A conundrum of unknown optimization level

[Kazyan]

I always have trouble connecting with the sentiments towards wizards automatically winning every combat forever, and how melee somehow still doesn't have enough nice things. I think I've figured out why, at least at my table: saves and damage don't really matter against an acceptably optimized melee character, but they do to an acceptably optimized caster, and casters take longer to remove threats.

We've tried battlefield control and debuffs and such for our casters; usually that's a waste of an action because the monster will just make the relevant saving throw or walk/fly around the BFC with the high move speeds that monsters often have, and if that doesn't work, they'll use a ranged attack. Then the caster draws attention and starts panicking over the damage they're now eating from said monster.

In contrast, a Warblade can absorb copious amounts of damage and is functionally immune to anything that requires a saving throw. Then they just walk up to the monster after it's done with its turn and kill it. If it doesn't happen this turn because of the maneuver that does +Yes damage, it will shortly thereafter.

Even in my game that reached low epic, the casters finally started pulling ahead mostly because they could duplicate the functionality of a melee character, be it by summoning, blasting while standing next to the healbot, or piloting a ludicrously empowered flesh golem. I've played in, like, a dozen other games, and none of them have resulted in dominant casters.

What's going on here? Is my group just extraordinarily inept at the game or something, despite knowing how to handle monsters at CR+3 consistently?

[Venger]

is there a large experience (time spent gaming, not xp points for the characters) discrepancy between the martial players and the casters?

do your casters make low-op decisions? (focusing on damage spells and other suboptimal choices)

do the casters play teamwork-focused characters like in treantmonk's wizard guide, focusing on helping martial characters shine rather than outdoing them?

are your casters players just not very familiar with all the options at their disposal?

if none of those is the answer, then it's probably this:

when it's caster versus martial, then obviously the caster wins every time except at very low levels, I don't need to tell you that.

in an actual game, when the martial and the caster are on the same team fighting against monsters, they won't really be competing with each other or trying to make one another look bad since the players' goal is to have fun together and beat the monsters, not to make sure their guy shines the most in combat since we all take an equal share of xp in 3.x.

[With a box]

I think this is because you have different standard for "acceptable optimization"
I'm sure your warblade Player seaching through books mote then your wizard.

[Crake]

Having played control wizards with various different DMs, I've noticed that with certain DMs enemies will just happen to make their saves for spells more often. I'm sure it's got nothing to do with the DM in question though.

If the DM is just straight up shutting down the wizard behind the scenes, yeah, of course he's going to look like an incompetent joke. But when played properly, targetting the enemies' weak saves, or just straight up using no-save stuff, then yeah, the wizard can single handedly win encounters. Even more so if they use divinations to scout enemies out beforehand and be able to tailor their spells accordingly. Either that or just buff up the rest of the party.

If the wizard is happening to come out poorly at your table, it's a matter of circumstance, not the class being poor.

Edit: Also why are your wizards just now being able to compete with melees? What were they doing at level 7 when polymorph opened up, and bite of the werebear? An incantatrix with persisted polymoprh into say, a grey render, and a persisted bite of the werebear would be out meleeing your melee much earlier than epic levels.

[Bronk]

I've seen this happen, and traced the problem to either:

A: Targeting the wrong save. It's better to try to hit a big tough monster with a spell that requires a will/ref save instead of a fort save, for example, or dexterity damage for dragons... you have to hit their weaknesses, not their strengths. Use your knowledge skills if you have to.

B: Unbeknownst to you, your DM is doing his saving throws incorrectly. I've played for a DM running 3.5 who had just came off of a 4th edition kick, and was adding 10 to all of the saving throws, then having everything be a straight roll off. It was infuriating until we figured it out.

[Necroticplague]

I always have trouble connecting with the sentiments towards wizards automatically winning every combat forever, and how melee somehow still doesn't have enough nice things. I think I've figured out why, at least at my table: saves and damage don't really matter against an acceptably optimized melee character, but they do to an acceptably optimized caster, and casters take longer to remove threats. Saves may not really matter against a melee character, but that's actually a weakness. Melee can't target weak saves, they have to target AC (and various things that get in the way, like miss chance, incorporeal, ethereal, concealment, cover, ect.)


