Game Theory: where can we go with a 1/3 casting barbarian?

[CyberThread]

So my quotation is.


What can we do with the barbarian to give it casting options that make sense without running afoul of rage mechanics?

[Ralanr]

Well, we could limit the type of spells on there spell list. Aside from wizard schools. All spells have a type, evocation etc. maybe limit it to a certain spell type in a particular spell class list?

[HoarsHalberd]

Best I can see is a minion-master

Give it a feature that states: "Spells that create or animate weapons, objects or minions that require the use of a bonus action to direct share all the benefits of your rage skill while it is active and damage taken or attacks made by these creations count towards ensuring the prolonging of rage." Give them that as a level 3 feature maybe, or bump it back a bit. Then give them at level 14 the ability to: "When the barbarian is raged and has minions gaining benefits from his rage, he can activate wrathful resonance, allowing him to substitute his minions physical modifiers for his own. When his rage ends, he takes 1d4 damage for every minion he applied this benefit to."

Or we can skirt around the concentration mechanic with a level 3 ability like so:

"At the beginning of every day, the savage mage can choose a spell to knit into his enraged psyche. Spells that can be used have to be single target concentration spells that can target oneself. When the barbarian enters a rage, he can choose to activate the spell but only upon himself as he slips into it. The buff lasts it's duration or until the rage ends, whichever is sooner. Whilst used under these circumstances the spell is not considered a concentration spell, and thus can be maintained during the rage and does not require constitution saves upon damage."

[Ralanr]

I think tying concentration into rage is the right way to go. Make it so rage is the only time you could cast them.

[ruy343]

So my question is:

What can we do with the barbarian to give it casting options that make sense without running afoul of rage mechanics?

Doesn't the path of the totem warrior kind of do this already? It allows the character access to a few rituals, keeping with the flavor of being in-tune with the wilds.

However, to do something more flavorful with the barbarian, perhaps you could create a subclass that only casts a few limited spells while raging, with the fluff that you have access to this primal power only while enraged. Maybe you could even use your Constitution modifier as the ability that determines the saving throws.

The spells that I would allow the barbarian to use would likely be transmutation spells (Expeditious attack [not retreat; that's for pansies and girlymen], enlarge/reduce, maaaaaaybe haste, etc.) that only target yourself. Maybe I would consider only allowing spells from the druid's spell list. I dunno, I'm away from the book at the moment.

Maybe to preserve the way that rage works, I would allow the spells to be cast as a bonus action, or require that the casting suck from their hit points. There needs to be a way to allow the barbarian to cast his spells without sacrificing his rage by not attacking for a turn if we were to stick with in-combat rage-spellcasting.

I think that it would be really cool to get the enlarge/reduce spell to only target yourself, and then have the barbarian go bananas on some mooks.

Another possibility that I just thought of is to allow the barbarian to learn and cast spells normally, but in order to cast them while raging, make there be some kind of penalty (spend a hit dice, lose hit points equal to spell level*3, spend a rage use, etc.)

[JNAProductions]

Expeditious Attack is basically Frenzy, as is Haste. Considering what Frenzy costs... Those spells either make you exhausted, or are too powerful.

[HoarsHalberd]

Expeditious Attack is basically Frenzy, as is Haste. Considering what Frenzy costs... Those spells either make you exhausted, or are too powerful.

Bugger, aye. Haste is much better than frenzy actually, as you could weave it into a PM build to be doing 3(d10+STR+Rage)+(1d4+STR+Rage) as opposed to 3(d12+str+rage). Hmm, maybe make it so it only works with level 2 or below spells, but as a trade off, give it a feature at level 10 that ties it so strongly to the rage that you don't cast it with slots as you rage?

[ChubbyRain]

Give the barbarian a fairly offensive spells list. To cast a spell the barbarian must enter rage on the same turn. If you cast a spell when you enter rage it counts as an attack only for the purposes of continuing rage.

Spells are centered on you or are self spells (like burning hands) but they always ignore you as a target.

Barbarian's Turn

Moves near a bunch if enemies
Enters rage
Huge explosion of fire (action fireball)... Barbarian is unscathed but the enemies around her are all messed up or dead.

Yeah.... This could work... I'm going to try and set up a subclass set around this.

EDIT!

Question! Should one use the Eldritch Knight type 1/3 casting or just use a Warlock type casting for this? I'm going to make both but I really like the idea of the warlock casting progression for something like this (auto scaling, per short rest).

