Magic Guilds in Literature

[Slayer Lord]

Hey Playgrounders. I was wondering if I could get suggestions on stories (short story or novel length) that you feel handle magic guilds or their equivalents in unique ways. Particularly in how they support themselves.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm working on a story where magic guilds are prevalent within the main culture and are generally accepted. I don't want to go the route where they are secretive clubs that just huddle around doing mysterious wizard stuff, but at the same time I don't want to go the Fairy Tail or DnD route where you can't walk down the street without tripping over the latest magical doohickey. How can you provide magical healing without trivializing sickness or injury in the world? In short, how to have guilds to provide valued public services without crossing into a magitech society? Just need some inspiration to get the creative juices flowing.

Thanks for the assist.

[Lethologica]

If magic isn't either incredibly secret, rare, difficult, dangerous, or some combination of the above, magitech is inevitable. You're saying you don't want magic to be incredibly secret.

If magic is incredibly rare, you get mages who are extremely scarce and valuable. Wealthy kingdoms might be able to gather one guild of mages capable of, and devoted to, large-scale military or public works projects.

If magic is incredibly difficult, most places will find it easier to train a battalion of people to make do with mundane tools. You end up with magic academies that are like secluded temples where mages struggle for decades to master their art.

If magic is incredibly dangerous, people will only chance it at the point of utmost desperation. Rather than secluded temples, magic is conducted in containment facilities to minimize the potential fallout. Unlicensed magic is severely punished. Everyone remembers the Disaster of '88, or perhaps they can travel to the boundary of the Colorado Magic Wasteland to refresh their memory.

There might also be magic taboos, likely as a consequence of one of the aforementioned problems. Figuring out how to have public magic guilds despite a taboo is left as an exercise for the alert reader.

[Killer Angel]

If the services provided by magic are costly (and I'm sure they are), you can have a society with a strong presence of magic, and still it will be available only for certain privileged classes.

[Radar]

One of the IMO best literary examples is The Black Magician trilogy (and related sequels and prequel) by Trudi Canavan. There is a mage guild (singular) in a particular country in the setting, which is all about sharing knowledge between guild magicians and training kids. They even do some important community work, but there never is enough of them to solve all problems or introduce magitech, because:
1. Magic is not nearly as versatile as in D&D for example - complicated effects are actually difficult and most mage battles utilise raw energy blasts and simple shields. Tactics and personal reserves are the most important factors. No teleportation, polymorph or other crazy stuff.
2. Magical talent is not exactly common. I don't think, there were specifics given, but a rather small percent of the population has the talent. It is likely to be inherited though, so it's not scarce either.
3. Running a guild is costly, so for the most part the guild lives thanks to taking students from rich families along with hefty donations. Therefore noone bothered to check poor kids for talent (both because they didn't think about it and due to economical reasons).

At any rate, the books are worth reading - there was a lot of thought put into the setting to make it reasonable.

[Lethologica]

If the services provided by magic are costly (and I'm sure they are), you can have a society with a strong presence of magic, and still it will be available only for certain privileged classes.
Oh, right, forgot about the most common rationing mechanism. Derp. :smallredface:

[Cikomyr]

You can go the Warhammer, Discworld and Dragon Age way of magic guilds: its a mean of control and regulate these dangers to society.

A magical guild makes education more central, a mean of registering all those with potential and make sure they are taught safety rules and also kept in check by their peers.

Especially in a world where magic is dangerous to the Wizards and those around him. Discworld's is the same, but more subtle. Still spelled out in The Last Continent.

[Darth Credence]

One of my favorites, and a bit different, is from the Gentleman Bastard series (Lies of Locke Lamora, Red Seas Under Red Skies, and Republic of Thieves.) At one point in the history of the world, one powerful mage went to another and told the second they were going to form a guild. Then the two of them went to a third and said the same thing. Anyone who did not agree to join was killed off. Eventually, everyone who could do magic was a member of the guild, and they still make it a point to hunt down and eliminate anyone else who doesn't join up. Something like this, but set during the consolidation, could make for a great story.

