Thrallherds & Thralls

[Pippin]

I don't quite understand what the level of a thrall means. I suppose it's the same thing as the level of a cohort for the Leadership feat, but I couldn't find anything about it. So, if a thrallherd has a level 17 thrall, does that mean that he has a certain number of ECL 17 people willing to help?

If I want someone with a special build in my thrall (like, I don't know, someone with 6 levels of bard, 5 levels of fighter and 6 levels of cleric), is this allowed or is this extremely dependent on the DM?

Also, what's the point in having a second thrall if the first one is renewable within 24 hours?

Thank you in advance for your help.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If I want someone with a special build in my thrall (like, I don't know, someone with 6 levels of bard, 5 levels of fighter and 6 levels of cleric), is this allowed or is this extremely dependent on the DM?
It's highly dependant on the DM. Some DMs treat thralls and cohorts as NPCs, others as PCs. However, since you're a badass psion with access to psychic reformation and such, you can always build the thrall that suits your lifestyle. It's not like the thrall will complain (the DM might).

You have one thrall/cohort of up to 17th level due to the Thrallherd ability; you can get more by paying people, as normal, and you get a second from Twofold Master. Thralls don't leave if you treat them badly, and you don't have to RP their acquisition, so they are a lot easier and cheaper to get.

Getting a second cohort is useful because you can have them do two things at once, if you are, say, using one as a power repository (a StP erudite) and the other as persistomancer/spell repository (rainbow servant/incantatrix). If your DM rules that spellcasters hate selling/trading for spells, you now have a completely in-class library of all psion/wilder powers, all sorcerer/wizard spells and all cleric spells, and you can manifest all of them (up to 8th level for spells) as powers, by going into a metaconcert with your erudite. You may have to abuse psychic reformation a lot, but at least it's all possible without leaving your batcave.

[JeenLeen]

I'm away from book at the moment, but let me try to answer. Others, feel free to chime in or clarify if I have a detail wrong.


I don't quite understand what the level of a thrall means. I suppose it's the same thing as the level of a cohort for the Leadership feat, but I couldn't find anything about it. So, if a thrallherd has a level 17 thrall, does that mean that he has a certain number of ECL 17 people willing to help?


A thrallherd gets a thrall (basically a cohort) as well as followers. If you have a level 17 thrall, that means you have 1 person who is level 17 (or ECL 17, I guess, for LA and such) who is utterly loyal to you. This is in addition to your followers. But you do not have multiple level 17 guys.


If I want someone with a special build in my thrall (like, I don't know, someone with 6 levels of bard, 5 levels of fighter and 6 levels of cleric), is this allowed or is this extremely dependent on the DM?
I'm not sure about the RAW, but I think most DMs would and should limit how optimized the thrall's build should be. Thrallherd, like Leadership, is probably banned in most campaigns due to how broken it can get due to action economy.
Fluff-wise, you attract a person through your psionic pull, and it seems like it is unlikely you can really control who is gained as a thrall beyond perhaps some basics, so it fits that you couldn't specify their entire build. I would think most DMs would let you choose the basics, though, and maybe multiclassing like your example would be okay.


Also, what's the point in having a second thrall if the first one is renewable within 24 hours?
You can use both in combat at the same time, so instead of one cohort nearly in level with you, you have two. You could have a tank and a caster, for example, to fulfill different roles.


By the way, there's a (to my knowledge no longer updating) webcomic called Another Gaming Comic. There was an evil campaign in it where one guy played a thrallherd. It noted the power of twenty or so level 1-2 wizards with a wand of Magic Missile against anyone without damage reduction, for a really awesome PvP moment. Also gives a fun perspective on mistreating followers.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, if you really want to cheese it up, and you're allowed to build your own thralls, you should build them as Thrallherds. And build their thralls as Thrallherds. And build their thralls as Thrallherds...and so on.

I've built builds like that before (that stack multiple Leadership-like abilities at all levels of Thralls), and you end up with somewhere in the neighborhood of millions of NPCs (of various levels) under your control.

[Pippin]

A thrallherd gets a thrall (basically a cohort) as well as followers. If you have a level 17 thrall, that means you have 1 person who is level 17 (or ECL 17, I guess, for LA and such) who is utterly loyal to you. This is in addition to your followers. But you do not have multiple level 17 guys.
Oh okay, so a level X thrall is actually a group of people whose total ECL equals X.


You can use both in combat at the same time, so instead of one cohort nearly in level with you, you have two. You could have a tank and a caster, for example, to fulfill different roles.
I see now, the cheese comes from combat. Thanks.


Getting a second cohort is useful because you can have them do two things at once, if you are, say, using one as a power repository (a StP erudite) and the other as persistomancer/spell repository (rainbow servant/incantatrix). If your DM rules that spellcasters hate selling/trading for spells, you now have a completely in-class library of all psion/wilder powers, all sorcerer/wizard spells and all cleric spells, and you can manifest all of them (up to 8th level for spells) as powers, by going into a metaconcert with your erudite. You may have to abuse psychic reformation a lot, but at least it's all possible without leaving your batcave.
As you said, you can manifest any power or spell of up to 8th-level with this, but the real challenge here, in my opinion, is to find a way to get 9th-level spells as well. I've been unable to find any solid method for this, but I think the Thrallherd PrC enables this, though I haven't found the correct, legal way yet.

The main problem is to find a way for a friendly Erudite to manifest 10th-level powers, and so far whenever that issue was addressed, people would simply suggest to get both the Mantled Erudite ACF, coupled with the Sanctum Spell feat, and the Convert Spell to Power ACF, even though you're technically not allowed to take more than 1 ACF.

You can however, easily get a mantle by taking one level of ardent, then 17 levels of CStP Erudite. Problem: the Thrallherd PrC doesn't allow you to get a 18th-level thrall, so you need to find another way. It would probably be a good idea to use Fusion on an Ardent (level 1 believer) and an Erudite (level 17 thrall), then use Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos to add Sanctum Spell in the fusioned creature's mind, but Fusion would have to last at least 8 hours for the fusioned creature to add a new power to the Erudite's repertoire.

So... that would require Consumptive Field cheese, probably. Unless someone has a more elegant way to acquire 9th-level spells, of course :smallsigh:

Edit: Actually, the Erudite might as well start committing the power to his repertoire once Fusion is over. At this point he wouldn't need to be able to manifest 10th-level powers anymore. In this case, a third-party could simply manifest Dispel Psionics on the fusioned creature in the same turn they got the new power, and the Erudite could start the 8-hour procedure right afterward.

[JeenLeen]

Oh okay, so a level X thrall is actually a group of people whose total ECL equals X.

No. A level X thrall is a character that is equivalent to level X (or is level X, if LA is not an option.)
You have your thrall as well as followers, just like the Leadership feat gives you a cohort and followers. The level of the thrall is not directly related to the levels of your followers.

I'm using 'followers' in the vague sense here. I don't recall what they are called with Thrallherd class abilities or the Leadership feat.

[Red Fel]

I'm using 'followers' in the vague sense here. I don't recall what they are called with Thrallherd class abilities or the Leadership feat.

Thrallherd : Thrall : Believers :: Leadership : Cohort : Followers.

