Faustian Pacts

[KindOfGoodGuy]

Ok so 2 questions.

First, is it possible to make a faustian pact with an angel?

Second, is it possible for a warlock who gave up part of his soul to a devil to get his powers but killed said devil and reclaimed his soul to make a faustian pact with an angel? (sorry if that is hard to read)

[Honest Tiefling]

I would lean to uh, not really. Angels are probably not going to make pacts that screw you over, so not terribly Faustian. However, they might make a harsh pact with a mortal who they felt needed redemption, because you do not redeem yourself with hugs and chocolate. Would that suit your needs instead?

As for the latter, probably not in the standard DnD cosmology, as Devils tend to use those things up. I don't know if you can trade a part of a soul. However, this is up to your DM and I strongly encourage you to speak with them, as many DMs change up outsiders for their settings.

Have you checked out the Hellbred race? I believe it is a race of beings who have escaped from hell and seek redemption. I think it might be fitting for your concept.

[PersonMan]

The issue with 'Angelic Faustian Bargains' is simple: You can't get into the Upper Planes without being Good, at least not normally, but you want to go there.

It'd be like signing a pact swearing to move into a wonderful mansion with your own serving staff and infinite money. :smalltongue:

[Clistenes]

I would lean to uh, not really. Angels are probably not going to make pacts that screw you over, so not terribly Faustian. However, they might make a harsh pact with a mortal who they felt needed redemption, because you do not redeem yourself with hugs and chocolate. Would that suit your needs instead?.

An Atonement spell does this, except you have to complete the quest before getting your class abilities back. I guess an Angel could give your powers back before even starting the quest in exchange for accepting a particularly difficult and long task.

[Red Fel]

The issue with 'Angelic Faustian Bargains' is simple: You can't get into the Upper Planes without being Good, at least not normally, but you want to go there.

It'd be like signing a pact swearing to move into a wonderful mansion with your own serving staff and infinite money. :smalltongue:

Pretty much this.

The thing about a Faustian Pact, in essence, is that you're getting some advantage now in exchange for a pretty hefty price later. Cosmic Good doesn't need that. You've heard the saying "A Good deed is its own reward?"

Cosmic Good rewards hard work. That's why Faustian Pacts are appealing - they're a short-cut. That's also why they're distinct from Good stuff. I assume you've also heard the saying "What is right is not always easy; what is easy is not always right?" Faustian Pacts are the easy way.

By RAW, the closest you get to Angelic Faustian Pacts would be Sacred Vow and its iterations. Frankly, I'd take the Faustian.

[Jowgen]

I'm rather positive it would be in direct violation of the Pact Primeval between Asmodeous and the cosmic powers of Law if anyone other than Baator were to try an start using their own version of Faustian pacts. At the absolute least, it would be impossible to use this hypothetical Angelic Faustian Pact for anyone whose soul is destined to Baator.

Also, even if Asmodeus somehow miraculously didn't mind; no deity worth their salt would let their souls get swiped in this manner. The forces of Good would need to literally sit down with everyone potentially affected and work out the rules for this up ahead; wherein Asmodeous would obviously get a straight up veto-right by virtue of having had first dibs in this kind of arrangement.

Afro would be the best person to ask for potential work-arounds, but the lay of the law is pretty darn clear on this.

[Zordran]

A reversed Faustian pact is certainly possible, but remember that it would be completely reversed. A Faustian pact is (ideally for the seller), "Do what you want, and pay for it later." The opposite would then be, "A reward is forthcoming, and behavior is enforced."

In practice, this becomes a "can't get away with nothin'" scenario, where the PC regularly runs into walls, finding that everything that he used to do to get by in life is no longer allowed, and whole new ways of living are thrust upon him.

This puts an incredibly heavy burden on the GM and player alike. The player will find himself as frustrated as the character much of the time. Willpower alone will not change a character who is in this situation--otherwise the pact would not be necessary--and his willpower will be eroded time and again as the archon (or whatever made the deal with him) drags him kicking and screaming into enlightenment.

Mechanically, it would go something like this:

You: Will you do this for me?
Archon: Yes, but are you sure you want this?
You: Yes.
Archon: Are you sure?
You: Yes.
Archon: Are you sure?
You: YES!
Archon: So be it.

At this point, the archon possesses you, with full Fiend Folio privileges, even up to controlling your actions. You are officially cut off from your old power source, and the archon becomes your new power source. Yes, you can wrestle with him, make Will saves against him, pigheadedly do the wrong thing. You will yell and rage and curse the monster that did these awful things to you, but will slowly start to find him a source of comfort, and this is how he seduces you into doing right.

Just remember that you were bought at a price: attempting to reject the archon's possession should give him pause to consider giving up on you. And if he does, then who will take you? You've lost your powers. You're not useful to anyone, and you've proven that you can't be trusted. Hopefully, a higher power is watching your redemption with interest; one of the nice things about Good is that you can always come crawling back. That's how forgiveness is defined. :smallamused:

The GM has a special challenge ahead of him: all of the frustration that he puts the player through must eventually be seen as having been for the PC's own good. I have never personally played with a GM who was up to that, which isn't saying much.

Remember that sprinting down a flight of stairs is easy, while sprinting up a flight of stairs is not, and it approaches impossible the more stairs you add. In short, this (http://what-if.xkcd.com/126/) is you, the edge of space is heaven, and the archon is your backpack full of butter. There is no motorcycle, and boy are you gonna get sick of butter.

[Samalpetey]

Ok so 2 questions.

First, is it possible to make a faustian pact with an angel?

Second, is it possible for a warlock who gave up part of his soul to a devil to get his powers but killed said devil and reclaimed his soul to make a faustian pact with an angel? (sorry if that is hard to read)

No to the first, and you can't give up just part of your soul to my knowledge. As for the last part of that, you could make the argument that if your soul is going to a specific devil than the contract's null and void if that devil dies, but that involves going to the hells and tracking down something that can greater teleport at will, then killing it before it can escape.