PDA

View Full Version : Building an unarmed Swordsage.



Deel
2007-04-21, 11:38 PM
Using the adaption variant from the book to give monk unarmed damage progression.

I got most of the manuevers I want down, but feats always give me trouble especially for a character so reliant on it's class abilities. So far I picked up Adaptive Style and Shadow Blade, the obvious ones, and am considering Two-Weapon Fighting, but passed that, I am lost. I'm mostly going for an offensive type of over-the-top kung-fu character with a little magic-ness from manuevers, and throwing people, because throwing people is cool.

Any suggestions?

Kel_Arath
2007-04-21, 11:40 PM
flying kick, dodge, combat expertise/power attack are never bad, weapon focus.

Deel
2007-04-21, 11:48 PM
I get free weapon focus from class ability, so no need for that. Power Attack with medium BAB erks me to no end, and no two-handed weapons. Combat Expertise could work though, I could pick up improved trip too for boosting my throwing.

Edit: Also, is it an error or does Swordsage just not have spot? I see listen, move silently, and hide, it just seems weird to leave out spot, especially for a tactical martial adept.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-21, 11:53 PM
Shadow Blade for high Dex is a must. Weapon Finesse is a "duh", although because of absolutely terrible design you can't get it until level 2 or 3. Two-Weapon Fighting is quite nice here, since you're getting bonus damage to each attack, but you need to realize that it's fairly anti-synergistic with using lots of standard-action Strikes. If you want to do that, then focusing on TWF is a waste.

If you focus on Dex+TWF, you can be very solid, do significant damage, and so on, but your maneuver choice is a lot more restricted. You have to stay in a Shadow Hand stance for Shadow Blade (which means you can't use some of the fairly nice non-SH stances), you have to focus on Boosts and Counters because strikes won't let you TWF (with a couple of notable exceptions, such as Tiger Claw's Pouncing Charge).

Here's an example of a solid unarmed TWFer (I prefer two daggers, actually, but it does work with unarmed strikes).

1: (Human) Swordsage 1- Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade, Discipline Focus(Shadow Hand) for WF: unarmed.
2: Psychic Warrior 1 - Weapon Finesse
3: Psychic Warrior 2 - Psionic Meditation, Two-Weapon Fighting
4: Swordsage 2 - here's where you get WIS to AC.
5: Swordsage 3
6: Swordsage 4 - Extra Readied Maneuver. Take Insightful Strike(Tiger Claw) from Swordsage, since most of the Strikes you'll be using will be Tiger Claw.

(Edit: Psychic Warrior is in there for a few reasons. One, it lets you get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat and at level 2 instead of 3--playing a dexer before you get Finesse sucks. Two, having any PP means you get Psionic Focus... which you can expend to "take 15" on Concentration checks. Like the one Diamond Mind maneuvers have you make. Taking 15 on a saving throw is nice; taking Psionic Meditation, lets you regain focus as a move action, i.e. after a standard-action strike.
Also, you net a couple of powers and 4 or 5 power points (WIS synergy, there). I'd say pick up Force Screen to boost your AC and then the other one based on what else you want to boost. Conceal Thoughts is useful for a character who's cross-classed Bluff, say, while Chameleon is good for a sneak, Vigor is good for anyone, Skate is good for mobility, and so on.
Oh, yeah--PW also gives you that light armor proficiency you lost back.)

Take Improved TWF at 9th and the Gloom Razor tactical feat at 12th, unless you take the Warblade multiclass route.


Take Bloodclaw Master 1 and 2 for negating TWF penalties and full-STR-to-offhand-damage. You should take them so BCM gives you a useful maneuver (i.e. Pouncing Charge).

Alternatively, take a couple of Warblade levels instead of BCM. Take Iron Heart maneuvers, and then take Iron Heart Aura so you can take Stormguard Warrior as a tactical feat--its Combat Rhythm ability, for example, offers potentially enormous damage boosts for TWFers.