But yeah. Basically, the class provides a table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm#thrallherd) describing the levels of your Thrall(s) and Believers based on your Leadership level. Unlike the Leadership feat, a Thrallherd's score is based on Thrallherd levels (as well as character level and Cha modifier); unlike Leadership, you don't lose Leadership score when your believers snuff it.

So, by way of example, let's say you have a Psion 5/ Thrallherd 10, with a +2 Cha modifier. That's a Leadership score of 15 (character level) + 10 (Thrallherd level) + 2 (Cha modifier), or 27. That gets you a Thrall of 17th level; since you're only level 15, it caps at your level -1, or 14. Additionally, since you're a 10th-level Thrallherd, you get a second Thrall of one level lower, or 13th level. It also gets you a massive boatload of believers, although they don't level up and, as with Leadership, are "rarely effective in combat."

In any event, in more direct response to your questions, OP:

- How your Thrall(s) is (are) designed depends primarily on your DM; some are more permissive, some are not.
- The advantage of having a second Thrall is the advantage of having an extra PC who is two levels lower than you are. Action economy advantage is huge, even if it's on an NPC.

[Pippin]

- How your Thrall(s) is (are) designed depends primarily on your DM; some are more permissive, some are not.
- The advantage of having a second Thrall is the advantage of having an extra PC who is two levels lower than you are. Action economy advantage is huge, even if it's on an NPC.
So this means that, an ECL 20 Psion with 10 levels of Trallherd could, theoretically, use the assistance of two min(17, 20-2) = 17th-level characters. That's amazing.

[Red Fel]

So this means that, an ECL 20 Psion with 10 levels of Trallherd could, theoretically, use the assistance of two min(17, 20-2) = 17th-level characters. That's amazing.

No. The second Thrall is one level lower. Also, the table caps out at 17. Thus, a Psion 10/ Thrallherd 10, who would have a Leadership score in excess of 30, would have one level 17 Thrall, and one level 16 Thrall.

That's still amazing, though; you're absolutely right.

[Mehangel]

No. The second Thrall is one level lower. Also, the table caps out at 17. Thus, a Psion 10/ Thrallherd 10, who would have a Leadership score in excess of 30, would have one level 17 Thrall, and one level 16 Thrall.

That's still amazing, though; you're absolutely right.

I dont know if this is referring to a different Thrallherd, but in the Thrallherd published by Dreamscarred Press, it states the following, emphasis mine:


Twofold Master (Ex): At 10th level, a thrallherd adds a second thrall to her herd. This second thrall’s maximum level is equal to the thrallherd’s level minus 2, even if her Leadership score would indicate a higher level thrall. The thrallherd suffers a negative level penalty for 48 hours if her second thrall dies, just like the penalty if her first thrall dies. These negative levels stack if both thralls die.

So according to the above quotation, you wouldnt get a thrall of 17 and a thrall of 16, but rather two thralls of 17th level.

[ExLibrisMortis]

No. The second Thrall is one level lower. Also, the table caps out at 17. Thus, a Psion 10/ Thrallherd 10, who would have a Leadership score in excess of 30, would have one level 17 Thrall, and one level 16 Thrall.
The level difference is between the thrallherd and thrall, not between thralls invidivually. Thrall #1 has a max level of [thrallherd's level - 1], thrall #2 has a max level of [thrallherd's level - 2], and both are capped at 17. If [thrallherd's level - 2] is 17 or higher, both thralls will be 17th level.

[Red Fel]

So according to the above quotation, you wouldnt get a thrall of 17 and a thrall of 16, but rather two thralls of 17th level.


The level difference is between the thrallherd and thrall, not between thralls invidivually. Thrall #1 has a max level of [thrallherd's level - 1], thrall #2 has a max level of [thrallherd's level - 2], and both are capped at 17. If [thrallherd's level - 2] is 17 or higher, both thralls will be 17th level.

Re-reading, quite right. They're Thrallherd's level -1 and -2, respectively, max 17; at 20, they both cap out at 17. I sit corrected.

[AvatarVecna]

1. The way the ability works (Thrallherd Leadership Score=Character Level+Thrallherd Level+Cha mod), a character with Charisma 10 and 10 levels in Thrallherd has a Thrallherd Leadership Score of 25, the maximum the chart allows for.

2. The thrall level on the chart is the maximum thrall level you can attract; it's at least partially arguable that if you attracted Thralls of that level and adventured with them, they would level up. Of course, this can get pretty cheesy if it's abused.

[Urpriest]

In terms of the build, the DM chooses, but many DMs will delegate. If your DM isn't willing to delegate and your game is especially dysfunctional, you can just kill off your thralls until you get one with the build you want, since there isn't any penalty for killing your thralls.

[Mehangel]

In terms of the build, the DM chooses, but many DMs will delegate. If your DM isn't willing to delegate and your game is especially dysfunctional, you can just kill off your thralls until you get one with the build you want, since there isn't any penalty for killing your thralls.

Well except for the temporary negative level you acquire for the death of the thrall..

[AvatarVecna]

In terms of the build, the DM chooses, but many DMs will delegate. If your DM isn't willing to delegate and your game is especially dysfunctional, you can just kill off your thralls until you get one with the build you want, since there isn't any penalty for killing your thralls.

Yeah, that's a fun way to abuse the rules. I think I used it awhile back in the "prostitution in D&D?" thread; I had my enthralled hoes work themselves to death, then collected the life insurance I'd taken out on them and then enthralled new ones. Every once in a while, I'd have them tie themselves up in the basement, then release and enthrall some sort of band of monsters nearby, then have the monsters raid the whorehouse, steal everything of value (insured, of course), kill the whores (insured, of course), and burn down the whorehouse (insured, of course). Then I'd slay them myself while they put up a token resistance, and I'd be rewarded with money and the city's gratitude for wiping out such an evil menace before they could harm any more citizens. Good times...

[Rubik]

Well except for the temporary negative level you acquire for the death of the thrall..I don't think that rule exists anywhere in the class description. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/thrallherd.htm)

[Segev]

Well except for the temporary negative level you acquire for the death of the thrall..

Uh, wha?

That must be a PF Thrallherd thing; there's no such penalty in 3.5.

[Mehangel]

Uh, wha?

That must be a PF Thrallherd thing; there's no such penalty in 3.5.

Yeah, that was a pathfinder thing... In the thrallherd published by Dreamscarred Press for pathfinder, they included the following:


A thrallherd establishes a resonance with his thrall and suffers if the thrall is killed. For 48 hours following the loss of a thrall, a thrallherd suffers one negative level. This negative level may not be healed by any means until 48 hours have passed since the thrall’s death, at which point it fades naturally. Should the thrallherd’s new thrall die while the thrallherd is still suffering a negative level, he acquires an additional negative level, and the duration of any negative levels gained through losing a thrall resets to 48 hours from the time the most recent thrall was lost.

[Red Fel]

Well except for the temporary negative level you acquire for the death of the thrall..

I think you're talking about the PF version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/thrallherd#TOC-Thrallherd-Ex-); the 3.5 version carries no such penalty.

[AvatarVecna]

Ninjas. Ninjas everywhere...