We've tried battlefield control and debuffs and such for our casters; usually that's a waste of an action because the monster will just make the relevant saving throw or walk/fly around the BFC with the high move speeds that monsters often have, and if that doesn't work, they'll use a ranged attack. Then the caster draws attention and starts panicking over the damage they're now eating from said monster.
Your casters are using BFC that allows save and/or putting it in between the enemy and them. They should be dropping no-save BFC right on top of the enemy. For examples, see Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Stone Shape, Wall of Stone (and most walls for that matter).


In contrast, a Warblade can absorb copious amounts of damage and is functionally immune to anything that requires a saving throw. Then they just walk up to the monster after it's done with its turn and kill it. If it doesn't happen this turn because of the maneuver that does +Yes damage, it will shortly thereafter.And at most levels, I've found ability to absorb any damage is irrelevant, because damage rapidly outpaces all non-perfect defences.



Even in my game that reached low epic, the casters finally started pulling ahead mostly because they could duplicate the functionality of a melee character, be it by summoning, blasting while standing next to the healbot, or piloting a ludicrously empowered flesh golem. I've played in, like, a dozen other games, and none of them have resulted in dominant casters.

What's going on here? Is my group just extraordinarily inept at the game or something, despite knowing how to handle monsters at CR+3 consistently?

What they heck were they doing with their buff spells? Polymorph and Co. should have had them hitting this point quite a while ago.

Anyway, you appear to merely being playing at a lower optimization level than often assumed on this board, as displayed by the fact that you have a healbot (while I've found at higher op level, it's best to kill everything ASAP, then heal between battle if needed.Slightly higher op levels don't need any healing, because anything that takes damage is dead.). So you're comparing a class with a higher floor to a class with a lower floor. The strength of the warblade is that it's hard to screw up if you don't optimize, the weakness of most casters is how easy they are to screw up if you don't optimize.

Side note, handling high CR monsters could equally be an indication the monsters weren't being played to their strength as is does how powerful the party is (like a common issue I've seen of 'melee brute ignoring its potent SLAs')

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

To go along with both Crake and the OP, I literally did play an Incantatrix with a decently optimized warblade in the party. At first I was thinking of going control and using persistomancy sparingly and mostly for defense, but the enemies tended to be optimized NPCs or over-CR'd monsters whose saving throws were huge and whose movement capabilities were strong. At this level of optimization, classic TLN wizards don't function well. Hence the need for mailmen, summoners, and buffers.

So... I went melee, persisting a bunch of stuff, and wrecked everything, leaving the warblade in the dust. Until I got hard countered, and then responded to the hard counter, and then got hard countered by something else, and so on. I should say that this basically happened around level 9 and onwards (yay Draconic Polymorph), not low epic.

I'll also point out that casters should invest in defensive spells as well as offensive spells; doing so tends to deny enemy actions in a soft sense, as they target the caster and then (likely) fail. For instance, Greater Mirror Image can ruin an enemy monster's day.

[Ger. Bessa]

Edit: Also why are your wizards just now being able to compete with melees? What were they doing at level 7 when polymorph opened up, and bite of the werebear? An incantatrix with persisted polymoprh into say, a grey render, and a persisted bite of the werebear would be out meleeing your melee much earlier than epic levels.

Since the wizard has weak saves, BAB and low hp, going melee is obviously the optimal choice. That is the true power of incantatrix. (Metamagic effects come at lv8 btw).

Being on a timer can also limit the scrying. Open spaces can favor the melee fighters. Flight makes many BFC useless. A simple plan (ranged shots, charge and smack) may seem easy to disrupt (fog, tentacles), but if a monster has more than one, a wizard might just be spending ressources without getting a full lockdown.

And it might seem weird but hp attrition can kill a wizard, especially if he thinks healbots are for n00bs. Sure he can have protection from arrows, and other buffs, but that's still a trade, and attrition comes down to that.

Most outsiders have many su/sla. If the wizard goes BFC, he may not put enough offensive pressure on the monsters and allow them to act, wich can be worse than just charging and threatening them.

