Unchained Monk Help

[BRKNdevil]

So... I was looking at the Unchained Monk and it seems like it sucks less the normal monk. I was wondering if i could keep the MAD down by dumping strength and charisma while keeping Int at 10 and CON at 14 and just holding on to a amulet of mighty fists with Agile on it. Say I'm joining a group at level 5. Should i bother investing in str at all if i have that magic item? What other magic items should i go for? Is there a way to prevent agile being taken away from me at any point?

[Psyren]

If you're going to start with one I wouldn't worry about Str, no. Honestly, you can get through the starting levels without it too, as at low levels

You have to protect ir from Sunder and Steal, which you'd do by having a decent CMD - which you want anyway, because you're in melee. But the Unchaned Monk is well set up in that regard - you get Wis to CMD, then additional bonuses from levels, and the Unchained Monk gets access to various dodge bonuses, plus most monsters will not be suited for going after your amulet anyway. So I wouldn't worry about this. That leaves casters suppressing it with a dispel, which is also something you're not likely to come across much - generally, they'd be better off aiming the dispel at you than at your gear, or trying for an area dispel on you and your team, and this too is something few monsters will have access to. So the long story short is that you probably shouldn't worry about this bonus being removed.

As for other items - the Unchained Monk is extremely ki hungry; even without the Qinggong powers thrown in, almost every other power they use is fueled by the stuff too. so you'll want a ring of ki mastery or two, a ki mat spread out in the party's wagon, and you'll want to combine your amulet of mighty fists with a necklace of ki serenity. Anything you can do to boost the pool will help. Consider taking vows as well, but be warned that dropping Still Mind is more of a tradeoff for the Unchained Monk because of their weak will save.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Somewhat related to combining items, but the Necklace of Spectral Strikes, a mythic item, is an neck slot item that turns into a tattoo. Itself modifies unarmed strikes, but is a base item rather than a customizable one like the AoMF.

[BRKNdevil]

ok, so dreamscarred published their initiator expansion, and there is a feat called deadly agility. I'm now wondering if there is some equivalent to flaws from unearthed arcana for 3.5 that i can use in pathfinder to nab some extra feats to spend on weapon finesse and deadly agility.

[Extra Anchovies]

ok, so dreamscarred published their initiator expansion, and there is a feat called deadly agility. I'm now wondering if there is some equivalent to flaws from unearthed arcana for 3.5 that i can use in pathfinder to nab some extra feats to spend on weapon finesse and deadly agility.

Why do you need extra feat slots for it? Really all you need to function as a monk is those two feats; thanks to Flying Kick, even Pummeling Style isn't strictly necessary (but it's still really good, especially when paired with Combat Stamina for standard-action pummeling). Play as a human and you can have WF and DA at 1st, or any other race can get them by 3rd.

[Ssalarn]

Why do you need extra feat slots for it? Really all you need to function as a monk is those two feats; thanks to Flying Kick, even Pummeling Style isn't strictly necessary (but it's still really good, especially when paired with Combat Stamina for standard-action pummeling). Play as a human and you can have WF and DA at 1st, or any other race can get them by 3rd.

This was pretty much my advice as well. Unchained Monk has the really cool distinction of actually being a really solid class, so there's a lot you can do with it. I actually kept Dex as a tertiary stat since the UC Monk wants ki so badly and relied on Wis for the bulk of my AC (also useful since UC Monk has a poor Will save), and kept just enough Dex that I could pick up the TWF feats as stat boosting belts became available.

[Extra Anchovies]

This was pretty much my advice as well. Unchained Monk has the really cool distinction of actually being a really solid class, so there's a lot you can do with it. I actually kept Dex as a tertiary stat since the UC Monk wants ki so badly and relied on Wis for the bulk of my AC (also useful since UC Monk has a poor Will save), and kept just enough Dex that I could pick up the TWF feats as stat boosting belts became available.

