Could someone explain Veldrina's class?

[Calavera]

I follow OotS with a very basic understanding of D&D and no real need to get in depth, so when a new character class, a "favored soul" appears I tried to just get an overview, and how it's different from a Cleric. All I find online are either graphs and tables or arguments that imply the reader already has a much greater understanding. Could someone explain the class in basic terms and how it is better and worse than a Cleric?

[Keltest]

A favored soul is to a cleric like a sorcerer is to a wizard. They don't need to sit down and pray each morning to fill their spell slots, they can cast a set number of each spell level in a day, and they can pick from any spell of that level that they have learned. They are called "spontaneous" casters as they decide what spell theyre going to cast on the spot, spontaneously, rather than picking it in the morning and preparing it. Unlike clerics however they do not have immediate access to every spell at the spell level to choose from. They are also incapable of turning undead, and use their charisma for bonus spell slots rather than wisdom.

The spontaneity of their spells means they do not need to anticipate any given situation, but if they lack a certain spell, then they cant just track down a scroll for it and learn it like wizards can. However they can USE scrolls like clerics, so Veldrina could presumably cast a scroll of resurrection were Durkon to scribe one for her.

[veti]

However they can USE scrolls like clerics, so Veldrina could presumably cast a scroll of resurrection were Durkon to scribe one for her.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict, he's not going to do that...

Although I wonder how he'd react if Roy suggested it?

[dancrilis]

Although I wonder how he'd react if Roy suggested it?

Probably by pointing out that it would take two and a half days.

[Morquard]

Also by pointing out that he's missing the Scribe Scroll feat.

[Keltest]

Also by pointing out that he's missing the Scribe Scroll feat.

V however, is not, and item creation rules allow for assistance (and at times require it) from characters who possess the missing prerequisites.

That said, it seems unlikely that Roy would suggest scribing a scroll at this point, as he sees a bunch o clerics able to resurrect Durkon just over the horizon.

Which brings up an interesting point. Whats the HPoH going to do once he gets there? Presumably he wont reveal himself, since doing so would basically cause Roy to kill him out of reflex, but he also cant let the clerics just resurrect him.

[Morquard]

The thing is they could have done it like that the whole time: V scribes the scroll with Durkons help, Haley casts the spell with Use Magic Device.
Or honestly any level 1 cleric casts it from the scroll, they don't even need to make a check or anything

So either Scribe Scroll does not work like that in OOTSverse or nobody came up with that idea so far. Since V is arcane and Durkon is divine caster, its possible they aren't compatible for "shared scroll scribing". It could end up as a Arcane Resurrection scroll, which is something no class could cast.

[Psyren]

I follow OotS with a very basic understanding of D&D and no real need to get in depth, so when a new character class, a "favored soul" appears I tried to just get an overview, and how it's different from a Cleric. All I find online are either graphs and tables or arguments that imply the reader already has a much greater understanding. Could someone explain the class in basic terms and how it is better and worse than a Cleric?

As others have said, they are spontaneous divine casters, much like a sorcerer is a spontaneous version of a wizard (i.e. they do not have to prepare their spells ahead of time, but the tradeoff for that is that they only have a limited array of spells known they can store in their heads.)

The main things you need to know about them as they relate to Veldrina specifically are:

1) Their primary casting attribute is Charisma, not Wisdom. (They do benefit from a high wisdom, but it isn't strictly required for them to use magic at all the way it is for a cleric - and Veldrina's appears to be pretty low as a result.) This presumably is the reason for Veldrina's very naive and trusting attitude. Several skills that make you more perceptive of potential danger (particularly Sense Motive) key off of Wisdom, so it's a fairly safe bet that had she been a cleric, she would not be so immediately accepting of Darkon's unusual circumstance, or blabbing about her secret mission left and right.

2) They cannot access the entire cleric spell list the way a normal cleric can. This relates to the point I made in the opening paragraph - spontaneous spellcasters in D&D have the advantage of not needing to prepare their spells in advance (and thus do not run the risk of having the wrong spells prepared for a given challenge, wasting them) - however, the tradeoff for this is that they typically must choose some smaller subset of all the spells their class can learn, and only cast from that subset, lowering their overall versatility. For Veldrina, this means that despite being a very high-level spellcaster (who knows at least 7th-level cleric spells), she happens not to know the one spell Roy is actually looking for, i.e. Resurrection. A normal cleric could simply ask that they return the following day and pray for that spell overnight, because they can access the entire cleric spell list; a favored soul meanwhile would have to wait until the next time she gained a level to attempt to learn that spell, which could be days, weeks, months or even years into the future.

[Sermil]

As others have said, they are spontaneous divine casters, much like a sorcerer is a spontaneous version of a wizard (i.e. they do not have to prepare their spells ahead of time, but the tradeoff for that is that they only have a limited array of spells known they can store in their heads.)

Psyren explained the mechanics well, so I don't have anything to add.

From a more storytelling perspective, the difference between a Favored Soul and a Cleric is that a cleric is part of a church hierarchy. He or she is ordained by the church, and to a large extent has power because the church accepted them, not because the god chose them. Obviously, the ultimate source of a cleric's power is their god, but the god basically sets up the church and the power is somewhat given to the clerics on autopilot. A cleric might go their whole career without having a direct experience of their god.

A Favored Soul, on the other hand, gets her or his power from a direct relationship with their god. Their god literally decided to favor that person with divine power. They are therefore outside the church hierarchy, going around them to directly commune with the god who loves them.

Think of it like the medieval Catholic Church (or, at least, like said Church thought of itself). There's a big hierarchy of priests, bishops, cardinals, and a pope. They can (in medieval theology) legitimately perform miracles by virtue of their position -- a village priest can legitimately turn bread into the Body of Christ, not because the priest is a super-holy person, but just because he was ordained. That's a D&D Cleric. A Favored Soul is more like a saint or biblical prophet, someone who has a direct relation to God. That person may or may not be part of the church hierarchy, and may even be opposed to it, but is still able to perform miracles because God is directly intervening on his or her behalf.

Also, like priests vs medieval saint, there are many, many more Clerics than Favored Souls. Encountering a Favored Soul are a rare, rare experience.

[Porthos]

Side track, but I wanted to address this point quickly:


The thing is they could have done it like that the whole time: V scribes the scroll with Durkons help, Haley casts the spell with Use Magic Device.
Or honestly any level 1 cleric casts it from the scroll, they don't even need to make a check or anything

Both of these have been suggested as "obvious" solutions. Problem is, the check would be non-trivial for Haley (see the blowing up wand to show that she still isn't perfect at UMD). Even a Cleric needs to make a caster level check to cast a spell beyond its level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)

So the chance of failure is enough not to want to flush 10,000 gp down the drain (not to mention the now unavaialbe due to being dead high level cleric). Or at least make the argument against it.

