Complete Book of Elves. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwDWx1cAqP4) It's not quite a sincere apology, but it is worth watching. There's also a part 2 to his apology. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoi1tvqzMaI)

It's been a while since I looked through the Complete Book of Dwares, they didn't have anything in there about cross breeding? And though it's been mentioned before: Muls of Athas. Another reason I love the setting.

Those are humorous, and how did I not realize he wrote the Blood Wars box set? Really while the kits were problematic (even as a child I could tell that the kits had stronger advantages than most [more bonus proficiencies] and less painful disadvantages than most even for RP disadvantages). The real thing was that every bit of it was 'here are how elves are better than they were previously' compared to Complete Book of Dwarves which had 'here is this new option which is a trade off' and kits with a mix of bonus and required proficiencies and the fluff was equally problematic (though I was a kid so the supremacist part probably went over my head... except that I always come back to writing elves as racial supremacists and blame it on Complete Book of Elves) with the Complete Book of Dwarves instilling an abiding love of the race (note I'm running a dwarf only campaign on these forums directly inspired by the campaigns part in the CBoD) and making me want to get the one of elves because if my 2nd favorite demihuman race was so cool then my favorite had to be even more awesome... instead I found that I liked the Bladesinger and that was about it (did I mention, child, not really judging on the game balance). That said... seriously he wrote Hellbound? That was one of my favorite Planescape supplements (i.e. favorite supplements based purely on flavor and fluff). Seriously I've been making Elder Evils in one thread and I just keep cribbing stuff from it and... Guide to Hell and Planescape in general. I am confused by this, though. Also really need to track down and play Torment.

Also yes Muls are one of many reasons that Athas is in my top 3 D&D settings (Planescape is top, with a noted love of the idea of running a Blood War campaign because... how is that written by the same person as CBoE?).

Lorsa
2015-05-26, 04:23 AM
I think the dwarf gene is so strong that any matings between humans and dwarves simply produces another dwarf. Go dwarves!

LibraryOgre
2015-05-26, 10:48 AM
What about half-halflings and half-kender? That would just be creepy.

The Tales II series included Tarli Half-Kender, a half-kender who had trained as a cleric and as a knight.


I wonder why it was just dark sun. Don't hear about Muls in Eberron or Forgotten realms. A DM could add them, but they aren't official.

Dwarves Deep, the 2e Forgotten Realms dwarf supplement, explicitly mentioned half-dwarves. At the time, dwarven women were less likely to be fertile, and human women who would live among the dwarves and reproduce with them were particularly honored. Their offspring were considered dwarves in all statistics.


Well half-elves and half-orcs don't exactly breed more. Only half dragons do that and it makes sorcerers.


Deepingdale in the Forgotten Realms contains a fairly decent population of 2nd and higher generation half-elves. At least one elf who refused the Retreat was noted as having a number of half elven offspring, grandchildren, and even further generations.

Ralanr
2015-05-26, 10:59 AM
The Tales II series included Tarli Half-Kender, a half-kender who had trained as a cleric and as a knight.



Dwarves Deep, the 2e Forgotten Realms dwarf supplement, explicitly mentioned half-dwarves. At the time, dwarven women were less likely to be fertile, and human women who would live among the dwarves and reproduce with them were particularly honored. Their offspring were considered dwarves in all statistics.



Deepingdale in the Forgotten Realms contains a fairly decent population of 2nd and higher generation half-elves. At least one elf who refused the Retreat was noted as having a number of half elven offspring, grandchildren, and even further generations.

Really? Cool. I'm only running as far back as pathfinder basics, so there's a lot I'm missing.

Lurkmoar
2015-05-26, 06:19 PM
Also yes Muls are one of many reasons that Athas is in my top 3 D&D settings (Planescape is top, with a noted love of the idea of running a Blood War campaign because... how is that written by the same person as CBoE?).

Listening between the lines, he let fanboyism take control and made the Elves even more awesome because he was enarmored with them. Also, he was 22, so I'd imagine that being young in charge of a project for the first time might have had something to do with it. My old art teacher always told me that every artist has about a thousand or more bad works in them that they need to purge out of their system and never let them see the light of day... but of course, they still pop out quite frequently.

VoxRationis
2015-05-27, 03:10 PM
I hear you about anti-sueism with regards to elves, Lord Raziere. Have you taken a look at the World-Building section of the forum? Every setting seems to have run so far away from the "elves are perfect" cliche that "elves are bastards" has become a new, equally tired, cliche.

I usually just assume that most of the humanoid races are too far apart genetically to produce viable offspring. Human, elves, and orcs are probably just subspecies—in one of my settings, I reasoned that elf/orc was compatible because both half-elves and half-orcs exist, but because elves and orcs are farther apart, the offspring were rare, sickly, and less viable. (I also reasoned that because the viability was so low, any existing elf-orc crossbreeds were probably the result of multiple "tries," and thus of long-term relationships.)

Lord Raziere
2015-05-27, 03:33 PM
I hear you about anti-sueism with regards to elves, Lord Raziere. Have you taken a look at the World-Building section of the forum? Every setting seems to have run so far away from the "elves are perfect" cliche that "elves are bastards" has become a new, equally tired, cliche.


Eh, I have my own setting on there. the elves there are more complex, with three different social classes, really its only the nobility of the elves that are the real bastards, the middle elves and low elves are just like, normal guys. and the high elves are pretty much all Fair-Folk wannabes anyways. because the elves in my setting are specifically designed to be fallen Fair Folk whom all the real Fair Folk don't really care about, while the High Elves are basically classist to the other elves. I made it so that even elves don't like elves, because they're either a Low Elf that isn't pure enough to deserve to be an elf, or a High Elf thats too caught up in being a pure elf to be a good person. which is all moot anyways, because even the High Elves have some human blood in them. a pure elf is a Fair Folk straight out the grim faerie tales.

because why should arrogant elitist beliefs in your own superiority because you were born a certain way stop at racism? My elves add in classism just for that authentic medieval nobility feel.

Cealocanth
2015-05-31, 10:47 AM
There's a few answers to this question, as presented by various settings.

By Tolkien:
- Dwarves and elves are different races created by different deities than humans. They are essentially part of nature and are quite distant from the way the world actually works. This is why, for the most part, the dwarves stay in ther holes and the elves stay in their trees and it takes a monumental effort to get them to actually work to make a difference in the world. Humans are the only 'get things done' race, except for hobbits, and regardless, none of the races actually interbreed.

By most D&D settings:
- Most races are actually related, yet significantly different species than humans. Humans and elves can interbreed by some biological fluke, and devils/demons/dragons can interbreed with humans because of magic, but they shouldn't otherwise naturally be able to. Humans and dwarves for some reason or another do not produce offspring usually, and if they do the offspring does not survive to adulthood. We are actively ignoring the fact that if dragons and humans can interbreed through magic, then dwarves and humans should be able to too.

By most alternate settings:
- The various races are just that: races. Humans and dwarves do interbreed, producing half-dwarves, just like you can produce half-elves, half-gnomes, half-pixie-devilish-draconic-infernal-humans, etc. All racial differences are handled by templates. By Dark Sun, half-dwarves are infertile, but still useful as a slave race and thus quite common.

Edit: What could be interesting is a setting in which the various races are presented as a "ring species", in which, due to geographical differences, mostly, that while a chain of species may be able to interbreed with the adjacents, the ends of the chain cannot. It could be something along the lines of elementals - dwarf - beastmen - orc - human - elf - halfling - gnome - fae - infernals, so you could have elemental/dwarves, human/orcs, human/elves, and even fae/infernals, but not human/dwarves.

LibraryOgre
2015-05-31, 11:17 AM
Edit: What could be interesting is a setting in which the various races are presented as a "ring species", in which, due to geographical differences, mostly, that while a chain of species may be able to interbreed with the adjacents, the ends of the chain cannot. It could be something along the lines of elementals - dwarf - beastmen - orc - human - elf - halfling - gnome - fae - infernals, so you could have elemental/dwarves, human/orcs, human/elves, and even fae/infernals, but not human/dwarves.

In AD&D, that was to some extent already true; humans could breed with elves and orcs, but orcs could not breed with elves.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-31, 12:20 PM
We are actively ignoring the fact that if dragons and humans can interbreed through magic, then dwarves and humans should be able to too.


The interfertility in 3.x is mind-boggling. Halfbreed hybrid templates exist for producing offspring with trolls, ogres and giants, ghouls and vampires, satyrs and nymphs, elementals and genies.

There's even a half-minotaur template -- shouldn't that be 1/4 cow template if a minotaur itself is already half-human/half-bull? And is a centaur just a half-horse/half-human(oid) offspring that now breeds true?

If you can suspend your disbelief long enough to imagine that something like a fire elemental or a ghoul would ever even make the attempt to procreate with a human, it's extremely strange that dwarf/human hybrids are so rare.

Hawkstar
2015-05-31, 12:25 PM
If you can suspend your disbelief long enough to imagine that something like a fire elemental or a ghoul would ever even make the attempt to procreate with a human, it's extremely strange that dwarf/human hybrids are so rare.

The answer is actually quite simple - Moradin does not approve of imperfection. The races are created to be perfect as they are (Especially the one he created). He has nothing against Human/Dwarf pairings, but you don't put an R1A Oil Pump Cover on a 5A2 Oil Pump Body, no matter how functional the R1A and 5A2 oil pumps are on their own.