EDIT: So that I'm actually contributing to the conversation, I'm just gonna say that the temporary negative level was probably included specifically to dissuade players from using this "catch and release" style tactic.

[atemu1234]

1. The way the ability works (Thrallherd Leadership Score=Character Level+Thrallherd Level+Cha mod), a character with Charisma 10 and 10 levels in Thrallherd has a Thrallherd Leadership Score of 25, the maximum the chart allows for.

2. The thrall level on the chart is the maximum thrall level you can attract; it's at least partially arguable that if you attracted Thralls of that level and adventured with them, they would level up. Of course, this can get pretty cheesy if it's abused.

We should avoid this road; where it leads is dark and full of terrors.

[Rubik]

Ninjas. Ninjas everywhere...

EDIT: So that I'm actually contributing to the conversation, I'm just gonna say that the temporary negative level was probably included specifically to dissuade players from using this "catch and release" style tactic.Meh. A few negative levels are totally worth dumping a crap thrall in order to get a good one in its stead.

This doesn't prevent the problem at all; it just annoys the player for a few days.

[AvatarVecna]

We should avoid this road; where it leads is dark and full of terrors.

I have walked down that road of stacked Leadership cheese. It lead to a paradise filled with my millions upon millions of minions.

EDIT:


Meh. A few negative levels are totally worth dumping a crap thrall in order to get a good one in its stead.

This doesn't prevent the problem at all; it just annoys the player for a few days.

Well, yeah. I said that was probably the intention; that it's a blatant violation of Grod's Law is obvious.

[Rubik]

Well, yeah. I said that was probably the intention; that it's a blatant violation of Grod's Law is obvious.By high levels, T1 and T2 casters make it really, really easy to rebuild in a matter of moments, however, so it's not that big of a deal, assuming your DM doesn't fiat-ban such things.

[Segev]

...that it's a blatant violation of Grod's Law is obvious.

I'm sorry, but I have not heard this term before. What is "Grod's Law?"

[Rubik]

I'm sorry, but I have not heard this term before. What is "Grod's Law?""Balancing" bad mechanics by making them annoying to use never makes them better.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm sorry, but I have not heard this term before. What is "Grod's Law?"

Grod_the_Giant (I think that's how it's spelled) is a member of the Playground here. A long time ago, he came up with his own "law of houserules/homebrew" that can be paraphrased as thus: "Thou shalt not attempt to make a mechanic more balanced by making it annoying to use." The reasoning behind the law, as I understand it, is that the less optimization-driven players will just be annoyed by the rule, while the more optimization-driven players will find a way to circumvent it. This rule (a temporary negative level) is a perfect example, because most optimizers will know at least a handful of ways to either mitigate or becoming immune to negative levels entirely.

EDIT: I'm gonna go find a link to his originally posting the rule...assuming I don't get ninja'd.

EDIT 2: Found it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17613518&postcount=102)

[AzraelX]

This rule (a temporary negative level) is a perfect example, because most optimizers will know at least a handful of ways to either mitigate or becoming immune to negative levels entirely.
That's why it states the negative level "may not be healed by any means until 48 hours have passed", so that people can't come up with ways to un-negative level themselves.

While one negative level might not matter, the important part of the penalty is at the end: If another thrall dies before the 48 hours is over, you receive another negative level, and the 48 hour timer resets for all the negative levels you've accumulated.

It isn't merely annoying; it will absolutely prevent you from continuously sending out your thralls to die, because the penalties continue to stack until you stop for a significant period of time.

[Rubik]

That's why it states the negative level "may not be healed by any means until 48 hours have passed", so that people can't come up with ways to un-negative level themselves.

While one negative level might not matter, the important part of the penalty is at the end: If another thrall dies before the 48 hours is over, you receive another negative level, and the 48 hour timer resets for all the negative levels you've accumulated.

It isn't merely annoying; it will absolutely prevent you from continuously sending out your thralls to die, because the penalties continue to stack until you stop for a significant period of time.That's where the immunity comes in. Plus, just wait 24 hours after you kill off (or release) your new thrall if you don't like him. No biggie.

[HaikenEdge]

That's why it states the negative level "may not be healed by any means until 48 hours have passed", so that people can't come up with ways to un-negative level themselves.

While one negative level might not matter, the important part of the penalty is at the end: If another thrall dies before the 48 hours is over, you receive another negative level, and the 48 hour timer resets for all the negative levels you've accumulated.

It isn't merely annoying; it will absolutely prevent you from continuously sending out your thralls to die, because the penalties continue to stack until you stop for a significant period of time.

Death Ward solves that problem entirely.

[Pippin]

Well, since this thread has quickly served its purpose, and since there seems to be a few people here that enjoy talking about Psions, I was wondering what was your typical build for Psions.

10 levels of Thrallherd then as many levels of Anarchic Initiate as possible I suppose? I don't find Anarchic Initiates that great, but that's probably because I don't know them very well. The PrC gives you Wild Surge +2 while Overchannel already grants you a +3 bonus to ML. Chaotic Surge isn't that bad but is totally random. Their biggest pro is that it's a full manifesting PrC though, with early entry at ECL 3 if bloodlines are allowed.

[Mehangel]

Death Ward solves that problem entirely.

Actually I dont think that Death Ward does, at-least not as I interpret the spell text. It might temporarily suppress the penalties, but nowhere do I read that the subject of death ward is immune to the accumulation of negative levels.

[Rubik]

Well, since this thread has quickly served its purpose, and since there seems to be a few people here that enjoy talking about Psions, I was wondering what was your typical build for Psions.

10 levels of Thrallherd then as many levels of Anarchic Initiate as possible I suppose? I don't find Anarchic Initiates that great, but that's probably because I don't know them very well. The PrC gives you Wild Surge +2 while Overchannel already grants you a +3 bonus to ML. Chaotic Surge isn't that bad but is totally random. Their biggest pro is that it's a full manifesting PrC though, with early entry at ECL 3 if bloodlines are allowed.I generally don't take more than one level of anarchic initiate. Chaotic surge is random, but the chances of making out better than you lose are better than even; just combine with Empower to mitigate most of the loss if you come out on the bottom of the roll.

If I'm going with thrallherd as my main PrC, I generally dip into a level of incarnate, followed by the soul manifester (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) PrC. There are soulmelds which boost telepathy powers, so make the most of them, and bind a psionic version of a metamagic rod (see the rules for making psionic items using psionic power versions of spells in the MIC) to your hands for a nice boost to your manifester level. Also see about crafting some psionic versions of the arcanist gloves (which are also in the MIC), since low level powers remain low level powers no matter how much you augment them.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, since this thread has quickly served its purpose, and since there seems to be a few people here that enjoy talking about Psions, I was wondering what was your typical build for Psions.

10 levels of Thrallherd then as many levels of Anarchic Initiate as possible I suppose? I don't find Anarchic Initiates that great, but that's probably because I don't know them very well. The PrC gives you Wild Surge +2 while Overchannel already grants you a +3 bonus to ML. Chaotic Surge isn't that bad but is totally random. Their biggest pro is that it's a full manifesting PrC though, with early entry at ECL 3 if bloodlines are allowed.