There is also the Jedi council from the Star Wars saga. They are functionally a magic guild. Since people are either born with the force or not, and not many are, it naturally limits the amount of force users around. They also are always on the lookout for children with the ability in order to bring them into the fold, and imply heavily that anyone without the training will not be able to master the force or will fall to the dark side.

[Crow]

I think the Tsurani Assembly in Raymond Feist's Riftwar books is the best approximation of what just about every Mages' Guild would eventually become.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you want to write a magic guild in a realistic pseudo-medieval setting with little magi-tek I would suggest reading about real guilds in the medieval period.

Its too easy when writing fantasy to recycle incorrect notions from other authors. A fantasy guild doesn't have to be anything like a historical guild but you should really know what a guild actually is before you add the fantasy element. Even if you're throwing everything realistic out it can't hurt to know what you're throwing out.

[SaintRidley]

If you want to write a magic guild in a realistic pseudo-medieval setting with little magi-tek I would suggest reading about real guilds in the medieval period.

Its too easy when writing fantasy to recycle incorrect notions from other authors. A fantasy guild doesn't have to be anything like a historical guild but you should really know what a guild actually is before you add the fantasy element. Even if you're throwing everything realistic out it can't hurt to know what you're throwing out.

Listen to the East Saxon, he's absolutely right. Good to start with learning a bit about historical guilds before you muck about with any changes.

[Mewtarthio]

If you want to write a magic guild in a realistic pseudo-medieval setting with little magi-tek I would suggest reading about real guilds in the medieval period.

Its too easy when writing fantasy to recycle incorrect notions from other authors. A fantasy guild doesn't have to be anything like a historical guild but you should really know what a guild actually is before you add the fantasy element. Even if you're throwing everything realistic out it can't hurt to know what you're throwing out.

Right. Bear in mind that "Guild" is not an old-timey synonym for "trade school."


Oh, right, forgot about the most common rationing mechanism. Derp.

I believe the more polite term is "capitalism," but you're on the right track. :smalltongue:

[keenan]

If your providers offered by magic are usually high priced (and I believe they will are), you can have any society having a strong existence connected with magic, nevertheless it's going to be available only for specific privileged instruction.
http://wigunpics.science/17/g.png

[Lethologica]

I believe the more polite term is "capitalism," but you're on the right track. :smalltongue:
Prices may be set by something other than market competition, in which case the rationing mechanism is not entirely capitalistic, as I understand it. (But economics is not my area of expertise.)

[Bulldog Psion]

Oh, right, forgot about the most common rationing mechanism. Derp. :smallredface:

Yes, and the thing is that if magic is somehow inherent to the person, then it will not -- and cannot -- spread in the manner of ordinary technology.

For example, if a mage has the power to make a small island fly at great speed while shielding its surface from winds, then you have a commercial airliner, right?

Wrong. You have commercial airliners because any trained human can manufacture them and any trained human can fly them. If only the inventor of an aircraft could ever fly it, the Wright Brothers might well have been the only aviators of the 20th century.

So, if mages possess something that cannot be duplicated in just about anybody via training, then supply is strictly limited. You have a commercial airliner that is available to one powerful mage only; possibly to a monarch or high priest of a powerful religion; maybe to someone with a BOATLOAD of money, if they asked the touchy lightning-bolt flinging person really nicely, and said person isn't busy with something else.

I could probably figure out how to use a rocket launcher without too much trouble; only a mage can throw a fireball. Unless everybody is a mage, then the ability to throw fireballs will be rare, even if it's perfectly legal and widely accepted, and doesn't need to be hidden.

People born only under very rare circumstances (when the house they're being born in is struck by lightning, say) might be one way to go.

Or maybe the laws of magic are such that only 10,000 people with magical power can exist in the world at any one time. A new mage is born only when an old one dies. Or someone can kill a mage and try to learn their secrets ... but that is a very, very dangerous proposition for someone with no magical power.

The first thoughts off the top of my head.