Lord Raziere
2015-05-31, 12:34 PM
just saying again:

What would half-dwarves look like, that wouldn't just be a very muscular, wide hairy human? half-elves at least have the pointed ear thing. the only place where they do exist is Dark Sun, and they're all completely bald, because dwarves are bald in that setting.

and I'm not saying this because I don't want to play one or anything, but its only the race where I truly don't see any difference from normal humanity to justify being separate even in the rubber-forehead aliens way. to make a half-dwarf that is worthy of being its own hybrid race, you got to change your dwarves to be more different from humanity first so that there is obvious visual difference half-dwarves have from humans y'know?

its like making a half-halfling: what would the difference be aside from being a somewhat shorter human? there is just no point.

(Also if you make a quarterling or dire halfling joke, you lose 100 points because I'm being serious here and have no time for unoriginal burnt out jokes that aren't funny.)

Zaydos
2015-05-31, 12:40 PM
Inhumanly broad with disproportionately longer limbs is still a much bigger difference than slightly pointed ears. You wouldn't be able to mistake a half-dwarf for a human, you would, on the other hand, be able to mistake a half-elf in a hat for a human.

I mean even Spock looks more different from a human than a half-elf, and they disguise him as a human by putting a hat on him on multiple occasions.

Though you might be able to mistake a half-dwarf for a neanderthal :smalltongue: (ok neanderthals weren't that much shorter and lack the limb proportions making them less distinct than half-dwarves would be).

Hawkstar
2015-05-31, 12:55 PM
just saying again:

What would half-dwarves look like, that wouldn't just be a very muscular, wide hairy human? half-elves at least have the pointed ear thing. the only place where they do exist is Dark Sun, and they're all completely bald, because dwarves are bald in that setting.

and I'm not saying this because I don't want to play one or anything, but its only the race where I truly don't see any difference from normal humanity to justify being separate even in the rubber-forehead aliens way. to make a half-dwarf that is worthy of being its own hybrid race, you got to change your dwarves to be more different from humanity first so that there is obvious visual difference half-dwarves have from humans y'know?

its like making a half-halfling: what would the difference be aside from being a somewhat shorter human? there is just no point.

(Also if you make a quarterling or dire halfling joke, you lose 100 points because I'm being serious here and have no time for unoriginal burnt out jokes that aren't funny.)
Half-dwarf traits? Let's see... inherent poison and magic resistance, intuitive stonework, darkvision... While the visual differences may be minimal, there would be significant mechanical differences.

Honest Tiefling
2015-05-31, 01:36 PM
Inhumanly broad with disproportionately longer limbs is still a much bigger difference than slightly pointed ears. You wouldn't be able to mistake a half-dwarf for a human, you would, on the other hand, be able to mistake a half-elf in a hat for a human.

I thought it said in the 3.5 PHB that half-elves resemble elves to human eyes? That they are supposed to be visually distinct from humans. However, I think a part of the problem is inconsistent art with the elves, that varies between 'Humans with pointed ears' to 'Hot humans with pointed ears' to 'Kill it with fire'.

Zaydos
2015-05-31, 01:45 PM
I thought it said in the 3.5 PHB that half-elves resemble elves to human eyes? That they are supposed to be visually distinct from humans. However, I think a part of the problem is inconsistent art with the elves, that varies between 'Humans with pointed ears' to 'Hot humans with pointed ears' to 'Kill it with fire'.

I was going from such things as Tanis Half-Elven (from Dragonlance) being able to pass as full human by wearing something to cover his ears (his beard didn't hurt), elves being able to pass as humans in bad lighting, and the like. With the human tendency to pick up differences over similarities, though, a half-X will always appear X to the human eye, just like they appear human to the X eye (or at least half-humans do to elves)... and now I'm having Complete Book of Elves flashbacks. The decent to good parts, but still.

Compare to having noticeably different body proportions than a human. And also actually having facial structure differences (more blocky, and rough features as opposed to fine).

Actually... a half-dwarf is more physically/visually distinct from a human than an orc (approximately the same bulk as a dwarf but human proportions), or an elf (within human range, pointy ears, slightly different facial structure).

Which lends credence to dwarves are further from humans than the other two, and elves and orcs are actually human subraces.

Anonymouswizard
2015-05-31, 01:59 PM
I was going from such things as Tanis Half-Elven (from Dragonlance) being able to pass as full human by wearing something to cover his ears (his beard didn't hurt), elves being able to pass as humans in bad lighting, and the like. With the human tendency to pick up differences over similarities, though, a half-X will always appear X to the human eye, just like they appear human to the X eye (or at least half-humans do to elves)... and now I'm having Complete Book of Elves flashbacks. The decent to good parts, but still.

Compare to having noticeably different body proportions than a human. And also actually having facial structure differences (more blocky, and rough features as opposed to fine).

Actually... a half-dwarf is more physically/visually distinct from a human than an orc (approximately the same bulk as a dwarf but human proportions), or an elf (within human range, pointy ears, slightly different facial structure).

Which lends credence to dwarves are further from humans than the other two, and elves and orcs are actually human subraces.

Why are we assuming that orcs and elves look more like humans than dwarves do, What if Dwarf McBeard looks like a standard fantasy dwarf, but Orc Pillager looks distinctly piggish or Elf Treehugger has distinctly bird/angel/deer/squirrel features?

Zaydos
2015-05-31, 02:05 PM
Why are we assuming that orcs and elves look more like humans than dwarves do, What if Dwarf McBeard looks like a standard fantasy dwarf, but Orc Pillager looks distinctly piggish or Elf Treehugger has distinctly bird/angel/deer/squirrel features?

Because we're talking D&D where Elves look like in Tolkien i.e. pretty humans, and orcs... well orcs actually have varied a lot from Pigmen to Warcraft so might look more different. Of course half-orcs have always looked like... ugly people for some reason.

MrWoodchip
2015-05-31, 09:02 PM
I think there are rules for half dwarves, or at least the likelihood of them occuring, in the unholy foul literature that is the Book of Erotic Fantasy.

Feddlefew
2015-05-31, 10:25 PM
I've been thinking... Maybe there's two, er, three distinct families of Player races in D&D 5e?

A "Tallfolk" group, consisting of Humans, Elves, Orcs, Tieflings, and their assorted hybrids, and a "Shortfolk" group consisting of Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes. So 5e Rock Gnomes are related to dwarves the same way Stout Halflings are.

Dragonborn get their own little group, obviously.

Sith_Happens
2015-06-01, 07:23 AM
"Standard" D&D does have half-dwarves. They're called bariaurs and the other half is celestial goat. I am not kidding.

Grim Portent
2015-06-01, 01:05 PM
"Standard" D&D does have half-dwarves. They're called bariaurs and the other half is celestial goat. I am not kidding.

Goats do have beards, maybe it confused the dwarven parents. :smallamused:

Cealocanth
2015-06-01, 01:24 PM
No. just tall ones. we've got an entire industries devoted to making beer, we're a stamina-based race, our response to threats in the past have been to send in the muscle-armed men in with heaviest weapons we can make, we have an innate desire for gold and money, when we didn't make technology we made vast monolithic stone buildings all to honor one ruler or another, and our society as a whole is full of stubborn argumentative people.

I like this phrasing a lot. It helps to show just how much humanity is in dwarves. Interstingly, I think you could also make a similar argument for most of the fantasy races. Elves, for example:

We are a species that exists at the pinnacle of physiological and manual dexterity. We evolved to fit the hunter lifestyle, and most early human societies will form a unity, balance, and mastery over nature. Our society grows and develops on the minds of a select few, and all innovations that are introduced are quickly incorporated into our regular lifestyle. We also tend to be mistrusting of outsiders, claiming areas and land as our own and discriminating against the other. We also tend to dehumanize those that we don't trust. We live significantly longer than most species we regularly associate with. As a society, we tend to be very reactive to problems, rather than proactive.

Orcs:
We are a species that places high values on physical strength and ability. We tend to gather together in groups and relinquish power to a single, charismatic, alpha. Human societies tend to be very mystic, attributing ourselves, our ability, and the world around us to phantom spirits and obscure ritual. Humans love war; we seek glory in it, devote our lives to the execution of it, and sometimes even deify it. All humans hold within a primal, irrational rage that developed for the purpose of combat, but often bleeds into other facets of our culture.

It would seem that the fantasy races are really just humans with more emphasis on certain parts. I believe the term for this may be 'humans with funny hats'. So in terms of interbreeding, a half-elf is a human with more dexterity and possibly intellect. A half-orc is a human with more anger and strength. A half dwarf, then, would be a relatively short human with stamina and a stubborn pride.

LibraryOgre
2015-06-01, 07:24 PM
"Standard" D&D does have half-dwarves. They're called bariaurs and the other half is celestial goat. I am not kidding.

Planescape doesn't count as standard D&D. If Planescape counts, then we might as well start talking about the dwarves of Birthright...



What would half-dwarves look like, that wouldn't just be a very muscular, wide hairy human? half-elves at least have the pointed ear thing. the only place where they do exist is Dark Sun, and they're all completely bald, because dwarves are bald in that setting.


What do half-elves look like that wouldn't be a very slender human with pointed ears and slightly odd eyes? It's pretty easy to reduce either half race to "pretty much like a human, but a bit odd."