[Doug Lampert]

Both of these have been suggested as "obvious" solutions. Problem is, the check would be non-trivial for Haley (see the blowing up wand to show that she still isn't perfect at UMD). Even a Cleric needs to make a caster level check to cast a spell beyond its level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)

So the chance of failure is enough not to want to flush 10,000 gp down the drain. Or at least make the argument against it.

Hmm, ninja'd by Porthos editing his post! Foiled again.

It's not the chance of flushing 10,000 GP down the drain that makes it a total no-go. It's that if a mishap happens and the scroll is destroyed and you CAN'T make another. Because step one of ATTEMPTING to use the first scroll is "Kill the only guy we have who can help someone make this scroll in the first place."

If you have a different cleric able to make a second scroll, then you don't need the scroll. So you need to make a minimum of 2 scrolls for a scroll to be even worth considering. Each takes three days to make, each costs 10,000 GP in diamonds, 1137.5 GP in other components, and 91 XP from V.

Total cost: 22,275 GP, 182 XP from V, 6 days from both V and the HPoH.

Do they even have the components for two resurrect scrolls? I doubt it. Do they have six days? Maybe, but there are a bunch of clerics closer who'll presumably do it for 10,910 GP and long enough to cast the spell rather than 22,275 GP and six+ days.

[factotum]

Do they even have the components for two resurrect scrolls? I doubt it. Do they have six days? Maybe

I think the time is a far more difficult problem than the money (we already know they can find 43,000gp to fix the Mechane, another 50% on top for the scrolls surely isn't beyond the bounds of reason especially when Haley could afford to buy a number of magic wands). 6 days when they have no idea how close Xykon is to Kraagor's Gate, or how long the ritual will take to control it once he gets there? That's a much more difficult ask.

[Yendor]

Problem is, the check would be non-trivial for Haley (see the blowing up wand to show that she still isn't perfect at UMD). Even a Cleric needs to make a caster level check to cast a spell beyond its level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)

So the chance of failure is enough not to want to flush 10,000 gp down the drain (not to mention the now unavaialbe due to being dead high level cleric). Or at least make the argument against it.

As well as an ability score requirement, which if you don't meet will need a DC 32 UMD check in this case. Haley might not have the skill high enough to make that even possible, and no way does she have 17 Wisdom.

[dancrilis]

As well as an ability score requirement, which if you don't meet will need a DC 32 UMD check in this case. Haley might not have the skill high enough to make that even possible, and no way does she have 17 Wisdom.

I wouldn't worry about that given that to cast the spell at all it is a minimum check of 33 she has to pass (likely more if Durkon prepared the spell: 20+caster level).

The only way the scroll plan would work in my mind is if they had considered it at the start of the trip, prepared the some scrolls in advance on the trip over (depending on how long that took), and have some caster level boosting items for clerics in town to use to help them (such as the Ioun Stone they found).
But even had it been suggested earlier Durkon as busy researching his Protection from Daylight spell (the more logical item for him to focus on as they did not know they were stopping to see about raising him) so he would not have had the time to engage on the creation.

[veti]

But even had it been suggested earlier Durkon as busy researching his Protection from Daylight spell (the more logical item for him to focus on as they did not know they were stopping to see about raising him) so he would not have had the time to engage on the creation.

If "Durkon" were sincere in his desire to return to life, the more logical thing for him to be researching would be a spell that facilitates that, by, e.g., purging the negative energy from his body and allowing a regular "Raise Dead" to work. Or that allows him to cast a Resurrection on himself with delayed effect, so that he could cast it before dying. "Research" opens a lot of possibilities.

[Keltest]

If "Durkon" were sincere in his desire to return to life, the more logical thing for him to be researching would be a spell that facilitates that, by, e.g., purging the negative energy from his body and allowing a regular "Raise Dead" to work. Or that allows him to cast a Resurrection on himself with delayed effect, so that he could cast it before dying. "Research" opens a lot of possibilities.

Durkon does not really have the resources necessary to pursue that route. Certainly not in the time it would take them to just find a cleric who can cast Resurrection.

[Deliverance]

1) Their primary casting attribute is Charisma, not Wisdom. (They do benefit from a high wisdom, but it isn't strictly required for them to use magic at all the way it is for a cleric - and Veldrina's appears to be pretty low as a result.) This presumably is the reason for Veldrina's very naive and trusting attitude. Several skills that make you more perceptive of potential danger (particularly Sense Motive) key off of Wisdom, so it's a fairly safe bet that had she been a cleric, she would not be so immediately accepting of Darkon's unusual circumstance, or blabbing about her secret mission left and right.

I'm not sure we should be so quick to draw conclusions about Veldrina's wisdom based on her personality.

Being paranoid about the world, alert for danger, and suspicious of others' motives has more to do with job, world view, and experiences than whether a character is either intelligent or wise, and we don't know enough about Veldrina's background to judge why she acts the way she does.

While low wisdom is one possible explanation for her behaviour, one alternative could be that she was an optimistic and curious person, whose life hasn't revolved around life or death situations, doing unto others as she'd like them to do unto her. Perhaps she's led a sheltered life in the elven lands? Perhaps she considers this secrecy silly? Perhaps she's absentminded? Perhaps she likes to tease Wrecan?

Of course, her being a favoured soul, it is also possible that her life has revolved around life or death situations, but her Goddess has got her back and/or she's got the power to deal with it when some of the things she's curious about attempt to bite her outstretched hand rather than take it as a friend.



Favoured Soul has always struck me as a class that is much more appropriate for NPCs than PCs, because it allows for more epic storytelling than what is too often the case with PCs, where it is often treated as just another class name with attached stat bundle. So when I see a Favoured Soul in OOTS, my assumption is that I'll be seeing a person who is more than merely a spontaneously casting cleric that uses another primary casting attribute, a person who for better and worse has a closer personal connection to her Goddess than e.g. Durkon had to Thor.

[Sermil]

I'm not sure we should be so quick to draw conclusions about Veldrina's wisdom based on her personality.

Yes, let's remember that when Belkar was granted a higher wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), he became less violent. And it was explicitly stated that normal Belkar has an extremely low wisdom.

So if low wisdom = Belkar, then someone with a high wisdom should be the opposite of Belkar e.g. non-violent and preferring to trust people. Of course, not understanding that there are no dumpling and never were is a sign of a low... something but it might be a low int.

[Porthos]

Yes, let's remember that when Belkar was granted a higher wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), he became less violent. And it was explicitly stated that normal Belkar has an extremely low wisdom.

