Can an intelligent magic item acquire class levels?

[SirKazum]

What it says in the title. Sure, for most magic items, that wouldn't make a lot of sense, but just assume the item has the means to move about and interact with the world on its own, without the mediation of a character. Since it's considered as a construct - and therefore a creature - and has a sentient mind, is there any reason it couldn't gain levels in any class whose abilities it could conceptually use?

[Prime32]

The problem is that it doesn't have a character level.

If you're in PF, though, you can get around that by applying the Petitioner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/petitioner-cr-1) template and using the Monsters as PC rules.

[Milo v3]

In PF it might also be easier since you can have intelligent magic items that can shapechange into humans and halflings, so training them would likely be easier.

As a GM I might treat the 0 character level in the same way characters might have a 0 character level before they reach starting age. Though that might not work in PF if using the rules for children in your campaign...

[Telonius]

I want to say this is possible with the "Psionic Sandwich" trick, but I'm not 100% certain.

[SirKazum]

The problem is that it doesn't have a character level.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem I see. Even though they're technically creatures with the Construct type, they don't really have any HD, so the rules get all wonky if you try to "advance" them through character levels. I'd house-rule it by giving them "virtual HD" that more or less match their existing capabilities, but the end result (saving throws, HP, and various other stats) would certainly be rather wonky.

[elonin]

Is this for an NPC? If so then rule 0 always works. If you want some structure item familiar rules might get you close.

[DrMotives]

It's just hard to juggle mechanically. I had a PC ask to play an intelligent bonsai tree with levels in Psion. He didn't want to be an Awakened plant, he wanted no ability to control his physical body at all outside of his Psion class features. I thought it was an interesting concept, but frankly I'm familiar enough with the psionics system to handle it. I think he took his character concept and played it in someone else's GURPS campaign after that, apparently it's more manageable there.

[SirKazum]

Is this for an NPC? If so then rule 0 always works. If you want some structure item familiar rules might get you close.

It's mostly an idle musing, like most of the stuff I post here in the Roleplaying section :smalltongue: But it's also something I may or may not use with a given character. Suffice to say I'm quite fond of using intelligent magic items as characters...

[nedz]

You could create a Fiend of Possession and have it possess an item. It could even grant the item polymorphic abilities, i.e. it can adapt the enchantments to the threat faced — Bane is the obvious Cheese here.

[ShurikVch]

If Warforged use persisted Alter Self... :smallwink:

Also, Haunt Shift spell

Some issue of Dragon suggested weapon may get levels, but instead CFs get various Weapon Special Abilities

[Necroticplague]

It could, technically. However, I'm not sure how the rules for the saves and HP of magic items, and the rules for saves and HP of creatures would interact. In addition, intelligent items don't have an ECL, CR, or HD by default, so how much XP it takes for them to advance is entirely fiat.

[SirKazum]

You could create a Fiend of Possession and have it possess an item. It could even grant the item polymorphic abilities, i.e. it can adapt the enchantments to the threat faced — Bane is the obvious Cheese here.

The problem is that it's something else that possesses the item, not the item itself acquiring class levels. Same with Haunt Shift.

What got me thinking about it isn't even a campaign, it's a story based on 3.5 D&D rules (more or less like OOTS is). For the sake of argument, think of it as an NPC. I'm thinking of a magic item enchanted with a continuous Animate Objects effect, and given intelligence as per the intelligent magic item rules. This fella would then go on adventures and eventually acquire class levels. It's not a matter of "can I do it", since of course it's my story and I do whatever the hell I want (same if it was an NPC in my campaign) - I'm just shopping for ideas on how it would work in practical terms. And also posing it as a theoretical question of wider applicability in D&D in general :smallsmile:


It could, technically. However, I'm not sure how the rules for the saves and HP of magic items, and the rules for saves and HP of creatures would interact. In addition, intelligent items don't have an ECL, CR, or HD by default, so how much XP it takes for them to advance is entirely fiat.

Yeah, those are my biggest stumbling blocks - magic items have their own rules for saves and HP, which are completely independent from what applies to creatures/characters. In this case, since it's an animated object, at least there's a HD and a "regular" amount of HP, but the question remains of whether its saves would progress from what it gets as a magic item, or if you re-calculate it based on HD and levels and whatnot. It's a mess. As for XP, yeah, there are no rules for acquiring your first level ever (when you're already a character), but if the original creature has HD (and, maybe, an ad-hoc LA), then one can calculate what XP is needed to get a class level. For items with no HD (which would be most of them, in fact), maybe I'd come back to that "virtual HD" idea, coming up with an ad-hoc value for the purposes of XP requirements. There would still be the problem of making the math work with effects that depend on the creature's HD and stuff...