On the other hand, they may look like Komazar (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bredthrall)... or Derro.

Lord Raziere
2015-06-01, 07:32 PM
What do half-elves look like that wouldn't be a very slender human with pointed ears and slightly odd eyes? It's pretty easy to reduce either half race to "pretty much like a human, but a bit odd."

On the other hand, they may look like Komazar (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bredthrall)... or Derro.

yeah but the pointed ears thing actually sets them apart, I still haven't seen any pictures that would satisfactorily differentiate between human and half-dwarf to me, even though I once tried googling "half dwarf". I can believe half-elves are aesthetically different, but I can't see how half-dwarves would be exactly?

LibraryOgre
2015-06-01, 07:43 PM
yeah but the pointed ears thing actually sets them apart, I still haven't seen any pictures that would satisfactorily differentiate between human and half-dwarf to me, even though I once tried googling "half dwarf". I can believe half-elves are aesthetically different, but I can't see how half-dwarves would be exactly?

https://www.edu.physics.uoc.gr/~lookas/pictures/lance05.jpg

Which of the three here is a half-elf? Now, you may know this answer due to familiarity, but, without that, which would you guess? That's pretty much THE iconic picture of a D&D half-elf... one that's been a reference for decades.

Lord Raziere
2015-06-01, 07:50 PM
Which of the three here is a half-elf? Now, you may know this answer due to familiarity, but, without that, which would you guess? That's pretty much THE iconic picture of a D&D half-elf... one that's been a reference for decades.

Familiarity: the one on the left. name of Tanis Half-Elven I believe.

Without it: good point, I would've probably thought the one in the middle was the half-elf.

Zaydos
2015-06-01, 08:12 PM
I feel we should test this with the most iconic half-dwarf in D&D as well... and I can even find a picture including them which has 2 men and 1 woman. I just wish I could find them standing actually shoulder to shoulder.


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gNcE-ET6L.jpg

Hawkstar
2015-06-01, 09:08 PM
... Tanis looks like a Half-Dwarf to me.

Lurkmoar
2015-06-01, 09:12 PM
... Tanis looks like a Half-Dwarf to me.

Those epic locks and manly beard are pretty cool. Though he seems a little tall for Half-Dwarf.

Zaydos
2015-06-01, 09:17 PM
Those epic locks and manly beard are pretty cool. Though he seems a little tall for Half-Dwarf.

And skinny. I blame his awesome on his dwarf foster-dad, though. Strange... those books can still stir feelings in me.

goto124
2015-06-01, 09:43 PM
Familiarity: the one on the left. name of Tanis Half-Elven I believe.

Without it: good point, I would've probably thought the one in the middle was the half-elf.

The men have rather luxurious facial hair :P

RandomNPC
2015-06-01, 09:45 PM
I read a story once where everything was intermixing except hobgoblins, they always gave birth to the females species in a relationship. (and there was reason)

One of the combat instructors wound up being immortal, and not sure why. She was in the war that started recorded history, one parent was a trelf (troll/elf) the other a dworg (dwarf/ogre) The trelf was explained that a Troll will do anything to kill, and an elf will do anything to stay alive. The dworg, well, two races that are all about being strong, I'll admit for different reasons... I think the second was a dworg...

My game worlds I require stats printed in a (supposedly) balanced book, but when it comes to story time, anything goes.

I'd provide linkage to the tale, but it was decidedly NSFW quite early on, and the author occasionally seemed to suddenly go "Oh yea, there's nymphs in the story!" and three chapters would be lost to a side story about that one time....

neonagash
2015-06-01, 11:20 PM
No. just tall ones. we've got an entire industries devoted to making beer, we're a stamina-based race, our response to threats in the past have been to send in the muscle-armed men in with heaviest weapons we can make, we have an innate desire for gold and money, when we didn't make technology we made vast monolithic stone buildings all to honor one ruler or another, and our society as a whole is full of stubborn argumentative people.

I never thought about this but they really are just short humans with a better cultural work ethic

Hawkstar
2015-06-01, 11:58 PM
Those epic locks and manly beard are pretty cool. Though he seems a little tall for Half-Dwarf.


And skinny. I blame his awesome on his dwarf foster-dad, though. Strange... those books can still stir feelings in me.
Eh... I saw him as too short and burly (Though that just might be the baggy clothes) for a human.

neonagash
2015-06-02, 12:18 AM
Seriously though are we really wondering why there's no half dwarfs?

Going by fantasy and d@d standards they are short, fat, work obsessed and have poor personalities (CHR penalty).

Add in the standard small family and long life and you have to conclude that they also have either very low fertility, almost no sex drive or both.

So from a game world Human female perspective marrying a dwarf means a childless and possibly sexless life with a miserly, work obsessed, ugly, midget. Who is also an alcoholic with a temper, oh and in many fantasy settings a depressed, brooding, racist From a dying culture obsessed with the past and stifling social mores.

Oh and as an added benefit you get to live in a cave, and since it's stated often dwarf women work with the men you ALSO get to spend your life in back breaking physical labor as a miner or smith.

As a human man you also get all that crap and to top it off your wife has a beard!!!

Boy sounds like heaven on earth. I can't imagine why these pairings aren't more common.

Contrast with an elf. Which is typically depicted as the peak of European feminine beauty from a culture focusing on freedom, creativity and individuality. Plus you get to live in a (often magically) beautiful woodland setting. Oh and no matter how long your together your mate will always appear young and attractive.

For human females? Well if you like the either the pale artsy type or the knowledgeable outdoorsman you can't really beat an elf.

Also relevant :
Dwarf cave: smoke, soot and BO everywhere.
Elf forest: talking Bambi and everything works with clean, efficient magic.

It's not even close which one any rational person would choose.

Honest Tiefling
2015-06-02, 02:46 AM
I hope you are not talking about 3.5 art, because I think I'd take my chances with the halfings instead of the 3.5 elves. Heck, I rather be in the mines then wake up next to Mialee. I wish she could grow a beard!

Also, you get all of the beer and ale you'd ever want, you get to quaff it, and no snotty tree huggers telling you not to eat meat!

And let's face it, a dexterity bonus isn't worth much without constitution to back it up. They don't need to talk during certain when putting that constitution to use. In many cases their lack of offspring is due to low fertility, so you just gotta compensate and try more often. The elf probably passed out before you even started!

What is wrong with your face, Mialee!?

Edit: I just remembered that elven males don't have body hair. Yeah, I'd rather deal with beards on ladies then that. Look at that buttress if you know what I mean.

neonagash
2015-06-02, 04:07 AM
I hope you are not talking about 3.5 art, because I think I'd take my chances with the halfings instead of the 3.5 elves. Heck, I rather be in the mines then wake up next to Mialee. I wish she could grow a beard!

Also, you get all of the beer and ale you'd ever want, you get to quaff it, and no snotty tree huggers telling you not to eat meat!

And let's face it, a dexterity bonus isn't worth much without constitution to back it up. They don't need to talk during certain when putting that constitution to use. In many cases their lack of offspring is due to low fertility, so you just gotta compensate and try more often. The elf probably passed out before you even started!

What is wrong with your face, Mialee!?

Edit: I just remembered that elven males don't have body hair. Yeah, I'd rather deal with beards on ladies then that. Look at that buttress if you know what I mean.

Eh mialee is hardly representative of elf depictions. She always looked vaguely Asian to me. I'm picturing more the classic Tolkien elf which is basically the standard for the modern art.

Also girl with a beard? No thx. Heck I won't put up with pit hair. And Brazilian wax is a thing because people like it.

As for stamina? Meh good for a guy, but a girl who gets all rubbery legged easy and needs a break is an ego boost.

Also theres some skill to the boudoir ya know? One would assume that a few centuries of practice would make you pretty good at it. Especially if you're still young and healthy when you have it.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-02, 04:40 AM
Seriously though are we really wondering why there's no half dwarfs?

Going by fantasy and d@d standards they are short, fat, work obsessed and have poor personalities (CHR penalty).

Sounds like a decent catch, I've seen far worse men in real life get partners.


Add in the standard small family and long life and you have to conclude that they also have either very low fertility, almost no sex drive or both.

Theory C, as dwarves spend lots of time drunk they are also the species that makes the most use of effective contraception.


So from a game world Human female perspective marrying a dwarf means a childless and possibly sexless life with a miserly, work obsessed, ugly, midget. Who is also an alcoholic with a temper, oh and in many fantasy settings a depressed, brooding, racist From a dying culture obsessed with the past and stifling social mores.

Why are Dwarves ugly? Charisma has nothing to do with looks. Also, not every dwarf has a temper, I always read it as most being calmer than humans except in a few rare circumstances.


Oh and as an added benefit you get to live in a cave, and since it's stated often dwarf women work with the men you ALSO get to spend your life in back breaking physical labor as a miner or smith.

Which in medieval times, differs from the physical labour from being the wife of a human farmer, miner, or blacksmith? Women were expected to work so the family wouldn't starve.


As a human man you also get all that crap and to top it off your wife has a beard!!!

Eh, I can live with that. Beards are attractive, and dwarves look manly enough anyway.


Boy sounds like heaven on earth. I can't imagine why these pairings aren't more common.

I agree, doesn't sound that bad. Maybe it's because people fail to realise how good a match one is.