So if low wisdom = Belkar, then someone with a high wisdom should be the opposite of Belkar e.g. non-violent and preferring to trust people. Of course, not understanding that there are no dumpling and never were is a sign of a low... something but it might be a low int.

All that means is a wiser Belkar is a less violent Belkar. It doesn't imply anything about other people with high WIS scores.

[goodpeople25]

Yes, let's remember that when Belkar was granted a higher wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), he became less violent. And it was explicitly stated that normal Belkar has an extremely low wisdom.

So if low wisdom = Belkar, then someone with a high wisdom should be the opposite of Belkar e.g. non-violent and preferring to trust people. Of course, not understanding that there are no dumpling and never were is a sign of a low... something but it might be a low int.
That strip is hardly good grounds for a convincing argument, next we will start taking what Belkar says in the last panel completely seriously. But in all seriousness that strip is not a good view of how wisdom scores work.

[137beth]

That strip is hardly good grounds for a convincing argument, next we will start taking what Belkar says in the last panel completely seriously. But in all seriousness that strip is not a good view of how wisdom scores work.

It was also the first book, before the story got serious.

[goodpeople25]

It was also the first book, before the story got serious.
Yeah that was pretty much what i was saying.

[factotum]

Of course, her being a favoured soul, it is also possible that her life has revolved around life or death situations, but her Goddess has got her back and/or she's got the power to deal with it when some of the things she's curious about attempt to bite her outstretched hand rather than take it as a friend.


That would be my take on it, too--since Veldrina is favoured of her Goddess, the Goddess in question intervenes (as far as she's able, obviously) to rescue her from sticky situations. She's therefore never really been in danger in her life and has a certain naivety because of it.

[SavageWombat]

I dunno - the scroll thing seems like something Rich might want to disabuse in conversation. It seems like an obvious workaround. Makes me wonder what "reason" Durkula will come up with to explain why it won't work.

[Keltest]

I dunno - the scroll thing seems like something Rich might want to disabuse in conversation. It seems like an obvious workaround. Makes me wonder what "reason" Durkula will come up with to explain why it won't work.

I believe the part where it doesn't have a high enough success rate for the number of scrolls they could have penned to this point with their resources would be an adequate explanation. If haley blows the UMD check, they cant scribe another, and theyre in the same situation only with one less cleric helping out.

From a narrative standpoint, we have only ever seen V scribe scrolls, and while we have seen Durkon USE scrolls occasionally, theres nothing to indicate he has the ability to make them himself in the story. Only people familiar with D&D would know that its even an option, and they would be able to figure out that it isn't an especially good one just like we did.

That said, its up to Rich what he feels needs to be spelled out as not viable.

[Porthos]

I dunno - the scroll thing seems like something Rich might want to disabuse in conversation. It seems like an obvious workaround. Makes me wonder what "reason" Durkula will come up with to explain why it won't work.

:roy: Hey, waitaminute. Haley's been practicing at wands and scrolls. Why don't we have her try to-
:haley: BANG!!!!
:vaarsuvius: No, my left. Move the hand to my left.
:roy: Ah, right.
:roy: Still, we can have a cleric read it. They should have a much higher chance to read it correctly.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png Ach, laddie. I'm willin ta die if I know if tha is nah a chance at it faillin. But if there but be even a chance oot it naught workin'... We cannae take the risk. Not with tha whole world at stake.
:roy: Oh come on now, Durkon. What are the chances of a mid-level Cleric blowing a simple caster check like that?
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/DurkonVampire_zps6711c6b8.png In this comic?
:roy: (disgusted look on his face) Right. What was I thinking?

[Psyren]

I'm not sure we should be so quick to draw conclusions about Veldrina's wisdom based on her personality.

Being paranoid about the world, alert for danger, and suspicious of others' motives has more to do with job, world view, and experiences than whether a character is either intelligent or wise, and we don't know enough about Veldrina's background to judge why she acts the way she does.

While low wisdom is one possible explanation for her behaviour, one alternative could be that she was an optimistic and curious person, whose life hasn't revolved around life or death situations, doing unto others as she'd like them to do unto her. Perhaps she's led a sheltered life in the elven lands? Perhaps she considers this secrecy silly? Perhaps she's absentminded? Perhaps she likes to tease Wrecan?

Of course, her being a favoured soul, it is also possible that her life has revolved around life or death situations, but her Goddess has got her back and/or she's got the power to deal with it when some of the things she's curious about attempt to bite her outstretched hand rather than take it as a friend.

It's indeed possible that she's wise (or at least more perceptive than she's letting on) and that all this dithering and comedic natter is masking keen insight of some kind. I won't rule out the possibility; I can only judge her based on what we've seen so far though.


Favoured Soul has always struck me as a class that is much more appropriate for NPCs than PCs, because it allows for more epic storytelling than what is too often the case with PCs, where it is often treated as just another class name with attached stat bundle. So when I see a Favoured Soul in OOTS, my assumption is that I'll be seeing a person who is more than merely a spontaneously casting cleric that uses another primary casting attribute, a person who for better and worse has a closer personal connection to her Goddess than e.g. Durkon had to Thor.

Being close to your deity doesn't necessarily make you wise though. After all, deities themselves are not necessarily wise either. Mythology is full of figures (particularly fey ones) that would be considered divine in D&D terms, yet behave shortsighted, naive, fickle, or flighty. And given that her own elven goddess is "very minor," I'm leading more towards hers being one of those.

In short, she can indeed be very close to her goddess (and in fact, she almost certainly is since she is traveling to the "high priest-only gathering") but that doesn't necessarily mean she's particularly well-equipped to outwit a vampire, especially not one who is a high priest himself.

[Doug Lampert]

I dunno - the scroll thing seems like something Rich might want to disabuse in conversation. It seems like an obvious workaround. Makes me wonder what "reason" Durkula will come up with to explain why it won't work.

Why is the word reason in scare quotes above?

There are multiple perfectly good reasons it's a MUCH WORSE idea than looking for a cleric, it's a much worse idea than going out of your way a day or two to look for a cleric. It's a really stunningly bad idea. We'll make a scroll, that takes several days and lots of money. Then we'll make another if we have any sense, so we're up to six days, assuming that we can get all the components instantly.

Then I'll let you kill me. Then Haley will attempt to hit DC 33 on UMD (for the minimum caster level of 13) and DC 32 on a separate roll (for the minimum 17 wisdom).

Because of course Haley not being 100% on the DC 20 of a wand makes us completely confident that she'll now hit DC 33 and 32 in succession (note that a natural 1 does not autofail UMD, it simply has additional effects on a failure). If Haley rolls a one on either she can't use that scroll for a day, and if she rolls a 1 on the DC 33 check then there's a mishap and we need that second scroll.