[Kazyan]

Okay, seeing about half a dozen reasons here that would explain what's going on, I think we're all just completely incompetent at casters. Which is somewhat disheartening, seeing as how I've been here for years, have read the guides repeatedly, and still can't get the basics right. Thanks, guys.

[AvatarVecna]

I think I've figured out why, at least at my table: saves and damage don't really matter against an acceptably optimized melee character, but they do to an acceptably optimized caster, and casters take longer to remove threats.

Not necessarily. If you optimized a melee character as much as you did the caster, they should both have very little concern for saving throws and damage. The only difference is that the melee guy is unconcerned because he has high numbers (high AC, high HP, high saves) to the point that his enemies can only succeed on a 20 and he can only fail on a 1; meanwhile, the caster is straight up immune to basically everything (including HP damage and death, once you've got Hide Life). Therefore, in regards to defense, the caster has a slight advantage over the melee if they're actually going head-to-head (virtual immunity vs. actual immunity). On offense, however, the caster has the advantage; even on the off chance the melee can fly, the caster can fly and teleport and become completely undetectable, all the while still able to throw spells towards the melee. Now, while the melee has only the option of targeting the caster's AC (if he can even find the caster), the caster can target the melee with spells that ignore SR, saving throws, AC, concealment, cover, insubstantial-ness, and everything else with the right spell and metamagic combo.

The only level of optimization where the caster is helpless against the melee is one where the melee is optimized to hell and back while the caster is being run by a toddler. It's like a game of chess where a grandmaster only has his king, and an amateur has a full assortment of pieces. Sure, the amateur beat the grandmaster, but at this point it's not really sporting, now is it?

[(Un)Inspired]

It sounds like your casters are attempting to fight like a fighter would. That is to say, they are trying to use their spells like a fighter would use his sword to damage his enemies.

There's really no reason a wizard needs to act this way. If a wizard is gonna try to effect an enemy with a spell that allows a save he should make sure to cast the spell at least 20 times in a round to make sure it sticks.

Even that's probably more work than is necessary. A Wizard can just hang out in his Doom regular fortress that he's fabricated/stone shaped/create demiplaned and have his army of planar bound angels fight for him.

[Segev]

I apologize if this sounds like I'm putting you and your group down; I'm not. It really is harder in practical play to pull off some of the things this board assumes than it is to theorize it, if only because there comes a point where you're looking across the table at your DM and seeing that he's feeling put upon, and you start conceding optimization choices you'd otherwise make so he'll stop making puppy-dog eyes with a pushed-out lower lip. It's just disturbing.

*ahem*

Mechanically, the key that you seem to be missing is that your casters are finding themselves exposed to enemies who go around the fighter to get to the caster. This generally shouldn't happen at higher levels.

The casters should be flying, obviously. They should also have means of immediate-action escape (abrupt jaunt being popular with Conjurers) and, possibly, BFC that is not circumventable. As noted, BFC is best dropped right on top of enemies, not placed where they have options to go around. If you must place it in such a way, you do give your fighter-types a chance to shine when you position it to make the "go around" option mean "get funnelled to the tank."

Casters who find themselves nevertheless frequent targets should have several layers of defense. Mage Armor and Shield are all well and good, but they should have a miss chance from blur or displacement and an even stronger not-called-a-"miss-chance" from mirror image, for starters. If it's archery and the like that's causing you difficulty, wind wall is amazingly useful.

The one thing fighter-types - meleeists in particular - will almost always do better than casters is direct-to-the-face hit point damage. Enable them to do this. Your favorite damage spell should have a verbal component of "[Fighter-type's Name], Kill him" and a somatic component of a pointed finger. Your job is to make sure that his enormous amounts of damage are even greater still, by enlarging or polymorphing him, by making sure he can get to the enemies with fly or other such spells, and by ensuring that the enemies cannot get away from him nor get into too advantageous a position relative to him.

If you have an ubercharger in your party and you have solid combatants who prefer not to have to charge, consider picking up benign transposition. The ubercharger charges, and then you swap his place with your other fighter-type who doesn't want to have to move into combat. The other guy now can full attack to his heart's content, while the ubercharger gets to charge in next round all over again!

