Polymorphing with a Squishy Wizard

[Sir Nibbits]

I've read quite a bit about the unnatural shenanigans that is polymorph across the internet and have had several opportunities to experience it in game. However, it seems to me that one of the wizards biggest weaknesses is still present and exploitable: very low hp. Even if one becomes a large hydra that can dish out ridiculous damage, its still feasible to be one shot by an attack or two from most encounters at the level. Has any polymorpher solved this issue of low hp?

[Story]

The solution is to get more HP, obviously.

Con is usually listed as the second most important stats for Wizard unless you're going Necropolitan or taking Farie Mysteries Initiate.

[Eldariel]

If you want to be an actual combat beast? Since we're talking about Polymorph, I assume we're talking around level 7-10 when it first becomes available. As always, the best way to defend is not getting hit. If you can quicken Mirror Image or cast Greater Mirror Image or something, that's a nice start. Combine with Greater Invisibility, Greater Blinking or something like that and you have a very reasonable defensive setup. And yes, it does take time to cast the buffs but generally, if you do plan on engaging in melee, you'll want to set the terms. Further, you should obviously have the long duration buffs up (False Life offers a decent chunk of temporary HP, Mage Armor has the AC & such).

The thing to always keep in mind is that if you are vulnerable to your enemy's weapon, you're already at a risk. If you're flying and enemy doesn't have a meaningful ranged attack or if enemy is blind and you're kiting them, you're relatively safe but I've seen a blind enemy kill a l3 Barbarian in one crit (blinded by Glitterdust) because it happened to guess the right square, rolled high on miss chance and rolled double 20. Extremely unlikely but possible. To that end, entering melee in Polymorph gives you an edge but is still risky, so it shouldn't be your first option. If you do have to, use stuff to minimize the chance of getting hit. If possible, use stuff to be entirely immune to what you are getting hit by.

[Ellowryn]

Polymorph abuse isnt so much about using polymorph to get into melee but rather abusing the special abilities of the various forms you can take to make your spellcasting even better. Special movement modes, armor, extra actions, etc are some of the things to be looked at.

[Venger]

I've read quite a bit about the unnatural shenanigans that is polymorph across the internet and have had several opportunities to experience it in game. However, it seems to me that one of the wizards biggest weaknesses is still present and exploitable: very low hp. Even if one becomes a large hydra that can dish out ridiculous damage, its still feasible to be one shot by an attack or two from most encounters at the level. Has any polymorpher solved this issue of low hp?

it's certainly possible, but if playing in a party with low-tier characters like your archetypal BSFs, it's generally regarded as bad manners. as expounded on in treantmonk's wizard guide, spells like polymorph are often best spent on your brute friends than yourself.

as already discussed, your low HP are problematic, as is your poor BA, depending on your level. you also probably don't have any combat feats like PA, so you're not hitting as hard as someone who does.

that said, if you're dead-set on playing the whole game yourself, there are plenty of ways to get a fat pad of temp HP. amulet of tears is a good enough item for a few dozen to spare.

[Sir Nibbits]

That makes sense. It would be kinda ridiculous for the wizard to take up literally every role. If one was to make a character based on the concept of polymorph, would it make more sense just to play a master of many forms druid?

[Cruiser1]

Has any polymorpher solved this issue of low hp?
In 3.5, Polymorph sets your base STR, DEX, and CON. Therefore, Polymorph into something with high CON (and Persist it if you can) which will give you lots of bonus hp/level based on your new higher CON modifier. The difference between d4 and d12 HD is only 4 hp on average randomly rolled, so a level 20 Barbarian and a level 20 Wizard will only differ by 80 hp assuming equivalent CON. Similarly, that's why Druids can dump CON, because they'll spend all their time wildshaped into something big and nasty.

Also, if you want to attend the royal ball and don't want to disturb the gentry when you show up as a Troll, cast Alter Self too, which can give you your original form, but doesn't change your stats. That allows you to have the physical stats of something tough and dangerous, and the physical appearance of a well-cultured mage. :smallsmile:

[Venger]

That makes sense. It would be kinda ridiculous for the wizard to take up literally every role. If one was to make a character based on the concept of polymorph, would it make more sense just to play a master of many forms druid?

if that's what you're after, go for it. however, you may have more fun using wild shape ranger then rounding out with nature's warrior to keep your numbers up, as discussed.