So, once this fails miserably, we'll take the remaining scroll and look for a cleric to use the scroll, and the cleric will try to hit the DC 14 caster level check, which we know he can miss because anyone not able to miss it could just cast it herself.

Or since Resurrect is on the Favored Soul list, and this elf we've just met CLAIMS she could cast it if she knew it (and thus has the caster level), we could ask her to use the scroll (with no chance of failure).

Except she won't be here because she's got a VITAL appointment with a bunch of high level clerics one day from now, and THOSE clerics are semi-on our way and able to cast the spell, cheaper than making a scroll, faster than making a scroll, more reliably than making a scroll. Oh, and ROY just offered to transport her there, so tomorrow we'll be with those high level clerics regardless of what happens with any hypothetical scrolls.

So why are we thinking about making a scroll again? Seriously, why is this even on the table? We want to take 6x as long for a (much) more expensive and (much) less reliable method? When the alternative method requires that we go where Roy just committed us to go anyway.

[JT]

And on top of all of that, the SRD (above) for casting from scrolls says this about their creation...

The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.

So, if Durkon and Vaarsuvius cooperated to create the scroll, D could provide the divine spell, but the scroll created would be arcane, since it was written by V. Certainly up to house interpretation, but I'd say you end up with an expensive piece of parchment.

[Psyren]

Making the scroll also requires the same material component as casting the spell normally. They only have enough diamond dust left for one scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html), and the little they do have is in Durkula's possession - easy enough to "misplace" if this scroll talk were ever to surface seriously.

[veti]

If a "favoured soul" is meant to be analogous to a "prophet", then it does seem more like an NPC class, because a prophet has no real agenda of their own - their role is as a mouthpiece for their god, which would be kinda dull to roleplay in most circumstances.

It also seems likely that clerics and favoured souls - wouldn't get along, to say the least.

A cleric lives in a dangerous world, works hard and studies hard, learns to fit in and politick their way up the hierarchy until they find a nice cosy spot that suits their temperament and abilities to live out their working lives. It's a career. The one thing they really don't want is someone rocking the boat.

A prophet's job is to rock the boat. Having a direct line to the god, bypassing the entire church hierarchy - is unlikely to go down well with people who have made a career out of committing themselves to that hierarchy.

[ti'esar]

And in fact, while I don't know how much it'll be played up, you can actually see a bit of that in the current comic right now with Veldrina's complaints about "those stuffy hierarchical frumps".

[Keltest]

If a "favoured soul" is meant to be analogous to a "prophet", then it does seem more like an NPC class, because a prophet has no real agenda of their own - their role is as a mouthpiece for their god, which would be kinda dull to roleplay in most circumstances.

It also seems likely that clerics and favoured souls - wouldn't get along, to say the least.

A cleric lives in a dangerous world, works hard and studies hard, learns to fit in and politick their way up the hierarchy until they find a nice cosy spot that suits their temperament and abilities to live out their working lives. It's a career. The one thing they really don't want is someone rocking the boat.

A prophet's job is to rock the boat. Having a direct line to the god, bypassing the entire church hierarchy - is unlikely to go down well with people who have made a career out of committing themselves to that hierarchy.

Cadderly Bonaduce in the Cleric Quintet is, for all intents and purposes, a favored soul. The class may not have existed then, but as a concept he is surprisingly spot on. And yes, he does seriously irk the church hierarchy. He is also, however, the main character of the series and largely is the driving force behind his own quests once he gets his powers, so I disagree with the idea that Favored Souls cannot be protagonists or PCs.

[SavageWombat]

So why are we thinking about making a scroll again?

Maybe because the thread was originally about Veldrina, who could read a 7th level cleric spell scroll just fine? I don't even know why people kept bringing Haley into it.

[Keltest]

Maybe because the thread was originally about Veldrina, who could read a 7th level cleric spell scroll just fine? I don't even know why people kept bringing Haley into it.

Because until like a page ago, Haley was the only one of them who could use such a scroll with any chance of success. As was mentioned, now that they've met Veldrina, they also know where a group of clerics are who would be able to cast the spell, and the travel time is shorter than the time it takes to scribe the scroll. Perhaps if Roy had thought about it way back when they had just left the western continent, but Haley apparently didn't have any ranks in UMD then, and they only had the resources for the one scroll anyway.

[137beth]

If a "favoured soul" is meant to be analogous to a "prophet", then it does seem more like an NPC class, because a prophet has no real agenda of their own - their role is as a mouthpiece for their god, which would be kinda dull to roleplay in most circumstances.

It also seems likely that clerics and favoured souls - wouldn't get along, to say the least.

A cleric lives in a dangerous world, works hard and studies hard, learns to fit in and politick their way up the hierarchy until they find a nice cosy spot that suits their temperament and abilities to live out their working lives. It's a career. The one thing they really don't want is someone rocking the boat.

A prophet's job is to rock the boat. Having a direct line to the god, bypassing the entire church hierarchy - is unlikely to go down well with people who have made a career out of committing themselves to that hierarchy.

In the D&D book it is from (well, books, since it appeared in the Miniatures Handbook but was reprinted in Complete Divine, unless I got my chronology mixed up and CD came before MH), it is presented as a PC class. However it is suggested that favored souls often don't get along with clerics very well.

[BannedInSchool]

However it is suggested that favored souls often don't get along with clerics very well.
Well obviously if they're not praying for their spells and it's just some natural ability they're just faking the divine connection. Fakers. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Well obviously if they're not praying for their spells and it's just some natural ability they're just faking the divine connection. Fakers. :smalltongue:

clearly theyre sorcerers.

[littlebum2002]

If a "favoured soul" is meant to be analogous to a "prophet", then it does seem more like an NPC class, because a prophet has no real agenda of their own - their role is as a mouthpiece for their god, which would be kinda dull to roleplay in most circumstances.

If you roleplay a Favored Soul, you also get to roleplay whatever the god is saying to you. It's not like the DM is going to be your god and just tell you what to do.

[Doug Lampert]

Maybe because the thread was originally about Veldrina, who could read a 7th level cleric spell scroll just fine? I don't even know why people kept bringing Haley into it.Because until like a page ago, Haley was the only one of them who could use such a scroll with any chance of success. As was mentioned, now that they've met Veldrina, they also know where a group of clerics are who would be able to cast the spell, and the travel time is shorter than the time it takes to scribe the scroll. Perhaps if Roy had thought about it way back when they had just left the western continent, but Haley apparently didn't have any ranks in UMD then, and they only had the resources for the one scroll anyway.

Yeah, meeting Veldrina makes "scribe a scroll" a barely plausible idea, and also makes it clear that "find a cleric" will take less than a third the time and resources and as a practical matter the only required action is to go where Roy has already said they are going to go and doing what Roy has already committed them to do.