Benign transposition can also get your caster out of those tough spots. Bad guys have avoided the front-liners and the BFC to get in your face? One benign transposition later, and you're out of harm's way while your front-liner who just loves exchanging blows face-to-face is grinning at the bad guy. (This is especially fun if your front-liner is of the chain tripper or karmic strike variety.)

The key to caster supremacy is to think carefully and tactically about the spells you're going to use. The biggest flaw likely to remain, after that, is the fact that in practice, you don't always have time to put all your buffs up. Have a battle plan to gain control of the situation as fast as possible. You want to be able to set your fighter-types up to hold the line or wipe things out quickly. If they can do the latter, then you didn't need the buffs. The former is crucial to give you time to get your defenses in place. I, personally, suggest Mirror Image as your round-1 buff if you face foes who can get into your face no matter what else you do. After that, try to control the battlefield to buy you time for the rest of it. But this will vary based on the spells you have and your party composition. A well-timed benign transposition remains spectacular. (Heck, in a pinch, it's a poor-man's teleport spell for you. Send your familiar to a hard-to-reach place and swap with him.)

A caster needs to be mobile and needs to keep his dirty tricks flying fast and furious. He's all about not being where the harm is happening, and making sure harm is directed at things that aren't him. Focus on that for your defense, and then focus on BFC for your offense (and defense), and only THEN worry about full-fledged fight-winning moves. And remember that your front-liners are there to deal and take damage, and that if you can make them able to better position themselves to do so, you don't NEED to independently take down foes.

[AvatarVecna]

The key to caster supremacy is to think carefully and tactically about the spells you're going to use. The biggest flaw likely to remain, after that, is the fact that in practice, you don't always have time to put all your buffs up. Have a battle plan to gain control of the situation as fast as possible.

As a small aside, this right here is one of the main many reasons why "Time Stop" is so overpowered. Oh, the enemy got the drop on you and none of your buffs are up? One time stop later and those enemies are now dealing with an enemy that's got the time to cast anywhere from 4-10 buff spells, including Shapechange. It's such an optimal tactic, it was even used in OOTS to demonstrate how a powerful caster could absolutely curbstomp a big dragon with class levels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html).

And the absolute closest a melee bruiser can ever come to that is a 9th lvl Diamond Mind maneuver that grants you an additional round on your turn. As opposed to, you know, 1d4+1 extra rounds. Because that's a totally fair trade.

[Segev]

Well... technically, if the melee bruiser can get enough bonuses and boosts as permanent or day-long effects, he can manage the same thing. But that can be...expensive.

I think it's because the designers of D&D forgot that the return for having fewer options in an immediately flexible sense was that fighter-types were supposed to have more repeatable, permanently-available effects.

Design-wise, the high-level caster might be said to deserve to need time stop if the high-level fighter-type had his best features - on par with if not necessarily equal in all ways to (or as flexible as) those of the caster - all the time.

[Urpriest]

I always have trouble connecting with the sentiments towards wizards automatically winning every combat forever, and how melee somehow still doesn't have enough nice things. I think I've figured out why, at least at my table: saves and damage don't really matter against an acceptably optimized melee character, but they do to an acceptably optimized caster, and casters take longer to remove threats.

We've tried battlefield control and debuffs and such for our casters; usually that's a waste of an action because the monster will just make the relevant saving throw or walk/fly around the BFC with the high move speeds that monsters often have, and if that doesn't work, they'll use a ranged attack. Then the caster draws attention and starts panicking over the damage they're now eating from said monster.

In contrast, a Warblade can absorb copious amounts of damage and is functionally immune to anything that requires a saving throw. Then they just walk up to the monster after it's done with its turn and kill it. If it doesn't happen this turn because of the maneuver that does +Yes damage, it will shortly thereafter.

Even in my game that reached low epic, the casters finally started pulling ahead mostly because they could duplicate the functionality of a melee character, be it by summoning, blasting while standing next to the healbot, or piloting a ludicrously empowered flesh golem. I've played in, like, a dozen other games, and none of them have resulted in dominant casters.