Contrast with an elf. Which is typically depicted as the peak of European feminine beauty from a culture focusing on freedom, creativity and individuality. Plus you get to live in a (often magically) beautiful woodland setting. Oh and no matter how long your together your mate will always appear young and attractive.

Often mundane human city. Plus what if, like me, you prefer your women healthy and a bit tough? Don't take a cold back home to your elven spouse, she has -2 Con.


For human females? Well if you like the either the pale artsy type or the knowledgeable outdoorsman you can't really beat an elf.

But if you like somebody that looks tough, masculine, or good at building stuff, leave the woods and go back to the dwarven hunk.


Also relevant :
Dwarf cave: smoke, soot and BO everywhere.
Elf forest: talking Bambi and everything works with clean, efficient magic.

Go to dwarven cave. Start cleaning service. Make millions.

Seriously, the smoke, soot, and BO only makes them more likely to keep everything clean, you don't build stuff in a dirty lab.


It's not even close which one any rational person would choose.

Yep, dwarf all the way.


Eh mialee is hardly representative of elf depictions. She always looked vaguely Asian to me.

The elves in my setting are based of the Chinese, and so have rounded faces, straight black hair, the squashed looking noses, and skin that ranges from 'tanned' to 'yellow' to 'golden'. To me, Mialee looks very European, just with a different skin tone.

By the way, half the people I know at university are either Asian or half-asian. If Mialee actually looked Asian she'd be really hot.


I'm picturing more the classic Tolkien elf which is basically the standard for the modern art.

Eh, each to their own.


Also girl with a beard? No thx. Heck I won't put up with pit hair. And Brazilian wax is a thing because people like it.

Ew, girl that looks like a kid hair-wise? I'd take the beard over that, it doesn't look that bad.

This is going to be a little offensive, but what if dwarven women had beards like a slightly thicker version of the mustache some girls have (...including my best friend, don't tell her I noticed), so thin, short, and soft?


As for stamina? Meh good for a guy, but a girl who gets all rubbery legged easy and needs a break is an ego boost.

While I want a girl who can keep up with me while walking, and who can possibly kick my are in a sparing match. Don't really care for this softness, can you please stop generalising.


Also theres some skill to the boudoir ya know? One would assume that a few centuries of practice would make you pretty good at it. Especially if you're still young and healthy when you have it.

Nothing to say here, except elves are generally depicted as having a very low sex drive. What if they only do it once every few years?

neonagash
2015-06-02, 05:04 AM
Sounds like a decent catch, I've seen far worse men in real life get partners.



Theory C, as dwarves spend lots of time drunk they are also the species that makes the most use of effective contraception.



Why are Dwarves ugly? Charisma has nothing to do with looks. Also, not every dwarf has a temper, I always read it as most being calmer than humans except in a few rare circumstances.



Which in medieval times, differs from the physical labour from being the wife of a human farmer, miner, or blacksmith? Women were expected to work so the family wouldn't starve.



Eh, I can live with that. Beards are attractive, and dwarves look manly enough anyway.



I agree, doesn't sound that bad. Maybe it's because people fail to realise how good a match one is.



Often mundane human city. Plus what if, like me, you prefer your women healthy and a bit tough? Don't take a cold back home to your elven spouse, she has -2 Con.



But if you like somebody that looks tough, masculine, or good at building stuff, leave the woods and go back to the dwarven hunk.



Go to dwarven cave. Start cleaning service. Make millions.

Seriously, the smoke, soot, and BO only makes them more likely to keep everything clean, you don't build stuff in a dirty lab.



Yep, dwarf all the way.



The elves in my setting are based of the Chinese, and so have rounded faces, straight black hair, the squashed looking noses, and skin that ranges from 'tanned' to 'yellow' to 'golden'. To me, Mialee looks very European, just with a different skin tone.

By the way, half the people I know at university are either Asian or half-asian. If Mialee actually looked Asian she'd be really hot.



Eh, each to their own.



Ew, girl that looks like a kid hair-wise? I'd take the beard over that, it doesn't look that bad.

This is going to be a little offensive, but what if dwarven women had beards like a slightly thicker version of the mustache some girls have (...including my best friend, don't tell her I noticed), so thin, short, and soft?



While I want a girl who can keep up with me while walking, and who can possibly kick my are in a sparing match. Don't really care for this softness, can you please stop generalising.



Nothing to say here, except elves are generally depicted as having a very low sex drive. What if they only do it once every few years?

Well I'm referring to straight men here.

Men who like thick, muscular, bearded lovers probably don't need to go all the way to dwarf land to find one.

Most D@D settings are pretty cosmopolitan. I'm sure there's bars for that in most cities. You might have a hard time finding one dwarf short.... But hey no partner is perfect

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-02, 05:48 AM
Well I'm referring to straight men here.

So because I'm bi my views aren't valid?


Men who like thick, muscular, bearded lovers probably don't need to go all the way to dwarf land to find one.

And men who like thin, fragile, hairless lovers don't have to wander into elf wood to find one.


Most D@D settings are pretty cosmopolitan. I'm sure there's bars for that in most cities. You might have a hard time finding one dwarf short.... But hey no partner is perfect

First of all, I've never played Dungeons at Dragons, so I can't comment on it's settings. Sounds a lot like D&D settings though, so I wonder why there's no dwarf loving going on, is it just because 'barbaric' orcs are seen as sexier? (ew, pig men, although I'll except that they can still be attractive.) Gives me chuckles at the idea of civilised orcs wearing loincloths and scarring themselves to appear more attractive to women.

Onyavar
2015-06-02, 06:07 AM
Men who like thick, muscular, bearded lovers probably don't need to go all the way to dwarf land to find one.
In the online comic, no dwarf woman had beards so far. And even in bonus material, there was only one occurence, in the circus. Well, I hear some human women on the other hand might find some male dwarves pretty sexy. As long as they don't stink like beer.

And when it comes to non-straight partners - this thread is about offspring, not about preferences. [Edit: unless D&D wizards can do in-vitro and stuff. In that case, it's magic. And a wizard did it.]


And men who like thin, fragile, hairless lovers don't have to wander into elf wood to find one.
Oh yeah. BURN.
(I guess, anonymous didn't mean anorexic models...)

Kami2awa
2015-06-02, 06:27 AM
Well, your average dwarf has a steady job (invariably mining or crafting) and he's dependable and trustworthy (Lawful). He might be a bit surly but -2 Charisma doesn't mean every dwarf is ugly and impossible to get on with - statistically speaking there are some Cha 16 dwarven Adonises out there (Kili for one). I can see plenty of reasons for half-dwarves to turn up, if they are biologically possible.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-02, 07:17 AM
It's not even close which one any rational person would choose.

Since when has mate selection ever been based on rationality? You make the most of what's available. In a pre-digital society that means what's right in front of you or what your family can arrange with the connections they have. No Tinder apps or online dating. If all you have around you is dwarves, then that's what you get.

There's a saying in anthropology: "Where armies go, genes flow." The typical fantasy world is replete with large-scale military actions. Off screen, all those soldiers are going to have needs to take care of that the local population and their traveling retinue of support personnel will provide. Practicality, not rationality.

Even when you have 100% choice in selecting, you usually choose based on whatever quirky things you find attractive. And those traits you're attracted to are rarely, if ever, rational.

LibraryOgre
2015-06-02, 09:17 AM
And, as a reminder, the charisma penalty is far from standard. Earthdawn dwarves are noted as being gregarious and the Throal empire keeps the entire Barsaive region together. And, of course, Gold Dwarves in 3.x FR materials have a Dex penalty, not a Charisma one.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-02, 09:22 AM
(I guess, anonymous didn't mean anorexic models...)

You forgot the neck down alopecia :smalltongue:

I think this highlights the problem with an elf, gone into below.


Well, your average dwarf has a steady job (invariably mining or crafting) and he's dependable and trustworthy (Lawful). He might be a bit surly but -2 Charisma doesn't mean every dwarf is ugly and impossible to get on with - statistically speaking there are some Cha 16 dwarven Adonises out there (Kili for one). I can see plenty of reasons for half-dwarves to turn up, if they are biologically possible.

This is the big thing, a dwarf is a rational choice. They might not be pergect , but for 90% of them their personality is at least as good as a Hyman's, plus they have a steady income no matter what their gender is.

Oh, and an elf woman's CON penalty could lead to problems with childbirth, as well as their thinner frame. Dwarf men/human women have less of a problem due to similar girth. Plus elves and dwarves both think it's hilarious you can't even go at it for half an hour


Since when has mate selection ever been based on rationality? You make the most of what's available. In a pre-digital society that means what's right in front of you or what your family can arrange with the connections they have. No Tinder apps or online dating. If all you have around you is dwarves, then that's what you get.

There's a saying in anthropology: "Where armies go, genes flow." The typical fantasy world is replete with large-scale military actions. Off screen, all those soldiers are going to have needs to take care of that the local population and their traveling retinue of support personnel will provide. Practicality, not rationality.

Even when you have 100% choice in selecting, you usually choose based on whatever quirky things you find attractive. And those traits you're attracted to are rarely, if ever, rational.

This is the truth, I've been lucky that none of my horrible picks have ever reciprocated, but I've known people in horrible situations from this exact reasoning. The 'quirky stuff' I find attractive has at least three people convinced illend up with an immigrant, and some people are utterly confused by them.

