Dnd 3.5 Necromancer ideas

[FrostKnight]

im gonna be playing a arcane caster strategist in the next story section in are campaign. i have played a dervish strategist. and genius of knowledges jade pheonix mage.
now im playing a pure arcane casting necromancer tactics master. i know of some feats to use. undead mastery, undead battries. etc
my stats are gonna be something like 10,12,16,12,18,18. and never really pure caster noraml melee or melee caster. and never played the guy who gives the plans on how to do a mission. so very new for me got any ideas for classes or feats and even a race?
my guy is neatural evil and wants to have the ultimate army of undead. dragons and varrying other magical beast.

[OldTrees1]

Human Dread Necromancer 9 / Halruuan Adept 5 is a nice build for an undead army. It is a bit feat intensive and you will want to also want the Chain Spell feat.

The prestige class lets you boost your caster level to 40. Since your Chain Command Undead army increases by the square of your caster level ...

[FrostKnight]

its a feat sensative campaign
and also more than likely epic level at least some

[OldTrees1]

If it is going to be epic, then we will need more information. There is a lot of variance between how different tables fix epic and how powerful epic levels are.

I would either suggest a Dread Necromancer 20 or a Elven Generalist 20(high optimization).

[gorfnab]

These should be of some use:
Necromancer Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2733)
Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)

[FrostKnight]

well its a multiple story campaign like 4 we have completed one are doing then 2nd and the 3rd ill be this guy.. at the end of all 4 all groups met up and we continue on with the story so im not sure how far hell go in those levels. 21-25 maybe idk how the dm plans on the finale chapter going.

[Vizzerdrix]

If you are going to be the only arcane caster, then Dread Necro 8/ Mage of the Arcane Order 7 is scary good. You'll have to come to terms with lighting a few of your feats on fire and kicking them into the street, but it pays off.

To that end, Strongheart halfling into necropolitain. Dark chaos shuffle away your unwanted weapon proficiencies as well.

[FrostKnight]

my buddy is playing a loki themed character, and a front liner with a scythe and some kinda whirl wind aoe fighting build he was talking about, and my other friend is the leader, of are group he is a sundering archer, or sniper hasnt decided yet.
so we have me tactical advisor, so i need abillites to retreat and weaken enemies. and supllie allies on the fly i figure with necromancy i could exploding deathless skeletons dealing +1d6 cold damage every hit, draining them for meta magics and cast debuffs on the enemy.
my other frined is building a begilier, and i think the DM let him be a human shadow craft mage... so illusion guy.
then he is playing a frontliner also since we dont have one... some kinda Scythe wilding aoe tripping whirlwinding thing, i know a bunch of melee build not sure how he plans on this working yet still figuring it out.
then the final memeber is gonna be a archer.
so that what im working with as the tactics guy i figured there being ONE front liner we could use a undead army plus i really wanna play a necromancer.

[Ger. Bessa]

Make a twisted valkyrie. Speak with dead monsters with class levels and animate dread warrior them.

You can go LN dread necro->rainbow servant (for the wings !)

Or classic spellstitched necropolitan for the animate dread warrior sla.

Play pokemon with your einerjhars (pretty sure I misplaced the h)

[FrostKnight]

where is twisted Valkyrie at?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would go as follows:

paladin of tyranny 2/dread necromancer 8/horned harbinger 2/halruaan elder 5/incantatrix 3

Harbinger is from Faiths & Pantheons. You can take practiced spellcaster to cancel out the four caster levels you lose from paladin and harbinger, or just use circle magic every day.

You get only 16th-level casting, but you do have charisma to saves, circle magic, and some fun abilities.

You get animate dead as a spell-like ability, once per day (that saves you the onyx cost). Your caster level for animate dead is equal to your caster level + your harbinger level + your charisma modifier. Thanks to DN 8, you can control 4 + your charisma modifier HD's worth of undead per caster level.

Apparently, you have 25 charisma. Put +5 increases, a +4 tome and a +6 item in there, and you have 40 charisma. Your caster level is now 40 [circle magic] + 2 [harbinger levels] + 15 [charisma modifier] = CL 57. You can control 19 HD of undead per level, for a total of 1083 HD.

Even better: add a (persistent) consumptive field somehow, to increase your caster level by another 20. A custom 1/day item of consumptive field costs 4 * 7 * 1800 / 5 = 10.080 gp. You can also get some nice bonuses to charisma*: +4 profane, +4 morale, +4 sacred, +8 enhancement (instead of the +6 item). Let's call that 54 charisma, a modifier of 22. You can persist all these buffs, they help your regular spellcasting as well.

You're now casting animate dead at CL 40 [circle magic] + 20 [consumptive field] + 2 [harbinger levels] + 22 [charisma modifier] = CL 84. You are controlling 26 HD of undead per level, for a total of 2184 HD. Thanks to your spell-like ability, it's 54600 gp cheaper to cast, as well.

