Tauric Thri-Kreen Scorpion

[njero]

Right, this is my first original thread so please bare with me.

I'm working on a tauric build for a Thri-Kreen. I'm not into optimization so much as sheer badassery.

It took me a while to decide between several base creatures, balancing their HD and abilities took some thought. Because I understand the Thri-Kreen's jump bonus to carry over to the tauric form (and even if that wasn't how I read the RAW I find it reasonable) I seriously considered using a base creature with pounce and rake. After a while I narrowed it down to either monstrous scorpion or phase spider, and settled on the scorpion in the end. While it's still an arachnid, it fits the insectoid nature of the Thri-kreen better.

Here's the link to my build so far: Thripion (http://www.thetangledweb.net/profiler/view.php?id=9787)

I'm wondering two things:

Does anyone see any errors in the way I put this sucker together?
Also, does anyone have any suggestions. Things like classes to further the build, tactics that it would excel at, better distribution of my point buy...

One of my favourite things about D&D is the character building and development. I like starting with strange races and then seeing how that base mixes with classes, items, and roleplaying. :smallamused:

[Zincorium]

1. Feral, same place you found tauric. You have lots of racial HD, and feral makes them so much better. That, and since you already have a LA of 4 (psionic thri-keen +2 for tauric), it won't hurt that badly. The fast healing and increased hd size alone will make up for it. Also, spend a feat and you've got 4 claws doing 2d6. Not shabby.

2. Kensai or Thayan gladiator (forgotten realms) will do a lot to bring your natural weapons up to speed with a normal melee character by adding in enhancements.

3. You've got 7 racial hit die and a +4 or +5 (with my suggestion of feral) LA, you're already an ECL 11 character without anything else added in. Personally, I'd look for a prestige class to go into straight away without further class levels if you're taking one at all, you already won't get the capping ability of any 10 level Prc until epic.

[njero]

Lord Silvanos responded in the RAW thread that the claw and bite damage of the Thri-Kreen portion should be increased due to size. I'm curious if I missed something in the tauric description, or if this is by deduction. Could anyone explain further?

Also, I wrote only +2 LA on the character sheet, thinking that all I was supposed to do was take the base humanoid's LA. There is no mention of LA under the heading Creating a Tauric Creature, though I see that in the example stat block it says "+2 (apply this to the level adjustment of the base humanoid)." This makes little sense to me, as an example stat block should include the final information, not adjustments.

I think I have more to ask, but I'm running late.

(oh, I just noticed the Hobgoblin-Griffin example has reach. I'll have to add that later)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Lord Silvanos responded in the RAW thread that the claw and bite damage of the Thri-Kreen portion should be increased due to size. I'm curious if I missed something in the tauric description, or if this is by deduction. Could anyone explain further?

I may have been a bit hasty. I did it by deduction, but then decided to actually have a look at Savage Species and will have to reverse my answer.

From the example provided by Savage Species and the information in the template description it looks like a Tauric creature's torso retains the medium size with respect to weapons it can wield and any natural weapons it might have.


Also, I wrote only +2 LA on the character sheet, thinking that all I was supposed to do was take the base humanoid's LA. There is no mention of LA under the heading Creating a Tauric Creature, though I see that in the example stat block it says "+2 (apply this to the level adjustment of the base humanoid)." This makes little sense to me, as an example stat block should include the final information, not adjustments.
You are absolutely correct.
That piece of information should have been under creating a Tauric creature instead.


I think I have more to ask, but I'm running late.

(oh, I just noticed the Hobgoblin-Griffin example has reach. I'll have to add that later)
It does not have reach. (Well, it has 5 foot reach :smalltongue:)

It gets a little messy when mixing different sizes as can also be seen from the weapon size above.

And they call me an aberration. *roll eyes*

[PinkysBrain]

1. Feral, same place you found tauric.
Actually Tauric was officially updated to 3.5 in the MM2 update ... so not necessarily.

Njero, the note on level adjustment is on the LA line of the sample creature. Not that it matters, the update I mentioned has the most recent rules for tauric creatures :

Tauric Creature:Monstrous Humanoid; 10 ft./5 ft.; Intimidate +5, Jump +13,
Listen +8, Move Silently +5, Spot +7; Alertness, Great Fortitude, Iron Will; LA Base humanoid +3; Sample creature: Iron Will feat increases Will save to +4. See Monster Manual glossary for revised definition of rake.The updated MM2 version is the latest version ... and it doesn't allow monstrous humanoids as base creatures at all, so no Thri-Kreens. Ignoring that, the minimum LA you could get is LA +4 with the non psionic Thri-Kreen from the MM2 which has a lower LA than the XPH one.

Thri-Kreen: Monstrous Humanoid; 5 ft./5 ft.; Balance +4, Climb +3, Hide +4*, Jump +35, Listen +3, Spot +3; Deflect Arrows , Weapon Focus (gythka); LA +1 or +3; Change Intelligence to 10

[AtomicKitKat]

You use weapons and armour(more expensive, for unusual shape, as well as size) as a creature of the modified size, but you are (Long), rather than (Tall), to use 3.0 terminology. Basically this means you have the reach of a creature one size category smaller than your final size(or, to simplify it, you have the reach of the Humanoid portion).

[njero]

The updated MM2 version is the latest version ... and it doesn't allow monstrous humanoids as base creatures at all, so no Thri-Kreens.
Yeah, I'm going to ignore that change. I was enjoying this build too much to ditch it so quickly.


Ignoring that, the minimum LA you could get is LA +4 with the non psionic Thri-Kreen from the MM2 which has a lower LA than the XPH one.
Non-psionic Thri-Kreen from MM2 have an LA of +3 (p. 196) while the Thri-Kreen PC entry on p. 15 of the XPH lists an LA of +2 (as does the monster entry on p. 216). I checked the appropriate errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a) for changes and couldn't find any.