[Gnaeus]

In 3.5, Polymorph sets your base STR, DEX, and CON. Therefore, Polymorph into something with high CON (and Persist it if you can) which will give you lots of bonus hp/level based on your new higher CON modifier. The difference between d4 and d12 HD is only 4 hp on average randomly rolled, so a level 20 Barbarian and a level 20 Wizard will only differ by 80 hp assuming equivalent CON. Similarly, that's why Druids can dump CON, because they'll spend all their time wildshaped into something big:

This is false. You keep your HP. Combat Druids dump str and dex, but take a very high Con


That makes sense. It would be kinda ridiculous for the wizard to take up literally every role. If one was to make a character based on the concept of polymorph, would it make more sense just to play a master of many forms druid?

MoMF actually doesn't help here. A straight druid is better, even in straight melee. He can use spells like Bite of the WereX or Greater Magic Fang to be better than a MoMF can get.

Also, Polymorph does have some real advantages over Wildshape. Wizards and Sorcerers just don't happen to be the best at using it to become a combat beast. A cleric can copy Polymorph with Anyspell, Chameleons can get it on either divine or arcane side, lots of characters can use scrolls etc, but on a base chassis better than wizards.

[Rebel7284]

If you want to be an actual combat beast? Since we're talking about Polymorph, I assume we're talking around level 7-10 when it first becomes available. As always, the best way to defend is not getting hit. If you can quicken Mirror Image or cast Greater Mirror Image or something, that's a nice start. Combine with Greater Invisibility, Greater Blinking or something like that and you have a very reasonable defensive setup. And yes, it does take time to cast the buffs but generally, if you do plan on engaging in melee, you'll want to set the terms. Further, you should obviously have the long duration buffs up (False Life offers a decent chunk of temporary HP, Mage Armor has the AC & such).

The thing to always keep in mind is that if you are vulnerable to your enemy's weapon, you're already at a risk. If you're flying and enemy doesn't have a meaningful ranged attack or if enemy is blind and you're kiting them, you're relatively safe but I've seen a blind enemy kill a l3 Barbarian in one crit (blinded by Glitterdust) because it happened to guess the right square, rolled high on miss chance and rolled double 20. Extremely unlikely but possible. To that end, entering melee in Polymorph gives you an edge but is still risky, so it shouldn't be your first option. If you do have to, use stuff to minimize the chance of getting hit. If possible, use stuff to be entirely immune to what you are getting hit by.

All of this, but do it twice because it's all shared with your familiar. There aren't many other spells that at level 10 will give you 20 attacks due to being two hydras while your other spells make it difficult to hit either of you.

[jiriku]

Polymorph is a great spell to cast on an ally. A fighter-hydra hits more reliably than a wizard-hydra, and can soak hits. Moreover, putting a huge ten-headed monster on the battlefield has a way of getting people's attention, which draws some fire away from your squishy self and makes a tank better at doing his job.

It also has useful non-combat applications. I have successfully used polymorph to turn party members into gelatinous cubes in order to buff their Fortitude saves to shrug off negative levels when we didn't have access to any other way to remove them.

On your squishy self, polymorph is often useful not for turning you into a killing machine, but for making you non-squishy so you can focus on using your subsequent actions to win fights instead of merely stay alive. For example, turning into a treant when fighting poison-using rogues makes you immune to poison and sneak attack, considerably reducing your risk. Turning into a creature with a natural fly speed and huge natural armor when fighting a group of land-bound enemies with weak ranged attacks is likewise a strong strategy.

[Cruiser1]

This is false. You keep your HP. Combat Druids dump str and dex, but take a very high Con
That's only true in PF. In PF, the Polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph) spell acts identical to Alter Self (for Humanoid type) and doesn't change your stats, and therefore doesn't change your HP.

In 3.5, Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) does change your CON, and therefore also changes your HP. In 3.5, only Alter Self has the "your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same" clause.

[eggynack]

That's only true in PF. In PF, the Polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph) spell acts identical to Alter Self (for Humanoid type) and doesn't change your stats, and therefore doesn't change your HP.