Veldrina's presence makes the scroll plan take ONLY 3x as much time as "find a cleric", infinitely less convenient than "find a cleric" (since they're going to a cleric anyway) and noticeably more expensive than "find a cleric" (scroll components rather than paying for a spell cast).

Except that Veldrina CAN'T USE this hypothetical scroll, because if everything goes as planned she WILL NOT BE WITH THEM in three days!

So why is anyone discussing scrolls again?

[Psyren]

If a "favoured soul" is meant to be analogous to a "prophet", then it does seem more like an NPC class, because a prophet has no real agenda of their own - their role is as a mouthpiece for their god, which would be kinda dull to roleplay in most circumstances.

On the contrary, being the prophet can be great fun to roleplay. Just because you have a direct line to the deity - or to be much more accurate, they have a direct line to you - doesn't mean you can fully understand what they're trying to get you to do (or not do), or that their request/expectation is entirely reasonable for a mortal to accomplish, or that even if the goal is attainable, they won't have you go about it in an extremely trying/roundabout way for cosmic reasons you can't fathom. Prophecy is a funny thing, in that getting a vision of what is to come and interpreting it accurately are often very different from one another, and even getting the message clearly may not help you or your party pull it off.

On top of that, there are the tensions such an arrangement can cause for the mortal herself. A god's favor is not always a desirable thing - Indeed, those mortals who go unnoticed often lead much happier lives on the whole, and unlike a cleric, favored souls generally don't seek out their calling and have no say in how others will react to them being chosen in this way. Enemies of the faith, and even opposition within the deity's own church, are common outcomes to "jumping the line" like this.

The PF Oracle faces similar issues, albeit with a much more mechanical drawback in the form of their curse.

[littlebum2002]

Yeah, meeting Veldrina makes "scribe a scroll" a barely plausible idea, and also makes it clear that "find a cleric" will take less than a third the time and resources and as a practical matter the only required action is to go where Roy has already said they are going to go and doing what Roy has already committed them to do.

Veldrina's presence makes the scroll plan take ONLY 3x as much time as "find a cleric", infinitely less convenient than "find a cleric" (since they're going to a cleric anyway) and noticeably more expensive than "find a cleric" (scroll components rather than paying for a spell cast).

Except that Veldrina CAN'T USE this hypothetical scroll, because if everything goes as planned she WILL NOT BE WITH THEM in three days!

So why is anyone discussing scrolls again?

They had plenty of time and money on the ship to scribe a scroll just in case something like this happened. It's too late not, but if they would have planned ahead they could have a new cleric by now. (Or, more accurately, there would be a room full of dead people by now)

[Porthos]

They had plenty of time and money on the ship to scribe a scroll just in case something like this happened. It's too late not, but if they would have planned ahead they could have a new cleric by now. (Or, more accurately, there would be a room full of dead people by now)

I don't think it's much of a coincidence that HPoH came up with the whole "resurrect me for the good of the party" idea when they were in town and being a couple of days away from his current goal and not while they were twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do on the Mechane.

[littlebum2002]

I don't think it's much of a coincidence that HPoH came up with the whole "resurrect me for the good of the party" idea when they were in town and being a couple of days away from his current goal and not while they were twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do on the Mechane.

I wonder why Roy didn't think of it. Maybe he did, but didn't mention it because he thought it would seem rude? Pulse-ist perhaps? Undeadaphobic?

[dancrilis]

I wonder why Roy didn't think of it. Maybe he did, but didn't mention it because he thought it would seem rude? Pulse-ist perhaps? Undeadaphobic?

It is worth noting that Durkon is honest about being Evil (assuming he is Evil that is, but I think we can call that a high probability scenario), Roy was surprised that he wanted to be brought back to life at all (frankly Durkon can likely get out of being brought back by saying - I'm na sure, I need ta think aboot tis.
Or to put it another way the inverse of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html).

Also Durkon was busy researching on the trip so he didn't have time to be creating scrolls (frankly Vaarsuvius was busy identifying items also).
So options:
1. Spend time on tasks that assist with the next gate - with the understanding that they are not stopping until they get there.
2. Do something else - that only assists at the next gate if the immediate plan fails and of a number of fairly specific things happen (meeting a spontaneous divine caster, of the relevant level and who is willing to assist them).

[Porthos]

I wonder why Roy didn't think of it. Maybe he did, but didn't mention it because he thought it would seem rude? Pulse-ist perhaps? Undeadaphobic?

He probably just wasn't thinking with portals scrolls. He had already said that he wouldn't even consider staking Durkon until there was a means of Resurrecting him in front of him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0939.html). And that's when the idea of Durkon being a vampire was still new and he hadn't had a chance to get used to it. Or more used to it at any rate.

[Doug Lampert]

They had plenty of time and money on the ship to scribe a scroll just in case something like this happened. It's too late not, but if they would have planned ahead they could have a new cleric by now. (Or, more accurately, there would be a room full of dead people by now)

They could have made one scroll on the ship, assuming they had the other components (you need 1137,5 GP of "stuff" other than the diamonds), and then if they found a cleric able to use the scroll then that same cleric could also cast the spell. Cheaper than the scroll, and not costing V any XP.

So why would they have been thinking about scrolls again? Just in case the NEXT high level divine caster they met was also the VERY FIRST favored soul they met?

Seriously?

This is what we're down to, "Maybe in the next town we stop at EVERY high level cleric will have left town, but by pure coincidence there will be a member of this obscure and never before seen in the strip class of adequate level to use the scroll but unable to cast the spell and just passing through on a secret mission and she can use the scroll!"

That's your reason they should have made a scroll? Because there are stunningly few other scenarios where the scroll would be all that useful.

Edits below:

You forgot (or didn't mention) that Roy and the team wasn't actually planning to stop at a town at all - rendering even the above 'plan' invalid.
I forgot that one.

But: In the unlikely event that Roy HAD decided that this whole scenario would happen, imagine the conversation:

Roy: Guys! I've got a great idea, Durkon and V cooperate to make a scroll of resurrection, and then when we meet a high level divine caster with resurrection on her list she can use the scroll.

V: This is illogical Sir Greenhilt, if we meet such a caster, then the caster can simply prepare and cast resurrection.

Roy: Not if it's a favored soul! I'm pretty sure we're using either the miniatures handbook or complete divine!

V: Sir Geenhilt, what are the chances that we'll meet a friendly high level favored soul who doesn't know resurrection but does have the level to cast it prior to our next meeting with a friendly high level cleric or some other character with the ability to actually cast the spell?

Roy: But the universe runs on dramatic tropes! We'll meet such a character if it makes for a better story!