[unseenmage]

I would treat the specific magic item traits just like any other monster traits. They would all be SU abilities (since they disappear in an antimagic field)

There's also the Flying magic weapon property in one of the 3.0 Faerun books that makes the enchanted weapon into an animated object. Makes the whole query a lot less theoretical and a lot more mechanical when there's a printed method for giving a type of magic item HD etc

[Ger. Bessa]

A construct is maybe the easiest thing to make at "lv 0". (Note that this is homebrew live).

Type : construct (associated traits and immunities)
Hit dice : None (bonus hit points equals to the hardness of the item, replaces the bonus hit points given for small or bigger constructs)
Movement : None (Unless enchanted to have one)
Saves : +0/+0/+0 (or maybe a +2 to the strong save for constructs, construct immunities, can use the saves of the bearer if attended)
Skills : no points and no class skills. When the item takes his first class level, he gets x4 skill points on that level.
Abilities : -/-/-/int/wis/cha (unless the item is enchanted to have one)

LA : determined by DM, according to the special abilities of the item.

Note : no template can be added to the intelligent item until he has at least 1 hit dice.

Since items have hardness and cconstrucs have bonus hp based on size, you can do something similar to the level 0 risen martyr from BoED.

Opinion ?

[SirKazum]

Hit points aren't really an issue since pretty much any object has hit points (as determined by the material and size), and some magic items such as weapons have additional rules for those. Magic items also have saves based on their caster level. The problem is getting those stats to play well together with the fact that they don't have HD :smallbiggrin: So I guess you're looking at a starting level/HD anywhere between what an Animated Object of the same size (or alternately, a construct with the same total HP) gets, and their caster level. Which would be a "virtual level" for the purposes of, say, XP at least, not sure where else it would apply (e.g. effects that depend on the target's level/HD). Hmmm... gotta think a bit more on it.

[Ger. Bessa]

Strangely, it might be better if you're a (for exemple) sword with LA +6 and 3 bards levels in a party of ECL 9 rather than an animated object with class levels. Especially since those hd are based on size.

After all when one plays a kaorti fiend of possession, his/her hp does not really matters, nor the other class abilities. It's a sword before everything else, a roleplayer and a buffer after. When you're attented is maybe the only time when having six less hd than the rest of the party isn't crippling.

So don't give more levels. The item is strong as it is, let it be. He is protected by being attented (sword) or ride checks (flying carpet). If it was already capable of moving, it would already have hit dices anyway (animated object).

[JyP]

What it says in the title. Sure, for most magic items, that wouldn't make a lot of sense, but just assume the item has the means to move about and interact with the world on its own, without the mediation of a character. Since it's considered as a construct - and therefore a creature - and has a sentient mind, is there any reason it couldn't gain levels in any class whose abilities it could conceptually use?
The easiest way I see would be to use Weapons of Legacy rules : you start as a mere +1 weapon and a Legacy Event awaken it (with minor intelligent trait). As you continue on adventures with various wielders, those have more and more levels and are able to unlock more powers.

[unseenmage]

Somewhere in the 3.0 DMG there are a few lines of text describing 1/2 level "Apprentice" characters. Could be useful for this project too.



I'm not really sure that the Intelligent Magic Item having zero HD is that big an issue since it already has baked in HD dependent benefits. Just treat Zero as a number. Treat it as a fraction of a whole just like fractional RHD.

The biggest problem is that after it is allowed to gain more HD deciding whether the HP and Saves it already has become bonuses or get replaced. And there might be precedent for this too. A 1 RHD Elf or Human has their RHD replaced when they gain a level. Since fractional RHD creatures also get their RHD replaced when they gain their first level one can infer that 0RHD would get replaced too.

I think that I would rule that the stats an Intelligent Magic Item has that normally come from HD would get replaced by that first gained HD just like the saves, BAB, hp, etc of a 1RHD or fractional RHD creature.

[SirKazum]

Regarding saves, I'm thinking of applying the rule of "either what they get from their HD and class levels, or what they get as a magic item, whichever is better". Sounds kinda clunky, and without precedent in D&D, but just adding it all together would yield way too large bonuses. Besides, I think it's good (or necessary, at any rate) to keep their "creature side" and "magic item side" separate.

BTW, unseenmage - is your avatar using a berimbau as a bow? Totally unrelated, but I had to ask :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

The problem is that it doesn't have a character level.