Wait. You can stack TWF with uMonk's flurry?

...oh mah dayum.

I need to play one of these, stat. They don't seem to have much to do outside of combat, which is a concern, but there's probably something I'm missing. Do they have any noncombat abilities other than their skills and the Qinggong powers?

[grarrrg]

Wait. You can stack TWF with uMonk's flurry?

Not very likely.
Unflurry:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what's already granted by the flurry for doing so"

[Ssalarn]

Not very likely.
Unflurry:
"He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what's already granted by the flurry for doing so"

Using multiple weapons in an attack sequence doesn't give you extra attacks anyways, using two-weapon fighting does... You're probably interpreting that correctly though. I assumed it was a thinly veiled natural attack reference.

[Laughingmanlol]

As an alternative to the 3rd party Deadly Agility, what about taking a 1-level dip in uRogue, and using Finesse Training on your unarmed strikes?
However, your combat abilities might suffer from the BAB loss and delayed monk advancement (though Sneak attack could compensate), and if you reach level 20 you'd miss out on the capstone.

[Eldaran]

As an alternative to the 3rd party Deadly Agility, what about taking a 1-level dip in uRogue, and using Finesse Training on your unarmed strikes?
However, your combat abilities might suffer from the BAB loss and delayed monk advancement (though Sneak attack could compensate), and if you reach level 20 you'd miss out on the capstone.

You need three levels of uRogue to get dex to damage, first level only gives Weapon Finesse. Not that it's a bad idea, you still only lose 1 BAB but net 2d6 sneak and a rogue talent... But overall, I think uMonks are much better off just getting a Guided AoMF if you can afford it, they gain so much benefit from Wisdom.

[PsyBomb]

Use an AoMF with the Guided property, trust me. You want that Wis, and Guided works out better than Agile if you wis-stack

[animewatcha]

Using multiple weapons in an attack sequence doesn't give you extra attacks anyways, using two-weapon fighting does... You're probably interpreting that correctly though. I assumed it was a thinly veiled natural attack reference.

"At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what's already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects).

At 11th level, a monk can make an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus whenever he makes a flurry of blows. This stacks with the first attack from this ability and additional attacks from haste and similar effects."


It helps if the whole thing was quoted instead of just part. I too am questioning TWF and am thinking that he/she is using the bolded part to justify getting TWF.

[Psyren]

"haste and similar effects" should be parsed as "haste, and effects similar to haste, like a speed weapon, rain of blows etc." UnMonk cannot TWF+Flurry - nobody can do this except the Brawler, who gets it baked in anyway.

[Extra Anchovies]

"haste and similar effects" should be parsed as "haste, and effects similar to haste, like a speed weapon, rain of blows etc." UnMonk cannot TWF+Flurry - nobody can do this except the Brawler, who gets it baked in anyway.

I suppose that's true. They probably intended for TWF to count as extra attacks from wielding multiple weapons, and that's probably going to be clarified in the FAQ pretty soon.

Still an awesome beatstick class, though.

[Yanisa]

I suppose that's true. They probably intended for TWF to count as extra attacks from wielding multiple weapons, and that's probably going to be clarified in the FAQ pretty soon.

Still an awesome beatstick class, though.

Two-weapon-fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Two-Weapon-Fighting) is an extra attack from wielding multiple weapons.

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

[Ssalarn]

Use an AoMF with the Guided property, trust me. You want that Wis, and Guided works out better than Agile if you wis-stack

If you're using 3rd party materials this is probably good advice, but I feel compelled to just note real quick that Guided is a 3.5 property with no modern PF equivalent. Sensei can get the effect from a 2nd level class feature though, and characters who can channel can get it with two feats (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#guided-hand), although the weapons it applies to are limited in both instances.

[Extra Anchovies]

If you're using 3rd party materials this is probably good advice, but I feel compelled to just note real quick that Guided is a 3.5 property with no modern PF equivalent.