What's going on here? Is my group just extraordinarily inept at the game or something, despite knowing how to handle monsters at CR+3 consistently?

I've highlighted the problem here. "The monster" should almost never be a meaningful statement. Most combats are with multiple, weaker monsters, which is generally when BFC shines.

It's not that casters don't have good options for fighting a single monster: they do, but they're not usually BFC, or at least not usually the kind of BFC that offers saves.

[Crake]

Since the wizard has weak saves, BAB and low hp, going melee is obviously the optimal choice. That is the true power of incantatrix. (Metamagic effects come at lv8 btw).

Being on a timer can also limit the scrying. Open spaces can favor the melee fighters. Flight makes many BFC useless. A simple plan (ranged shots, charge and smack) may seem easy to disrupt (fog, tentacles), but if a monster has more than one, a wizard might just be spending ressources without getting a full lockdown.

And it might seem weird but hp attrition can kill a wizard, especially if he thinks healbots are for n00bs. Sure he can have protection from arrows, and other buffs, but that's still a trade, and attrition comes down to that.

Most outsiders have many su/sla. If the wizard goes BFC, he may not put enough offensive pressure on the monsters and allow them to act, wich can be worse than just charging and threatening them.

Well, with a bunch of persisted buffs, the wizard will surely do better than a typical fighter in melee. What with something in the realm of 30-40 strength, low bab is irrelevant, doubly so if you're using natural attacks for damage. Hp should also be irrelevant, since the idea is to be nigh immune to being hit in the first place. Persisted displacement, persisted greater mirror image. The con boost from bite of the werebear gives you the same average HP as a d12 HD, so you aren't going to be lacking there, either that or get initiate of the faerie mysteries and just have a massive hp pool from the get-go with your enormous int.

Do note however, that I'm not saying that going melee is the most optimised choice for a wizard, merely that its more than possible to be better than melee classes as a wizard long before epic levels. Flight makes SOME BFC useless, there are still plenty out there that work great. A fell drain acid fog can be especially hilarious, leaving enemies trapped inside with no save, no SR, 2d6 acid damage and a negative level each round, and they can only move 5 feet each round while inside. Add in energy substitution if necessary to bypass immunities/resistances, and widen spell to make it even longer before they get out (if they can live that long).

And that's just 1 spell.

[Ger. Bessa]

And that's just blasting (with a debatable interpretation of fell drain).

A fog/cloud in open space really isn't as threatening as in a corridor. Feats are far more expendable for monsters, they can take a few to improve their movements.

And again why a caster would use his actions to smack things when his basic chassis is so unadapted ? He should polymorph and bite the fighter !

Besides, the OP said his casters tried to drop BFCs, not blasting. All the blasting/polymorph gishing were suggestions made by other posters.

And I know and understand the point that full casters have tremendous power, but compared to my experience, I was never able to be THAT finger-snaping god for long. Last party I played with, I was a (bad) wizard in a party of dwarf fighter, dwarf monk, half elf rogue ranger. A cleric healbot joined in a bit later. First fight I dropped the stinking cloud, everybody made the save (but the fighter who rushed IN). I then threw glitterdust (2 missed saves on 4) and the monsters (ettercaps) dropped their BFCs. I missed a concentration, then I thought "enough of that ****, polymorph hydra" and soloed the four of them.

I then singlehandedly saved the lives of my teammates around 3/day for two days.

Yes I was OP. No the BFCs were not enough. No after that the DM never let me in any situation where I was able to use my spells to attack. I was Isolated in a F**king magic dungeon (blinded for hours if I tried detect magic), teleporting stones, anti-magic rooms, rooms full of undead, resetting mons, passive damage and a team of villains that seemed to be after me (while they were supposed to mirror the whole party + a npc we had to find)

A halfling with 3 or four stealth enhancing templates hid in my rope trick, stole my book, then I got ganged by the "ranger" (a lycanthrop homebrew with Animal companion that could give his classe features to his pet and tag team sneak attack me)

I had 7 encounters, no rest, spellbook stolen when I was reunited with the party for the big team fight. In the end I killed two of those bastards, then the halfling with extreme prejudice (a tendriculos was my last spell that day).