If you're in PF, though, you can get around that by applying the Petitioner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/petitioner-cr-1) template and using the Monsters as PC rules.
3.5 has Petitioners too, with an even more permissive suitability:
3.5: "“Petitioner” is a template that may be added to any creature as determined by the nature of the campaign (referred to hereafter as the base creature)."
PF: “Petitioner” is an acquired template that can be added to any creature whose soul migrates to one of the Outer Planes following its death (henceforth referred to as the base creature)."

3.5's template does mention that "constructs and undead are not usually made into petitioners" but the "usually" exception conclusively means that it's possible.

In fact, since item powers are not SLAs, an intelligent item should be able to use any of its powers that isn't skill ranks.

[Necroticplague]

Were I to do this, I would probably slap the HP/saves from a character from on top of what it has as an item. Make it so that it's normal toughness is essentially it's RHD. Also, if it has skill ranks from a magic item power, I'd consider those to be bonus as well. No reason leveling up should remove some of the bonus from being a magic sword (or whatever).

[Prime32]

The problem is that it doesn't have a character level.

If you're in PF, though, you can get around that by applying the Petitioner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/petitioner-cr-1) template and using the Monsters as PC rules.

3.5 has Petitioners too, with an even more permissive suitability:
3.5: "“Petitioner” is a template that may be added to any creature as determined by the nature of the campaign (referred to hereafter as the base creature)."
PF: “Petitioner” is an acquired template that can be added to any creature whose soul migrates to one of the Outer Planes following its death (henceforth referred to as the base creature)."

3.5's template does mention that "constructs and undead are not usually made into petitioners" but the "usually" exception conclusively means that it's possible.

In fact, since item powers are not SLAs, an intelligent item should be able to use any of its powers that isn't skill ranks.Yes, but in 3.5 it's still not playable because it doesn't have a Level Adjustment.

[unseenmage]

...

BTW, unseenmage - is your avatar using a berimbau as a bow? Totally unrelated, but I had to ask :smallbiggrin:

Why yes, yes it is. :smallbiggrin:
Congrats for being only the second person to recognize it.


My contention on the Intelligent Magic Item thing is that it is already a creature by virtue of being called out as a Construct. And that it's Intelligent Magic Item stats are just SU abilities that would be listed under special qualities. It just happens to have zero HD and some HD like abilities.

I do agree that having the better of the two apply is a good fix. Though I would still probably still have the actual HD replace the 'zero hit die' dependent benefits. Maybe lycanthropes or Shapechange or something can give us precedent for what happens when a creature has hp or other normally HD dependant benefits (say from the Construct type) and they suddenly go away.

[Clistenes]

Monte Cook’s Book of Eldritch Might III has rules for that. There is a class for intelligent items (a sort of lesser sorcerer class) but the item can only get the xp that its master gives it from its own pool.

[SirKazum]

Monte Cook’s Book of Eldritch Might III has rules for that. There is a class for intelligent items (a sort of lesser sorcerer class) but the item can only get the xp that its master gives it from its own pool.

Cool! How does it work?

[Flickerdart]

Yes, but in 3.5 it's still not playable because it doesn't have a Level Adjustment.

That was never a requirement set forth in the OP.

[SirKazum]

That was never a requirement set forth in the OP.

Indeed, it's not meant as a PC.

[Clistenes]

Cool! How does it work?

You give a portion of your XP to your intelligent item, and it gains hp, bonus saves, attack bonus (because some intelligent weapons can levitate and attack on their own), skill points, feats (special intellligent item feats that give it new abilities like speech, telepathy, telekinesis and flight) and 1/day spell-like abilities.

The "class" has 20 levels an can grant up to one 9th arcane spell-like ability, two 8th level spell-like abilities, three 7th spell-like abilities, three 6th spell-like abilities, four 5th spell-like abilities and five spell-like abilities from each level from 0 to 4th.

It is in the fourth chapter.

[Segev]

Provided it could receive the training, I see no reason why it couldn't gain its first level in a PC class, mechanically speaking. It's a creature. It should probably go for a full-manifester class, just because its ability to do anything with other classes' features is questionable at best.

For a PC, I'd make him pay for himself as a magic item out of his starting gold. If he's too low level for his WBL to cover it, I'd work something out with him. In either case, a discount is likely in order because part of the mechanical reason for the cost is that it's giving "you" bonus actions in the action economy by letting your items activate themselves. Therefore, it'd be less balanced to make you pay for your own ability to take actions at all.