Suggestions/thoughts on a favored soul build?

[charlesk]

Our family is doing a short 5e campaign, custom setting, starting at level 11. Party so far consists of a sorcerer, a life cleric, and then two more slots which will need to likely provide more melee coverage, damage, and stealth/utility.

I am leaning towards some sort of favored soul build, possibly combining with paladin for a pure "vengeful" type melee. But I also thought about maybe mixing with monk and/or rogue for a "sneakier" damage type. (Looks now like the 4th player is going to rogue so I don't need to worry about that.)

It's all pretty nebulous at the moment, so I'd be grateful for any synergy ideas to push me in the right direction. (The Charisma synergy between sorc and paladin seems obvious but the details are sketchy beyond that.)

Thanks. :)

[Madfellow]

The Charisma synergy between sorc and paladin seems obvious but the details are sketchy beyond that.

More than that, the sorcerer provides a ton of spell slots that the paladin can use to fuel Divine Smite.

[charlesk]

Indeed, I was thinking of that as well, just forgot to write it. :)

I guess just a shallow dip then? I am leaning towards a bombastic in-your-face meleer (a type I usually don't do).

Wondering if a monk dip would also be worthwhile.

So many options...

[Madfellow]

I guess just a shallow dip then? I am leaning towards a bombastic in-your-face meleer (a type I usually don't do).


In that case, you're going to want hit points, and sorcerers don't have a lot of those. Might want to lean more toward paladin.

[charlesk]

I did think of that.. though the extra paladin levels don't really buy this build much, and greatly slow down spellcasting.

Maybe the build doesn't make as much sense as I thought...

[CantigThimble]

What about only taking 2 levels of paladin to get essential features, then going straight sorcerer, prioritize Con and Str/Dex over Cha and try to limit your spell list to spells that don't suffer from low Cha, like Haste and other buffs. With higher Con, you should be okay on hit points and with poor Cha, you can focus on using as many slots as possible to smite fools rather than on spells.

[Easy_Lee]

As I recall, the standard build for this was paladin 6 or so / dragon sorcerer 14, DEX + CHA. Dragon sorcerer gains an additional HP each level and better armor. Paladin grants smites, half casting, several paladin spells which you can cast out of any of your spell slots, the CHA to saves Aura, and some smites. You smite with your higher level spell slots, and use the sorcerer metamagic to do all kinds of interesting things. The overall effect is delayed sorcerer progression but increased spell selection, very powerful smites, and metamagic to play with. You hit caster level 17, meaning that you do get 9th level slots, if not 9th level spells.

Paladin / favored soul is redundant because you don't need the Paladin weapon and shield proficiency or extra attack if you already get it from favored soul. That build has less HP as well, so unless there's a favored soul feature you want then I wouldn't recommend it.

[charlesk]

Yeah I was realizing some of the FS features are redundant with the paladin. But I really like the idea of the extra spells, especially combining divine and arcane spells... things like spirit guardians, etc.

I am not too keen on taking a bunch of paladin levels, it just doesn't seem to add a whole lot. And dragon sorcerer is done so much, I wanted something different.

But sometimes classic builds are classic for a reason.

[Paeleus]

Perhaps a swashbuckler3/favored soul8? Good damage from constant sneak attack, no AoO if you hit a target, plus cunning action. FS will get you a double attack, and war domain spells are I think the only way to access magic weapon. Be a TWF and take warcaster, pick your metamagics and call it a day.

[charlesk]

That's interesting. I was looking at swashbuckler and wondering if I could make it work.

Does seem like a neat concept, but on looking at it, I don't think it will work well for this particular character.

I think I'm fairly settled on something like paladin 2 / FS 9, choosing war domain for access to some of the cleric goodies like spiritual weapon and spirit guardians. This seems to work best thematically with this character.

Another option is paladin 3 / FS 8 to gain access to an oath... where oath of vengeance would be best for this concept. Is it worth delaying spellcasting more? An odd level of paladin means no spell slot progression, and 3 levels in a class means basically giving up an ASI unless I go for the 4th. OTOH, Bane and Hunter's Mark are very nice spells and so is the Channel Divinity feature.

Thoughts?