You can get your caster level even higher if you're willing to be a drow, by going into yathrinshee for a one level (you need animate dead as divine spell, and the patron deity is incompatible with HH, so that takes some effort, too). Yathrinshee allows you to stack all your caster levels for necromancy spells, and is partially theurgic itself (6 double caster levels, 4 levels without any casting ability). If you're allowed to use circle magic & consumptive field for arcane and divine at the same time, you can effectively double your caster level. More than double: consumptive field is a necromancy spell, so you can use your circle magic'd arcane + divine levels (total 80) to cast the field for +40 to both caster levels, giving you CL 160 + 2 + cha (or possibly +4 +2*cha, as the HH bonus applies to arcane and divine both). That's without touching repeated castings of consumptive field, or any other loop.

* Devil's Ego (FC2), Snowsong (FB), Righteous Aura (SPC), Nixie's Grace (SPC) respectively.

[OldTrees1]

You're now casting animate dead at CL 40 [circle magic] + 20 [consumptive field] + 2 [harbinger levels] + 22 [charisma modifier] = CL 84. You are controlling 26 HD of undead per level, for a total of 2184 HD. Thanks to your spell-like ability, it's 54600 gp cheaper to cast, as well.

I liked this post except for this part. That 84 caster level would be put to better use on Chain Command Undead. Each reserved 5th level slot per day would net 21*84 = 252 undead of max HD. If sticking to 20HD undead that would be 5040HD. Then consider reserving multiple 5th level slots.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I liked this post except for this part. That 84 caster level would be put to better use on Chain Command Undead. Each reserved 5th level slot per day would net 21*84 = 252 undead of max HD. If sticking to 20HD undead that would be 5040HD. Then consider reserving multiple 5th level slots.
Fair enough, fair enough, I understand that 2000 HD is not enough, but that won't work.

First of all, chain command undead affects 21 undead, not 21 per caster level. If command undead affected more than one target, it would not be eligible for chain spell.
Second, remember that you don't get your charisma modifier (or HH level) to your caster level for anything besides animate dead. You'd be casting at a miserable CL 60.
Third, 21 * 84 is 1764, not 252.

Chain command undead is still very useful, because you can grab undead that you can't create through animate dead, but it won't give you the absolutely massive amounts of HD (if only because the spell doesn't use HD).

[OldTrees1]

Fair enough, fair enough, I understand that 2000 HD is not enough, but that won't work.

First of all, chain command undead affects 21 undead, not 21 per caster level. If command undead affected more than one target, it would not be eligible for chain spell.
Second, remember that you don't get your charisma modifier (or HH level) to your caster level for anything besides animate dead. You'd be casting at a miserable CL 60.
Third, 21 * 84 is 1764, not 252.

Chain command undead is still very useful, because you can grab undead that you can't create through animate dead, but it won't give you the absolutely massive amounts of HD (if only because the spell doesn't use HD).

Command Undead affects a single target. Chain Spell multiplies this to 21 targets. Command Undead lasts caster level days. By reserving a slot per day you get caster level castings of Command Undead before the cycle comes round again. So by reserving a 5th level slot per day you get 21 targets per day * caster level days. (Hence the 21*caster level)

Thanks for correcting my math. When you said 84 caster level I thought you meant caster level not caster level+Cha. I also did not know HH only added to animate dead. Weird.

So it is 21*60=1260 undead (or 25,200HD if using 20HD undead).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Command Undead affects a single target. Chain Spell multiplies this to 21 targets. Command Undead lasts caster level days. By reserving a slot per day you get caster level castings of Command Undead before the cycle comes round again. So by reserving a 5th level slot per day you get 21 targets per day * caster level days. (Hence the 21*caster level)
Ah, I didn't think of that :smallsigh:. Yes, that's a much better way to get loads of undead under your control. It also makes HH and DN a lot less useful, and with that my build. How annoying :smalltongue:.

There is, however, a big advantage to animate dead: as an instantaneous effect, it can't be dispelled or surpressed, and you don't have to give verbal commands.

Animate dead scales proportional to (CL + 2 + CHA) * (4 + CHA).
Command undead scales proportional to 21 * CL * HD per target * 5th-level spells/day (which scales with charisma).

CL must be at least 20 (max chain targets), and CHA at least +2 (15 cha to cast 5th-level spells). Let's assume the HD/target is 20, because you're using skeletons (we already know that command is far better for anything besides skeletons). Also, let's assume we can scale CL and CHA as much as we want.

You get a bonus 5th-level slot for every +4 modifier past +1, so you get an extra casting per day per 4 points of (CHA - 1). You can increase that by considering 6th-level spells - every +4 charisma bonus past 2 gives you one slot. Long story short, you get 5 castings/4 points of (CHA - 5), plus a fraction (.5 + .25 + .125 + .0625 + .03125 = 0.96875) from versatile spellcaster. Let's call that 1.25 castings per point of CHA, ignoring the 5 and versatile spellcaster, and rounding the fraction up. The 5 becomes insignificant at very high charisma scores.

Wait... if we're ignoring insignificant constants...