Honest Tiefling
2015-06-02, 11:36 AM
Eh mialee is hardly representative of elf depictions. She always looked vaguely Asian to me.

The heck kinda Asian people do you know of!? If I was Asian, I'd probably find this vaguely insulting. Mialee has been described as a character who used her intelligence to systematically hit every branch of the ugly tree. And I'd say there's plenty of 'OH GOD NO' elves in 3.5.

Also, after armies, are traders. Dwarves have a lot of goods to sell, and well...People with money become quite attractive to many people. Elves don't produce much in the way of tradeable goods, so dwarves have a much better reason to start trading, and look like a lot better mates.

I'd also like to repeat the idea that not only are elves more likely to die to childbirth, that con penalty is NOT going to help when you are giving birth to a larger (Or wider, depending on your campaign setting) half-breed child.

Through I guess that as I am not a straight man, my opinion of ladies is not terribly important. But a money earner who can swing an axe who has plenty of curves? Yeeeaaaaaah, I'm...Not really into overly thin chicks at the best of times, but that's got my number written all over it.

Zaydos
2015-06-02, 11:39 AM
As another reminder dwarves are noted in Races of Stone to have better bathing habits than humans, and due to living in such close proximity to each other do a whole lot to keep any possible BO in check. Couple that with Lawful Good tendencies making them less likely to lash out at each other in anger (dwarves are more righteous fury than petty anger) and they actually aren't looking half-bad.

Now of course I don't find dwarves particularly attractive that way, then again I could actually say the same for elves so there's that.

Though a human mother of a half-dwarf would probably be in trouble as shown by Dark Sun and muls. Though that'd probably be less of a problem with more clean water and healing magic (are c-sections a thing in D&D?).

Sith_Happens
2015-06-02, 11:56 AM
Planescape doesn't count as standard D&D. If Planescape counts, then we might as well start talking about the dwarves of Birthright...

Most of Planescape was made the default in 3e. I know of bariaurs in the first place from Book of Exalted Deeds, for instance.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-02, 12:35 PM
The heck kinda Asian people do you know of!? If I was Asian, I'd probably find this vaguely insulting. Mialee has been described as a character who used her intelligence to systematically hit every branch of the ugly tree. And I'd say there's plenty of 'OH GOD NO' elves in 3.5.

just for fun, I'm going to go throw the 3.5 classes chapter and guess what the iconic's players put as their Appearance stat. Anybody can feel free to offer counter stats. Here's the scale I'll be using:
3: Clan Nosferatu
4-5: mirror breaking
6-7: needs work
8-9: good looking with a bit of makeup
10-11: average
12-13: good looking
14-15: that person in your class you really want to ask out
16-17: could charm someone while wearing a bin bag
18: talk about shooting first...

Okay, so here we go:
Krusk, half-orc barbarian: 8, he would be an 9 if he took better care of himself.
Gimble, gnome bard: 14, as long as he doesn't have that smile.
Jozan, human cleric of Pelor: 10, his looks are slightly bland.
Vadania, elf druid: 8, due to being too thin (especially for those assets) and too pale. Solving those would make her a 12.
Tordek, dwarf fighter: 12, he's good looking, but not distinctive.
Redgar, human fighter: 11, nothing special one way or the other.
Ember, human monk: 14, there's flaws, but overall she's good looking and stands out.
Alhandra, human paladin: 12, remove the eye shadow and strange hair and she'd stand out in a crowd.
Soveliss, elf ranger: 12, apart from the eyes (the slant looks different on each), he represents what an elf should look like.
Lidda, halfling rogue: 11, the colouration just looks off to me.
Hennet, human sorcerer: 14, I have slight problems with how his left bicep is drawn, but otherwise very attractive. He also looks Asian to me.
Mialee, elf wizard: 4, weirdly proportioned, and her face just looks wrong.
Nebin, gnome illusionist: 12, quirky looking, but his expression looks worrying.

As a bonus:
Devi's, half-elf monk: 15, good looking all round, the only downside to the picture is the shadows on his face.


Also, after armies, are traders. Dwarves have a lot of goods to sell, and well...People with money become quite attractive to many people. Elves don't produce much in the way of tradeable goods, so dwarves have a much better reason to start trading, and look like a lot better mates.

Good point, I can't believe it wasn't brought up before.


I'd also like to repeat the idea that not only are elves more likely to die to childbirth, that con penalty is NOT going to help when you are giving birth to a larger (Or wider, depending on your campaign setting) half-breed child.

This does go for human female dwarf male pairings, but a dwarf's +2 constitution also means that they are likely to go for other tough people, and the average human is 2 CON above an elf. So I'm going to say that there's likely to be less problems, but still some.


Through I guess that as I am not a straight man, my opinion of ladies is not terribly important. But a money earner who can swing an axe who has plenty of curves? Yeeeaaaaaah, I'm...Not really into overly thin chicks at the best of times, but that's got my number written all over it.

As someone who likes his ladies small but toned, I approve of your choice.

Zaydos
2015-06-02, 12:35 PM
More to the point... Bariaurs aren't half-dwarf. They're half-human half-goat.


The bariaur - herbivorous denizens of the Upper Planes - often remind primes of centaurs, their goat bodies topped with human torsos and arms.

What wikipedia mistakenly says is the original presentation of them as a playable race, not one mention of dwarves in it.


Bariaurs, probably a hardy relative of the centaur and created by the same sylvan being eons ago, have the body of a large ram or ewe and the torso of a muscular human.

Original monster entry. No mention of dwarves.


Roughly human sized, it has the body of a large goat and the torso and arms of a human. The head is a mixture of human and animal.

Actual original PC block for bariaur. Again no mention of dwarves or even beards.

And even BoEDs doesn't make any mention of dwarves, and now I want dwarftaurs. I mean elves got Pegataurs (3rd Monstrous Compendium Annual), why no dwarftaurs? They could be... umm bears? Wolves? Giant centipedes?

Lurkmoar
2015-06-02, 01:36 PM
Though a human mother of a half-dwarf would probably be in trouble as shown by Dark Sun and muls. Though that'd probably be less of a problem with more clean water and healing magic (are c-sections a thing in D&D?).

Does your friendly neighborhood Druid know Regeneration and is friendly with the community living off their land? (Clerics by RAW were boned by having limited access to the Sphere of Cosmos and double boned if you didn't have Earth, Air, Fire and Water access)

C-sections have been around for a long time in history, so I figure that yes, they would be present. Not exactly pleasant if you didn't have some healing magic, I'd wager. Muls are awesome, but thinking about their origins is pretty depressing. All that awesome comes from misery, harsh upbringings and most likely dead moms.

Honest Tiefling
2015-06-02, 01:41 PM
As someone who likes his ladies small but toned, I approve of your choice.

Brofist.

Through on a more serious question, are there any spells to aid in childbirth? I mean, I can imagine churches of motherhood or...Not having squishy parts being ripped open trying some sort of low level teleportation to get the kid out. I could easily see noblewomen and merchants paying quite a pretty penny to have a more painless birth this way, so you could cover more extreme cases of interbreeding with the profits made by rich people. (And then use the halfbreeds to convert their parent races...)

Zaydos
2015-06-02, 01:42 PM
Does your friendly neighborhood Druid know Regeneration and is friendly with the community living off their land? (Clerics by RAW were boned by having limited access to the Sphere of Cosmos and double boned if you didn't have Earth, Air, Fire and Water access)

C-sections have been around for a long time in history, so I figure that yes, they would be present. Not exactly pleasant if you didn't have some healing magic, I'd wager. Muls are awesome, but thinking about their origins is pretty depressing. All that awesome comes from misery, harsh upbringings and most likely dead moms.

As muls exclusively come from the slave pits I'm guessing no, the neighborhood Druid doesn't know Regeneration and would really like to be freed from the slave pits.

And yes, thinking about mul origins is depressing. Also... mules are male donkey + female horse, if you switch it you get a hinny which is a different type of beast entirely, similarly to how lion + tigress = liger, tiger + lioness = tion. So if male dwarf + female human = mul, what does male human + female dwarf = ??? I mean with dragons it's simple dragon + thing = better version of thing with dragon powers, but you lower life forms.


Brofist.

Through on a more serious question, are there any spells to aid in childbirth? I mean, I can imagine churches of motherhood or...Not having squishy parts being ripped open trying some sort of low level teleportation to get the kid out. I could easily see noblewomen and merchants paying quite a pretty penny to have a more painless birth this way, so you could cover more extreme cases of interbreeding with the profits made by rich people. (And then use the halfbreeds to convert their parent races...)

Maybe in one of the uncomfortably childishly adult 3rd party books/fan netbooks like BoEF, Nymphology, or the Complete Unlawful Guide to Carnal Knowledge. You know those things that bile fascination makes you look at and then which haunt your nightmares forever more.

Lurkmoar
2015-06-02, 02:32 PM
As muls exclusively come from the slave pits I'm guessing no, the neighborhood Druid doesn't know Regeneration and would really like to be freed from the slave pits.

Give the(smart) Templars a little credit.

Summary executions for spell casters.