In 3.5, Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) does change your CON, and therefore also changes your HP. In 3.5, only Alter Self has the "your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same" clause.
Perhaps true of polymorph, but definitely not true of wild shape. Since the PHB errata, wild shape inherits its text from alternate form instead of polymorph, and thus maintains HP across forms. Thus, high constitution scores are the norm for druids. I also agree with Gnaeus on the other point, incidentally. Straight druid is great for melee combat, as master of many forms is really more for utility stuff than for big beats. Besides, in addition to those buff spells, you also get to advance your companion and summoning capabilities, which is probably actually a better way to consume face.

[Venger]

That's only true in PF. In PF, the Polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph) spell acts identical to Alter Self (for Humanoid type) and doesn't change your stats, and therefore doesn't change your HP.

In 3.5, Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) does change your CON, and therefore also changes your HP. In 3.5, only Alter Self has the "your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same" clause.

polymorph is keyed off alter self.

you don't gain HP anymore, they changed that in the update to 3.5.

[Rubik]

polymorph is keyed off alter self.

you don't gain HP anymore, they changed that in the update to 3.5.Happily for those of us who love psions, Metamorphosis still gives you bonus hp from Con. Unfortunately on the same token, lower Con scores lower your hp.

[Cruiser1]

polymorph is keyed off alter self.
Polymorph indeed behaves like Alter Self, except where stated differently. A key difference of Polymorph is that unlike Alter Self it updates your CON (and therefore HP). The specific updated text in the Polymorph spell itself, should override the more distant general behavior of Alter Self that it inherits from.


you don't gain HP anymore, they changed that in the update to 3.5.
Actually, in 3.0 you didn't gain HP from polymorphing. In PHB 3.0, the spell Polymorph Self says the subject retains its "hit points (despite any change in its Constitution score)". The 3.5 update to Polymorph has removed that clause.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Polymorph indeed behaves like Alter Self, except where stated differently. A key difference of Polymorph is that unlike Alter Self it updates your CON (and therefore HP). The specific updated text in the Polymorph spell itself, should override the more distant general behavior of Alter Self that it inherits from.
Player's Handbook 2 puts it in the Polymorph subschool, though, which states that you retain your own hit points unless stated otherwise. Polymorph doesn't state that your hit points change; ergo they don't. The fact that it's specifically called out suggests that it's an exception to the general rule of "changing your ability scores means changes to things they modify."

[eggynack]

Player's Handbook 2 puts it in the Polymorph subschool, though, which states that you retain your own hit points unless stated otherwise.
As I recall, polymorph is not in the polymorph subschool.

[Venger]

As I recall, polymorph is not in the polymorph subschool.

they are, but since specific trump general, their own spell text supersedes the polymorph subschool:


For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph
spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter
self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph
subschool. However, note that the spells’ existing rules text
takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self, for instance,
does not change the target’s ability scores (unlike normal for
spells of the polymorph subschool).

[Story]

All of this, but do it twice because it's all shared with your familiar. There aren't many other spells that at level 10 will give you 20 attacks due to being two hydras while your other spells make it difficult to hit either of you.

How are you staying within 5 feet of your familiar when you're both Huge?


Polymorph indeed behaves like Alter Self, except where stated differently. A key difference of Polymorph is that unlike Alter Self it updates your CON (and therefore HP). The specific updated text in the Polymorph spell itself, should override the more distant general behavior of Alter Self that it inherits from.


But in the Alter Self description, retaining ability scores and HP are stated separately. I think Polymorph overrides the first but not the second.

[Venger]

How are you staying within 5 feet of your familiar when you're both Huge?

you... just stand adjacent to him like normal? you don't take up all the squares you threaten. why wouldn't you be able to?

[eggynack]

Probably a lot easier than usual, actually. Bigger you are, the more room there is within five feet of you to move around.

[Crake]

How are you staying within 5 feet of your familiar when you're both Huge?

Have both you and your familiar carry acorns of far travel of a tree who's canopy is equal to or less than a 5" radius. This means you are both always considered to be under the canopy, and are thus always considered to be within 5" of eachother.

Incoming lactose intolerant fire!

[Story]

Wow, I never thought of that. I always assumed the acorns were a Druid or Hathran thing.