Elan: But Roy, between the level and the not knowing the spell there's probably only like one of those in the world at most. So why would we meet her if a cleric could do just as well? The only reason the story would introduce such a character is precisely because she can't cast resurrection. Which means that making a scroll guarantees that we won't meet her now, or that if we do we'll discover that the scroll's been stolen or something.

[dancrilis]

This is what we're down to, "Maybe in the next town we stop at EVERY high level cleric will have left town, but by pure coincidence there will be a member of this obscure and never before seen in the strip class of adequate level to use the scroll but unable to cast the spell and just passing through on a secret mission and she can use the scroll!"


You forgot (or didn't mention) that Roy and the team wasn't actually planning to stop at a town at all - rendering even the above 'plan' invalid.

[Hopeless]

I follow OotS with a very basic understanding of D&D and no real need to get in depth, so when a new character class, a "favored soul" appears I tried to just get an overview, and how it's different from a Cleric. All I find online are either graphs and tables or arguments that imply the reader already has a much greater understanding. Could someone explain the class in basic terms and how it is better and worse than a Cleric?

Before I read the rest of this thread I thought I'd post my initial answer to this question.

A Favoured Soul is to Cleric's is what Sorceror's are to Wizards.

This is putting it lightly, imagine a new class is developed for 3.0 but rather than making it clearly a new class separate with an explanation for its link to both Wizards and Cleric's they instead stripped it of the ability to cast either arcane or divine spells, dropped the hit dice even though unlike Wizards it really shouldn't be a d4 and effectively nerf it when they proceeded to 3.5.

Sorry that's the Sorceror the Favoured Soul is basically the reverse of what they did to Sorceror's gave it bonus Feats even though the Cleric has none of the sort (Wizards do) to me it shouldn't exist and the reason I'm posting this is to get that off my chest so I can read this thread without letting all my disgust for what is the most ridiculous class I've ever read about at least the Mystic Theurge is a prestige class and less I say about Warlocks the better (although 4e did make a notable effort to improve that class).

Now I'll read the thread, apologies but I loathe this class!

Edit: Read the thread, pretty much what I remembered, never even considered Cadderly as a Favoured Soul!

So since they're discussing scrolls would a high enough level Druid be able to reincarnate Durkon so V can polymorph him back into a Dwarf?

Not really knowledgeable about vampires being returned to life mind you but I do hope this doesn't mean Veldrina will end up killed by Durkon which is not something I'd have said in regards to a member of this class!

[Seward]

Wow. Ok...don't play a Favored Soul if you don't like them.

I played one, and one of the best parts about them is that the relationship to the god can be anything you want it to be. I chose "adversarial".

My guy just wanted to be an herbalist/healer, but an ancestor won a bet with Procan (a chaotic sea/storm god along the lines of Neptune) and now this "gift" is in the family. One day (after his uncle came to the usual end of those "favored" by Procan) he woke up knowing how to use armor, shield and trident, with inexplicable urges to cast destructive spells etc.

His spell list was a negotiation between himself and his god, with one destructive spell per healing-type spell, feats were similar.

In the end, he got a Phylactery of Faithfulness (a device that tells you when you're doing things your god won't like). He spent an adventure doing the opposite of whatever the Phylactery indicated he should be doing, while sucking up to Pelor (a god of sun and healing whose priesthood owed him several significant favors from adventures past) with the goal of having his own deity renounce him, so that he could shift over to one better suited.

It isn't clear what will happen when he dies though. Procan might have only renounced Mugwort, not the entire clan. The fact that the character was a gnome, and Procan was a human god only added to the fun.

[littlebum2002]

if they found a cleric able to use the scroll then that same cleric could also cast the spell. Cheaper than the scroll, and not costing V any XP.

This is a weird argument to make, considering that the person who proves you wrong is literally the main character in the current strip. Not a strip from 3 years ago, mind you, but the one that is up there right now shows someone who can use the scroll but not cast the spell. And a Favored Soul isn't the only example, they also could have met someone with a maxxed UMD score. (I mean, they're going to a Gnome city. Of course there wont' be any Artificers there. :smallconfused:

The question wouldn't be "Why make a scroll?", it would be "Why NOT make a scroll?". They need all the help they can get, and according to their logic having a healer is the best chance against Xkyon, so you're telling me the 11k GP is more valuable than the off chance they might meet the one person who'l help them save the world?

If I'm about to die, and someone told me "the only chance you'll live is if you win the lottery", I'm not going to think "Well, that's stupid, I'm not wasting my money on a lottery ticket when they have such small chances of winning", would I? Of course not, I'd put all my resources into buying tickets and hoping I win.


You forgot (or didn't mention) that Roy and the team wasn't actually planning to stop at a town at all - rendering even the above 'plan' invalid.

That's true (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html). It's weird that Bandana didn't tell them that they had to make a pit stop until they were only 12 hours away.



Before I read the rest of this thread I thought I'd post my initial answer to this question.

A Favoured Soul is to Cleric's is what Sorceror's are to Wizards.

This is putting it lightly, imagine a new class is developed for 3.0 but rather than making it clearly a new class separate with an explanation for its link to both Wizards and Cleric's they instead stripped it of the ability to cast either arcane or divine spells, dropped the hit dice even though unlike Wizards it really shouldn't be a d4 and effectively nerf it when they proceeded to 3.5.

Sorry that's the Sorceror the Favoured Soul is basically the reverse of what they did to Sorceror's gave it bonus Feats even though the Cleric has none of the sort (Wizards do) to me it shouldn't exist and the reason I'm posting this is to get that off my chest so I can read this thread without letting all my disgust for what is the most ridiculous class I've ever read about ...

I can totally understand why people don't like Favored Souls and Sorcerors, but for someone like me that LOVES playing D&D but doesn't have the game experience needed to be able to prepare a "good" set of spells every day, they're the only kind of magic users I can play effectively. I pick spells I know will probably come in handy in the future, then I always have them. No daily planning required. Whenever I play a prepared magic caster, I end up like Durkon, never having the right spell for the job.

[Kantaki]

That's true (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html). It's weird that Bandana didn't tell them that they had to make a pit stop until they were only 12 hours away.

I think she didn't tell them because the stop wasn't intended to last this long. Bandana most likely calculated only a hour or so to refill the Mechanes fuel tanks not a full day for repairs.

[Doug Lampert]

This is a weird argument to make, considering that the person who proves you wrong is literally the main character in the current strip. Not a strip from 3 years ago, mind you, but the one that is up there right now shows someone who can use the scroll but not cast the spell. And a Favored Soul isn't the only example, they also could have met someone with a maxxed UMD score. (I mean, they're going to a Gnome city. Of course there wont' be any Artificers there. :smallconfused:

The question wouldn't be "Why make a scroll?", it would be "Why NOT make a scroll?". They need all the help they can get, and according to their logic having a healer is the best chance against Xkyon, so you're telling me the 11k GP is more valuable than the off chance they might meet the one person who'l help them save the world?

