Fighter, Familiars, Variant Multiclassing, EXTRAVAGANZA! (Build help/advice)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

As I mentioned in the VMC for Fun/Profit thread, I have been toying around with an idea for a fighter that utilizes the Mutation Warrior archetype. I now know I want to add on the Eldritch Guardian archetype, I want him to be able to focus on a few skills (So human, decent Int, either favored class bonus to skill points or Fast Learner to end up with 4/5 ranks per level), and to top it off, I want him to be a 2-hander that goes after the Deadly Stroke feat. Because that is a feat I didn't realize exists and now I want it. Because Con Bleed. And the combat trick for it makes it usable in a flank.

Anyway, I was toying with the idea for the familiar to take the Sage familiar archetype. As for why, I like the idea of the badass fighter relying on the talking animal to know all his stuff... also, lets the character focus on other skills and completely neglect knowledges. Craft (Alchemy), Perception, UMD, Intimidate, maybe some Spellcraft. On the downside, what's the use of sharing feats with the familiar if it's just going to be a knowledge monkey?

I had been looking around the various VMCs for this, because fighter trading away feats for class features is gravy. I was initially considering alchemist, and just sucking up the redundant mutagen, but then I realized that the Wizard VMC is really really saucy. 3rd level: Familiar. Since one is gained through class and the other familiar is gained through VMC, I don't see why he wouldn't get two. This frees up the fighter!familiar to be a Mauler, and the Wizard!Familiar to be a Sage. And it fits thematically, as well! Plus, the idea of the stupid mauler and smart sage familiar both with the fighter is one I find to be funny. Later on, he could get some other very nice things. Taking the Foresight arcane school lets him act in the surprise round, the arcane discovery at 15th level can be something like the True Name, so extra fun there, and even the cantrip could be something like Detect Magic, which would be useful if he invested in spellcraft. The downside to this? Well... It's a lot of feats; seven, counting the two lost from Eldritch Guardian. I have a feeling by the end everything would pan out, but early on it would certainly be a pain. He wouldn't get an extra feat to play around with until 4th level; sure, he gets some pretty cool stuff for it, but it kinda makes me consider the build.

So, any input?

[squiggit]

3rd level: Familiar. Since one is gained through class and the other familiar is gained through VMC, I don't see why he wouldn't get two.
The familiar (and animal companion) rules say that getting a familiar (or animal companion) from two sources just causes them to stack for level based effects.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

See, there isn't actually any text I can find that says that. Previously, the only way to get multiple familiar abilities was to, with a standard familiar-granting class, get ahold of the Arcane Bloodline's arcana. That explicitly stated they stacked for purposes of familiar level.

[Psyren]

As far as I can tell, VMC familiar + class/archetype familiar means you would get two. The design team "discourages" this, but there is no hard prohibition (at least not yet.) And personally I don't see an issue with trading 5 feats for a familiar. (Well you get a couple of extra things like cantrips and a discovery, but regardless, that is still the main thing.)

[Yanisa]

See, there isn't actually any text I can find that says that. Previously, the only way to get multiple familiar abilities was to, with a standard familiar-granting class, get ahold of the Arcane Bloodline's arcana. That explicitly stated they stacked for purposes of familiar level.

Familiars (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar)

Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
Or page 82 of the core rulebook.

VMC is essence is just another multiclass. Also there are no rules for what happens when your combined level is higher then your current level, which happens easily with VMC.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I approach the VMCs by looking at it for a ability-for-feat basis, like a particularly involved feat tree. And I would gladly give that up. My hesitation stemmed from cutting out a third of the fighter's feats for this. Deadly Stroke and its prerequisites are another five on top of that. If I'm going to capitalize on the bleed damage, something like Bloody Assault might be worth looking into, which requires Power Attack. Furious Focus is another feat that comes up. On top of that, there's fun flavorful stuff like Improved Unarmed Strike->Deflect Arrows, which fits into my whole 'kinda-sorta inspired by witchers' thing. But if I want to do that, the best solution is to two-hand with a one-handed weapon so I can still make attacks of opportunity... basically, I want all the feats, but I can't have all the feats.


