Player suggested homebrew sniper-y Prestige Class

[SalterisSolaris]

In one of our long-running 3.5e campaigns, a player had suggested a homebrew prestige class for his ranger, which (to me) seems to be mostly a mashup between a Scout and a dw sniper, plus a bit of creative thinking.

Mind, even I can tell that it's kind of... mixed. However, note that our level10 5-man group is (among other things) already sporting a ruby knight vindicator and an incantator. So admittedly we're not exactly a bunch of choir boys on the overall power scale.

Seen in that light, what do think of his suggestion?
Anything glaring that would need an objection?

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Deepforest Ambusher
Hit Die: d8.

REQUIREMENTS

To qualify to become a deepforest ambusher, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks.
Feats: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow or crossbow).

Fort Ref Will
Lvl BAB Save Save Save Special
1 +1 +2 +2 +0 Take aim, range increment bonus +10 ft./level
2 +2 +3 +3 +0 Hide in plain sight, trapfinding
3 +3 +3 +3 +1 Bonus feat
4 +4 +4 +4 +1 Improved Critical
5 +5 +5 +4 +1 Weapon specialization
6 +6 +6 +5 +2 Bonus feat, Trackless Step
7 +7 +7 +5 +2 Camouflage
8 +8 +8 +6 +2 Evasion
9 +9 +9 +6 +3 Bonus feat
10 +10 +7 +7 +3 Greater Critical

CLASS SKILLS

The deepforest ambusher’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier.

CLASS FEATURES

All of the following are features of the deepforest ambusher prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: deepforest ambushers gain no new weapon or armor proficiencies.

Take Aim (Ex): A deepforest ambusher can give a number of possible attacks each round for aiming. Each round spent for aiming and/or the subsequent attack must be used with a full attack action. Only free/swift actions that do not otherwise interfere with aiming (e.g. casting even quickened spells with somatic component obviously interferes with concentrated aiming, speaking a few short sentences does not), can be performed between the first aiming action and the corresponding attack. A 5 ft. step is also not allowed. Each attack given up for aiming in this manner adds +2 to the attack bonus and 1d6+2 to damage. The number of attacks that improve the final attack in this manner is limited to (Wis bonus + PrC level) per day. Aim can be held longer (e.g. more attacks given up, but these do not improve the attack any more, e.g. readying or waiting for the best opportunity). The attack occurs at the highest BAB. The target must be flat-footed and not moving faster than 40 ft. per rounds. Each ambusher level counts like two rogue levels for overcoming (improved) uncanny dodge. Damage due to critical hits is applied only once. Attacks still available in a full attack action after the aimed attack can be used as normal.
Example: A deepforest ambusher has two possible attacks in a round with a full attack action, one at BAB 10 and one at BAB 5. She gives up 2 attacks for aiming and before actually attacking (with the third consecutive attack). This requires two rounds of full attack actions. The attack is then done at an attack bonus of 14 (plus other modificators e.g. for magic weapons) and an additional damage due to aiming of 2d6+4. After this attack one more normal attack is possible during the second round's full attack action at an attack bonus of 5.

Range Increment Bonus (Ex): With each class level the deepforest ambusher gains, the range increment of her projectile weapons increase by +10 feet (added after all multipliers).

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a deepforest ambusher can use the Hide skill in natural terrain even while being observed. See the ranger class feature, page 48 of the Player’s Handbook. A scout loses this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Trapfinding (Ex): A deepforest ambusher of 2nd level or higher can use the Search skill to locate traps with a DC higher than 20, and she can use Disable Device to bypass a trap or disarm magic traps. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player’s Handbook.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level the deepforest ambusher gains a bonus feat, selected from the following list: Able ambusher, Alertness, Crossbow ambusher, Deadeye Shot, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Penetrating Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Reconnoiter, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, Ranged Weapon Mastery, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Sharp-Shooting, Shot on the Run, and Stealthy. She must still meet the prerequisites as normal. She gains an additional bonus feat at 6th and 9th levels.

Improved Critical (Ex): At 4th level, the deepforest ambusher gains the Improved Critical feat. This feat must be applied to the bow or crossbow for which she has taken the Weapon Focus Feat. She gains this feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Weapon Specialization: A deepforest ambusher of 5th level or higher gains Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat. It must be applied to a bow or crossbow with which the ambusher has taken the Weapon Focus feat. She gains this feat even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Trackless Step (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, a deepforest ambusher cannot be tracked in natural surroundings. See the druid class feature, page 36 of the Player’s Handbook.