If I'm about to die, and someone told me "the only chance you'll live is if you win the lottery", I'm not going to think "Well, that's stupid, I'm not wasting my money on a lottery ticket when they have such small chances of winning", would I? Of course not, I'd put all my resources into buying tickets and hoping I win.But that's not your only chance. That's a freak occurrence substantially less likely than a hospital saving your life, but you're CLAIMING that the thing to do is ignore the hospital and head for the 7-11 to buy a lottery ticket, because there is SOME highly contrived scenario where the ticket could conceivably be no better than the hospital, but at least it costs more!

Because if you're appealing to the current situation, I hate to tell you this, but the same character you're saying could use the scroll also urgently needs a lift to the hospital. That won't bring Durkon back either, but that's because of story logic, and the same story logic would tell us even more strongly that the scroll was doomed.

Seriously, if they had the components for over a thousand GP worth of scrolls and are working on non-story logic, then another control weather, or an invisibility, or a silence or a set of half a dozen utility spells were all far more likely to be useful and are easier to make. Because it takes a highly contrived situation introducing new elements for a scroll of resurrection to be of any use at all.

And if worrying about story logic (which makes sense since they live in a world where such highly contrived situations occur only for story reasons), then guess what, the reason to contrive a character who can use the scroll but not cast the spell is because you need the character, and the story DOES NOT call for the spell cast yet.

Summary: Without story logic there was no reason to assume the scroll would be useful, and with story logic it's even less likely that the scroll will be useful.

[Jasdoif]

They had plenty of time and money on the ship to scribe a scroll just in case something like this happened.Hm. I do wonder what scroll Vaarsuvius was already scribing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0950.html).

[littlebum2002]

But that's not your only chance. That's a freak occurrence substantially less likely than a hospital saving your life, but you're CLAIMING that the thing to do is ignore the hospital and head for the 7-11 to buy a lottery ticket, because there is SOME highly contrived scenario where the ticket could conceivably be no better than the hospital, but at least it costs more!

Because if you're appealing to the current situation, I hate to tell you this, but the same character you're saying could use the scroll also urgently needs a lift to the hospital. That won't bring Durkon back either, but that's because of story logic, and the same story logic would tell us even more strongly that the scroll was doomed.

Seriously, if they had the components for over a thousand GP worth of scrolls and are working on non-story logic, then another control weather, or an invisibility, or a silence or a set of half a dozen utility spells were all far more likely to be useful and are easier to make. Because it takes a highly contrived situation introducing new elements for a scroll of resurrection to be of any use at all.

And if worrying about story logic (which makes sense since they live in a world where such highly contrived situations occur only for story reasons), then guess what, the reason to contrive a character who can use the scroll but not cast the spell is because you need the character, and the story DOES NOT call for the spell cast yet.

Summary: Without story logic there was no reason to assume the scroll would be useful, and with story logic it's even less likely that the scroll will be useful.

Yeah, It's a one in a million chance to find an artificer in a Gnome town

:sigh:

[grandpheonix]

I follow OotS with a very basic understanding of D&D and no real need to get in depth, so when a new character class, a "favored soul" appears I tried to just get an overview, and how it's different from a Cleric. All I find online are either graphs and tables or arguments that imply the reader already has a much greater understanding. Could someone explain the class in basic terms and how it is better and worse than a Cleric?



Basically a sorcerer that pulls from the Cleric spell list, and doesnt rely on a Deity. They get wings at 17, and even saves across the board. Alot of fun to play, and pretty cool if your DM will allow you to have claws and such if your Deity is a dragon, like Bahamut or Tiamut.

[Seward]

Basically a sorcerer that pulls from the Cleric spell list

If you don't know why spont casting is awesome, you aren't going to get the appeal of a Favored Soul.

Briefly, if your encounters are reactive (stuff happens in the middle of the day you didn't know about in the morning) or you get a string of encounters where similar spells are useful (say, you're doing the three 1st edition Giant modules) the spont caster gets to use the best spell he knows over and over.

In those situations the prep caster likely has one better spell, one spell about as good and then they're moving on to spells not as good. They're also more subject to "slot lock" where all the spells they have left after a few encounters are not useful unless the next encounter is significantly different. If you're fighting incorporeals all day, the Sorcerer can just do magic missile (and metamagic more powerful versions in higher slots) and the evil favored soul who normally channels negative energy can spam their one cure spell over and over.

Metamagic is also much, much better once you have some higher level spell slots. A wizard only gets metamagic on any spell he preps with it, a sorc gets all of his metamagic on any spell he's got that'll fit in a slot. Both benefit from metamagic rods, to expand what can be done with fixed wizard slots and feats.

In situations where you're the aggressor, a commando-raid type thing (which granted, is a lot of D&D the way many campaigns work, and is the basis of "scry and die" an approach V did the worst way possible (didn't sleep and retune before facing the big X)) the prep caster has a serious advantage, able to tune everything to the 5 minutes he expects to fight that way.

Frankly, my spont casters become a lot more like "batman" than most wizards/clerics I've played with after mid levels, simply because they always have whatever they have (so a spell like shatter with several uses will be available when the less likely uses come up), and sometimes you can do amazing things with 4-5 castings of one spell that are impossible with any "prepped" spell barring a night's sleep before the problem. Like moving a whole infantry company across a swamp with tenser's disks at level 7, using Disintegrate repeatedly to burn a tunnel from top-down into a nasty close-quarters tunnel ambush, adding phantom steeds mid-day for new NPC's we picked up during the adventure, etc.

When I play a cleric or wizard I often take feats to expand what they can do spontaneously, to get some of that effect, and I also leave a few slots open to add flexibility during the day with only a 15 minute downtime, rather than 8 hours. Both types of casters use wands/scrolls, but for different reasons (wiz/cleric for unusual but suddenly vital spells on demand or to expand the ability to spam something repeatedly, sorc/fav soul mainly to expand spell selection)

Mechanically the Favored Soul has some issues - it uses wisdom for spell DC's so favored souls make excellent support casters, but for offensive magic they tend to have to sacrifice something like durability to do well. This is compensated for with a good reflex save, a better weapon proficiency + weapon focus/spec if your deity has a decent weapon, and some celestial-like stuff you get as you level up (energy resistance, eventually wings, kind of similar to Sorcerer bloodlines in Pathfinder). Sometimes that flavor works well (my Procan guy was sonic resistant at L5 with a plan for lightning resistant at 10, which switched to fire resistant when he shifted to Pelor). Sometimes it's kind of useless and you wish you could pick something else for the flavor feats. (thus PRC's, or the Pathfinder Oracle, which really does the whole thing better)

[b_jonas]

Can we get back to the original question of Favored souls? There's been like four threads already discussing how to resurrect Durkon.