Huh. Nice catch. Didn't know that Paizo's 3.5 content was also hosted on the PFSRD.

[PsyBomb]

If you're using 3rd party materials this is probably good advice, but I feel compelled to just note real quick that Guided is a 3.5 property with no modern PF equivalent. Sensei can get the effect from a 2nd level class feature though, and characters who can channel can get it with two feats (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/ultimateCombatFeats.html#guided-hand), although the weapons it applies to are limited in both instances.

We're both half-right here. It was reprinted in a minor supplement, Pathfinder 10. It is on the PFSRD with that note

[Yanisa]

We're both half-right here. It was reprinted in a minor supplement, Pathfinder 10. It is on the PFSRD with that note

PF#10 A History of Ashes is 3.5 (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/A_History_of_Ashes). Yes there was pathfinder 3.5 before there was pathfinder pathfinder, it can be confusing.

[Ssalarn]

We're both half-right here. It was reprinted in a minor supplement, Pathfinder 10. It is on the PFSRD with that note

"A History of Ashes", the sourcebook referenced on the pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided), predates the Pathfinder CRB; it's a 3.5 Pathfinder supplement from back when Paizo was doing 3.5 APs and hadn't even created the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game yet.


***EDIT***

Swordsaged

[PsyBomb]

PF#10 A History of Ashes is 3.5 (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/A_History_of_Ashes). Yes there was pathfinder 3.5 before there was pathfinder pathfinder, it can be confusing.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the link

EDIT: and Ssalarn as well

[TomatoFett]

If you're using 3rd party materials this is probably good advice, but I feel compelled to just note real quick that Guided is a 3.5 property with no modern PF equivalent. Sensei can get the effect from a 2nd level class feature though, and characters who can channel can get it with two feats, although the weapons it applies to are limited in both instances.

Insightful Strike doesn't add your wis mod to damage, only attack. Guided, on the other hand (while still acknowledging it being 3rd party), adds your wis mod to both attack and damage.

Incidentally, what is the second of the two feats you recommend? The link you provided goes (sort of) to Guided Hand (Wis to attack). Presumably the second feat you alluded to add wis to damage. Do you know which it was?

Guided Weapon

Source: Pathfinder 10.

Aura moderate evocation; CL 7th; Slot weapon quality; Price +1 bonus.
Description

A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use his instinct when striking blows with it.
Editor's Note
This 3.5 weapon enhancement was intended to be for melee weapons only.

Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.

This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed weapons or off-hand weapons—it always remains equal to the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes against the weapon’s nature and imparts a –2 penalty on all attack rolls made in this manner.


Insightful Strike (Ex)

At 2nd level, a sensei may use his Wisdom bonus in lieu of his Strength or Dexterity on attack rolls and combat maneuver checks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons.

This ability replaces evasion and the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.



Actually, I'm kind of bent that this weapon property hasn't been pulled over yet. There are a number of classes to whom this would be a huge boon.

[grarrrg]

Incidentally, what is the second of the two feats you recommend? The link you provided goes (sort of) to Guided Hand (Wis to attack).

Guided Hand _IS_ the second feat. But you must first have Channeling ability and spend the first feat on Channel Smite.

[Seward]

I've played a character built around Dervish Dance feat (halfling tank. She's awesome). Yes, if you start play with an Agile amulet of mighty fists, you can dump strength. (don't hold back, dump it all the way to 7. It isn't like you have to carry much as a monk. Drop a skill point into climb and swim if that bugs you)

The main rap on your approach is that it costs an extra feat (weapon finesse) and that before you can afford the amulet you absolutely suck. But starting at level 5, you'll be fine on both fronts. The unchained monk is a quite strong melee class although it'll be easier to do the light infantry route (mobile, high damage, middling to low AC) than the tank route (routinely high AC and solid but not amazing damage)

[Psyren]

I wouldn't dump strength as a uMonk myself; if you hit medium encumbrance, you lose your AC bonus and fast movement. 10 is fine even for a Dex- or Wis-based build.