I was overpowered, but the DM never let me play the nice friendly BFC guy. He may not have been a perfect DM, but when I see you say how easy it is to deal with this or that with this spell or that spell, I don't think you're playing a game with a DM who wants to make you work for your heroism.

If your DM let you live with your theorycrafting, you're not challenged by your DM, you're in a shared erotic stimulation. Yes the theory is good. Yes it gives an enjoyable time for everyone. But why should a DM let you just crush your 4 encounters a day with your force ? Don't give downtime, don't give rest, and casters feel very sorry.

And when they survive and thrive with their d4 hp and their build unprepared for what the dm wants to put you through, they feel good. And they don't feel cheap because they play a tier 1 caster.

[Segev]

There's nothing to be done about an adversarial DM who changes or ignores rules to screw over your caster, no.

But a DM who plays by the rules isn't being overly permissive.

You're right; a DM can run a game that challenges casters. The lack of rest can get draining. Practical gaming can be very different from theorycraft. However, a player who knows what he's doing with a caster can still pretty much curbstomp any fairly-run game with encounters even marginally approaching CR-appropriate.

[Crake]

And that's just blasting (with a debatable interpretation of fell drain).

A fog/cloud in open space really isn't as threatening as in a corridor. Feats are far more expendable for monsters, they can take a few to improve their movements.

You seem to be forgetting that acid cloud also functions like solid fog, in that creatures inside it cannot move more than 5ft per round. A widened acid fog is 40ft radius, plop it right ontop of someone that's at least 8 rounds to exit the area. In those 8 rounds, they cannot see outside the fog, and thus cannot act against people outside the fog, meanwhile you can continue to throw area of effect spells into the fog, or just leave them to die to negative levels.

This is especially devastating against fliers, because an average or worse flier unable to maintain forward momentum stalls and falls to the ground. Good and above still need to spend 8 rounds escaping, so yeah, it works perfectly fine in open spaces. Sure maybe you wont be able to catch as many of them if they spread out, but it's at least 1 guarenteed 8 round disable barring the enemy having freedom of movement or some form of extradimensional travel that doesn't rely on line of sight.

Add quicken to it, and that makes 2 guarenteed disables per round.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One common wizard assumption I've noticed here is that casters have either Persistent spells or the time (and resources) to cast several buffs before a fight. And those are... not always as possible as theorycrafting would suggest. There are only so many ways to Persist spells, and most of them don't kick in until higher levels-- both literal levels and optimization levels. And pre-buffs? Even if you have multiple rounds of prep time-- definitely not always possible-- it's even less likely that those spells will still be in effect in the next fight. Things like mage armor, alter self and overland flight are easy to keep up, but good luck going into every fight with a blur/displacement/blink, mirror image, and bite of the were____. Not if you want to cast spells during the fight, and certainly not if you want utility spells on the side.

[Story]

One common wizard assumption I've noticed here is that casters have either Persistent spells or the time (and resources) to cast several buffs before a fight. And those are... not always as possible as theorycrafting would suggest. There are only so many ways to Persist spells, and most of them don't kick in until higher levels-- both literal levels and optimization levels. And pre-buffs? Even if you have multiple rounds of prep time-- definitely not always possible-- it's even less likely that those spells will still be in effect in the next fight. Things like mage armor, alter self and overland flight are easy to keep up, but good luck going into every fight with a blur/displacement/blink, mirror image, and bite of the were____. Not if you want to cast spells during the fight, and certainly not if you want utility spells on the side.

That's a matter of op level. Obviously not every game is going to have Incantrixes. In a lower op game you can still have a Wizard with the basic hour/level buffs up slinging Web, Haste, Black Tentacles, etc. They can't be a better melee than the melee without even trying any more but they're still massively OP. It's only once you get to the level of Fireball Wizards that they stop shining.

The reason that people talk about persisting stuff all the time is that this forum tends to focus on very high op levels.




And again why a caster would use his actions to smack things when his basic chassis is so unadapted ? He should polymorph and bite the fighter !

Because Draconic Polymorph and Bite of the Werebear and anything else a Wizard might want to persist are Personal only. It takes a lot of shenanigans to get those onto other people.