Camouflage (Ex): A deepforest ambusher of 7th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Evasion (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, a deepforest ambusher can avoid damage from certain attacks with a successful Reflex save. See the monk class feature, page 41 of the Player’s Handbook. If a character already has Evasion from a second class, the character automatically gains Improved Evasion instead.

Greater Critical (Ex): At 10th level, the threat range of her bow or crossbow becomes triple its original value. So a crossbow's critical would become 15-20x2, and a bow's would become 18-20x3. This ability is applied to the bow or crossbow with which she gained the Improved Critical feat for at 2nd level. This overlaps the increased threat range provided by Improved Critical and does not stack with it, nor does it stack with the Keen ability.

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So far, looking at this, I feel like the Hide in Plain sight might come a bit early (effectively at L12, when a normal scout only gets it at L14 after plenty of nothing)... which would allow repeated uses of that aiming/sniping feature per combat.... hm.

Anyway, what do you think?

[Karl Aegis]

What is a full attack action? It isn't clear in the monk entry, isn't clear here and isn't defined anywhere. You need clearer language so you don't get interpretations like, "Monk's can't use flurry of blows on a pounce."

[Hiro Quester]

Take Aim (Ex): A deepforest ambusher can give a number of possible attacks each round for aiming. Each round spent for aiming and/or the subsequent attack must be used with a full attack action. Only free/swift actions that do not otherwise interfere with aiming (e.g. casting even quickened spells with somatic component obviously interferes with concentrated aiming, speaking a few short sentences does not), can be performed between the first aiming action and the corresponding attack. A 5 ft. step is also not allowed. Each attack given up for aiming in this manner adds +2 to the attack bonus and 1d6+2 to damage. The number of attacks that improve the final attack in this manner is limited to (Wis bonus + PrC level) per day. Aim can be held longer (e.g. more attacks given up, but these do not improve the attack any more, e.g. readying or waiting for the best opportunity).

That sounds a bit overpowered, for a PrC that could begin at 5th level.

In theory with a +3 bonus to Wis, that would be giving the character at first level the possibility of forgoing four attacks for an extra +8 to attack, plus 4d6+8 to one attack.

If this is an ambush situation (e.g. hiding up a tree, waiting), and not in the middle of melee, the PC could theoretically hold off for this huge bonus each time. In melee, when other party members are taking actions, forgoing attacks for a bonus (to have a better chance f hitting with this crucial attack) seems reasonable.

But this seems a big bonus for an ambush's first attack. Particularly with a potential ten levels. Even at his current level 10 (i ntheory, a PC could have 5 in this PrC)? plus a +3 to wisdom, then forgoing eight attacks would give a +16 to hit, plus 8d6+16 damage, in addition to his regular attack and damage.

It would seem reasonable to put a limit on the number of rounds per attack, as well as the number per day. e.g. no more than half the daily allowance can be used in any single attack.

And if he's already at level 10, maybe make the minimum BAB prerequisite 10, rather than 5.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I suggest looking at the targeteer fighter variant (Dragon magazine #310). It has a class feature that allows you to give up iterative attacks to increase the threat range of your attack.

For example, with 16 bab, you can give up three out of four attacks on a full attack, to make one attack at +16, with a threat range that is 3 bigger than normal (so 20/x3 becomes 17-20/x3, or if you have 17-20/x2 , it becomes 14-20/x2). Adding another +1 to hit and damage per attack given up would be pretty fair, sniping archery is hard enough as-is. I would not allow anyone to carry over sacrificed attacks from one round to the next, though.

If +3 threat range doesn't seem that great (since you already have 12-20 with a crossbow and greater critical), you can apply it before improved critical/greater critical multiplies threat range. In that case, you could get as high as 6-20/x2 for a crossbow, or 9-20/x3 for a bow. That pretty heavily favours the bow, of course. It's a 60% (well, 12/19 hits, since you always miss on a 1) chance of triple damage, or 75% (15/19) chance of double.

You can also flat-out increase bows and crossbows to 17-20/x3 with the greater critical ability. Crossbows get that extra multiplier, bows get that extra threat range.

If you want an advantage to preparation, have a look at the assassin's death attack ability.

[Sacrieur]

Seems like a mish-mash of a bunch of things. First glance suggests it's underpowered rather than overpowered.