Thri-Kreen: LA +2
Monstrous Scorpion: - (nor would it count as "it otherwise uses all the base creature's attributes and special abilities except as noted below...")
Tauric Template (MM2): -

Total LA: +2

---

edit: Hold on a minute.

Savage Species: February, 2003
Monster Manual 2: September, 2002

[AtomicKitKat]

Yeah. Savage Species Booped it up when they forgot to include the LA at the end of the template crunch.

[Zincorium]

Yeah. Savage Species Booped it up when they forgot to include the LA at the end of the template crunch.

Yeah, but it is in the description, although an odd place, it is in the master table, and it holds true for the centaur which is the basis of it all. Having it in the template description would have simply made it easier to find.

Pinky's brain, I was not aware that they had the tauric creature template in the MM2 update, I'll check that out, but I had assumed that they were using savage species.

[njero]

Yes, but neither the MM2 nor SS notes an LA in the crunch (MM2 doesn't list it int the example text either), neither is there any errata stating the template should have a level adjustment.

Frankly, unless wizards has released some other material that indicates the template should receive an LA then I'm inclined to thing that the SS example text is where the error lies.

edit: Whoop, seriously ninjaed as I was reading through the main FAQ.

I wasn't aware of the table on SS p. 213. I'm guessing that's the "master table" you referred to Zincorium. I guess I'll have to suck it up and add that extra +2 to the character sheet.

Phooey.

[PinkysBrain]

Non-psionic Thri-Kreen from MM2 have an LA of +3 (p. 196)They have an ECL of 3. They didn't do LA in those days (it's only listed in the update). The XPH Thri-Kreen has an ECL of 4.

while the Thri-Kreen PC entry on p. 15 of the XPH lists an LA of +2 (as does the monster entry on p. 216). I checked the appropriate errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a) for changes and couldn't find any.You have to look for the 3.5 update for MM2.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a


Savage Species: February, 2003
Monster Manual 2: September, 2002MM2's 3.5 update came out after SS.

PS. update.

PPS. you seem to misunderstand what ECL means. ECL = racial HD + LA.

[njero]

PPS. you seem to misunderstand what ECL means. ECL = racial HD + LA.

You're the first person to bring ECL into this conversation, and I'm perfectly well aware what it means.

The XPH Thri-Kreen PC (starting on page 14) begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, and an LA of +2. You are correct that this gives a total ECL of 4. I however, have not been talking about ECL until now. :smallwink:


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a
MM2's 3.5 update came out after SS.
Thanks for the link. I thought I remembered some PDF "update" but couldn't find it with my d20 files. Now I have it again.

Interesting how even in the update they didn't fix the basic problem of listing the LA in the wrong section. If the intent was to say that the tauric template adds +3 to the base humanoid's LA, then the example block (for a hobgoblin-griffin) should have simply stated LA +4.

In any case, it to appends an LA equal to base humanoid +3 to the example creature block, and I'll abide by that for now (Though I wonder at the jump from +2 in SS to +3 in the MM2 update). That would give a tauric Thri-Kreen Scorpion an LA of +5.

2 HD (Thri-Kreen)
+2 LA (Thri-Kreen)
5 HD (large monstrous scorpion)
+3 LA (tauric template)

A whopping total ECL of 12. Jeepers. The cool factor is being seriously mitigated here.

Here's another question. The thri-kreen and the scorpion entries both list the claw attack as being the primary natural attack. The tauric template states that "The absence of the base creature's head always results in the loss of the base creature's bite attack. If the creature loses its primary attack in this fashion, all its remaining natural attacks are still secondary." (SS, p. 133) This seems to indicate that it is possible to retain primary attacks from the base creature (as long as the body part responsible is not removed).

Since the template does not state that the base humanoid loses its primary natural attack, does this then mean that both the thri-kreen and scorpion claws remain primary? Thus in a full attack action could the "thripion" attack with a total of 6 claw attacks (two at 1d6+STR and four at 1d4+STR) at full BAB followed by the bite and tail attacks at -5?

[AtomicKitKat]

I would stick with +2 LA, personally. Puts it in line with the Centaur, and generally, unless you pick some really crazy-strong quadruped(that has very few HD), the stats just aren't worth +2 on their own.

[PinkysBrain]

You're the first person to bring ECL into this conversation, and I'm perfectly well aware what it means.
You said the non psionic Thri-Kreen has an LA of +3 ... when the MM2 says it has an ECL of +3 and 2 racial HD. Even without the MM2 update it's LA was clear, and it wasn't +3. So as I said, you seemed to misunderstand ECL :)

[njero]

You said the non psionic Thri-Kreen has an LA of +3 ... when the MM2 says it has an ECL of +3 and 2 racial HD. Even without the MM2 update it's LA was clear, and it wasn't +3. So as I said, you seemed to misunderstand ECL :)

Touché. That teaches me to pull out a book only to get a page number. :smallredface:

In any case, I may be willing to give up psionics to reduce the LA as you originally suggested. I really don't think this build needs greater concealing amorpha. One problem there is that there is an ability score difference above and beyond the psionics option between the MM2u and the XPH versions. It still seems reasonable to me to drop one point of LA in exchange for losing the psionics, but we're stepping even further away from RAW at that point--as I would be if I dropped the LA for tauric back down to +2. I am after all, still using a monstrous humanoid.

Interesting. I'm going to take a closer look at the centaur later, to see how close it is to a human-horse tauric creature. I see already that it wields large weapons (2d6 longsword).

So what do people think about these:

Lower tuaric LA to +2
Allow monstrous humanoid
Reduce XPH thri-kreen to LA +1 by removing psionics.

[AtomicKitKat]

Agree on all 3.