If Persist Spell is out of the question, then it's true that it's often worthwhile to buff the fighter instead.

[Venger]

The reason that people talk about persisting stuff all the time is that this forum tends to focus on very high op levels.

Because Draconic Polymorph and Bite of the Werebear and anything else a Wizard might want to persist are Personal only. It takes a lot of shenanigans to get those onto other people.

If Persist Spell is out of the question, then it's true that it's often worthwhile to buff the fighter instead.

not really? you could just use ocular spell instead of getting weird with spellguard of silverymoon. make it your thesis and things get easier still, and that's without any other feats.

yeah, it's generally acknowledged as good manners to buff the BSFs, plus it's more efficient to let them deal HP damage rather than try to do everything yourself. opportunity cost and all that.

[Story]

Occular Spell doesn't work on Personal spells. So you could try to persist Haste or something but you're still not getting Bite of the Werex.

And besides, Occular Spell has several downsides (requiring a feat, +spell level) that make it impractical on anything but a high level Incantrix.

[Venger]

Occular Spell doesn't work on Personal spells. So you could try to persist Haste or something but you're still not getting Bite of the Werex.

And besides, Occular Spell has several downsides (requiring a feat, +spell level) that make it impractical on anything but a high level Incantrix.

sorry, it doesn't. it does help with touch spells though if you run them through reach first, but unless it's your arcane thesis, we're already getting pretty pricey level-wise.

hm, spellvials don't work either.

I guess it's go spellguard or go home for bite of the werefoo.

[Auron3991]

I understand your sentiments entirely. One of the big problems is that you have to be insanely good at keeping track of everything your spells can do and exploiting the little things. Like Zone of Silence sounds horrible for casters, but the silent spell feat suddenly turns it into the ability to negate enemy casters while still being able to cast your own spells. Rope trick lets your party hide all night at level nine. Web creates difficult terrain to stop charging. Ironically, a caster probably needs to know the rules surrounding normal combat maneuvers, skill usage, and environmental hazards better than the people who actually use them. It's a little more than I care to deal with, so I usually just blast (of course, if you ever start a spell with words maximized, twinned, and repeating then your DM may start throwing things).

In all reality, casters suffer heavily from being able to prepare for some things all the time, all things some of the time, but not all things all the time. Melee fighters have access to all their combat maneuvers pretty much all the time.

As a final note, 3.X has a massive power differential when it comes to experience. The difference between a mildly experienced one and a veteran can be orders of magnitude, so that may be coming into play here.

[Crake]

One common wizard assumption I've noticed here is that casters have either Persistent spells or the time (and resources) to cast several buffs before a fight. And those are... not always as possible as theorycrafting would suggest. There are only so many ways to Persist spells, and most of them don't kick in until higher levels-- both literal levels and optimization levels. And pre-buffs? Even if you have multiple rounds of prep time-- definitely not always possible-- it's even less likely that those spells will still be in effect in the next fight. Things like mage armor, alter self and overland flight are easy to keep up, but good luck going into every fight with a blur/displacement/blink, mirror image, and bite of the were____. Not if you want to cast spells during the fight, and certainly not if you want utility spells on the side.

if you arent going for all day persisted spells then you'll probably want to get reactionary spells, like nerveskitter, and greater mirror image (many people don't seem to realise greater mirror image is an immediate action)

[Uncle Pine]

Because Draconic Polymorph and Bite of the Werebear and anything else a Wizard might want to persist are Personal only. It takes a lot of shenanigans to get those onto other people.

Just passing by to say that spellblades are a measly 6.000 gp investment, not exactly "a lot of shenanigans".

Also, remember that BFC isn't necessarily about targeting the right save hoping for a low roll: simply summoning a critter in the right place can let you control the field simply by forcing your enemies to deal with the fact that there's a Large bison in front of the squishy Wizard.