[defiantdan]

isn't the new rules for polymorphing on the archived website of wotc? I recall those errata specifically saying you don't get more hp from the increased con. though your Fort save is increased. I can't check the site right now as I am at work. They also posted errata's to grappling and a few others.

[Cruiser1]

Polymorph indeed behaves like Alter Self, except where stated differently. A key difference of Polymorph is that unlike Alter Self it updates your CON (and therefore HP). The specific updated text in the Polymorph spell itself, should override the more distant general behavior of Alter Self that it inherits from.

But in the Alter Self description, retaining ability scores and HP are stated separately. I think Polymorph overrides the first but not the second.
WotC articles say that CON changes from Polymorph change your HP: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a. "Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score."

However, I agree the actual wording is ambiguous (like in so many other areas) and that a case can be made either way. An article (like the FAQ) isn't RAW, however it does at least indicate RAI when attempting to resolve ambiguous wording. One reason to choose to make Polymorph not update HP is that it's a way to slightly reduce the power of Wizards, so they can't Polymorph into something big and nasty and easily get more HP than the party Fighter.

[Duke of Urrel]

One reason to choose to make Polymorph not update HP is that it's a way to slightly reduce the power of Wizards, so they can't Polymorph into something big and nasty and easily get more HP than the party Fighter.

I agree with this reasoning. Recently, I tried to apply the rule recommended by Skip Williams in the "Rules of the Game" series and let Constitution changes affect a polymorphed creature's Hit Points. Not only does this greatly benefit squishy creatures that are polymorphed into mighty ones, it also greatly harms mighty creatures that are polymorphed into squishy ones. For example, if you polymorph a wounded barbarian with a high Constitution score into a toad, she may easily lose more Hit-Points than she heals. She may even die, so that the effect of the Baleful Polymorph spell may be to turn her instantly into a dead toad.

I don't like this effect at all, so I have more recently decided to accept the alternate interpretation, namely that changes in a polymorphed creature's Constitution, either up or down, don't add or subtract Hit Points.

[Cruiser1]

the effect of the Baleful Polymorph spell may be to turn her instantly into a dead toad.
In 3.5 the Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) spell specifically says, "The target retains its own hit points." That's unlike the normal Polymorph spell, which can only be cast on a willing target. In other words, WotC saw this issue too, and already prevents it for offensive magic. :smallsmile:

[Crake]

WotC articles say that CON changes from Polymorph change your HP: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a. "Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score."

However, I agree the actual wording is ambiguous (like in so many other areas) and that a case can be made either way. An article (like the FAQ) isn't RAW, however it does at least indicate RAI when attempting to resolve ambiguous wording. One reason to choose to make Polymorph not update HP is that it's a way to slightly reduce the power of Wizards, so they can't Polymorph into something big and nasty and easily get more HP than the party Fighter.

That article came out long before the whole polymorph/wildshape errata/update thing, so I'd say it's largely irrelevant for this argument. Back then polymorph's con change modified your hp, but it no longer does.

[Duke of Urrel]

In 3.5 the Baleful Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm) spell specifically says, "The target retains its own hit points." That's unlike the normal Polymorph spell, which can only be cast on a willing target. In other words, WotC saw this issue too, and already prevents it for offensive magic. :smallsmile:


That article came out long before the whole polymorph/wildshape errata/update thing, so I'd say it's largely irrelevant for this argument. Back then polymorph's con change modified your hp, but it no longer does.

You two have just helped me see something that I never saw before.

I recently tried to make sense of all the Polymorph spells and the Polymorph Subschool rules, but I made the mistake of interpreting them together with the "Rules of the Game" articles as if these two sets of rules both emerged at the same time and referred to each other. I assumed that the general rule of the Polymorph Subschool, namely "The subject retains its own hit points," was somehow negated by a specific exception, stated in the "Rules of the Game," that a change in the subject's Constitution score could change its Hit Points in spite of the general rule. According to this interpretation, any Polymorph spell that changed the subject's Constitution, including the Baleful Polymorph spell, would also change its Hit Points.

I never considered that the Polymorph Subschool rules – written in 2006, I believe – might have changed the general rule from what it had been in 2004, when Skip Williams stated, in the article "Polymorphing (Part Three)," that with the Polymorph spell, "the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score." Apparently, Williams's rule was once new, but the Polymorph Subschool rule is newer.