And yes, thinking about mul origins is depressing. Also... mules are male donkey + female horse, if you switch it you get a hinny which is a different type of beast entirely, similarly to how lion + tigress = liger, tiger + lioness = tion. So if male dwarf + female human = mul, what does male human + female dwarf = ??? I mean with dragons it's simple dragon + thing = better version of thing with dragon powers, but you lower life forms.

Athas doesn't have donkeys or stinking horses. They got kanks and love them. Horses either never existed on Athas or were an unintentional casuality in the Cleansing Wars or during the Dragon's Rampage. The fact that Muls are happen to be a homonym for a sterile breed of a four legged creature is surely just a coincidence. Rrr, now I'm going to go round up a posse to kill some baby eating tembos.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-02, 03:49 PM
Brofist.

Through on a more serious question, are there any spells to aid in childbirth? I mean, I can imagine churches of motherhood or...Not having squishy parts being ripped open trying some sort of low level teleportation to get the kid out. I could easily see noblewomen and merchants paying quite a pretty penny to have a more painless birth this way, so you could cover more extreme cases of interbreeding with the profits made by rich people. (And then use the halfbreeds to convert their parent races...)

Outside of Athas, a wizard this probably researched a 'dull pain' spell for poorer clients, an 'enlarge ******' for richer ones, with only the powerful mages (level 7+) having access to 'teleport baby'. Dull pain is probably used fairly often.

neonagash
2015-06-02, 09:58 PM
just because 'barbaric' orcs are seen as sexier? (ew, pig men, although I'll except that they can still be attractive.) Gives me chuckles at the idea of civilised orcs wearing loincloths and scarring themselves to appear more attractive to women.

i'm more of an old school traditionalist on this front.

It's less "oh gimme some of that pig person"

And more "well X amount of months ago pig men raiders pillaged the village. Some of the women got away instead of being killed or drug off to the mines but long story short, there's gonna be some pig babies this spring ".

Owing to the pig peoples traditional hobbies of rape and pillage.

Although I can also see cultures that make use of slave labor wanting to force breed stronger slaves that are also dumber and less likely to successfully revolt

LibraryOgre
2015-06-03, 03:12 PM
Through on a more serious question, are there any spells to aid in childbirth? I mean, I can imagine churches of motherhood or...Not having squishy parts being ripped open trying some sort of low level teleportation to get the kid out. I could easily see noblewomen and merchants paying quite a pretty penny to have a more painless birth this way, so you could cover more extreme cases of interbreeding with the profits made by rich people. (And then use the halfbreeds to convert their parent races...)

I assume they exist but aren't enumerated in the PH and the like.

VoxRationis
2015-06-03, 03:35 PM
My 2nd Edition DMG says that casters who can "whip up a quick spell to help with a lambing" are reasonably common. Exactly how they help was not stated, but it might be applicable.

Mr. Mask
2015-06-03, 05:23 PM
How would they breed with other races? Everyone knows dwarves don't have women, they pop out of holes in the ground (https://youtu.be/ip5T89jfJoA?t=15s).

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-04, 09:04 AM
i'm more of an old school traditionalist on this front.

It's less "oh gimme some of that pig person"

And more "well X amount of months ago pig men raiders pillaged the village. Some of the women got away instead of being killed or drug off to the mines but long story short, there's gonna be some pig babies this spring ".

Owing to the pig peoples traditional hobbies of rape and pillage.

I prefer to see this as something that all races do, in fact, as orcs are less civilised they might perform this on a smaller scale. Yes the pigmen might have pillaged that village 5 times this year, but the halfling army pillaged 20 villages, and 8 towns, before they were stopped, and did far more of the old gene spreading in the process.

Although I'm imagining the town magician hastily polymorphing sheep so the orcs are held up while the townspeople get away.


Although I can also see cultures that make use of slave labor wanting to force breed stronger slaves that are also dumber and less likely to successfully revolt

It depends on the slave culture, are the children of slaves slaves or free men? Is it traditional to free slaves as a reward for service? What about slaves doing highly trained professions? (It did happen.) Is slavery fixed term or for life? Dumber isn't always better for slaves.

neonagash
2015-06-04, 09:59 AM
I prefer to see this as something that all races do, in fact, as orcs are less civilised they might perform this on a smaller scale. Yes the pigmen might have pillaged that village 5 times this year, but the halfling army pillaged 20 villages, and 8 towns, before they were stopped, and did far more of the old gene spreading in the process.

Although I'm imagining the town magician hastily polymorphing sheep so the orcs are held up while the townspeople get away.



It depends on the slave culture, are the children of slaves slaves or free men? Is it traditional to free slaves as a reward for service? What about slaves doing highly trained professions? (It did happen.) Is slavery fixed term or for life? Dumber isn't always better for slaves.

Nothing about being less civilized means less rape. Don't know where your imagination got that from.

And I would imagine that a large scale slave culture would use different breeding programs for different jobs. Halflings or elves for your artisans and house slaves, possibly dwarves for your mine slaves (although the historical death rate for mine slaves might make breeding programs uneconomical) , and orcs for the field slaves.

Probably making cooperation and large scale revolts even more difficult

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-04, 10:43 AM
Nothing about being less civilized means less rape. Don't know where your imagination got that from.

I'm just theorising that, in time war, more civilised races will do more.


And I would imagine that a large scale slave culture would use different breeding programs for different jobs. Halflings or elves for your artisans and house slaves, possibly dwarves for your mine slaves (although the historical death rate for mine slaves might make breeding programs uneconomical) , and orcs for the field slaves.

Probably making cooperation and large scale revolts even more difficult

And if the children of slaves are free people or slaves are only slaves for a limited time, breeding programs aren't useful :smallwink: also, in a lot of historical slave owning cultures, a slave could be freed for being good at his job, even if it wasn't always common.

neonagash
2015-06-04, 11:30 AM
And if the children of slaves are free people or slaves are only slaves for a limited time, breeding programs aren't useful :smallwink: also, in a lot of historical slave owning cultures, a slave could be freed for being good at his job, even if it wasn't always common.

Not an expert on slavery but I believe that cultures where the children are free were exceptions rather than the norm. As was freeing slaves in general.

Assuming human cultures tendency to dehumanize the other among even our own kind I think such a culture in a fantasy world where your slave literally is the OTHER or part other would be even less likely then historical examples.

Add in that they could have a lawful evil god who actually makes their will known and grants magical powers to believers egging them on and I'm just not seeing it as likely that they are going have overly liberal laws.

LibraryOgre
2015-06-04, 11:42 AM
Add in that they could have a lawful evil god who actually makes their will known and grants magical powers to believers egging them on and I'm just not seeing it as likely that they are going have overly liberal laws.

Consider the impact of a CG god of freedom, however, on the same society (q.v. Tellene).

Mr. Mask
2015-06-04, 03:26 PM
What's the argument, at this point?

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-04, 04:45 PM
What's the argument, at this point?

Not sure, I think we stalled at 'rational choice of partner' and have just been continuing for the sake of it.

neonagash
2015-06-06, 10:19 AM
Consider the impact of a CG god of freedom, however, on the same society (q.v. Tellene).

He lost already. His followers are the slaves . :-P

Oddman80
2015-06-08, 12:53 PM
I always thought Gnomes were the byproduct of Dwarf + Halfling.... am I alone on that one?

Lord Raziere
2015-06-08, 12:56 PM
Not sure, I think we stalled at 'rational choice of partner' and have just been continuing for the sake of it.

Haha! You think a choice of partners has anything to do with rationality! That is adorable! Ohohohohohohohohohoho....:smalltongue:

neonagash
2015-06-08, 01:02 PM
Haha! You think a choice of partners has anything to do with rationality! That is adorable! Ohohohohohohohohohoho....:smalltongue:

Considering the average fantasy game setting is either ancient Europe or Asia where arranged marriages were more common than love matches.... Yes. I think rationality would likely have a lot to do with it.

Lord Raziere
2015-06-08, 01:53 PM
Considering the average fantasy game setting is either ancient Europe or Asia where arranged marriages were more common than love matches.... Yes. I think rationality would likely have a lot to do with it.

Haha! You think the average fantasy game setting has anything to do with actual history! That is adorable! Ohohohohohohohohohoho....:smalltongue:

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-08, 02:18 PM
Haha! You think a choice of partners has anything to do with rationality! That is adorable! Ohohohohohohohohohoho....:smalltongue:

Considering my personal preferences makes it extremely hard for me to get a partner*, I don't think that, but I was responding to someone who did.

* as in, I've asked out three people in my life and been turned down thrice, had a crush on my friend's partner**, and a guy I have a prettymajod crush on might be aromantic. I started with the partners thing quite late as well.
** my friend knew almost as soon as I met their partner, they didn't really care.


Haha! You think the average fantasy game setting has anything to do with actual history! That is adorable! Ohohohohohohohohohoho....:smalltongue:

I know! Considering that I have very occasionally considered playing a noble in the military who's in an arranged marriage (normally vetoed because he uses a pistol), and have a friend with a planned character that was married off at 12 so she wasn't pressured into doing anything funny with her tutor, it's quite a shock when it comes up. In my world 90% of people over 25 are married, nobles in arranged marriages and commoners in ones of love or convenience. But this is specifically to avoid the fantasy world with no link to reality (see the fact that most people have their arms and legs covered, as the intent is for it to revolve around a China analog and vague Arabian analog).

