Easy way to be immune/resistant to sleep?

[Malimar]

I'm DMing. My players were level 8 (now 9): a barbarian/bloodrager, a sorcerer/bard, a rogue/cavalier, a bloodrager, a witch, and a summoner. The only problem is the witch, with her slumber hex, which I normally challenge by liberally sprinkling dungeons with undead, plants, elves, and other immune foes (while still leaving enough sleep-susceptible monsters to make the witch feel badass some of the time).

But now the party has recently gotten entangled with a rakshasa mafia, who are, as the name implies, mostly rakshasas. I threw a single common rakshasa at them, expecting them to have a lot of trouble with his sky-high AC (having prepped by casting mage armor and shield), spell resistance, and DR, but I failed to take into account his relatively unspectacular Will save. One slumber hex and coup de grâce later, what I expected to be a minor boss battle was over in the first round. So I threw another rakshasa at them as they were fleeing the area, but they successfully slumber hexed him, too.

But! The rakshasa mafia was watching the whole thing with scrying, plus the party left the second rakshasa alive, so now the rakshasas know that the witch with her slumber hex is the most dangerous party member.

Now I figure the leader of the rakshasa mafia will probably be or include one or more liches, so the final boss of the rakshasa mafia arc should still be a decent fight. And they might just send rakshasa goons at the party two or more at a time (to wake each other up and thereby only lose a couple turns to the Slumber), because the witch doesn't have Split Hex yet, though I think two rakshasas really would be a tough fight for this party at this point (even if they do kit themselves out with good&piercing weapons).

But my main thought, which I want to investigate: what if the rakshasas just equipped their goons with potions or items rendering them immune or resistant to sleep effects? So my main question is: what might provide this effect? The first thing that springs to mind is a potion of owl's wisdom for an extra +2 to will, but there's gotta be something better out there. Thoughts?

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, that's easy. Bring a really minor minion (a dominated fiendish rat or something). Why? Well, look at The Hex in Question (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/common-hexes/hex-slumber-su):


Effect: A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level.

This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
(emphasis added)

So if it's expected, a CR 1/2 or less critter - such as a familiar - can simply wake the minion with a readied action. And then that minion is immune for a day.

Alternately: A witch of their own with the same hex. Make the minions sleep for a few rounds prior to battle, and then the minion is immune to the Slumber hex for a full day. Even better: It's an at-will for the 'pet' Witch.

[Sedalb]

Maybe Cloaks of Resistance? Head bands of wisdom?

[Hazrond]

Alternately: A witch of their own with the same hex. Make the minions sleep for a few rounds prior to battle, and then the minion is immune to the Slumber hex for a full day. Even better: It's an at-will for the 'pet' Witch.

From what i know of Witch hexes, they are a "per witch" thing, for instance with a coven of say... 6 witches you easily heal an entire town of people using the Healing Hex

Edit: BTW, the hex works "as per the spell Sleep" so giving them a simple Protection from X spell would work due to Sleep being a (Compulsion), however, you need the right tyype against the witch's alignment, and this only works if the witch is not True Neutral

[Harmelyo]

Alternately: A witch of their own with the same hex. Make the minions sleep for a few rounds prior to battle, and then the minion is immune to the Slumber hex for a full day. Even better: It's an at-will for the 'pet' Witch.

This won't work alas. A slumber hex cast by another witch is not the same "hex" as the one your 'pet' Witch cast. It may be a bit of a bad practice but here is a link to a thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n1dr?Witch-question-Hex-Inoculation)treating of this process.

EDIT: sword saged!