My question is, is the Oracle of the Sunken Valley a favored soul? He claims in #556 that he's not a cleric, but often confused with one, and that “the Dargon Queen has blessed me with visions of the future without requiring me to earn a bunch of cleric classes first”. To me, this sounds similar to some of the descriptions of Favored Souls you gave.

Mind you, you could just as well say that Elan could be a favored soul because [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0557.html]he has a special connection to Banjo and is favored by him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html), but that's not too convincing.

If the Oracle is a favored soul, is it possible that he'll be there on the Godsmoot on the tip of the Pinnacle Mountains as well?

[Bulldog Psion]

Here's a more terse, perhaps easier-to-understand explanation:

Wizards learn spells through study, and can cast a very diverse range of spells of many different kinds. They can cast a limited number, though -- so they're a Swiss Army knife of spells, but they can't cast them all in the same day. Their spellcasting ability is based on "Intelligence," which measures how well they are able to learn spells.

Sorcerers have the inborn ability to cast spells. They don't need to be smart to do it -- it's part of them. They can cast many more spells per day than a wizard can, but they only know a few different types of spells. It's just that they can cast those few over and over again, whereas wizards usually can't. Sorcerers' spellcasting ability is based on "Charisma,' which is a measure of strength of personality.

A cleric is similar to a wizard, though using a different spell list (wizards have no healing spells, for example). They have a diverse range of spells they have to pray for. Their spellcasting ability is based on "Wisdom," which indicates how wise they are, as you might expect. :smallwink:

Favored souls are the religious equivalent of sorcerers. They are given the inborn talent to cast spells by their divinity, and don't need to be smart, wise, or whatever in order to cast them. Like sorcerers, they have a very limited number of spells known, but they can cast those few many times per day, more than a cleric. Their spellcasting ability is based on "Charisma," which as noted above is force of personality.

Hope that helps! :smallsmile:

Edit:

Even more concise:

Wizards & Clerics: have a big toolbox they can use only a few times per day.

Sorcerors & Favored Souls: have a small toolbox they can use many times per day.

(A wizard or cleric, say, knows 50 different spells but can only use 20 per day. A sorcerer or favored soul knows 20 different spells but can use them 50 times per day. That is a weird exaggeration, but it illustrates the principle behind the classes even though the exact numbers given are not in the rules, and just pulled off the top of my head for illustrative purposes only.)

[grandpheonix]

Can we get back to the original question of Favored souls? There's been like four threads already discussing how to resurrect Durkon.

My question is, is the Oracle of the Sunken Valley a favored soul? He claims in #556 that he's not a cleric, but often confused with one, and that “the Dargon Queen has blessed me with visions of the future without requiring me to earn a bunch of cleric classes first”. To me, this sounds similar to some of the descriptions of Favored Souls you gave.

Mind you, you could just as well say that Elan could be a favored soul because [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0557.html]he has a special connection to Banjo and is favored by him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html), but that's not too convincing.

If the Oracle is a favored soul, is it possible that he'll be there on the Godsmoot on the tip of the Pinnacle Mountains as well?

No access to cleric spell list.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

[littlebum2002]

No access to cleric spell list.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

Nowhere in that comic does he say he doesn't have access to the Cleric spell list.

[Gray Mage]

Can we get back to the original question of Favored souls? There's been like four threads already discussing how to resurrect Durkon.

My question is, is the Oracle of the Sunken Valley a favored soul? He claims in #556 that he's not a cleric, but often confused with one, and that “the Dargon Queen has blessed me with visions of the future without requiring me to earn a bunch of cleric classes first”. To me, this sounds similar to some of the descriptions of Favored Souls you gave.

Mind you, you could just as well say that Elan could be a favored soul because [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0557.html]he has a special connection to Banjo and is favored by him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html), but that's not too convincing.

If the Oracle is a favored soul, is it possible that he'll be there on the Godsmoot on the tip of the Pinnacle Mountains as well?

No, he's an Expert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html).

[Psyren]

No, he's an Expert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html).

He has an Expert level, but that may not be his only class. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html) he says: "I'm what you would call 'naturally gifted.' The Dragon Queen has blessed me with visions of the future without requiring me to earn a bunch of cleric class levels first. It's sort of like getting an honorary PhD." (Thought this could also refer to a template or custom feat of some kind.)

About all we can say for sure is that he's not a Cleric, because he said so, and that he has at least one Expert level, because he said that too. Beyond that, he's a mystery.

[b_jonas]

No access to cleric spell list.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

I think he just can't turn undead, and can't cast Dismissal because he doesn't have the full cleric spell list. That'd be consistent with being a favored soul, not a cleric.

(Mind you, if he can see in the future so successfully that he always has the right magic item, he could take Cleric levels, because he'd always know what spells to prepare in advance. But he's successful enough his way, so I guess it's up to him. And perhaps the Dragon Queen has willed that he shall remain a seer, and he'd strip him of his abilities if he became a cleric.)


No, he's an Expert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html).

Oh, Expert as in the NPC class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/expert.htm)? Good catch. I'm not too familiar with DnD to have noticed that. I assumed he was referring to the skill level called "expert" in some proficiency skill, whether weapon or non-weapon, which he'd regain when he got an experience level again. Thank you for pointing that out, that's good to know (even if he can be multiclassed).

[factotum]

He has an Expert level, but that may not be his only class.

What are the rules for which class loses a level when a multi-classed character dies and is rezzed? Would they allow him to be a Favoured Soul/Expert? (Genuinely don't know, am asking from ignorance).

[Keltest]

What are the rules for which class loses a level when a multi-classed character dies and is rezzed? Would they allow him to be a Favoured Soul/Expert? (Genuinely don't know, am asking from ignorance).

I don't believe there is a hard and fast rule for that. As a DM, I would make you lose the most recent level you obtained, whatever class it was in, but you couldn't be drained below level 1 in a class unless you had no other levels.

[Seward]

I had a personal experience like that in 3.0.

L1 cleric/L7ish wizard, died. GM let me choose to lose the cleric level based on events (we had a post-death roleplay session about that. Bottom line he needed the Wiz7 level more than the Cleric1 level to accomplish the party goals, which also aligned with the deity's goals.

In Living Greyhawk organized play, where the rules are a bit stricter because you're playing with a different group each session, last level gained is always the level lost. Not a problem in Pathfinder, raise dead doesn't cost levels, it just inflicts permanent negative levels (so a real raise takes both a raise and a couple of restorations, bringing the cost up a little bit)