[Calemyr]

Guilds provide several things:

1) Education (and the assumption of education): If you're guild certified (and your guild is worth anything), you are assumed to be well trained. This is very important with magic, as there is much to fear from untrained hands trying to grab too much without the discipline or knowledge to handle it. Being properly trained and having proof of it are both very valuable assets.

2) Corporate Power: "You mess with one, you mess with all" is a serious threat. It may be easy to strongarm a hedge wizard or a timid healer, but when mages band together they cease to be easy targets. There is a lot of power in being part of a group. One example from my own writing is a healer's union - all healers (at least those with the training to be a proper healer) belong to the union. Because of the utility a skilled healer can bring to a community or an army, their unified front allows them to declare certain things taboo (such as attacking healers or using abhorrent weapons). Violate the taboo and no healer will work with you, crippling your organization. As a result, one of the most passive and pleasant groups of people on the planet wield incredible influence simply by sticking together.

3) Standardized Skill and Disciplines: When everybody does their own thing, it is very difficult to summarize what an individual is capable of. When one person's fireball is a little bouncing sphere of flame and another's is the practical equivalent of a high-yield rocket, it is hard for anyone, mage or not, to get a grasp on things. With a guild defining standardized terminology and classifications, everyone ends up with a usable lexicon for a mage can actually do, making everyday life much simpler. This also allows for mages to expand their horizons more easily.

4) Quality and Price Control: Both the responsibility and benefit of guilds, employing a guild member should come with a reliable expectation of the competence and expense that guild member brings to the table, and an assurance that not only do you get what you pay for, but they get paid a fair wage for their skill. This makes interactions better defined and simpler, and therefore encourages more interaction.

5) Standards and Practices: With all the advantages of being part of the guild, the guild gains the ability to make certain demands of its members. You want to ban necromancy? Encourage people to put more effort in precision rather than power (to cut back on collateral damage)? Maybe push the world to accept a new bit of arcane theory or cutting-edge technique? These things are an awful lot harder to do when all mages are their own people. Give them a place to belong and the benefits from belonging there, and you gain influence over them.

Do note that these are the potential goals of such a guild. Greed, laziness, ambition, cronyism, and arrogance will all do their best to pervert the system and introduce corruption.

[Lethologica]

Yes, and the thing is that if magic is somehow inherent to the person, then it will not -- and cannot -- spread in the manner of ordinary technology.
Sure, and I cover that in my first post (#2). Lightning striking one's birthplace as a criterion for inherent magical aptitude qualifies as "incredibly rare."

In addition, I think it's worthwhile to distinguish between that and the transmissibility of magical knowledge. Consider: there isn't much in the way of magic technology in Xanth, even though lots of people have magic, because everyone's magic is unique (IIRC). Contrast the A:tLA universe, where magical aptitude is reasonably common and magic knowledge is also teachable; the industrialization of Korra's time was practically inevitable. The Star Wars universe is a case where magic knowledge can be passed from one magic-user to another, but magic is incredibly rare, and there isn't much magitech (modulo whatever shenanigans the EU gets up to, I guess). I'm sure there are universes where rarity is high and transmissibility is low, though none come to mind at the moment. So there are multiple dimensions of potential contrast (or alignment) with ordinary technology.

[Traab]

I think the Tsurani Assembly in Raymond Feist's Riftwar books is the best approximation of what just about every Mages' Guild would eventually become.

As evidenced by what the mage school/guild on midkemia turned into over time iirc. Its been awhile since I read the books, but I think after a few series went by, it was as much a political bureaucratic body obsessed with its own importance as any other guild. But you beat me to it, I was going to mention the assembly if noone else had yet. However the details are probably something variable considering why it was formed in the first place. I mean, they were literally above the law, able to act however they saw fit, so long as they could honestly claim it was for the benefit of the empire.

[Gaming-Poet]

Yes, and the thing is that if magic is somehow inherent to the person, then it will not -- and cannot -- spread in the manner of ordinary technology.