So now it seems that there was a brief time, circa 2003 to 2005, when the general rule was that Hit Points were changed by polymorphing unless a specific rule stated otherwise. Apparently, this was an early 3.5 rule. The Polymorph Subschool actually eliminated it by creating a new general rule.

So at least one rule of the Polymorph Subschool really did change something, after all! It changed the default, from "changes in Constitution generally change Hit Points unless a specific rule states otherwise" to "spells of the Polymorph Subschool generally don't affect Hit Points unless a specific rule states otherwise."

I don't know whether others will agree with my chronology, but for what it's worth, I thank you both for enabling me to reconstruct it like this. It makes sense to me, anyway.

[Venger]

You two have just helped me see something that I never saw before.

I recently tried to make sense of all the Polymorph spells and the Polymorph Subschool rules, but I made the mistake of interpreting them together with the "Rules of the Game" articles as if these two sets of rules both emerged at the same time and referred to each other. I assumed that the general rule of the Polymorph Subschool, namely "The subject retains its own hit points," was somehow negated by a specific exception, stated in the "Rules of the Game," that a change in the subject's Constitution score could change its Hit Points in spite of the general rule. According to this interpretation, any Polymorph spell that changed the subject's Constitution, including the Baleful Polymorph spell, would also change its Hit Points.

I never considered that the Polymorph Subschool rules – written in 2006, I believe – might have changed the general rule from what it had been in 2004, when Skip Williams stated, in the article "Polymorphing (Part Three)," that with the Polymorph spell, "the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score." Apparently, Williams's rule was once new, but the Polymorph Subschool rule is newer.

So now it seems that there was a brief time, circa 2003 to 2005, when the general rule was that Hit Points were changed by polymorphing unless a specific rule stated otherwise. Apparently, this was an early 3.5 rule. The Polymorph Subschool actually eliminated it by creating a new general rule.

So at least one rule of the Polymorph Subschool really did change something, after all! It changed the default, from "changes in Constitution generally change Hit Points unless a specific rule states otherwise" to "spells of the Polymorph Subschool generally don't affect Hit Points unless a specific rule states otherwise."

I don't know whether others will agree with my chronology, but for what it's worth, I thank you both for enabling me to reconstruct it like this. It makes sense to me, anyway.

your chronology is accurate and I'm glad you got something out of the discourse.

it's very important to mention that the "rules of the game" series, despite the name, is not RAW. it misunderstands some very fundamental aspects of the game and contradicts even basic rules all the time (e.g. the grappling series) so do not use it as a basis for how to adjudicate things, skip doesn't understand the rules of this game.

[Crake]

your chronology is accurate and I'm glad you got something out of the discourse.

it's very important to mention that the "rules of the game" series, despite the name, is not RAW. it misunderstands some very fundamental aspects of the game and contradicts even basic rules all the time (e.g. the grappling series) so do not use it as a basis for how to adjudicate things, skip doesn't understand the rules of this game.

Wasn't skip one of the people who wrote the player's handbook? As for the grapple rules, I still dont, to this very day, understand how they work with natural attacks, iterative attacks, people who have both, rakes, constricts. None of that. I don't get it.

[Gnaeus]

Wasn't skip one of the people who wrote the player's handbook?

A proud tradition of ignorance of his own rules.

Thankfully, when they stopped supporting 3.5, Paizo picked up this torch and ran with it, so that the old school players could still feel comfortable with devs who often have no idea what they are talking about.

[elonin]

That's funny. I'm used to playing computer games in which the devs don't know how their games play, but thought it was different on table top games.

[eggynack]

That's funny. I'm used to playing computer games in which the devs don't know how their games play, but thought it was different on table top games.
Dunno why you'd expect it to be. At least with computer games, if you have a rule different than you'd intended, it'll show up in that different fashion if/when you play test it. In a table top game, you can go a whole play test using the rule in the way it showed up in your head, and then when the game ships, suddenly it turns out that monks lack unarmed strike proficiency and rainbow servant has two separate magical progressions listed. In a computer game, devs have the capacity to not know how their games play, and that extends very far in D&D, where fighters were expected to be, y'know, good at fighting, and druids were expected to rarely really use their class features. However, it is rather atypical for computer game devs to not know how their games work, or at least it's a relatively easy problem to fix, and I think that's somewhat less atypical for tabletop games.