It may not be the most optimized thing, but I usually make my Thrallherds either Wilders (for the Cha synergy) or StP Erudites. I also usually try to include a level of Psionic Mindbender.

[HaikenEdge]

Actually I dont think that Death Ward does, at-least not as I interpret the spell text. It might temporarily suppress the penalties, but nowhere do I read that the subject of death ward is immune to the accumulation of negative levels.

In the Pathfinder (and 3.5) SRDs, Energy Drain and Negative Level are in the same section; in fact, with the exception of the heading, "Energy Drain" is literally not mentioned in the section at all. Death Ward (both the Pathfinder and the 3.5 version) explicitly makes you immune to Energy Drain; since Energy Drain is the cause of negative levels, Death Ward would, by default, make you immune from gaining negative levels, which seems to be further backed by the clause, "This spell does not remove negative levels that the subject has already gained", implying that it does remove any negative levels the subject gains while under the influence of the spell.

Regarding Thrallherd builds, I like Egoist 5/Thrallherd 3/Mindbender 1 (assuming the GM lets you)/Thrallherd +3/Heir of Siberys 3/Thrallherd +4/Egoist +1, using Hidden Talent (Mindlink) to get into the Thrallherd while using the Egoist ACF to gain Minor Change Shape. Let's just say I like to like, cheat and steal when I play a thrallherd.

[Mehangel]

In the Pathfinder (and 3.5) SRDs, Energy Drain and Negative Level are in the same section; in fact, with the exception of the heading, "Energy Drain" is literally not mentioned in the section at all. Death Ward (both the Pathfinder and the 3.5 version) explicitly makes you immune to Energy Drain; since Energy Drain is the cause of negative levels, Death Ward would, by default, make you immune from gaining negative levels, which seems to be further backed by the clause, "This spell does not remove negative levels that the subject has already gained", implying that it does remove any negative levels the subject gains while under the influence of the spell.

I suppose I stand corrected, I was simply under the impression that with the mention of Energy Drain, it was specifically making mention of the spell and monster special attack, not simply all negative levels acquired in general. However, I see now that my interpretation was a bit off..

[AzraelX]

I was simply under the impression that with the mention of Energy Drain, it was specifically making mention of the spell and monster special attack, not simply all negative levels acquired in general. However, I see now that my interpretation was a bit off..
Your interpretation isn't off, considering that's what it says verbatim. In the section "Energy Drain and Negative Levels", it starts off by talking about negative levels specifically caused by energy drain ["Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy"], but later on it starts describing other ways you can receive negative levels (such as coming back to life).

Additionally, there are other places in the CRB where negative levels and energy drain are mentioned as separate things, like another type of ward that states "Living creatures in this area are immune to all death effects, energy drain, and effects that cause negative levels". Obviously they wouldn't list "effects that cause negative levels" and "energy drain" as two different items if they were the same thing.

Energy drain always causes negative levels, but negative levels are not always caused by energy drain. There's nothing to suggest that's the case, and multiple things (some mentioned above) making it clear that's not the case. If you hear a banana is always a fruit, do you assume all fruits must be bananas? That flies in the face of all logic, and has no logical basis.

Why does the spell say it doesn't remove negative levels you already have? Because (1) it makes you immune to energy drain, which inflicts negative levels (but is not the only way to receive negative levels), and (2) it removes the penalties from negative levels for the duration.

Not that any of that would matter anyways, because the thrallherd suffers from a negative level for "48 hours following the loss of a thrall". It's the fact your thrall died within the last 48 hours that causes you to have a negative level; even if you hypothetically reinterpret the RAI until Death Ward somehow made you immune to all negative levels from all sources, you'd still receive the negative level as soon as Death Ward ended (assuming your thrall died less than 48 hours ago).

Not that that matters in this specific case, because it does not prevent negative levels, except those stopped indirectly as a result of preventing energy drains. If something did manage to stop this negative level, such as the ability I mentioned near the beginning, it would function as described above.

[Pippin]

If I'm going with thrallherd as my main PrC, I generally dip into a level of incarnate, followed by the soul manifester (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) PrC. There are soulmelds which boost telepathy powers, so make the most of them, and bind a psionic version of a metamagic rod (see the rules for making psionic items using psionic power versions of spells in the MIC) to your hands for a nice boost to your manifester level. Also see about crafting some psionic versions of the arcanist gloves (which are also in the MIC), since low level powers remain low level powers no matter how much you augment them.
That's an interesting PrC. May I ask what soulmelds you found interesting, because everything I read seemed okay-ish? I'm also not sure I understood how the metamagic rod thingy works. To me, you can only get a +1 bonus to ML out of it. That is, if you indeed use a rod to manifest a power.

I also have a more technical question. Let's suppose I go Psion 4/ Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 3 (+3 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 5/Soul Manifester 4 (+1 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 7/Soul Manifester 5 (+1 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 10. My ECL is 15. Can I take another 5 levels of Soul Manifester even though I'm already a 10th-level Thrallherd?

[Rubik]

That's an interesting PrC. May I ask what soulmelds you found interesting, because everything I read seemed okay-ish?There are a number of good soulmelds for improving skill use and for gaining abilities you normally couldn't. For instance, check the astral vambraces in the link I provided. That alone grants a fly speed, a swim speed, a trip attack, and a number of feats (without requiring prereqs). The psion's eyes soulmeld essentially grants at-will telepathic communication and sizable bonuses to several skills (as well as the ability to use those skills without ranks).

You could also go totemist 2 for soulmelds such as the blink shirt for at-will teleportation or the phase cloak for ethereal movement (which alone bypasses AoOs from movement and lets you move through walls whenever).

All are really good options, and they can be changed out daily.


I'm also not sure I understood how the metamagic rod thingy works. To me, you can only get a +1 bonus to ML out of it. That is, if you indeed use a rod to manifest a power.Yes. A +1 to your ML, which stacks with other ML boosters, such as an orange ioun stone, psionic arcanist gloves, and Overchannel. All four options grant a nice fat +7 to your ML by high levels. And if you add several metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod (as per the MIC), you can use that ML boost quite a few times per day.


I also have a more technical question. Let's suppose I go Psion 4/ Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 3 (+3 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 5/Soul Manifester 4 (+1 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 7/Soul Manifester 5 (+1 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 10. My ECL is 15. Can I take another 5 levels of Soul Manifester even though I'm already a 10th-level Thrallherd?Soul manifester only boosts the psion manifesting; it doesn't give any of the thrallherd's other abilities. So if you're trying to get at the idea that soul manifester gives you all the thrallherd's other abilities, it doesn't.

[Stegyre]

I also have a more technical question. Let's suppose I go Psion 4/ Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 3 (+3 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 5/Soul Manifester 4 (+1 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 7/Soul Manifester 5 (+1 to Thrallherd)/Thrallherd 10. My ECL is 15. Can I take another 5 levels of Soul Manifester even though I'm already a 10th-level Thrallherd?
I'm pretty sure you need to go at least Incarnate (or Totemist) 2 or take a 6th level feat before you can enter Soul Manifester: one of the requirements is the ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra.