For example, if a mage has the power to make a small island fly at great speed while shielding its surface from winds, then you have a commercial airliner, right?

Wrong. You have commercial airliners because any trained human can manufacture them and any trained human can fly them. If only the inventor of an aircraft could ever fly it, the Wright Brothers might well have been the only aviators of the 20th century.

This has been one of the major claims in DC Comics for about twenty years now. The reason that everyday technology is so similiar to ours in the real world despite the presence of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern is that they have no way to enable others on any real scale to do what they can do. So having Superman fly a spaceship to the moon doesn't really accomplish anything in terms of space travel, for example, and having Dr. Fate cure Oracle's paraplegia doesn't accomplish anything in terms of medical advancement.

There was a period of time in DC history when several superheroes had the intelligence to create easily replicated supertechnology, supertechnology which always disappeared at the end of the issue. Getting rid of this was one of DC's wiser moves. Now almost all DC technological innovation involves only weaponry, certain exotic devices that only superhumans could survive using, and the medical technology and medical advances that Lexcorps has a monopoly over and refuses to share.

[Gaming-Poet]

How can you provide magical healing without trivializing sickness or injury in the world?

We already have the ability to cure most of the ills that plague the planet today, yet that doesn't happen.

Some of it involves the darker side of capitalism and pure greed. We know for a fact that some pharmaceutical companies have tried to bribe physicians to prescribe their medications even when they might not be warranted. Some of it involves the exigencies of research and development costs, the old "the second pill costs 35 cents to make but the first pill cost 1.2 billion dollars" conundrum. Jonas Salk was very much the exception.

Fantasy fiction is replete with both greedy villains and indifferently materialistic merchants for whom it's "nothing personal, just business".

Some of it involves issues of nationalism, tribalism, and religious sovereignty. For example, you can not solve overpopulation problems in a country that rejects all birth control methods and shames all married couples who don't yet have children. You can not cure anorexia in a country that is simultaneously obsessed with fat-shaming and obsessed with fast food and unhealthy diets -- and let's not forget the odd real world findings that obesity worsens when its sufferers rely on zero-calorie diet products instead of altering their actual eating habits. Let's not forget those who refuse medical treatment for religious reasons.

I doubt that magical birth control would be any less controversial than birth control based in real world science. I suspect that a magical elixir that enables people to eat twice what they need while losing weight would result in people eating three times they need instead.

Some of it involves culture and custom. For example, in some parts of the United States, a major cause of illness among men is the local perception that it is a sign of unmanly weakness for a man to go to a doctor and that a "real man" should grin and bear it. A significant number of men die each year because of that perception. As another example, there are people who will turn down medical assistance if that assistance was promoted by a different political party than their own.

The Lord of the Rings, the Harry Potter books, and the Hunger Games all involve large groups of background people whose habits and customs have blinded them to the evil moving among them -- and would just as likely blind them to the way their habits and customs sabotage their health despite the presence of magical healing. Conan the Barbarian was too practical to turn down needed healing, but a lot of the low fantasy barbarians that followed in his wake would try to grin and bear it rather than recognize their need for healing before it was too late.

Some of it involves political machinations. For example, we know of some countries who would stop medical supplies on the border and refuse to allow them to reach the populace as part of a political ploy to overthrow the current regime. At one time in American history, there were areas where White men and women would refuse to accept blood donations from people of color even when their refusal meant their death. In the 1990s, there were a number of people who would refuse medical treatment if the only available physician was gay or lesbian.

To use a gaming example, in D&D it is easy to imagine dwarves refusing any magical cure that came from elves, and vice versa. It is easy to imagine an ordinary human refusing to share any healing potion with a beggar because, "eh, he aint gonna use his health for nothin but to beg anyway". It is easy to imagine a citystate's politicians intentionally withholding healing potions from those areas who won't vote for them, to ensure that only their supporters are healthy enough to make it to the voting booths on election day.

To be honest, it is far harder to imagine a way in which mass-produced healing potions could be introduced into the modern world and actually have any impact at all.