Bad Wolf
2015-06-08, 08:06 PM
Adding my two cents in, I think its because no one wants to be the guy who made a race that resulted from a Medium character and a Small character.

Segev
2015-06-09, 11:00 AM
Adding my two cents in, I think its because no one wants to be the guy who made a race that resulted from a Medium character and a Small character.

Eh, dwarves are medium, not small. And there are real life couples who are more size-different than your average dwarf and average human would be. I think a couple of basketball players are married to women who are, compared to them, more what a halfling would be to an average human. So even THAT is...workable.



In speculative setting-thoughts, I've lately pondered how the world would look if the human body type could go from somewhere around mouse-sized to "can ride brontosauri like horses." Ignoring the issues of square-cube law crushing giant humans, how would our world look if we had people ranging all over that size spectrum? Sure, heridity plays a role, but it wouldn't be something you could draw a line and say "you're a member of Short Race/Tall Race" or the like to. Birth size is likely more a function of the mother than anything else.

But of more interest to me is, when you have to design architecture to handle all of these possibilities with no real gaps in probable heights (again, there's no "race of giants" and "race of dwarves;" any division would be arbitrary by drawing a line through what is a continuum), what does a city look like? How much do you build places to accommodate "only" certain sizes? The tiniest people would not be able to interact safely, let alone meaningfully, in the largest-sized spaces. At the same time, the intricate work they could do as mechanics and electronics engineers would be fascinating. Construction, at least for the smaller-scale people, would be eased by having larger-scale people doing it, while the hugest of people would always have to spend the most on housing, and for the least relatively-usable space.

goto124
2015-06-09, 11:02 AM
Size-adjusting spells would sell like hot cakes.

Segev
2015-06-09, 11:11 AM
Size-adjusting spells would sell like hot cakes.

I was thinking an otherwise-nonmagical world (probably akin to ours in tech), but that's true! They also would probably be one of the things people really liked playing with in RPGs, because seeing what other sizes "lived like" would be of interest when they really are all around you.


One of the things I picture is how classrooms might look, with the largest students at massive desks and the smaller students actually in stacked "blocks" (Hollywoord Squares style) around them to take advantage of all the vertical space. But they'd have to be in front of the larger ones, because otherwise the big kid's desk in front would block their view when the big kid sat there with his massive back in the way.

Heck, pre-computers, imagine trying to grade their work, when some students would perforce use sheets that are either so big you can stand on them or so tiny you can't read them. Some arbitrary lines would likely HAVE to be drawn for minimum and maximum physical size of students in each class, probably with overlap (just to provide flexibility in balancing class numbers). Maybe 4 classes per grade level, with teachers chosen specifically to be each roughly half as tall as the next starting at either 1 ft. or 6 inches, so that you can have classes ranging from about half the teacher's height to twice, but no more or less.

goto124
2015-06-09, 11:16 AM
Size based racism?

Segev
2015-06-09, 01:50 PM
Size based racism?

Without clear demarkations of where one "race" stops and another starts, that would be...possible, still, given human nature, but likely not quite so institutionalized.

If you had an obvious gap-point, as between, say, halflings and humans, that might be more likely. But racism is actually a very simplistic prejudice, so the harder it is to tell "in general" whether somebody is a part of the "inferior" race, the less likely people are to engage in it.

We have racism in America because we can easily say, for most of the population, whether they are white/black/hispanic/asian. There used to be racism against Irish people, but nowadays I suspect most Americans are like me and couldn't tell an Irish-descended person from a British or German-descended one. I can honestly say that there are celebrities who I did not realize were black (Halley Barry amongst them) until I saw them on Oprah in an episode celebrating black achievement. I...will stop here, because any further and I'll probably be delving too deeply into real-world issues.

Veering back from the line, I suspect that if skin tone were commonly gradiated without clear demarkation, racism would be far less common.

On the other hand, you could potentially have stereotypes. People would tend to classify in broad bands, at least. "Bigguns" might be characterized as clumsy, while "Shrimps" might be characterized as annoying, or something. The weird bit would be the arguments between somebody closer to human-sized and somebody in the 20-ft. range over whether the 6-footer is a "Shrimp" or the 20-footer is a "Biggun," since to the 20-footer, the 50-footers are "bigguns" and to the 6-footer, the half-footers are "shrimps."

We do like to categorize as humans, though, so we might well have classifications. In fact, it might even be how we sort for building sizes and the like. Being at a half-way point would be quite the mixed blessing - you could easily fit in and work in either of the adjacent size category buildings/tools/etc., but you'd always be either annoyingly short or uncomfortably tall for them. As societies became wealthier, they could afford more "half-way" sized things, which would narrow that gap and make the old "halfsies" have sizes just for them, putting what used to be considered "normal" for their size category in as the new "halfsies..." but ultimately still improving things for everyone since the new "halfsies" fit in more in the new categories than the old ones did in either of the two they once had to settle for.

Of course, pre-industrial, most things would be largely custom-built, so everybody has it tailored for their size. It's only when we get to modern-ish mass production that we start having "Standard tiny/small/medium/large/huge items," and then as we get wealthier still that we get that modified to "standard tiny/little/small/petite/medium/big/large/XL/huge" when the society is rich enough/prices come down enough to afford that level of granularity.

neonagash
2015-06-10, 02:57 PM
Haha! You think the average fantasy game setting has anything to do with actual history! That is adorable! Ohohohohohohohohohoho....:smalltongue:

Maybe yours don't. But most people do try to keep some grounding in their concept of history to avoid tippyverse.

J-H
2015-06-10, 03:27 PM
In speculative setting-thoughts, I've lately pondered how the world would look if the human body type could go from somewhere around mouse-sized to "can ride brontosauri like horses." Ignoring the issues of square-cube law crushing giant humans, how would our world look if we had people ranging all over that size spectrum? Sure, heridity plays a role, but it wouldn't be something you could draw a line and say "you're a member of Short Race/Tall Race" or the like to. Birth size is likely more a function of the mother than anything else.


If you want to look at how this gets implemented biologically, look at dogs. A 140# St. Bernard is 28 times the mass of a 5# Yorkie... and I think some dogs get close to the 200# mark.

LibraryOgre
2015-06-10, 03:30 PM
Maybe yours don't. But most people do try to keep some grounding in their concept of history to avoid tippyverse.

A lot depends on the setting, though. While folks like to point to history to justify things in game, there are few settings where it's truly relevant, since they're alien worlds that superficially resemble real ones, not actually based on history.

For example, a knowledge of history might help you in Deadlands or Shadowrun, since those are ostensibly based somewhat on the real world. But in the Forgotten Realms? Insisting on what happened "in history" or "at that time" is not really valid, since it's not our world. Yes, the world outwardly resembles medieval Europe, at least in technology and the conception of clothing, but there are a lot of differences from it, as well... socially, culturally, and politically. Lots of transactions will take place in cash, despite the prevalence of barter in the middle ages. Your character will be largely free to roam around armed, wearing whatever clothes you like, despite rules preventing peasants from doing that. Your common born fighter has a reasonable chance of growing up to be a Duke (if he makes it to 9th level, at least).

D&D worlds assume a tremendous amount of social and cultural mobility. The varied churches have different, and usually far less ubiquitous, political power than the medieval church had, and various social and cultural norms cannot be assumed because of how things stood in Earth's history, due to entirely different metaphysical situations (the real, immediate, provability of deities, and their direct communication to their priests, for example), and the resulting cultural differences.

neonagash
2015-06-11, 01:57 PM
A lot depends on the setting, though. While folks like to point to history to justify things in game, there are few settings where it's truly relevant, since they're alien worlds that superficially resemble real ones, not actually based on history.

For example, a knowledge of history might help you in Deadlands or Shadowrun, since those are ostensibly based somewhat on the real world. But in the Forgotten Realms? Insisting on what happened "in history" or "at that time" is not really valid, since it's not our world. Yes, the world outwardly resembles medieval Europe, at least in technology and the conception of clothing, but there are a lot of differences from it, as well... socially, culturally, and politically. Lots of transactions will take place in cash, despite the prevalence of barter in the middle ages. Your character will be largely free to roam around armed, wearing whatever clothes you like, despite rules preventing peasants from doing that. Your common born fighter has a reasonable chance of growing up to be a Duke (if he makes it to 9th level, at least).

D&D worlds assume a tremendous amount of social and cultural mobility. The varied churches have different, and usually far less ubiquitous, political power than the medieval church had, and various social and cultural norms cannot be assumed because of how things stood in Earth's history, due to entirely different metaphysical situations (the real, immediate, provability of deities, and their direct communication to their priests, for example), and the resulting cultural differences.

This is true.

But if you look at the reasons at the very core of arranged marriage traditions which was to put two families together in the most advantageous way possible for economic, or military reasons in most cases all that still exists in fantasy societies. The political motivations will also exist in virtually any political system. Whether its actual inherited titles or just businesses and family friends or prestige you will have reasons for arranged marriages.

I don't consider the Church issue relevant either because arranged marriages were also part of pagan and other non judeo Christian religions all over the world.

In fact according to statisticbrain.com 54% of marriages in the modern world are still arranged marriages. So even if we use fantasy societies as closer to modern then say European dark ages your still more likely to have an arranged marriage than a romantically based one.