[Pippin]

Soul manifester only boosts the psion manifesting; it doesn't give any of the thrallherd's other abilities. So if you're trying to get at the idea that soul manifester gives you all the thrallherd's other abilities, it doesn't.
Well I had that in mind. With the progression I submitted, I would "skip" the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th and 8th levels of Thrallherd, so I wouldn't gain the Psionic Charm class feature and that's it.

Thank you for the rest of your post I will look things up more closely.


I'm pretty sure you need to go at least Incarnate (or Totemist) 2 or take a 6th level feat before you can enter Soul Manifester: one of the requirements is the ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra.
Well Rubik mentioned only 1 level of Incarnate so I'm sure there's a trick for this ^^

[Rubik]

Well Rubik mentioned only 1 level of Incarnate so I'm sure there's a trick for this ^^A single instance of the Shape Soulmeld feat (I suggest taking it for phase cloak) and the Psionic Open Chakra power (since you're a manifester anyway) will let you qualify for soul manifester with just a single level of either incarnate or totemist.

Honestly, I find totemist 2 more fun, but that does eat your manifester levels. Maybe on a gestalt character?

[Pippin]

A single instance of the Shape Soulmeld feat (I suggest taking it for phase cloak) and the Psionic Open Chakra power (since you're a manifester anyway) will let you qualify for soul manifester with just a single level of either incarnate or totemist.

Honestly, I find totemist 2 more fun, but that does eat your manifester levels. Maybe on a gestalt character?
Yea, another non-psionic level and 9th-level powers would be out of your league.

Well anyway, I was about to edit my previous post with the following:


There are a number of good soulmelds for improving skill use and for gaining abilities you normally couldn't. For instance, check the astral vambraces in the link I provided. That alone grants a fly speed, a swim speed, a trip attack, and a number of feats (without requiring prereqs). The psion's eyes soulmeld essentially grants at-will telepathic communication and sizable bonuses to several skills (as well as the ability to use those skills without ranks).

You could also go totemist 2 for soulmelds such as the blink shirt for at-will teleportation or the phase cloak for ethereal movement (which alone bypasses AoOs from movement and lets you move through walls whenever).

All are really good options, and they can be changed out daily.
I noticed two soulmelds worth shaping, unfortunately they use the same slot (brow):


Charming Veil
Descriptor: None
Classes: Incarnate, soulborn
Chakra: Brow
Saving Throw: None

You create a wispy veil that sparkles in the slightest breeze, but seems to vanish in stillness. When you manifest a charm or compulsion power, tendrils of incarnum writhe and sparkle, enhancing the effects.

You can pull energy into your charm and compulsion powers, reinforcing the power with the power of incarnum. While worn, you gain a +1 insight bonus on the save DCs of your charm and compulsion powers and psi-like abilities.

Essentia: For every point of essentia you invest into your charming veil, you increase the save DC by +1.

Chakra Bind (Brow)

A dim silver glow emanates from your eyes. A brief flash, visible only to you, scans across your field of vision and periodically outlines creatures and objects while continually heightening your awareness.

When your charming veil is bound to your brow chakra, you can read thoughts as per the power once per round at will. You also gain an insight bonus on Sense Motive checks equal to the number of points of essentia invested in the veil to detect others under a charm or compulsion effect. You also gain this insight bonus on saving throws to resist charm and compulsion effects targeting you.


Psion's Eyes
Description: None
Classes: Incarnate
Chakra: Brow
Saving Throw: None

You shape incarnum into blue-green lensed spectacles. While perched on your nose, these spectacles give you peculiar visual acuity, heightening your sensitivity to psychic details while granting you insight into the meaning and significance of those details.

With this soulmeld, you summon forth soul energy from generations of psions to grant you acuity and psychic aptitude.

While you wear the psion's eyes, you gain a +4 insight bonus on Autohypnosis, Psicraft, and Use Psionic Device checks. The psion's eyes allow you to make these checks untrained.

Essentia: Every point of essentia you invest in your psion's eyes increases the insight bonus granted by +2.

Chakra Bind (Brow)

Instead of spectacles perched on your nose, your psion's eyes appear as a third eye embedded in your forehead, and its iris glows a rich azure blue.

You can use the mindlink power at will for the duration of this soulmeld.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Charming Veil is especially amazing o_O

An ECL20 Psion with 10 levels of Thrallherd and 10 levels of Soul Manifester, with the Overchannel and Practiced Manifester feats, could manifest Psionic Dominate with an initial cost of 1 PP, and augment it to 23 PP. The DC would be 10 + 4 (level of the power) + 11 (augmented via 22 additional PP) + 12 (Incarnate's essentia pool is 11 at level 11) + 9 (Psionic Distillation, which consumes another 17 PP) + Int. modifier. That's 46 + Int. modifier.

The only drawback is that Psionic Dominate has a duration of Concentration.

That's wrong indeed. A soulmeld can't receive more than 4 points of essentia.


Yes. A +1 to your ML, which stacks with other ML boosters, such as an orange ioun stone, psionic arcanist gloves, and Overchannel. All four options grant a nice fat +7 to your ML by high levels. And if you add several metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod (as per the MIC), you can use that ML boost quite a few times per day.
I still don't find this too broken. Arcanist's gloves work with 1st-level powers and you'd need to use a rod to get additional +1s.

[Rubik]

Yea, another non-psionic level and 9th-level powers would be out of your league.If you want it, go for it, though you don't get much out of it, considering you can gain additional soulmelds via the Shape Soulmeld feat and then PsyRef'ing them out, as the soulmelds remain shaped until unshaped. The only binds you can't get via the Psionic Open Chakra power are totem, heart, and soul, so the extra levels of incarnate are kind of a waste.


I noticed two soulmelds worth shaping, unfortunately they use the same slot (brow):The Double Chakra feat allows you to bind both. Being a dvati does, as well.






Correct me if I'm wrong, but Charming Veil is especially amazing o_OQuite.


An ECL20 Psion with 10 levels of Thrallherd and 10 levels of Soul ManifesterCan't be done without gestalt, since you need levels in a manifesting class to qualify for both of them.


with the Overchannel and Practiced Manifester featsPracticed Manifester is all fine and good, but again, you can't have 10 levels of both thrallherd and soul manifester prior to epic levels without gestalt, and you'd need a minimum of one level of a meldshaping class to get the most out of soul manifester (and to save quite a few feats, besides).


could manifest Psionic Dominate with an initial cost of 1 PP, and augment it to 23 PP. The DC would be 10 + 4 (level of the power) + 11 (augmented via 22 additional PP) + 12 (Incarnate's essentia pool is 11 at level 11) + 9 (Psionic Distillation, which consumes another 17 PP) + Int. modifier. That's 46 + Int. modifier.Yes, it's quite, quite nice.


The only drawback is that Psionic Dominate has a duration of Concentration.I believe Complete Psionic has extra augments for certain powers, including Psionic Dominate.


I still don't find this too broken. Arcanist's gloves work with 1st-level powers and you'd need to use a rod to get additional +1s.Some of the best powers in the game are 1st level, such as Astral Construct. Augmenting them doesn't change their level. And metapsionic rods are really, really good to have, since they allow you to break psionic focus and pp caps for metapsionic feats. Just add the abilities of several rods onto your arcanist gloves and abuse the heck out of them.