Your boosts should be things useful with TWF. For example, Burning Blade is great, since it adds damage to every hit. Dancing Mongoose adds one attack with each hand (if you're TWFing unarmed strikes, this won't work--you need two different weapons two get the two attacks), which is good with Pouncing Charge, since you'll get the +WIS to damage from Insightful Strike(Tiger Claw) on those extra attacks, too.

Ryuuk
2007-04-21, 11:57 PM
Improved Initiative never hurt. Assuming you're Dex based and with Quick to Act, you should be going first on most encounters. Encounter starts, you move in and throw the closest enemy over to the more dedicated melee damage dealer.

Extra Readied Maneuver is also pretty useful for a sword sage, since you're gonna have plenty of options.

Will you be planing on using Sudden Leap? It's a great way to increase you're mobility and get a few more full attacks or full round. Make sure to either pair it off with Leaping Dragon Stance or Leap to the Heavens (PHBII) feat.

Two Fighting might work with a Swordsage, assuming you use the Burning/Scorching/Infernal Blade line of boosts. If you already passed it up then there's no need.

Desert Wind Dodge is also nice. +1 AC and +1 Fire Damage by moving 10 ft and it counts as Dodge for prerequisites.

Superior Unarmed Strike could also be useful, assuming you're considered a monk for the whole "+4 to monk level" clause.

Deel
2007-04-22, 12:41 AM
I am going pure swordsage here for simplicity sake and dual boost being not bad, plus, it just fits my character better(that, and I am making this for a campaign where the DM was nice enough to give us all wishes, for anything not overpowering, I wished for a restat from monk to this, because monk cannot pull off kung-fu over-the-topism at all, and the DM let me.) Please do not fire your lazers at me for this non-optimal choice, all the ToB classes are good all the way anyway. Might take some bloodclaw master at some point though.

Other than that, yeah, going with the TWF thing.

So far, this is my lineup to our starting level:

1 - Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting(Flaw Bonus), Adaptive Style(Flaw Bonus), Shadow Blade(Human Bonus)
2 -
3 - Weapon Finesse(unarmed strike)
4 -
5 -
6 - Improved Natural Attack(unarmed strike)

I need to see about ruling Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat for unarmed swordsage, with the monk thing is makes sense. INA because with multiple hits, those extra dice can actually make a difference.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-22, 12:47 AM
I'd skip INA. You have other things to take, like Extra Readied Maneuver, Martial Study (for useful maneuvers you don't have access to--for example, a 3000-gp Crown of the White Raven can get you Battle Leader's Charge, and you can then use that maneuver when taking Martial Study and snag the almighty White Raven Tactics with Martial Study. You can then take the crown off, since WRT will fulfill its own prerequisites. If that's too cheesy, take BL's C with Martial Study and use the crown to get WRT), and the like.

You should be getting IUS for free--it's part of the "monk unarmed progression" the swordsage adaptation gets.

Make sure to ask the party caster for Mage Armor, OR wear MW studded leather or a mithral chain shirt--you may not be proficient with light armor anymore, but you still get WIS to AC in it, and there is no penalty for wearing armor you're not proficient with it if it has no Armor Check Penalty (since the normal penalty is the ACP applied to attack rolls). You don't have to go totally unarmored, you aren't the Monk class.

Deel
2007-04-22, 01:09 AM
Yeah, I might go for an extra readied manuever. I'll definitely grab a mithril chainshirt, cant beat the 4 AC for 1100 with no penalty. Especially since we have no dedicated arcane caster, just a duskblade.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-22, 01:12 AM
No dedicated... arcane caster... *twitch*. :P

(Have you looked at the other suggested adaptation of the Swordsage, the magical one?)

Deel
2007-04-22, 01:19 AM
Yeah, we have quite the weird, non-traditional group. Our basic strategy is "pound things into the ground things before they do the same to us."

I might've gone for the whole magic thing before, but we're already in, it wouldn't make sense for my character to spout magical abilities. I'm just happy he was gratious enough to let me get out of being a monk. I might roll up a caster if I die sometime, though I hope not to, there's always the chance.