For very high CL and CHA, we can just look at CL and CHA alone. We don't have to consider higher-level spells, because you won't ever get more than 1.5 slots/point of CHA (except if you have a scaling number of improved spell capacity feats, but let's say you don't). In short:

Animate dead: proportional to CL * CHA + CHA2
Command undead: proportional to CL * CHA

For each CL, there must be some charisma score for which animate dead provide more controlled HD of undead than command undead, because of the quadratic term. Now, it's been a while since I did algebra, and I don't really want to figure it out entirely, so I'm just going to approximate a few. These are done assuming you spend all your spells from level 5-9 on maintaining your army.

With a caster level of 20, you need a charisma modifier of ~10.500.
With a caster level of 100, it's ~52.500.
With a caster level of 1000, it's ~524.000.

I think it's safe to say that command undead practically always beats animate dead. You need a charisma modifier of roughly 500 times (20 HD * 21 targets * 1.25 spells/day/CHA = ~524) your caster level to make it worthwhile to animate.

And a thank you to WolframAlpha (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Thanks.).

Now I have the image of the mighty Lord of the Undead, Creator of Hordes, Despoiler of the Living, and his fabled Book of the Dead, which contains his soldiers' appointments with the Inspector of Teeth. Because you know you got to see them twice a year to keep them aware!

[Wolfepuppy]

How does a spontaneous caster qualify for mage of the arcane order without doing in a prepared caster, dread necro/moao sounds fun

[OldTrees1]

Ah, I didn't think of that :smallsigh:. Yes, that's a much better way to get loads of undead under your control. It also makes HH and DN a lot less useful, and with that my build. How annoying :smalltongue:.

That 2nd level of HH is a nice boost pre epic since it boosts the max HD of your undead to 2*(CL+Cha) AND it gives Animate as a spell-like ability.
DN is always useful for the Rebuke Undead, Cha casting, and Spontaneous casting.

[Vizzerdrix]

How does a spontaneous caster qualify for mage of the arcane order without doing in a prepared caster, dread necro/moao sounds fun

The Arcane Preperation feat from Comp. Arcane.

[Wolfepuppy]

The Arcane Preperation feat from Comp. Arcane.

Thanks I was trying to find it through searching on Google but was having little luck

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Necromancer Tactician, eh? There's several ways to do this.

1) Scarecrow. Paladin of Tyranny2/Dread Necro7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro/any other spell-advancing PrC

In effect, you are an area-effect lockdown. Aura of Terror (obtained via Advanced Learning) + your natural Fear aura + Black Lore of Moil (for damage application) + Fell Frighten = good times. Basically, really high DC save or be Panicked. Oh, and let's not forget picking up Arcane Disciple (Pride) for Divine Power, so you've got an effective full BAB. Casting stat to all saves doesn't hurt. And you've still got minions for decades. Either Southern Magician or NaenHoon yourself the Persist for the buffs.

Oh, even if they are immune to your fear, they're not, because of Dread Witch. Which kinda means your buddies will have to give you your room because they will also be affected by your aura, but hey... you can sweep up armies with the best of 'em.

The other option is for Pale Master9 for the free Cohort. Make sure it's a Bard with Requium and DFI. Congratulations, now the whole party and your minions are now so buffed to heck and back that there's not much that can stand up to 'em. Double bonus if you build with War Chanter10 in the Bard build, which gives everyone affected by the music (give him an Alphorn with an area effect measured in miles if you have a truly staggeringly large army) a BAB equal to the BAB of the highest individual affected. So those little 1hd minions? Now have a +40ish to attack, and their damage output is enough to take down just about anything. This build has amazing buffing and decent debuffing (enervation and fear effects) and some truly sick damage output multipliers at the cost of personal survivability.

[dantiesilva]

I happened to make a necromancer off of the story King of the black Isles, in one attack she can deliver -24 strength, while she also has a skeleton minion that comes from trading away her familiar. At level 6 I thought this was pretty cool. Used Empower spell, fell weaken, easy metamagic, and metamagic school focus on the spell Escalating Enfeeblement and well it was a bit brutal. I am sure others could do this much better however here is her build as well as her minion.

Queen of the black Isles (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=214330)

The queens lover/minon (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=216416)

I used NPC wealth by level for her, so she can easily have those DCs boosted. And I was suggested to hand wave int instead of con for health which made her more likly to survive in close range combat. Hope this helps you.

[FrostKnight]

what if i did death master and plae master.
could my death master cohort be a minotaur with the fear aoe build?
and the pale master that has the BArd buffer?

[Socratov]

Well, I'd build a necromancer starting with 6 levels of warlock, and then continue doing whatever I wanted, making the more intelligent lieutenants off of scrolls and wands. You get to use animate dead without obsidian for temporary undead, and jam their heads full of it in case you do want them to stick around. Perfect for E6 and just what I use atm.

That said, You could go the bard route, take the feat to affect undead with your music (I forgot where it is), and go into sublime chord to pick up the sorc/wizard list for necromancy spells and finish those with Virtuoso. Take some feats related to creating undead and you're golden. Combine with DFI and you've got yourself a great build for minion mancy with basic undead actually doing damage and stuff.

I find that one of the worst things to face as a necromancer is a place where meddling with life and (un)death is frowned upon. And who wouldn't love a bard?