[Venger]

if you arent going for all day persisted spells then you'll probably want to get reactionary spells, like nerveskitter, and greater mirror image (many people don't seem to realise greater mirror image is an immediate action)

seriously?

that's half the point of greater mirror image.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

1. Many defensive buffs are long-duration, like the Heart of [Element] line and Overland Flight.
2. Many defensive buffs are cast as a swift or immediate action, like the aforementioned Greater Mirror Image.
3. If you really want high BaB then wizards can get Divine Power from Arcane Disciple: Hero. Not that it's entirely necessary, or all that efficient without persisting. High to-hit, (touch) AC, HP, and even saves (in part through save bonuses, in part through sky-high con/dex) can be obtained through a variety of spells. It is true that a pure wizard going melee is only really going to work with persistomancy though.
4. Wizards have access to useful defensive magic items just like everyone else. They just aren't as reliant on them since some things can be replicated with spells.

Honestly though, sometimes the best thing for a mid op low-mid level wizard to do is buff the party, sit back, and eat some popcorn. If the enemy is then dumb enough to go after the popcorn-eating guy in robes, he can use defensive magicks to waste the enemy's time.

[Crake]

seriously?

that's half the point of greater mirror image.

Well, that's been my experience for the most part, nobody ever believes me when I tell them it's an immediate action, so I have to pull my books out every time :smalltongue:

[Venger]

Well, that's been my experience for the most part, nobody ever believes me when I tell them it's an immediate action, so I have to pull my books out every time :smalltongue:

whenever a spell has "see original version of spell for the rest of the rules," I swear people just don't pay attention to the rest

[ace rooster]

One common wizard assumption I've noticed here is that casters have either Persistent spells or the time (and resources) to cast several buffs before a fight. And those are... not always as possible as theorycrafting would suggest. There are only so many ways to Persist spells, and most of them don't kick in until higher levels-- both literal levels and optimization levels. And pre-buffs? Even if you have multiple rounds of prep time-- definitely not always possible-- it's even less likely that those spells will still be in effect in the next fight. Things like mage armor, alter self and overland flight are easy to keep up, but good luck going into every fight with a blur/displacement/blink, mirror image, and bite of the were____. Not if you want to cast spells during the fight, and certainly not if you want utility spells on the side.

A wizard without time to buff is not being imaginative. The 9th level version is literally to make more time, but you don't need to be as literal as that. (Chained) Invisibility is the easiest one, and a wall of ice or solid fog can often slow the enemies enough for you to get buffs up on everyone. Expeditious retreat is often enough to prevent attack, but fly is the traditional spell for this purpose. Either will mean that you can avoid attack in open areas. If you are in real trouble dimension door is one option, but resiliant sphere is fun too when cast on yourself (or an ally in trouble, or a random that you use as a target to block a corridor) as it allows you to re-enter the battle at will. You still even look like a squishy caster until someone charges you and faceplants on the invisible invulnerable sphere.

Most of these tactics are not infallible, but they generally require a quite specific counter. These are only some of the core ones you can do at level 7 and are save independent.

[Crake]

resiliant sphere is fun too when cast on yourself (or an ally in trouble, or a random that you use as a target to block a corridor) as it allows you to re-enter the battle at will. You still even look like a squishy caster until someone charges you and faceplants on the invisible invulnerable sphere.

I actually particularly like resilient sphere combined with abrupt jaunt (anklets of translocation sadly don't suffice, because they require LoE) to be able to hop in and out of safety. Unfortunately the second bit doesn't really work, because the resilient sphere is "A globe of shimmering force" so it is most definitely visible.

[Segev]

This doesn't work in PF, and there are those who will try to argue that it doesn't in 3.5 (though the rules in 3.5 do allow for it with the way they're written), but a feasible way to get buffs of level 3 or lower onto others and to do so quickly is to create Spell Storing Shurriken. They're enchanted as ammo, so you get 50 of them per batch, and each can store a spell. Even as a mage sucking massive penalties for doing so, you can "two weapon fight" without the feat to hurl two of them per round at your ally who is explicitly not dodging. If you've got a fighter-type who's willing to give up his action in the first round, his full attack could hurl still more. It both solves the "targeting" problem (personal spells are "single target" and thus fit in the spell storing weapon) and gives significantly faster "casting time" to them. Plus, it lets you give the buffing duty to whoever has the most efficient use of his first round's action being buffing.