Jack Mann
2007-04-22, 01:20 AM
Actually, you need to go a bit roundabout to get battle leader's charge and white raven tactics. Battle leader's charge has a prerequisite of one martial maneuver, same as white raven tactics.

Use the crown to learn, say, douse the flames. Use that as a prerequisite for martial study (white raven tactics). Then reset the crown for battle leader's charge, since you know have a white raven maneuver in white raven tactics.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-22, 03:59 AM
No dedicated... arcane caster... *twitch*. :P

As someone who never plays with a cleric and has never seen a non-bard arcane spellcaster above level 3 I have trouble seeing the necesity of magic. Being a level 1 wizard is just too boring for most of the people in my group and nobody wants to play a cleric.

I'd take combat expertise and improved trip and grapple but with maneuvers those aren't so necesary..

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-22, 04:07 AM
Here are the things you pretty much can't do without a real arcanist:

-Teleport. This is a huge deal. This alone warrants an arcane caster, and the difference between a party which can teleport and one that can't is enormous.
-Sleep in nearly-complete safety.
-Debuff enemies, lowering the damage the party takes drastically.
-Cast effects like Invisibility en masse.
-Scry and perform other useful divinations.
-Reshape the environment.
-Send messages over long distances.
-Fly, until you buy very expensive items later.
-Deal with magic you encounter (dispelling and so on).

Buffing and battlefield control are also gone.
A bard can do a couple of the more minor things on that list, but not well/often enough.

Just teleporting is well-night enough, though. The party being able to get from Point A to Point B on a single day's notice (or at any time, if a sorcerer takes Teleport) pretty much changes the nature of a campaign.

Matthew
2007-04-22, 08:23 AM
Aren't there magical items that cover all of those?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-22, 08:25 AM
To a limited extent. They won't be nearly as good as the wizard, and they'll take up large sums of cash-money.

SMDVogrin
2007-04-22, 08:31 AM
Here are the things you pretty much can't do without a real arcanist:

-Teleport. This is a huge deal. This alone warrants an arcane caster, and the difference between a party which can teleport and one that can't is enormous.
-Sleep in nearly-complete safety.
-Debuff enemies, lowering the damage the party takes drastically.
-Cast effects like Invisibility en masse.
-Scry and perform other useful divinations.
-Reshape the environment.
-Send messages over long distances.
-Fly, until you buy very expensive items later.
-Deal with magic you encounter (dispelling and so on).


None of which really matter, given a GM who does not abuse the situation. They lack certain capabilities which most D&Ders have. So? Are they having fun? Certainly sounds like they're not particularly hurting for not having one, and if they're enjoying the game, why not?

Seriously, you sound like the man is committing blasphemy.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-22, 08:42 AM
They can play however they want and if they're having fun, great. It does mean you won't be able to do things a normal party can, which was my point.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-22, 10:08 AM
Swordsage is the new monk. Bigger, better, and just way cooler. You're gonna enjoy this guy.

I can't see too much trouble with playing without spellcasting at lower levels. Hell, if everyone's using ToB, I can even see a party making it all the way to around level 15 before the sore lack of casting even becomes very apparent. It's just the end-game to 20 and epics where you really, truly need casters because of some of the abusive enemies there are which need to be countered/debuffed/killed immediately before everyone meets a sticky death/etc. Of course, a wise DM will level CR's down accordingly or just not throw those kinds of enemies at you much.

But as a player, you should be permanently paranoid of your DM. He's trying to kill you. He's trying to kill you all.

Deel
2007-04-22, 10:44 AM
Yeah, we just had everyone choose what they wanted to play independant of eachother for our group, so it's got a duskblade as our biggest caster, but I trust our DM not to go completely overboard and throw stuff that we couldn't possibly handle without a wizard. Plus, I enjoy play where you can't use all the luxuries posted above, well, at least the environment reshaping/safe-housing/teleporting, it creates a more interesting adventure as I see it.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-22, 10:59 AM
Plus, I enjoy play where you can't use all the luxuries posted above, well, at least the environment reshaping/safe-housing/teleporting, it creates a more interesting adventure as I see it.