At 15 Point Buy on a Dex-monk, I would go with: Str 10, DEX 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7, all increases to Dex. 20 PB (PFS) gives you even more leeway.

Speaking of Wis, one way to get Wis to damage is via style feats (Shaitan Style, Dragon Style and Marid Style) + Elemental Fist. As written, you still get uses per day = your level even if you aren't a Monk of the Four Winds.

EDIT: Another nice option for Dex-based uMonks is the Monk of the Mantis from Dirty Tactics Toolbox, which gets sneak attack when you flurry. Combine with Stunning Fist and you can enable sneak attack against many foes even without flanking them. You can even throw in Jabbing Style for even more bonus damage.

[Sayt]

One thing to note about uFlurry, is that unlike normal flurry, it doesn't seem to restrict you to 1xStrength, so weapons like the Sansetsukon or Seven Branched Sword become more attractive. The only downside is that you don't get your style strikes off of weapon attacks.

On the other hand, if you're only making a few unarmed strikes per round, you can get away with a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes instead of a full Amulet of Natural Weapons.

[Psyren]

Yes, 2H weapons become much more attractive in a uMonk's hands, or 1H weapons held in both hands and then released at the end of your turn so you can deflect arrows/crane riposte/etc.

Body Wrap however is a trap. It only enhances a limited number of attacks per round (and AoOs count against that limit), and does not scale with flurry, so a monk always ends up with more attacks than the wrap can enhance even just on his own turn. A better option is to either use AoMF, or buy a Pearl of Power so the party caster can hit you with GMW every morning (and rely on your ki strike to beat DR.)

For style strikes, you don't need to worry about enhancing them - you can for instance stick with Flying Kick, which can be used even with your hands full and doesn't need to hit to be useful.

One of my personal favorite options is Blade of the Sword Saint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/blade-of-the-sword-saint), a ki intensifying katana from UE with the monk property (thus uMonks are proficient with it and you can flurry with it) and has 18-20 crit range. In addition, you still count as unarmed while using it, so you can still use deflect arrows etc.

[Sayt]

Body Wrap however is a trap. It only enhances a limited number of attacks per round (and AoOs count against that limit), and does not scale with flurry, so a monk always ends up with more attacks than the wrap can enhance even just on his own turn. A better option is to either use AoMF, or buy a Pearl of Power so the party caster can hit you with GMW every morning (and rely on your ki strike to beat DR.)

For style strikes, you don't need to worry about enhancing them - you can for instance stick with Flying Kick, which can be used even with your hands full and doesn't need to hit to be useful.


Flying kick doesn't need to hit to be useful, but you eventually get, IIRC, four style strikes known and can use two per round. Plus, its nice to get free trips, free AC.

On a normal unarmed strike monk, the Body Wrap is a trap, yes. But on a weapon focused monk, getting a but I'm talking about being say, 15th level, having a +3 Sansetsukon and a +2 Body Wrap, and making most of your attacks with the Sansetsukon, but and using the Body Wrap to grant an enhancement bonus on the flying kick, and Leg Sweep kick, both of which you want to hit, and the enhancement bonus carries over onto the Trip attempt from Leg Sweep.

In this situation, where the Unarmed Strike is a secondary or backup attack, the Body Wrap is more economical than an Amulet of Might Fists.

[Psyren]

In this situation, where the Unarmed Strike is a secondary or backup attack, the Body Wrap is more economical than an Amulet of Might Fists.

A +2 to a weapon you aren't even investing in isn't likely to hit. You'd need to go all the way up to +5 for CR-appropriate foes, and that's 75,000gp (plus a body slot) that you could have invested into other items instead. I'm still not impressed.

Also, Leg Sweep is terrible, use Spin Kick instead. You can trip with that too, only you're attacking flat-footed CMD instead of regular.