[Pippin]

Can't be done without gestalt, since you need levels in a manifesting class to qualify for both of them.

Practiced Manifester is all fine and good, but again, you can't have 10 levels of both thrallherd and soul manifester prior to epic levels without gestalt, and you'd need a minimum of one level of a meldshaping class to get the most out of soul manifester (and to save quite a few feats, besides).
I've always believed that dual-casting PrCs stacked with other casting PrCs. Is this wrong?

Manifesting: At each soul manifester level, you gain additional power points per day and access to new powers as if you also gained a level in any one manifesting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit you would have gained (bonus metamagic, metapsionic, or item creation feats, psicrystal special abilities, and so on). If you had more than one manifesting class before becoming a soul manifester, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining power points per day, manifester level, and powers known.
If you go Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 1, Psion and Thrallherd are two "manifesting class[es] to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level" so I don't understand why you couldn't stack your Soul Manifester levels with your Thrallherd levels :smallsigh:

[ExLibrisMortis]

You said:

An ECL20 Psion with 10 levels of Thrallherd and 10 levels of Soul Manifester [...]
That's not possible. You have to be ECL 25.

[Rubik]

I've always believed that dual-casting PrCs stacked with other casting PrCs. Is this wrong?

Manifesting: At each soul manifester level, you gain additional power points per day and access to new powers as if you also gained a level in any one manifesting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit you would have gained (bonus metamagic, metapsionic, or item creation feats, psicrystal special abilities, and so on). If you had more than one manifesting class before becoming a soul manifester, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining power points per day, manifester level, and powers known.
If you go Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 1, Psion and Thrallherd are two "manifesting class[es] to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level" so I don't understand why you couldn't stack your Soul Manifester levels with your Thrallherd levels :smallsigh:Casting and manifesting PrCs don't double-stack. Soul manifester could be used to progress a level of thrallherd manifesting, but since thrallherd manifesting is psion manifesting, that's what soul manifester would give you.

[Pippin]

I googled this and found that (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/60305/can-you-chain-prestige-classes/60337):


Yes, prestige classes can be progressed by other prestige classes

Simply said, nothing says you can’t. No prestige class (to my knowledge) specifies base class for this kind of thing.

But the chosen prestige class has to have the feature that the second advances

I also have a vague remembrance of a post somewhere in the Wizard / Sorcerer competition thread (or some other thread) that said likewise, and nobody begged to differ at that time.

[Rubik]

I also have a vague remembrance of a post somewhere in the Wizard / Sorcerer competition thread (or some other thread) that said likewise, and nobody begged to differ at that time.Yep. Entirely true. Soul manifester progresses the thrallherd's "+1 level of existing manifesting class" class feature. What does that feature do? It grants "+1 level of existing manifesting class." That means a level in soul manifester grants a manifester level from thrallherd, which grants a single level of (in this case) psion manifesting.

X = 1 = 1, not X = 1 + 1.

[Segev]

Classes which advance casting and manifesting only advance your CL/ML and add spell slots/power points/[spells/powers] known. They do not advance your other class features unless they explicitly say they do. Nor can you "skip" levels of a PrC with them.

If you are a Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 10/Thrallherd 4, you are ECL 20, you have ML 19, you have 11 "effective" levels of Incarnate for purposes of soulmelds shaped, and you count 5 levels of Thrallherd for purposes of calculating your Leadership-like score. Not 10, and not 15. You also have the class features of a 5th level Thrallherd; you do not have two Thralls.

Not unless Soul Manifester says it advances all class features of the underlying psionic class.

[Pippin]

Yep. Entirely true. Soul manifester progresses the thrallherd's "+1 level of existing manifesting class" class feature. What does that feature do? It grants "+1 level of existing manifesting class." That means a level in soul manifester grants a manifester level from thrallherd, which grants a single level of (in this case) psion manifesting.

X = 1 = 1, not X = 1 + 1.
There must be something I don't understand, because I'm totally okay with this post. When you gain an additional level of Thrallherd via the Soul Manifester PrC, you add that level to your Psion class, just like you'd do if you had "really" gained a level of Thrallherd.

So, Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 1 is - the way I see it - equivalent to Psion 4/Incarnate 2/Thrallherd 2. (Only, you don't get the Chakra bind (crown) feature Incarnates get at second level. Fortunately for you, Thrallherds don't get anything at second level.) Which is as if you had 5 levels of Psion.

Should you gain two more levels of Soul Manifester (going from ECL 7 to ECL 9), that would be equivalent to Psion 4/Incarnate 4/Thrallherd 4 (which is as if you had 7 levels of Psion). Only, you wouldn't get the 3rd and 4th level class features of the Incarnate class, nor the Psionic Charm class feature Thrallherds get at 3rd level.

And then, when you gain your 10th character level, there's nothing - the way I see it - preventing you from adding that level to your Thrallherd PrC. Your character would be Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 3/Thrallherd 5.

I'm sorry if I didn't get your point. To me you're only insisting on the fact that Soul Manifesters don't get the other classes' class features, which is something I understood and tried to work around (TO).

Edit: If what you meant was: "the level you add to Thrallherd is automatically transfered to Psion without increasing your level of Thrallherd" then I don't understand why that would be. That doesn't make sense to me.

[Rubik]

There must be something I don't understand, because I'm totally okay with this post. When you gain an additional level of Thrallherd via the Soul Manifester PrC, you add that level to your Psion class, just like you'd do if you had "really" gained a level of Thrallherd.

So, Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 1 is - the way I see it - equivalent to Psion 4/Incarnate 2/Thrallherd 2. (Only, you don't get the Chakra bind (crown) feature Incarnates get at second level. Fortunately for you, Thrallherds don't get anything at second level.) Which is as if you had 5 levels of Psion.

Should you gain two more levels of Soul Manifester (going from ECL 7 to ECL 9), that would be equivalent to Psion 4/Incarnate 4/Thrallherd 4 (which is as if you had 7 levels of Psion). Only, you wouldn't get the 3rd and 4th level class features of the Incarnate class, nor the Psionic Charm class feature Thrallherds get at 3rd level.

And then, when you gain your 10th character level, there's nothing - the way I see it - preventing you from adding that level to your Thrallherd PrC. Your character would be Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 1/Soul Manifester 3/Thrallherd 5.

I'm sorry if I didn't get your point. To me you're only insisting on the fact that Soul Manifesters don't get the other classes' class features, which is something I understood and tried to work around (TO).

Edit: If what you meant was: "the level you add to Thrallherd is automatically transfered to Psion without increasing your level of Thrallherd" then I don't understand why that would be. That doesn't make sense to me.My point is that a psion 4/incarnate 1/thrallherd 1/soul manifester X never increases your thrallherd level in anything but manifester level, powers known, and power points, so even if you finished with soul manifester 10 with an additional 4 levels of thrallherd, you only count as thrallherd 5, with all the additions from soul manifester only applying to manifester level. It doesn't matter whether your soul manifester levels apply to MLs gained as thrallherd or as psion, as both applications are identical.

No TO involved.