Really? How? I think that reshaping the environment is inherently more interesting then leaving it be. With teleporting you have a point however since it basically involves forgetting there's anything in between places. With just fighters you lose a lot of interesting and sometimes fun mechanics.

Morty
2007-04-22, 01:01 PM
Really? How? I think that reshaping the environment is inherently more interesting then leaving it be. With teleporting you have a point however since it basically involves forgetting there's anything in between places. With just fighters you lose a lot of interesting and sometimes fun mechanics.

Teleporting in D&D is not fun. Rope Trick and similiar spells are stupid and highly un-fun. And they aren't interesting either. I personally fully understand Deel's point. I prefer to play with things like teleporting and sending messages seriously toned down.

Deel
2007-04-22, 06:08 PM
My main problem with it is the simplicity it creates. Need to go somewhere? A) Been there, teleport. B) Reshape environment for easy access. C) Fly. Need to camp in the forest? Create a mansion. Need to know if something is up ahead? Scry. I mean, if that's how you want to do things, go for it. I just prefer adventures of a more... adventurey nature.

If I am braving the lands, I want to take them as they are, by foot or mount, I'll use my scouting abilities(lots of dex and move silently/hide) to see what is ahead with hopefully not being noticed, if I want to sleep in a forest, I'll do it in a tent and a bedroll. No offense to those who do like to use those kind of things, I do plan on buying wings of flying for combat/hard to reach places later, but that's about it in terms of magical ability, I just see my adventurers being a little more... adventurous. And yes, I realize it is all perspective, like everything besides mechanics in DnD, as I already said, if you like it, go for it.

I also just realized I have never played with or as a full-caster(well, Arcane, I am a divine caster for another campaign), the only casters I have played with were a Warmage, a Beguiler, and a Duskblade(who isn't a full-caster.) I've been generally alright with the results, my teams tend to be full of beat'em up style characters, ranged attackers, or specialty mages. The campaign this character is for is the most melee team I have ever been in: OA Samurai going Iaijitsu Master(ie: the not so very crappy samurai), Duskblade, Fighter gone Forsaker(which I don't like, but his choice), Barbarian hopefully not going Frenzied Berserker), and a Swordsage, which is me. Are we enjoying it? Hell yes. We beat the crap out of things. Might we have trouble? Sure, but as I said, I doubt the DM will be throwing impossible stuff at us. I'm fairly sure we'll be okay, since at least I, the Duskblade, and the Samurai seem to know how to optimize for what we want to do, and barbarian/forsaker shouldn't be too hard, except maybe forsaker, which has Vow of Poverty like problems.

Anyway, back onto the actual topic, my swordsage. I decided on this setup for starting level 6:

Stats: 10 Str 18 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha

Manuevers:

Known:
Shadow Blade: Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Blade Technique, Island of Blades(stance), Dance of the Spider(stance)
Diamond Mind: Mind Over Body, Insightful Strike, Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Desert Wind: Burning Blade, Burning Brand
Setting Sun: Mighty Throw, Devastating Throw, Step of the Wind(stance)
Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap, Claw at the Moon

Set: Burning Blade, Burning Brand, Mind Over Body, Insightful Strike, Island of Blades(stance), Devastating Throw, Sudden Leap

Feat Progression:

1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike(Swordsage Bonus), Two-Weapon Fighting(Flaw Bonus), Adaptive Style(Flaw Bonus), Shadow Blade(Human Bonus)
2 -
3 - Weapon Finesse(unarmed strike)
4 -
5 -
6 - Improved Trip

We got to use flaws too, so that definitely helped.