Edit x2

Come yell at me

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417378-Barbarian-Primal-Path-Rage-Mage-(WIP)

[Mitchellnotes]

When thinking about the 1/3 casting barbarian, there are a couple things that come to my mind. I think the closest analogue would be the 3.0-3.5 rage mage, and I think that we would want it to be differentiated somehow from the other 1/3 casting archetypes somehow, yet at the same time follow them as models.

The first question I think is what we want to focus on. In terms of the barbarian, I think that the thing that stands out most to me is the rage ability, so I think I would connect that to the casting somehow. The other question is what spells do we focus on. The eldritch knight gets abjuration and evocation, and the arcane trickster gets enchantment and illusion. That leaves divination, conjuration, necromancy, and transmutation. Of those four, I think I would focus on conjuration and necromancy or transmutation and conjuration to support the tribal/shamanistic theme without focusing too much on a nature theme which is already covered by druids and rangers already. I think I would also use charisma as a casting stat if we are pulling from the wizard list.

In terms of archetype benefits, we need something for level 3, 6, 10, and 14. I think its also important to note that 2nd level spells are gained at 7, 3rd at 13, and 4th at 19.

Here is what I would think about for archetype benefits:

3rd level: ability to cast spells while raging. Add casting stat and rage damage bonus to damage done by spells cast while in a rage. (warlock dips with eldrith blast could be problematic here, maybe limit it to spells gained from the rage mage list?)

6th level: Raging doesn't break concentration. Bonus to concentration checks equal do the rage damage bonus.

10th level: Advantage on saving throws vs. spells while raging? I'm not sure about this one, the other path bonuses seem to be more flavorful, but this could be powerful.

14th level: Add the rage damage bonus to the save DCs of spells cast while raging. This could be potentially very powerful (up to +4 save DC), but bc it comes so late, multiclassing to abuse it would be difficult, and it would only apply to a select number of spells level 1-4. This is the ability that comes to mind most for me when I think of the rage-mage.

[Shining Wrath]

Elemental barbarians?

At level 3 a barbarian chooses an element. They can produce certain limited spell-like abilities while raging (at the cost of spell slots), and a limited selection of spells related to their element when not raging.

[ruy343]

Elemental barbarians?

At level 3 a barbarian chooses an element. They can produce certain limited spell-like abilities while raging (at the cost of spell slots), and a limited selection of spells related to their element when not raging.

Huh.... what if you took the "way of the 4 elements" stuff from monk and gave it to barbs at a slower rate? I could see Fangs of the Fire Snake being a great boon for barbarians, for instance, without being too crazy powerful. Perhaps even let the barb generate ki and use that as their resource while raging?

This is just too interesting...

EDIT: What if they had 1-2 ki per rage, and the amount of ki per rage increased to 3 or so with time?

[XmonkTad]

What about having a barbarian that could roll on the "Wild Magic Surge" table (PHB 104) as a bonus action after attacking during a rage? You'd need to make a few adjustments, such as rolling a 99-00 restores your rages instead of sorcery points etc. Also you would need to rule that any spell you cast by virtue of using this ability can be concentrated on during rage. Don't know what the higher level abilities look like, but I'll think of something.

[snooggums]

Limiting the spells to those that are only Verbal and maybe not Concentration requirements would best fit the idea of something to do in a rage. I'm not sure there would be enough spells to fit this criteria.

[Fwiffo86]

Limiting the spells to those that are only Verbal and maybe not Concentration requirements would best fit the idea of something to do in a rage. I'm not sure there would be enough spells to fit this criteria.

Agreed. Why not swap "spellcasting" with an ability similar to the lock invocations? or Arcanum. Probably the arcanum due to the tiny list.

[ChubbyRain]

Agreed. Why not swap "spellcasting" with an ability similar to the lock invocations? or Arcanum. Probably the arcanum due to the tiny list.

Mostly because rage is per day and the lock works by per short rest.

I looked into it and it doesn't sync up well.

To bad rage wasn't a short rest mechanic... I would have loved that.

Invocations might work but all of this doesn't give you the rage mage, the rage mage (from 3e and 4e) has a apecific typical caster + melee death rage make up and if you take it too far from that you get... Err.. Something else.

Edit

Here is what I got so far.





This will be fluffed as Primal Magic and not Arcane or Divine. Primal Magic doesn't come from oneself or from the gods but from the very plane of existence itself.

Of course it could be arcane, I don't care.

Spellcasting (3rd Level)
At third level you learn arcane secretes that are fueled by your rage.