[Pippin]

My point is that a psion 4/incarnate 1/thrallherd 1/soul manifester X never increases your thrallherd level in anything but manifester level, powers known, and power points, so even if you finished with soul manifester 10 with an additional 4 levels of thrallherd, you only count as thrallherd 5, with all the additions from soul manifester only applying to manifester level. It doesn't matter whether your soul manifester levels apply to MLs gained as thrallherd or as psion, as both applications are identical.

No TO involved.
Does that mean that, if I go Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 10, then add my next level to Psion, I would get a bonus feat? (No Soul Manifester involved.)

[Red Fel]

Does that mean that, if I go Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Thrallherd 10, then add my next level to Psion, I would get a bonus feat?

Yes, because you would have taken your 5th level of Psion. At Psion 5, you receive a bonus feat.

It would also, obviously, advance your Psion manifester level, powers known, etc.

[Pippin]

Yes, because you would have taken your 5th level of Psion. At Psion 5, you receive a bonus feat.

It would also, obviously, advance your Psion manifester level, powers known, etc.
Alright I get it now. I hope everyone will forgive my brain for being too slow :smallsigh:

[Segev]

Yeah, entering a PrC is just a form of multi-classing. It's little different than how taking Psion 4/Incarnate 1/Psion 1 gives you a bonus feat on that fifth Psion level.

It might help to think of class levels as menu items. Each time you take a level in the class, you gain the items listed on that row, no matter what ECL you are when you take them.

The only way to "skip" a feature of a level while still going on to take more levels in the class later is through "alternate class features." PF is very fond of those.

[Stegyre]

A single instance of the Shape Soulmeld feat (I suggest taking it for phase cloak) and the Psionic Open Chakra power (since you're a manifester anyway) will let you qualify for soul manifester with just a single level of either incarnate or totemist.
Yes and no. Psionic Open Chakra is a 4th level power, so you'll need at least Psion 7 to be able to manifest it yourself. Absent that, it is doubtful you meet the prerequisite "ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra." (Someone else manifesting it upon you arguably would not qualify, plus you have the daily problem of no longer meeting the PrC prerequisites.)

[Rubik]

Yes and no. Psionic Open Chakra is a 4th level power, so you'll need at least Psion 7 to be able to manifest it yourself. Absent that, it is doubtful you meet the prerequisite "ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra." (Someone else manifesting it upon you arguably would not qualify, plus you have the daily problem of no longer meeting the PrC prerequisites.)Psion 7 or psion 4/thrallherd 4 or ardent 2/X 4/ardent 1 with Practiced Manifester or a psion with Overchannel and the money to pay for a manifestation of Psychic Chirurgery or a psion with access to a power stone of Psionic Open Chakra or any number of other things that I'm sure we can think of.

Though you do raise a point there.

[Stegyre]

Psion 7 or psion 4/thrallherd 4 or ardent 2/X 4/ardent 1 with Practiced Manifester or a psion with Overchannel and the money to pay for a manifestation of Psychic Chirurgery or a psion with access to a power stone of Psionic Open Chakra or any number of other things that I'm sure we can think of.

Though you do raise a point there.
WBL and ML are both going to prevent the Psychic Chirurgery option until an easier alternative (e.g. Psion 7) moots it, and I'm not seeing the relevance of Overchannel, as the issue will be with reaching a class level that allows learning POC. (Might work with an agreeable GM and Ardent, but not with Psion or any other psionic class I'm aware of.)

Power Stones have the same basic issue of hiring someone else to manifest it on you, unless you're offering the argument that possessing a power stone of POC constitutes the ability to bind to a chakra. (That's technically correct, at least on some level. I just can't see getting away with it outside of TO.)

Question is, what's the goal?

This is not an early-entry trick, because the skill level requirement would make that moot anyway. The point seems to be preserving Psion ML, as that's what you get over the entirely-uncontroversial Psion 3 / Incarnate-or-Totemist 2.

But if that's the case, why dip Thrallherd and lose another ML, when the only real benefit you are gaining is a variant of Leadership? It looks like you're trading ML for a feat -- a brokenly good feat, to be sure, but one you could instead get by spending . . . a feat.

Psionics are great. Incarnum is great. Soulmanifester is great. Thrallherd seems like it is abusably fun. I'm just not sure the thinking is clear on what we want to do and how we're going about it. (For example, another point missed is that Thrallherd requires ML 5. We can get around that at Psion 4 / Incarnate 1 with Practiced Manifester and later Psychic Reformation it away, but that's an additional cost, and in any playable build, it will need to be accounted for.)

[Pippin]

But if that's the case, why dip Thrallherd and lose another ML, when the only real benefit you are gaining is a variant of Leadership? It looks like you're trading ML for a feat -- a brokenly good feat, to be sure, but one you could instead get by spending . . . a feat.
I wouldn't say Thrallherd 1 is exchangeable with Leadership though, the one-day delay for any replacement really makes a difference.

It's funny you bring that up because that's what I've been pondering today. I realized that there's little point in taking more than 1 level of Thrallherd. The class features from level 2 to 9 are disappointingly light, and the second thrall isn't worth spending 9 levels (45% of the build) on it. If I need several thralls, I'll just make sure to Psionic Charm or Psionic Dominate my thrall before dismissing it and hiring another one the following day :smallsmile:

Also, sparing 9 levels makes room for the Constructor PrC ^^

[AGrinningCat]

Is this the place to discuss the moral implications of Thralls?

[Stegyre]

I wouldn't say Thrallherd 1 is exchangeable with Leadership though, the one-day delay for any replacement really makes a difference.

It's funny you bring that up because that's what I've been pondering today. I realized that there's little point in taking more than 1 level of Thrallherd. The class features from level 2 to 9 are disappointingly light, and the second thrall isn't worth spending 9 levels (45% of the build) on it. If I need several thralls, I'll just make sure to Psionic Charm or Psionic Dominate my thrall before dismissing it and hiring another one the following day :smallsmile:

Also, sparing 9 levels makes room for the Constructor PrC ^^
I just come back to my previous question: what's the goal here?

For example, you would want very different builds if you were making a character you would actually play from level 1 to 20 than for one you were creating specifically for an epic campaign or one that was taking a 9-12 level adventure path.

What is it you are trying to do?

[Pippin]

I just come back to my previous question: what's the goal here?

For example, you would want very different builds if you were making a character you would actually play from level 1 to 20 than for one you were creating specifically for an epic campaign or one that was taking a 9-12 level adventure path.

What is it you are trying to do?
Honestly, I'm just looking at ways to make Psions very good before Epic. I'm not planning on building a character for a campaign, competition or whatever.


Is this the place to discuss the moral implications of Thralls?
Not necessarily but that sounds like an interesting topic.

[Stegyre]

Honestly, I'm just looking at ways to make Psions very good before Epic. I'm not planning on building a character for a campaign, competition or whatever.
In that case, consider how taking Thrallherd 1 instead of Leadership-plus-another-class-level is better (however you choose to define "better"). Yes, Thrallherd gives you more readily-abusable (and replaceable) followers, but is that improvement worth, say, the improvement between Psion 17 and Psion 18? (30 pp, a further bump in bonus pp from the ML increase, and 2 powers up to 9th level)

Also note that, in your case, when you take the Thrallherd level is irrelevant. If you were actually playing this character, it could make a major difference whether you get a thrall and followers at character level 6 or not until 16, but as a hypothetical, it makes no difference at all.