Ralanr
2015-06-11, 02:49 PM
Where does it say female dwarves have beards? Seriously this always bugs me.

neonagash
2015-06-11, 03:23 PM
Where does it say female dwarves have beards? Seriously this always bugs me.

Lord of the rings. Also some early d&d supplements.

Ralanr
2015-06-11, 03:41 PM
Lord of the rings. Also some early d&d supplements.

Seriously? Tolkien did bearded dwarves? Good to know.

neonagash
2015-06-11, 04:20 PM
Seriously? Tolkien did bearded dwarves? Good to know.

Yup. Gimli brings it up during the march to helms deep if I remember correctly.

Killer Angel
2015-06-11, 04:24 PM
There are no half dwarves because this way we can avoid all the jokes about their small size.

Ralanr
2015-06-11, 04:50 PM
Yup. Gimli brings it up during the march to helms deep if I remember correctly.

I thought he was joking!

SouthpawSoldier
2015-06-11, 07:35 PM
I thought he was joking!

This isn't Tolkien; it's Jackson. Books made no mention of female dwarfs.

Ralanr
2015-06-11, 09:23 PM
This isn't Tolkien; it's Jackson. Books made no mention of female dwarfs.

Thank you.

I'll just take that as joking. Honestly I'm in the boat of female dwarves NOT having beards.

hamishspence
2015-06-12, 12:17 AM
This isn't Tolkien; it's Jackson. Books made no mention of female dwarfs.

In the main text. In the appendix at the back, however, it's mentioned. Gimli's quote is almost verbatim from the Appendix:

"It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need, They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves ’grow out of stone’." (Durin’s Folk, Appendix A)

dafrca
2015-06-12, 12:24 AM
This isn't Tolkien; it's Jackson. Books made no mention of female dwarfs.
Tolkien did say all Dwarves had beards in The War of the Jewels if I am not mistaken.

However, I too am in agreement that we let the poor Dwarven women have clean faces. :smallsmile:

Feddlefew
2015-06-12, 01:35 AM
Tolkien did say all Dwarves had beards in The War of the Jewels if I am not mistaken.

However, I too am in agreement that we let the poor Dwarven women have clean faces. :smallsmile:
Why? They're not humans.

Lord Raziere
2015-06-12, 02:07 AM
Why? They're not humans.

Why not? They're not humans!

neonagash
2015-06-12, 02:10 AM
Í
This isn't Tolkien; it's Jackson. Books made no mention of female dwarfs.

Yes they did. In the books he told a hobbit. That's the only difference

Zaydos
2015-06-12, 02:13 AM
Why not? They're not humans!

Because with the exception of humans excessive (by human standards) body hair is the norm :smalltongue:

Actually the real answer is not an in universe one.

Do your players want it one way (especially your female players)?

If you have bearded dwarves will everyone just take it as a Discworld reference and expect your dwarves to replicate in detail Discworld dwarves?

With my players the answer to the first has been "No," or "No, unless it's a Discworld reference" which would not play out well.

neonagash
2015-06-12, 02:18 AM
Because with the exception of humans excessive (by human standards) body hair is the norm :smalltongue:

Actually the real answer is not an in universe one.

Do your players want it one way (especially your female players)?

If you have bearded dwarves will everyone just take it as a Discworld reference and expect your dwarves to replicate in detail Discworld dwarves?

With my players the answer to the first has been "No," or "No, unless it's a Discworld reference" which would not play out well.

In 20 years of gaming I remember this issue coming up exactly once. And it was in a LoTR setting .

The table concensus ( including girls) was "who gives a F, where's the treasure?). So I have always stuck with bearded dwarves

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-12, 02:57 AM
However, I too am in agreement that we let the poor Dwarven women have clean faces. :smallsmile:

Give them razors then.

I'm in the camp of dwarf men having big bushy beards, while female dwarves having thinner beards.

LibraryOgre
2015-06-12, 09:10 AM
Where does it say female dwarves have beards? Seriously this always bugs me.

I know that Dwarves Deep specifically mentions that female dwarves have beards. Complete Dwarves mention that deep dwarven women wear their beards long, but women of other dwarf subraces tend to shave theirs.

Segev
2015-06-12, 01:01 PM
I once posited that all dwarves are born bald. When they hit puberty, as with human males, their beards start to come in. Male dwarves have beards on their chins/faces (as one might expect); female dwarves have them on top of their heads. In the dwarven language, "hair" and "beard" are the same word. Male dwarves never grow hair on their heads (and, to them, hair on the head is a decidedly femanine trait, making humans and especially elves and halflings look effemanite).

dafrca
2015-06-12, 10:56 PM
I once posited that all dwarves are born bald. When they hit puberty, as with human males, their beards start to come in. Male dwarves have beards on their chins/faces (as one might expect); female dwarves have them on top of their heads. In the dwarven language, "hair" and "beard" are the same word. Male dwarves never grow hair on their heads (and, to them, hair on the head is a decidedly femanine trait, making humans and especially elves and halflings look effemanite).
Fun way to look at it. Now how would they see a human with long hair and a full beard? :smallbiggrin:

Segev
2015-06-13, 12:05 AM
Fun way to look at it. Now how would they see a human with long hair and a full beard? :smallbiggrin:

Probably the same way we tend to react to "bearded ladies." Some combination of "that's funny" and "that's disturbing."

Alternatively, think of how you react to the notion of "female dwarves have beards." The range of reactions from humans on that subject likely reflects fairly accurately the range of reactions dwarves have to human males with full heads of hair and beards (e.g. Santa Clause).

hymer
2015-06-13, 05:21 AM
I once posited that all dwarves are born bald. When they hit puberty, as with human males, their beards start to come in. Male dwarves have beards on their chins/faces (as one might expect); female dwarves have them on top of their heads. In the dwarven language, "hair" and "beard" are the same word. Male dwarves never grow hair on their heads (and, to them, hair on the head is a decidedly femanine trait, making humans and especially elves and halflings look effemanite).

I have a dwarf culture where it's the norm for men to shave from the ears up (save eyebrows), and for women to shave in the other direction.

Feddlefew
2015-06-13, 06:49 PM
I have a dwarf culture where it's the norm for men to shave from the ears up (save eyebrows), and for women to shave in the other direction.

Mind if I take this?

dafrca
2015-06-13, 07:22 PM
Probably the same way we tend to react to "bearded ladies." Some combination of "that's funny" and "that's disturbing."

Alternatively, think of how you react to the notion of "female dwarves have beards." The range of reactions from humans on that subject likely reflects fairly accurately the range of reactions dwarves have to human males with full heads of hair and beards (e.g. Santa Clause).
Or when we see a woman who is bald. Gets some interesting reactions from folks. Friend of mine went through chemo and lost 100% of her hair on her head. No eyebrows or anything left. She received some interesting comments when she went out in public. Lots of stares as well. I thought it made her look younger though. LOL

Segev
2015-06-14, 03:07 PM
Or when we see a woman who is bald. Gets some interesting reactions from folks. Friend of mine went through chemo and lost 100% of her hair on her head. No eyebrows or anything left. She received some interesting comments when she went out in public. Lots of stares as well. I thought it made her look younger though. LOL

Mom did what many women do: she sore a bandanna to cover her bald head. (I understand men are more likely to wear hats.) She also had a wig that she wore for more formal occasions. She's since let her hair grow back out, but never to the length it once was.

dafrca
2015-06-14, 10:23 PM
Mom did what many women do: she sore a bandanna to cover her bald head. (I understand men are more likely to wear hats.) She also had a wig that she wore for more formal occasions. She's since let her hair grow back out, but never to the length it once was. Yes, my friend wore a scarf outside to protect her head from direct sunlight, sunburn of the scalp is not fun.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-15, 06:21 AM
I have a dwarf culture where it's the norm for men to shave from the ears up (save eyebrows), and for women to shave in the other direction.

Of course, there is a counter culture where the opposite happens.

I just realised something, surely long bushy beards would get in the way at the forge.

goto124
2015-06-15, 09:56 AM
That's why you tied up and braid your beards.

Beardcare, everydwarf.

Flickerdart
2015-06-15, 10:12 AM
I just realised something, surely long bushy beards would get in the way at the forge.
That is exactly why dwarves might value beards - a skilled blacksmith (or an overseer/other fancy in-charge type who doesn't do manual work) will maintain a clean beard despite the soot and flame of the forge, while a lousy one (or one who performs a lot of manual labour) would have a singed beard. This way, a dwarf's beard is an excellent indicator of social class, much like long fingernails were in China.

I love the idea of dwarves not having a distinction between head-hair and beard-hair, though. In fact, you could crib a line from our good friend the lion and give male dwarves a magnificent mane, with female dwarves having short head hair and no beards.

Anonymouswizard
2015-06-15, 11:10 AM
That is exactly why dwarves might value beards - a skilled blacksmith (or an overseer/other fancy in-charge type who doesn't do manual work) will maintain a clean beard despite the soot and flame of the forge, while a lousy one (or one who performs a lot of manual labour) would have a singed beard. This way, a dwarf's beard is an excellent indicator of social class, much like long fingernails were in China.

I love the idea of dwarves not having a distinction between head-hair and beard-hair, though. In fact, you could crib a line from our good friend the lion and give male dwarves a magnificent mane, with female dwarves having short head hair and no beards.

That reminds me of an idea I read on these forums: dwarves have fur, and the men have manes.