Take Aim (Ex): A deepforest ambusher can give a number of possible attacks each round for aiming. Each round spent for aiming and/or the subsequent attack must be used with a full attack action. Only free/swift actions that do not otherwise interfere with aiming (e.g. casting even quickened spells with somatic component obviously interferes with concentrated aiming, speaking a few short sentences does not), can be performed between the first aiming action and the corresponding attack. A 5 ft. step is also not allowed. Each attack given up for aiming in this manner adds +2 to the attack bonus and 1d6+2 to damage. The number of attacks that improve the final attack in this manner is limited to (Wis bonus + PrC level) per day. Aim can be held longer (e.g. more attacks given up, but these do not improve the attack any more, e.g. readying or waiting for the best opportunity). The attack occurs at the highest BAB. The target must be flat-footed and not moving faster than 40 ft. per rounds. Each ambusher level counts like two rogue levels for overcoming (improved) uncanny dodge. Damage due to critical hits is applied only once. Attacks still available in a full attack action after the aimed attack can be used as normal.

This is written poorly, I suggest a complete rework:

Take Aim (Ex): As a swift action, a deepforest ambusher may add his Wis modifier as an insight bonus to all ranged attacks he makes. This effect ends if he uses a movement action.

Other notes:

Not sure why he's focusing with a single weapon. Weapon specialization is pretty much useless and one of the worst feats in the game. I'm not sure what about the class means he should specialize.

There's no mesh with sneak attack, despite the class screaming for it to work with sneak attack. It should have sneak attack progression and the ability to use sneak attack at a range as a standard action.

Why trapfinding?

About camouflage: screw that. Just give him some concealment bonus or something. Not even sure why this is a thing if he gets hide in plain sight at level 2.

Greater Critical: *yawn* it's weak for a capstone. Doesn't even stack with anything but improved critical and can only be used by one type of ranged weapon.

[Trasilor]

Seems like a mish-mash of a bunch of things. First glance suggests it's underpowered rather than overpowered.



This is written poorly, I suggest a complete rework:

Take Aim (Ex): As a swift action, a deepforest ambusher may add his Wis modifier as an insight bonus to all ranged attacks he makes. This effect ends if he uses a movement action.

Other notes:

Not sure why he's focusing with a single weapon. Weapon specialization is pretty much useless and one of the worst feats in the game. I'm not sure what about the class means he should specialize.

There's no mesh with sneak attack, despite the class screaming for it to work with sneak attack. It should have sneak attack progression and the ability to use sneak attack at a range as a standard action.

Why trapfinding?

About camouflage: screw that. Just give him some concealment bonus or something. Not even sure why this is a thing if he gets hide in plain sight at level 2.

Greater Critical: *yawn* it's weak for a capstone. Doesn't even stack with anything but improved critical and can only be used by one type of ranged weapon.

I agree with most of this, but think this prestige class is even worse than that.

Remember, the class begins at level 6, which means that 2nd level ability is really a 7th level class ability, not a second level class ability. When viewed in that vein, many of the class features are even worse.

Archery does not get much love in 3.5 and this is no exception.

Perhaps, give it more abilities that stack with either ranger or rogue (or whatever base class you had in mind) such as sneak attack or favored enemy. That or make it a base class (most of these abilities are base class abilities anyway - bonus feats, evasion, trapfinding, etc) nothing about the special abilities stand out as 12, 13 or 14th level abilities. For comparative purposes, look to martial adapts at the same level). If you are comparing to a fighter - then your benchmark is too low.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Yeah...I'm going to join the chorus of "this seems pretty weak to me." It just doesn't DO much aside from sacrifice attacks for a piddling damage bonus.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, this is pretty laughably weak. Especially with your group containing a RKV and an Incantatrix.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Some suggested fixes (and a rough framework to build the rest of a class around). It's still probably on the weaker side (due to being less versatile than most things), but it's overall balance point is probably higher, and it can use its tricks more reliably.

Still needs quite a few abilities to flesh it out...and maybe a "refresh-on-kill" or something for Uncanny Aim.


1: Hunter's Focus, Careful Shot (3)
2: Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Aim (1/encounter)
3: Trackless Step, Powerful Shot
4: ???
5: Careful Shot (5), ???
6: Uncanny Aim (2/encounter), ???
7: Camouflage, ???
8: Endless Flight
9: Careful Shot (7), ???
10: Uncanny Aim (3/encounter), ???

???: Probably add another ability here.

Hunter’s Focus (Ex): As a full-round action a Deadeye Archer or 1st level or higher may mark a target within her line of sight. She adds her Wisdom modifier to her ranged attack rolls and ranged damage rolls against that target until she marks a new target or loses line of sight to her mark.