[Venger]

Wasn't skip one of the people who wrote the player's handbook? As for the grapple rules, I still dont, to this very day, understand how they work with natural attacks, iterative attacks, people who have both, rakes, constricts. None of that. I don't get it.

I fail to see how that's relevant. well see, the difference is, you didn't write a wrongheaded five-part series explaining how you think the grapple rules work and tell people it was an explanation of actual rules.

it's really not that difficult: in a grapple, you can use each of your iteratives to perform a grapple action (including an atk with a natural weapon) you can attack up to once with each of your natural attacks up to a functional limit of your BA. if you have bite/claw/claw, but a BA of only 6, you can use any 2 of your natural attacks. you run out before you hit your third. rakes can give you 2 extra attacks you can only use while grappled, and you don't take a -4 with them, but you need to begin your turn grappling an enemy, and constrict can sometimes deal better damage than your secondary natural attack, so you may want to use it instead.

that's it.

[Crake]

I fail to see how that's relevant. well see, the difference is, you didn't write a wrongheaded five-part series explaining how you think the grapple rules work and tell people it was an explanation of actual rules.

it's really not that difficult: in a grapple, you can use each of your iteratives to perform a grapple action (including an atk with a natural weapon) you can attack up to once with each of your natural attacks up to a functional limit of your BA. if you have bite/claw/claw, but a BA of only 6, you can use any 2 of your natural attacks. you run out before you hit your third. rakes can give you 2 extra attacks you can only use while grappled, and you don't take a -4 with them, but you need to begin your turn grappling an enemy, and constrict can sometimes deal better damage than your secondary natural attack, so you may want to use it instead.

that's it.

Are all the natural attacks done at their normal attack bonus (-4 for being grappled)? Or do they take penalties for iteratives? For example, you have 2 primary claw attacks, do they each hit at your normal bonus -4? Or is the first one at -4 and the second at -9?

As for constrict, I've seen it read that ANY successful grapple check results in constrict damage, and others say that only a grapple check made to deal damage adds constrict?

The rake stuff makes sense though, which is good.

[Venger]

Are all the natural attacks done at their normal attack bonus (-4 for being grappled)? Or do they take penalties for iteratives? For example, you have 2 primary claw attacks, do they each hit at your normal bonus -4? Or is the first one at -4 and the second at -9?

As for constrict, I've seen it read that ANY successful grapple check results in constrict damage, and others say that only a grapple check made to deal damage adds constrict?

The rake stuff makes sense though, which is good.

yes, they take penalties for iteratives. first one would be at normal bonus -4, second would be at normal bonus -9, etc. rakes do not take a -4 penalty, since they can only be used in a grapple.

attacking with natural attacks in a grapple is different from attacking with natural attacks outside of a grapple. you don't go once with your primary then once with your secondaries each.

you are actually capped at your BA, and can only use each atk once.

it is any successful grapple check, which is why it's able to activate on the turn you grapple an opponent with imp grab.

you don't need to use the "grapple check to deal damage" option to activate constrict (meaning it's not the only way) but once you nab your enemy, it's probably gonna be the easiest way to activate it and means you don't need to roll attack if your grapple's better than your to-hit, or you have a low BA.

[Crake]

it is any successful grapple check, which is why it's able to activate on the turn you grapple an opponent with imp grab.

you don't need to use the "grapple check to deal damage" option to activate constrict (meaning it's not the only way) but once you nab your enemy, it's probably gonna be the easiest way to activate it and means you don't need to roll attack if your grapple's better than your to-hit, or you have a low BA.

So that also includes things like checks to pin and move an enemy?

[Venger]

So that also includes things like checks to pin and move an enemy?

that's correct. as an extra treat, it actually kind of makes sense. when a snake's pinning you, he's gonna crush you a little extra, same as when he drags you around the map.

[Crake]

that's correct. as an extra treat, it actually kind of makes sense. when a snake's pinning you, he's gonna crush you a little extra, same as when he drags you around the map.

Sweet, at least I had constrict done properly :smalltongue: