Giant Frog Animal Companion

[CyberWyld]

bit of debate going on right now. The Giant Frog monster has touch listed in its' melee attack for his tongue attack. The Animal Companion version doesn't. Does this mean the Giant Frog Animal Companion Tongue attack goes against regular AC? Or are we reading something wrong here? Thanks guys!

[Jack_Simth]

bit of debate going on right now. The Giant Frog monster has touch listed in its' melee attack for his tongue attack. The Animal Companion version doesn't. Does this mean the Giant Frog Animal Companion Tongue attack goes against regular AC? Or are we reading something wrong here? Thanks guys!

Pathfinder animal companions work differently than they do in 3.5.
With 3.5, you have the base animal as in the Monster Manual, and add Druid benefits on top of that (with adjustments for alternate companions).
With Pathfinder, you have a specific stat block that is the base animal companion, and add Druid benefits on top of that. The big difference being that the specific stat block for the base animal companion is very much not the same as the animal used as inspiration. For an extreme example, consider the Allosaurus Monster Entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dinosaur/allosaurus) to the Animal Companion Entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions#TOC-Allosaurus).

So the animal companion giant frog? It works exactly like the animal companion entry for it says it does, not how the monster entry says it does.

[Psyren]

In the Bestiary entry (B1 pg. 135) the giant frog animal companion block refers back to the main frog's stat block for determining how the "tongue" Ex special quality works. This means that the companion GF's tongue would also be a touch attack. Keep in mind, however, that all this ability does is give the frog a chance at making a free grapple attempt - after succeeding at the touch, it still has to roll the grapple normally, i.e. pitting its CMB against the target's CMD. In addition, the "grab" ability that the tongue bestows has the same limitations as a normal "grab" - i.e. the frog cannot use it to hold onto anything larger than he is.

[CyberWyld]

Hey thanks guys. So I make a 15 ft touch attack. If I hit, I get a to immediately initiate a grapple (against a medium or smaller creature) and if I succeed the target is grappled but NOT the frog? Correct?

[Psyren]

Hey thanks guys. So I make a 15 ft touch attack. If I hit, I get a to immediately initiate a grapple (against a medium or smaller creature) and if I succeed the target is grappled but NOT the frog? Correct?

Correct, only the target will have the "grappled" condition.

[CyberWyld]

Playing last night. Had some questions about legality here. The DM and I were not in agreement.

Giant Frog mount, Medium Size. His rider, Grippli, Small size.

Some point in combat rider gets unseated. Giant Frog uses tongue to grab rider, pull him to his mouth, and hop away. My argument was that all of that was possible in one round due to the giant frog Tongue Ability, Grab, and Pull and RAW for these. DM argued that the rider could be grappled and pulled, but not placed in mouth of frog and not moved until next round.

Help appreciated.

[Psyren]

Short answer: Your GM is correct (under normal circumstances.)
Longer answer: If your frog has the "Greater Grapple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-grapple-combat---final)" feat, it could perform the action you describe and save you all in one round.

Full answer:

The reason your GM is correct is that, to flee with you, your frog would be trying to perform the "Move" grapple action with its target (i.e. you), which is a standard action. (Specifically, it is part of the standard action to maintain the grapple, thus it would have to wait until next round unless he had a second standard action somehow.) Grapple rules:


If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
...
Move

You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Both the tongue attack to grab you, and the move-maintain-grapple action, are standard actions. Thus your frog would have to wait until the next round to do the latter under normal circumstances. If however your frog has Greater Grapple, it can nab you with its tongue as a standard action and then roll to maintain as a move action in that same round (presumably you are lowering your CMD voluntarily to let it move you as easily as possible) allowing it to hop away up to half its speed with you in its mouth.

(Note that while it refers to "opponent" above, that is due to the assumption that grapples are intended to be offensive actions against enemy targets.)

[CyberWyld]

Thanks Psy! I'll pass this along.

[CyberWyld]

The part that was confusing me with this was the wording with pull. Saying that it allowed for a FREE CMB check. I was taking that as a free action there to still have my move action available.

[Psyren]

The part that was confusing me with this was the wording with pull. Saying that it allowed for a FREE CMB check. I was taking that as a free action there to still have my move action available.

Your frog does have its move action available. But you can't use the move action to make a grapple check without Greater Grapple because grapple checks are standard actions.

With Greater Grapple: Frog tongues you (standard), Pulls you closer (free action, neither of you provokes), hops away with you up to half its speed (move action.)
Without Greater Grapple: Frog tongues you (standard), Pulls you closer (free action, neither of you provokes), has to wait until next turn to perform the "Move" grapple action (standard action.)

Otherwise what it could do is pull you closer, then drop you as a free action and hop away without you.

[CyberWyld]

As always, thanks Psy!

[CyberWyld]

Dealing with the same char.acter but looking for suggestions. I purchased a cloak of arachnidia to ensure that I could charge even in tight quarters. (Along walls, ceilings) any suggestion for staying in the saddle? :)


DM is requiring a 25 DC ride check to stay in saddle if charging upside down. That too steep for an 8th lvl beast rider cavalier?

Thanks as always!!!