Careful Shot (Ex): As a standard action, a Deadeye Archer may make a single ranged attack against a marked target. If the attack the Deadeye Archer deals 3 bonus damage per Ranger, Scout, Rogue, or Deadeye Archer class level she possesses. At 5th level this increases to 5 bonus damage per class level, and at 9th level it increases to 7 bonus damage per class level. A target struck by this attack is no longer considered marked (although the attack roll and damage roll bonuses applied by Hunter’s Focus still apply to this attack).

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a Deadeye Archer can use the Hide skill in natural terrain even while being observed. See the ranger class feature, page 48 of the Player’s Handbook. A Deadeye Archer loses this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Powerful Shot (Ex): Before making a ranged attack roll, a Deadeye Archer or 3rd level or higher may choose to take a penalty on the attack roll, up to a maximum amount equal to her Base Attack Bonus. For every -1 penalty she accept she deals +2 additional damage if the attack hits.

Uncanny Aim (Ex): Once per encounter a Deadeye Archer may mark a target as a Swift action instead of a full-round action. She may use this ability an additional time per encounter at 6th and 10th level.

Trackless Step (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a Deadeye Archer cannot be tracked in natural surroundings. See the druid class feature, page 36 of the Player’s Handbook.

Camouflage (Ex): A Deadeye Archer of 7th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Endless Flight (Ex): A 9th level Deadeye Archer suffers no range increment penalties for attacks with ranged weapons, and may make ranged weapon attacks at any target within both her line of sight and her line of effect.

[Invader]

What about something that allows all successful attacks made against a single creature in a single round count as a single attack for purposes of damage reduction.

It might take a bit of rewording or tweaking so it can't be abused but it solves one of the really big obstacles for archers.

[Namfuak]

I don't know where this fits in, but I feel like it could be a cool ability:

"When an attack (including spells involving attack rolls) against a Deadeye Archer misses, she may move five feet or make a hide check as a free action. This action resolves before any other attacks which are chained, but if a single attack involves simultaneous attack rolls (such as a twinned spell), they still resolve at the same time and those rolls may only trigger this ability once."

[kalasulmar]

What about something that allows all successful attacks made against a single creature in a single round count as a single attack for purposes of damage reduction.

It might take a bit of rewording or tweaking so it can't be abused but it solves one of the really big obstacles for archers.

Pathfinder feat. Clustered Shots is the name.

[nedz]

Skills requirement should probably be 8 ranks — but it's not that important.
Ranger HIPs at level 7, and before Camouflage? HIPs is good, but this is quite early. Ranger gets this much later.
Trackless Step at 11th ?
The sequence of these should probably be Trackless Step, Camouflage, HIPs
Bonus feat every 3 levels. Scout gets them every 4th.

You should point him at a Swift Hunter build.
Scout 3 / Ranger 17 or Scout 4 / Ranger 16 with the Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish feats.

OK - I'm looking at this w.r.t. Ranger and Scout, but given the rest of your party he probably needs some help.

[ComaVision]

Isn't there a ranged school in Path of War? It seems it would be easier to let him take class levels in that rather than try to make "Swift Hunter Ambusher" a prestige class.

[Extra Anchovies]

Isn't there a ranged school in Path of War? It seems it would be easier to let him take class levels in that rather than try to make "Swift Hunter Ambusher" a prestige class.

Agreed. If he's open to learning/using the maneuver system, a Solar Wind (from PoW) and Tempest Gale (from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411495-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Discussion-Thread-IV))) focused initiator can do some pretty crazy stuff.

[Sacrieur]

Isn't there a ranged school in Path of War? It seems it would be easier to let him take class levels in that rather than try to make "Swift Hunter Ambusher" a prestige class.

This is 3.5e, so ToB is the best they have.

[ComaVision]

This is 3.5e, so ToB is the best they have.

Oh damn. It's a shame that the systems aren't similar so you could translate classes between them.

[Sacrieur]

Oh damn. It's a shame that the systems aren't similar so you could translate classes between them.

The difficulty for translating Pathfinder to 3.5 is higher than the opposite, since one condenses down. More things can go wrong and get complicated. Some of the maneuvers are directly translatable but keep in mind that PoW tends to be more powerful than ToB. It can be a large time commitment for the DM to do this. I've had difficulty creating my own alternate versions of spells within systems, let alone translating an entire discipline.

The OP may not be familiar enough with PoW to commit to a ranged stalker with ranged disciplines, despite it being a pretty good fit.

The character in the OP is already a ranger, so you can't start over with a base class, unless the OP is allowing him to translate his entire class over.

I think it would be easier and safer to build a prestige class that permits ToB martial maneuvers, but permitting the use of a ranged weapon as a discipline weapon and ranged attacks for melee attacks. I haven't looked into how feasible this is, though.