[Hazrond]

But my main thought, which I want to investigate: what if the rakshasas just equipped their goons with potions or items rendering them immune or resistant to sleep effects? So my main question is: what might provide this effect? The first thing that springs to mind is a potion of owl's wisdom for an extra +2 to will, but there's gotta be something better out there. Thoughts? Homebrew potions that make them immune? That would leave a bit of a bad taste in my mouth however, this would be slightly better because its completely legal and explainable :smallwink:, also, it gives a way for the witch to get around it. Dispel Magic to dispel the effect once theyy realize whats happening, or if its a magic item to suppress its abilities. Should work well i should think. :smallamused:


BTW, the hex works "as per the spell Sleep" so giving them a simple Protection from X spell would work due to Sleep being a (Compulsion), however, you need the right type against the witch's alignment, and this only works if the witch is not True Neutral

I hope that helps! :smallbiggrin:

[Malimar]

Oh, that's easy. Bring a really minor minion (a dominated fiendish rat or something). Why? Well, look at The Hex in Question (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/common-hexes/hex-slumber-su):(emphasis added)

So if it's expected, a CR 1/2 or less critter - such as a familiar - can simply wake the minion with a readied action. And then that minion is immune for a day.

This notion briefly crossed my mind, and I'm not sure why I rejected it. The image of rakshasa tiger-men wading into battle with trained monkeys on their shoulders, ready to shake them awake, it amuses me. Especially as it's a low-magic solution to a high-magic problem.


Maybe Cloaks of Resistance? Head bands of wisdom?

Not a bad idea. I don't want to do this too much, because any such items will, of course, end up in the party's hands, and we don't want to flood the PC market with Cloaks of Resistance. On the other hand, getting the entire party kitted out in Cloaks of Resistance wouldn't actually be the worst thing -- they haven't actually been spending their WBL, which has mostly been coming in the form of raw cash and accumulating unspent in the party fund, so handing them usable items might be a good change of pace.

On the other hand, the Headband of Inspired Wisdom has almost the opposite problem -- nobody in the party uses Wisdom for anything. They'll probably still wear them rather than selling them to buy something useful, but it won't do them much good.


Edit: BTW, the hex works "as per the spell Sleep" so giving them a simple Protection from X spell would work due to Sleep being a (Compulsion), however, you need the right tyype against the witch's alignment, and this only works if the witch is not True Neutral
Pretty sure the witch is, in fact, True Neutral. But I don't think that clause of protection from X actually requires the caster of the [compulsion] to be X, so it would still work! But the FAQ on the Protection from Evil pfsrd page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protection-from-evil) sez
protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion.So that doesn't seem to work.


From what i know of Witch hexes, they are a "per witch" thing, for instance with a coven of say... 6 witches you easily heal an entire town of people using the Healing Hex

This won't work alas. A slumber hex cast by another witch is not the same "hex" as the one your 'pet' Witch cast. It may be a bit of a bad practice but here is a link to a thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n1dr?Witch-question-Hex-Inoculation)treating of this process.
This is my interpretation as well.


Homebrew potions that make them immune? That would leave a bit of a bad taste in my mouth however, this would be slightly better because its completely legal and explainable :smallwink:, also, it gives a way for the witch to get around it. Dispel Magic to dispel the effect once theyy realize whats happening, or if its a magic item to suppress its abilities. Should work well i should think. :smallamused:

This was the other reason I wanted it to be potions rather than more permanent magic items: so the PCs can dispel it (assuming they've got dispel magic prepared -- I'm not certain whether they do, as they haven't had occasion to use it lately), turning it from a one-round win that consumes no resources to a two-round fight with more element of risk that at least consumes a spell.

If I did homebrew such an effect, I would probably give the players access to it -- leaving a scroll of protection from sleep or whatever in a rakshasa's loot somewhere and let the PCs learn it if they want.



I think I'll go with a combination of the monkey plan and the Cloak of Resistance plan, with maybe a few Headbands of Inspired Wisdom and potions of owl's wisdom thrown in for seasoning.

And then if the party takes too many weeks to go after the rakshasa mafia, perhaps the rakshasa bosses will wind up researching a new spell as per the Independent Research rules, and the minions will be equipped with potions and scrolls of protection from sleep.

Thanks!

[Grod_The_Giant]

3.5 has Rouse, a 1st level Sorcerer/Wizard spell that wakes up everyone in a 10ft burst. Easy enough to give that to any rakshasa (with their sorcerer casting) that come in pairs. Or via contingency, if they're high enough level. Or a familiar/other minion with a wand.

[Platymus Pus]

Find a way for them to be treated as elves for sleep effects?

[skypse]

So your Witch PC has a build that sleeps 1 creature per round and you want to shut her down completely? Why not just tell him: "stop using your slumber or every NPC from now on will be immune to sleep effects".
Saves are there for a reason. He uses a standard action and he should be able to take something out of it. Shutting him down like that is plain bad. Sorry, but if you can't deal with your party without using DM cheese, you should've told them not to play specific things.

[Spore]

Hire an Alchemist to hand out Polypupose Panacea to your lieutenants:


Wakefulness: You remain awake for 2 hours without feeling sleepy, and without side effects such as jitteriness. You gain a +5 resistance bonus against sleep-related spells such as lullaby and sleep. This use of the panacea merely delays your need for sleep and does not count as rest or sleep. You can use it multiple times in succession, but as each effect wears off, you are as tired as you would be had you not used the panacea.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polypurpose-panacea

Either as potions or as 1st level extracts (via Infusion Discovery requiring the Alchemist being 4th level or higher).

Have your own witches or inquisitors cast Hex Ward:


Duration: 1 hour/level
You give the target a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws against witch hexes.

This way you can send guys with will save +3 against your group and not have him shut down instantly. +12 is still a fairly big failure chance. Maybe give them Iron Will as a feat or dip classes with high will saves for melees.

Or combine both effects. The bonusses are untyped and should stack.

[the clumsy bard]

If you want a small boost to saves read small boost there is an item from Reign of Winter Player's Guide.

It can be found here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Hex%20Nail)

They are nice because they automatically activate when targeted by a hex.

Therefore make perfect sense to have enemies of a witch to carry at most times.

Also with some clever planning the witch can find about them and then start targeting them with hexes the dont care about to make the nails get used up and then use the slumber afterwards.

Its not a guaranteed nerf, but gives a small-ish boost that is useful and one shot.

Worst case it will make them plan to use the slumber curse 1 round later.

[the clumsy bard]

Sorry to post after my own post, but...

It goes without saying that if a mafia style family is having issues with someone specifically you think they'd hire outside help.

Can't handle someone who sleeps most of your crew.

Hire an Elvish hitman(woman) or half Elvish hitman(woman).

[QuidEst]

Elves and half-elves are immune to magical sleep. But they're fighting Rakshasas, you say? Rakshasas have at-will Alter Self. While it won't grant them the elven immunities, they can still look like elves. Mix a few real elves and/or half-elves in just to make things confusing.

Bleed damage will keep a creature awake, but it's pretty meta-gamey. (Also, Rakshasas have great DR, so it's a little harder to inflict minor damage on them.)

The Slumber hex is based on Sleep, so it's an enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting] ability. The Seducer's Bane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/seducer-s-bane) item is amazing. Appear to fail a save, and then when somebody goes to set up the coup-de-grace, run them through. Cap of the Free Thinker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cap-of-the-free-thinker) is also great. This is the Rakshasa mafia, so one precaution they may have taken is a minor curse on the items that deals one point of damage per round. They can't give it to any minions, but they're protected from it by their amazing DR.

Custom magic or items that makes spell resistance apply against supernatural abilities (call it a third-level spell, ten minutes per level when cast). Have them spend the money and time in-game to research it. Maybe they lay low while working on it.

If this is the Rakshasa mafia, have them make it personal as far as the witch is concerned. Get leverage on her, or use their magical disguises to get her in trouble with the law.

[Gurifu]

Honestly, I think outright banning the slumber hex is better than any "yes, buts" to do with it. It's not unreasonably overpowered, but it seems to hurt any game it's used in. Unlimited casts per day of a level-appropriate save-or-lose is strong enough that players with access to it are going to use it whenever they can and buff it as much as they can, so there's no decision-making involved. Doing the exact same standard action every round with no positioning tactics beyond "get in range of Slumber Hex" isn't fun for anybody.

Having everybody who expects to ever be fighting Witches (which should be basically everybody, unless you're in an extremely low-magic campaign) pack a minion with a readied action to rouse them works, and it makes sense from an in-universe perspective, but that's not fun for anybody, either - it's just a soft ban on the ability... after the player has invested in it.