Familiars (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar)

Or page 82 of the core rulebook.

VMC is essence is just another multiclass. Also there are no rules for what happens when your combined level is higher then your current level, which happens easily with VMC.

Thing is Psyren is right. In essence and RAW are different things. So in this case it would depend on the GM in question. I'm willing to bet dollars to cents I could talk the GM into two familiars, since its not contradicted by the rules, and I think the concept is kinda fun.

[grarrrg]

Also there are no rules for what happens when your combined level is higher then your current level, which happens easily with VMC.

Familiar Level higher than character level isn't much of an issue.
All you get are the Nat Armor, INT, and "special" abilities, and the bonuses stop being listed at level 20, so it doesn't matter if you have an 'effective wizard level' of 40, because there are no bonuses past 20 anyway.

(pre-emptive edit) Actually no. I take that back. Your Familiar will have truly useful Spell Resistance "spell resistance equal to the master's level + 5."

Most everything else keys directly off of the PC's stats and not level. So if you have 40 HP, your Familiar will have 20HP, regardless of "Wizard level".

[Molosse]

VMC is essence is just another multiclass. Also there are no rules for what happens when your combined level is higher then your current level, which happens easily with VMC.

Sadly, as has been discussed throughout the Profit/Fluff thread, VMC aren't really a multiclass. A Fighter (VMC Bard) cannot for example benefit from the Banner of Ancient Kings. Nor would a Bard (VMC Fighter) be allowed access to Fighter only Feats.

Therefore it's more like Xeno is simply trading in his level 3 feat for an additional Familiar class ability.

[Yanisa]

Thing is Psyren is right. In essence and RAW are different things. So in this case it would depend on the GM in question. I'm willing to bet dollars to cents I could talk the GM into two familiars, since its not contradicted by the rules, and I think the concept is kinda fun.

I both agree and disagree at the same time. In essence or not, you get the familiar class ability as described in the core rulebook, there are no exception because you get it trough VMC. At the other side that same familiar ability never states you loose your second familiar, just that levels stack. So you can easily make a case for getting two familiars (with double the levels, not that that changes a lot, like grarrrg pointed out.).

And to be fair, this case is far more like gestalt then multi-classing, and pathfinder doesn't have any gestalt rules...

[Ninjaxenomorph]

So, let's step away from the two familiars thing, focus more on the actual build/feats. With the Fighter familiar, the one I know for certain this guy has, lets assume its a Mauler hawk. Fly speed and a pair of natural attacks. One problem I find is that a lot of the feats I would be taking are not usable on the familiar. Like, the fighter takes all the weapon focus stuff with a greatsword; excepting getting a monkey or something (which... no thanks), those are dead feats for the familiar. Although Deflect Arrows on a flying familiar is kind of awesome if they aren't fighting spellcasters.

[Yanisa]

I always liked the idea of adding Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) to the build. Because you and your familiar share combat feats anything from Martial Master is also added to you buddy. (And imagine level 20, all the feats)

An Natural Attack build on your fighter also helps, get the Feral Mutagen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/feral-mutagen) for 2 claws and a bite.

Or as an alternative to monkey's you can also drop your mauler archetype and get an improved familiar. A Small earth elemental (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-earth/small-earth-elemental) seems a good pick here, they are proficient with weapons, have hands and get good strength.

Edit: There are also Teamwork Combat feats... but it's hard to find a good teamwork feat. Something like Outflank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/outflank-combat-teamwork) can be nice.

[avr]

Rather than something requiring hands you could aim for a combat maneuver, or power attack/cornugon smash/hurtful, or combat reflexes/bodyguard or a style feat chain or some teamwork feats (all of which are combat feats also).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I was thinking about that... and the only problem is that the natural attacks can only come from the mutagen, which itself is only 10 minutes per level. And he'd have to be 7th level to actually get the Feral Mutagen discovery. As for Martial Master, I was thinking about it... and its actually not such a bad idea. All the archetypes would be replacing almost every feature fighters have... but Armor Training is really my favorite class feature fighters have, so giving it up isn't really so bad. Would combine very nicely with combat tricks, especially with the combat familiar's stamina pool...