Cantrips
You learn two damaging cantrips from the Druid or Sorcerer spell list which may be used at any time, even during your rage. At 10th level you learn an additional Druid or Sorcerer cantrip of your choice. Using these cantrips extend your rage as if you attacked normally.

Spell Slots
Use the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster spell slots per spell level table to determine the number of spells of each level you may cast each day. To learn a spell you must have slots of that level and you regain all expended spell slots

Spell Known of 1st Level and Higher: You know three 1st level Druid or Sorcerer spells of your choice. These spells must target creatures other than yourself, cause damage, or cause some debilitating effect. You use the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster Spells Known column for the number of spells you may learn. When you cast a spell that has the concentration tag, it instead has a duration of 1 minute or when your rage ends (whichever comes first).

Whenever you gain a level in Barbarian you may replace a spell you knew with a new spell.

Spell Casting Ability
When not raging Charisma is your spell casting ability for your Druid or Sorcerer spells. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spell casting ability (generally or specifically).

Spell Save DC: 8 + Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Charisma Modifier

Spell Attack Modifier: Your Proficiency Bonus + Your Charisma Modifier

While you are raging you may use Constitution in place of Charisma for all effects relating to your spell casting ability.

Raging Spell Caster
The only time you may cast a spell of 1st level or higher is on the same turn in which you enter rage. This spell may be an action or bonus action spell but must be one in which the Barbarian Rage Mage could learn. When you cast this spell you may continue your rage into the next round even if it doesn't require an attack roll or your didn't take damage.

Spells that you cast that have a range and an Area of Effect (such as Shatter or Fireball) are centered on the rage mage but the rage mage is not harmed by the spell. Spells in which the range originates from the caster and single target spells are unaffected (such as Lightning Bolt, Fear, or Burning Hands).

Raging Magic (Level 6)
Your rage spills over into your spells. When enemies take damage from a spell you cast while raging, you may add your rage bonus damage to the roll.

Primal Alteration (Level 10)
When you strike an enemy you may expend a first level or higher spell slot to coat your weapon in primal elemental energy. Choose Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder. Your weapon damage type becomes that type of damage and is considered magical for purposes of overcoming resistances. This effect last for Concentration or 1 Minute.

As a bonus action you may expend a spell slot of first level or higher to cast the spell "Protection from Energy". This effect lasts for Concentration or 1 Hour.

You do not need to be in rage to perform these abilities but rage also doesn't stop you either. When not in rage use the normal rules for concentration, if you go into rage then your rage time (up to one minute or hour) your concentration and once you leave rage your spell ends.

Restraining Spell Fury (Level 16)
As an action, when you cast a rage mage spell when you enter rage you may hold the spell and your rage until a later round (no more than 10 rounds).

For the first round, your rage continues as if you have attacked or had damage dealt to you. After that you must follow the rules for rage but you do not gain any advantages for being in rage (such as advantage on str checks and saves and rage damage).

However on a later turn you may, as part of your action, unleash your fury. The spell that you held is now cast overpowered, fueled by your rage in which you had to hold back. For each round you held your spell it deals additional damage as if it had increase in level, up to a maximum of a 9th level spell. If the spell doesn't do damage then the target takes disadvantage on the spell's saving throw for a number of rounds you spent holding the spell and checking your fury.


Cantrip
Acid Splash, Chill Touch, Firebolt, Friends, Poison Spray, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, Shillelagh, Shocking Grasp, and Thorn Whip.

1st
Animal Friendship, Burning Hands, Charm Person, Chromatic Orb, Color Spray, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Fog Cloud, Magic Missile, Ray of Sickness, Sleep, Thunderwave, and Witch Bolt.

2nd
Blindness/Deafness, Cloud of Daggers, Crown of Madness, Darkness, Enlarge/Reduce (reduce only), Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, Moon Beam, Phantasmal Force, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Spike Growth, and Suggestion.

3rd
Call Lightning, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Fear, Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Lightning Bolt, Plant Growth, Sleet Storm, Slow, Stinking Cloud and Wind Wall.

4th
Banishment, Blight, Confusion, Grasping Vine, Ice Storm, Polymorph, Storm Sphere, Vitriolic Sphere, Wall of Fire, and Watery Sphere.


I need to add a few more spells I think, when I first made the spell list I only was doing PHB but I have since added EE spells so I'll fill it out later... Not sure if I have all the EE spells (actually I see I'm missing Ice Knife and Earth Tremor... So yeah more spells to come. As with any EE spell, ask your DM before you take it.



Still working on it.