[Millface]

That's interesting. I was looking at swashbuckler and wondering if I could make it work.


Another option is paladin 3 / FS 8 to gain access to an oath... where oath of vengeance would be best for this concept. Is it worth delaying spellcasting more? An odd level of paladin means no spell slot progression, and 3 levels in a class means basically giving up an ASI unless I go for the 4th. OTOH, Bane and Hunter's Mark are very nice spells and so is the Channel Divinity feature.

Thoughts?

I'm running this combo right now, FS up to your extra attack, 2 levels paladin, then the rest FS again. Prioritized CON/CHA for health, you expressed concern about not having as much health, but being able to use a shield makes for some pretty great AC anyway. I haven't run into any problems, especially because I can quicken up a cure wounds on myself before making an attack if need be. Its an incredibly potent class combo and almost impossible to take down. Especially once you take shield mastery.

I've never had so many options in and out of combat before, its very fun. You can heal, ranged dpr or melee dpr just as well, depending on your mood that session.

[CantigThimble]

I don't think the Oath is actually worth it. The only ability you can get that could matter is channel divinity, as learning more first level spells or getting 5 more points of lay on hands is pretty useless. So which is going to be better? Channel Divinity or a single high level spell? Probably the spell.

[charlesk]

I'm torn on the shield. I normally prioritize survivability in my characters, often playing tanks and healers. But in this party we have 2 tanks already, and even our blaster sorc will have a lot of HP. What we don't have is solid front-line DPS, and so I kinda volunteered for that role.

Except it's hard, because I am still so drawn to the tanky aspect. :) The difference in damage between 1d8 and 2d6 doesn't seem that great, while +2 AC is pretty tangible. So I get tempted to go S+B with this guy.

The difference may be GWM. Those extra attacks are a big deal, and the -5/+10 could be useful in some situations.

Of course I won't be as surivable, but I guess it will give the cleric something to do. Plus as you said, I can self-heal.

I do need to figure out this fighting style thing.

As for the Oath... the channel divinity for oath of vengeance (which suits this character's fluff perfectly) is pretty danged powerful. Advantage on the BBEG for 10 rounds on a short rest? That's pretty decent.

[SharkForce]

if you get a fighting style, 1d8 + 2 is pretty close to 2d6, and as a sorcerer, the bonus action attack is pretty meaningless because you can quicken cantrips for your bonus action (which won't be that great at first, but should become fairly respectable once you get your third damage die. or could be amazing if you instead splashed 3 levels of warlock and grabbed shillelagh + eldritch blast + agonizing blast, but that's really delaying your spellcasting and doesn't truly come online until level 12, so... interesting build eventually, but kinda bad early on).

[Millface]

if you get a fighting style, 1d8 + 2 is pretty close to 2d6, and as a sorcerer, the bonus action attack is pretty meaningless because you can quicken cantrips for your bonus action (which won't be that great at first, but should become fairly respectable once you get your third damage die. or could be amazing if you instead splashed 3 levels of warlock and grabbed shillelagh + eldritch blast + agonizing blast, but that's really delaying your spellcasting and doesn't truly come online until level 12, so... interesting build eventually, but kinda bad early on).

This is why you take two levels in paladin. A +5D8 smite is better than any cantrip, making melee very viable and that extra attack much more potent.

Quickening your best damage spell and then swinging in for two smites is amazing burst. And the class combo sustains just as well as any other class if you don't want to burn so many slots so fast. But then... Sorc points allow you to make more smite slots on the fly so its pretty hard to run out. Personally I like quickening a hold person/monster and auto critting twice. Thats one very dead critter.

I'm gushing, sorry, its my favorite class combo so far by a long shot :-)

[SharkForce]

sorcerer points barely create any more slots for smiting at all. it really is not a good feature as far as casting more total spells is concerned... it is an option if you get *really* desperate, but it really is best used to fuel the only particularly good class feature sorcerers get, which is metamagic.

as far as no cantrip being worth the smite, that really is a matter of perspective... the smite is a lot more expensive. a level 4 spell slot vs 2 sorcery points? one of those things is a heck of a lot more sustainable than the other. if you managed to get your grubby mitts on 2 levels of warlock, that could even be 2 sorcery points to get in a full eldritch blast, which will probably do more damage than the smite would have (also, it works better with ranged attacks, which might be a better choice for a sorcerer).

i can definitely see how sorcerer combos well with paladin. having a big melee burst and respectable sustained damage that works on almost anything is definitely a nice option. i'm just not sold on it being particularly necessary to get a bonus action attack feat with it. you will get a bit more burst, but will you get enough extra burst to be worth the extra cost?