[Pippin]

In that case, consider how taking Thrallherd 1 instead of Leadership-plus-another-class-level is better (however you choose to define "better"). Yes, Thrallherd gives you more readily-abusable (and replaceable) followers, but is that improvement worth, say, the improvement between Psion 17 and Psion 18? (30 pp, a further bump in bonus pp from the ML increase, and 2 powers up to 9th level)
The additional PP aren't important if you're planning to play with a million PP, or the maximum amount at all times. The ML increase isn't important either, because Practiced Manifester, and the bonus powers are meaningless if your goal is to know all powers in the game thanks to friendly, charmed or dominated Erudites.

Welcome to TO :smallbiggrin:

[Stegyre]

The additional PP aren't important if you're planning to play with a million PP, or the maximum amount at all times. The ML increase isn't important either, because Practiced Manifester, and the bonus powers are meaningless if your goal is to know all powers in the game thanks to friendly, charmed or dominated Erudites.

Welcome to TO :smallbiggrin:
And so too, then, are the thralls and believers.

This is why TO is not really an interesting subject. It boils down to an exploration of WotC's poor editing and quality control.

[Pippin]

I was wondering: if you decide to hire a level 8 Wizard as a thrall, would you be allowed to decide what his ability scores are too? (Using the same system you used for your own level 1 character: point-buy, elite, etc.)

[Red Fel]

I was wondering: if you decide to hire a level 8 Wizard as a thrall, would you be allowed to decide what his ability scores are too? (Using the same system you used for your own level 1 character: point-buy, elite, etc.)

Pretty sure that NPC followers/believers/etc. use a standard array, as opposed to point-buy or elite. Let me find a citation... Here it is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#noneliteArray):


The nonelite array is: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class.

Basically, that's the ability score array I would use.

[Pippin]

Pretty sure that NPC followers/believers/etc. use a standard array, as opposed to point-buy or elite. Let me find a citation... Here it is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#noneliteArray):

Basically, that's the ability score array I would use.
Thank you.

A question that hasn't been addressed yet I think: the table pertaining to the Leadership score shows the maximum level at which you hire your thrall(s) and believer(s). There's nothing in the description that would prevent them from gaining additional levels after you hired them, is there?

I'm asking this because it seems unlikely that an ECL 17 Wyrm Wizard has any non-Wiz/Sor 9th-level spells.

[Mehangel]

Thank you.

A question that hasn't been addressed yet I think: the table pertaining to the Leadership score shows the maximum level at which you hire your thrall(s) and believer(s). There's nothing in the description that would prevent them from gaining additional levels after you hired them, is there?

I'm asking this because it seems unlikely that an ECL 17 Wyrm Wizard has any non-Wiz/Sor 9th-level spells.

I have often ruled, or had ruled that the followers can gain levels after acquired, but them being limited to only NPC classes makes the standard means of acquiring experience rather difficult. In addition, if this was the leadership feat and not thrallherd, if you sent out followers out to adventure or complete quests, and should any of them die. I would consider you responsible for their deaths, and thus take the penalty associated with it..

[Segev]

As a Thrallherd, if your Believers or Thralls level up beyond the listed points in your table for your "Leadership" score, I'd say their minds have gotten too strong for you to keep enthralled (unless you had a position to which to "promote" them that was empty on your roster). You lose them, and new ones arrive.

With Leadership, I'd rule similarly; they feel there aren't enough opportunities for advancement in your organization to stick around. They might still really like you, but they're striking out on their own or devoting themselves to a following which can better use their skills. You just don't have the charisma, influence, and reputation to make them feel the competition with others of their level for your attention and interest is worth that level of devoted effort.

[Pippin]

As a Thrallherd, if your Believers or Thralls level up beyond the listed points in your table for your "Leadership" score, I'd say their minds have gotten too strong for you to keep enthralled (unless you had a position to which to "promote" them that was empty on your roster). You lose them, and new ones arrive.

With Leadership, I'd rule similarly; they feel there aren't enough opportunities for advancement in your organization to stick around. They might still really like you, but they're striking out on their own or devoting themselves to a following which can better use their skills. You just don't have the charisma, influence, and reputation to make them feel the competition with others of their level for your attention and interest is worth that level of devoted effort.
Oh, good, so it's possible for them to level up. I would suppose that Psionic Charm or Psionic Dominate should help them stay around afterward :smallsmile:

[Segev]

Oh, good, so it's possible for them to level up. I would suppose that Psionic Charm or Psionic Dominate should help them stay around afterward :smallsmile:Sure! Those don't have caps, anyway.

Except hte constant need to re-invest in the pp expenditure.

Which DOES provide a limit...eventually.

[Urpriest]

Pretty sure that NPC followers/believers/etc. use a standard array, as opposed to point-buy or elite. Let me find a citation... Here it is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#noneliteArray):



Basically, that's the ability score array I would use.

That's the array for characters with an NPC class. Characters with a PC class use the elite array. But yeah, you definitely don't use point-buy or roll.

[Pippin]

Sure! Those don't have caps, anyway.

Except hte constant need to re-invest in the pp expenditure.

Which DOES provide a limit...eventually.
What are you talking about? Both powers can be augmented to have a duration of 1 day/level :smalltongue:

[Segev]

What are you talking about? Both powers can be augmented to have a duration of 1 day/level :smalltongue:The :P face makes me think you're aware of this, but just in case...

That's still, technically, a limit. Eventually, you'll reach a point where you're renewing so many Psionic Charms every day that it's impacting your pp reserve for adventuring.

Assuming a 7th level manifester (just arbitrarily chosen), and using this on humanoid ex-believers, you'd be spending 5pp/day if you were maintaining 7 of them. 10 pp/day for 14 of them.

So yeah. That's a "serious" limit. Because you totally can't do something with 7+ charmed buddies that you would be better spending 5 pp on that day.

[Pippin]

The :P face makes me think you're aware of this, but just in case...

That's still, technically, a limit. Eventually, you'll reach a point where you're renewing so many Psionic Charms every day that it's impacting your pp reserve for adventuring.

Assuming a 7th level manifester (just arbitrarily chosen), and using this on humanoid ex-believers, you'd be spending 5pp/day if you were maintaining 7 of them. 10 pp/day for 14 of them.

So yeah. That's a "serious" limit. Because you totally can't do something with 7+ charmed buddies that you would be better spending 5 pp on that day.
Oh okay, I didn't have that level of optimization in mind. I was "just" thinking about having an ECL18 Wyrm Wizard and an ECL18 CStP Erudite for the usual shenanigans. I don't actually plan to use minions in combat.

[Segev]

Assuming your own ML is 18, for 17 pp every 18 days, you could psionic dominate both of them with a single manifestation of the power. (7 base, 4 for affecting a dragon, 2 for an additional target, 4 for 1 day/ML)

That's actually quite affordable. Get them as thralls at first, then dominate them while you can order them to fail the save, then force them to fail the save every time. (Save is DC 19 if they don't voluntarily save.)