Using boosts to help offense, Burning Blade is pretty nice, Burning Brand allows me to reach for a full attack. Sudden Leap can let me get right next to the enemy without taking a move action, though the roll is random. Island of Blades helps make up for the -2 from TWF, and helps allies hit easier. I decided to focus a little on tripping for a bit of battlefield control with tripping/Setting Sun manuevers, and I can toss them right next to me like a normal trip with a bonus to the check and deal them some damage. I just love the idea of throwing people around, it's one of the things a martial artist monk should have been able to do, and with swordsage, kind of can, minus the monk.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-22, 08:34 PM
I actually approve of Improved Natural Attack. INA stacks with Superior Unarmed Strike. ::grin::

Asaris
2007-04-23, 07:21 AM
I was under the impression that unarmed strikes were not natural attacks?

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-23, 07:32 AM
Re-read the monk class.

Talya
2007-04-23, 08:21 AM
Shouldn't an unarmed swordsage be called a fistsage?

Person_Man
2007-04-23, 09:14 AM
As someone who never plays with a cleric and has never seen a non-bard arcane spellcaster above level 3 I have trouble seeing the necesity of magic. Being a level 1 wizard is just too boring for most of the people in my group and nobody wants to play a cleric.

I'd take combat expertise and improved trip and grapple but with maneuvers those aren't so necesary..

If used correctly, arcane magic has the ability to win virtually any combat, reshape the plot, and it can solve virtually every Skill encounter. (Divine magic can do it as for many situations if you have the proper Domains). The difference between D&D with and without arcane magic is huge, especially at high levels. A good DM can work their way around any issue. But I for one find games without arcane magic boring, at least from a tactical point of view.


Back on topic: If this campaign isn't going to make it past mid levels, then Touch of Golden Ice from the Book of Exalted Deeds is always a good choice for unarmed melee types.

I prefer Snap-Kick to TWF. Snap-Kick can be used on every attack. TWF can only be used on full attacks.

If you go with Improved Trip, then Knock-Down is always a good choice, as is Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line. For bizzaro unarmed combat builds, you can go with Abberation Blood plus Inhuman Reach or Willing Deformity plus Deformity (Tall). Either will add 5 feet to your natural reach, which is huge when used properly, especially with Trip builds. Probably not worth it though when compared to Extra Readied Maneuver.

I also believe that Improved Natural Attack isn't usually worth it. You increase your average damage by a few points. Whoopee. About as effective as Weapon Specialization, a much reviled feat. And useless if you're going to be using Insightful Strike a lot.

Depending on your stats, Weapon Finesse may not be worth it either. I often see people taking it for a +1 or +2 bonus to hit. Not really worth spending a feat on. Unless your Str and Dex are at least 6 points apart (+3 bonus or higher), I wouldn't bother with it.

Deel
2007-04-23, 09:48 AM
As I said before, I don't really care about the arcane stuff, I find it a bit boring for the same reason you seem to find it interesting - it can just do anything easily. This has been established just fine. I just don't see the allure myself and don't mind the oddball team playing whatever they want even if it means we have no real caster. DM's make a campaign more around the PCs than the PCs being built for a campaign anyway, there are plenty of ways to do things without full casting capability.

Anyway, onto my character:

Snap Kick is an interesting option. It would have to wait till level 9, but it would also free up 2 more feat slots. Being able to use the extra hit on standard attacks and strikes is pretty awesome too. I might go for it, the extra feats could help.

I would take knock-down, but as I posted above, my strength is 10, and that requires 15.

The weapon finesse thing isn't a big issue, since I have 18 Dex as opposed to 10 Str, and Dex helps my AC and scouting as well as applying to damage through Shadow Blade.

Edit: I just noticed that with Snap Kick over TWF I could get the prerequisites for Master of Nine by my last 5 levels, with one feat to spare at 18. I think I'm going to go for that, the ability to pick up some White Raven stuff is too tempting, Iron Heart Surge is pretty nice too, and I will be able to pick up the prereqs for the ninth level Devoted Spirit Manuever and get it by second level of Mo9. I think it's worth it, I lose Improved Evasion and Dual Boost, but gain so much.