[Easy_Lee]

sorcerer points barely create any more slots for smiting at all. it really is not a good feature as far as casting more total spells is concerned... it is an option if you get *really* desperate, but it really is best used to fuel the only particularly good class feature sorcerers get, which is metamagic.

I dunno, full casting is pretty good.

[SharkForce]

I dunno, full casting is pretty good.

their full casting is limited heavily in spells known and spells available on their spell list. favoured soul helps that, but it's still a pretty painful limit, and makes it not nearly as good as the full casting of, say, a bard or a druid or a wizard.

[Easy_Lee]

their full casting is limited heavily in spells known and spells available on their spell list. favoured soul helps that, but it's still a pretty painful limit, and makes it not nearly as good as the full casting of, say, a bard or a druid or a wizard.

While true, most casters can only pick a subset of the spells available to them. If all of the spells you wanted, or at least most of them, are on your spell list then it's not a problem. The shorter spell list only limits sorcerer variety, not power.

[Socko525]

I'm a big fan of paladin, so I figure depending on how "melee-y" you want to be, being a level 11 paladin means you'd have improved divine smite right from the start. Just a thought.

[SharkForce]

While true, most casters can only pick a subset of the spells available to them. If all of the spells you wanted, or at least most of them, are on your spell list then it's not a problem. The shorter spell list only limits sorcerer variety, not power.

more options (provided they don't reduce the effectiveness of other options or remove other options) *are* a form of power. being able to afford to know phantasmal force is a form of power any time where being able to take out a single enemy with a bad int save is of value. which isn't all that often (at least, not compared to being able to take out a group of enemies with wis saves or cha saves or dex saves), but when it is, it is a form of power for you to be able to afford to have that spell without giving up something else. it is this principle that makes wish so good; you very rarely see anyone discussing using wish to grant permanent resistances or similar, even though that is a direct increase in power, because it comes at the cost of a risk of losing the ability to cast wish. and yet, in spite of very rarely being discussed for use in that capacity, everyone seems to agree that wish is a very strong spell, simply because it greatly increases the options you have available.

but i'll put it another way: go look at the thread where the person is asking what do wizards bring to the party. if you removed all class features except for spellcasting and the spellbook (which enables spellcasting), the vast majority of the thread would remain the same. you'd have to remove the occasional reference to something else, but mostly the things that people will describe the wizard class bringing to the table come from spellcasting alone.

in contrast, let us suppose we had a similar thread about sorcerers. how much of that thread do you imagine would need to be rewritten to accomadate a loss of metamagic? you can keep the archetypes, the font of power, everything else, but lose the ability to gain metamagic techniques. just about every good thing the sorcerer has revolves around metamagic.

sorcerers have spellcasting, yes. but it isn't very good spellcasting. it's arguably the worst full spellcasting in the game... until you add metamagic, and then it becomes sort of good (but still probably has less overall power than a wizard or druid).

[charlesk]

Thanks for the replies. It's all been helpful, though I am probably not actually going to be optimizing this guy as much as I could. :) To some extent I am playing a FS / paladin because it's a neat character concept, and I realize it could be more ideal than what I am planning. What I will end up with is something of a melange of a melee-focused smiter and a caster. I like the idea of having a nice selection of arcane and divine spells.

Plan right now is FS 8 / paladin 3 to get the oath features. This guy will be something of a "glass cannon", heavy on offense and probably more squishy than a melee should be, which I hope to compensate for with heavy offense and some defensive spells.

He's somewhat of a reckless character which fits the campaign where he will be playing. I also decided to take the "lucky" feat both because it is useful and because it fits the character by providing a way to explain how he got to level 11 without getting himself killed. ;)