Sorcerer vs. Beguiler [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Venger

2015-05-26, 05:35 PM

Yeah, that's taken into account. Beguiler is Int-based casting, Sorcerer is Cha-based. Assuming both of them max out UMD and keep their Charisma as high as their class calls for, they'll have a roughly equal bonus throughout their career...assuming the Sorcerer doesn't find a way to get UMD onto his list via a feat or something.

while that's true, it's irrelevant since a sorcerer can use sor/wiz wands without rolling, while a beguiler has to hit 20, which he can't do reliably straight away

Good. I disagree, so let's argue it level by level. What 2 level 1 spells beat the 10 the beguiler gets, + armor +2 hp +7 or more skill points?

Sorcerer gets 2 skill points per level. So that's UMD and Concentration? That wouldn't be my choice, but ok.

no one is going to argue it level by level with you because it's a waste of time. there exists ample evidence that sorcerer outdoes beguiler at every level. look at any given sorcerer handbook rather than have everyone do the work for you. for example this one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0) when you're arguing against things basically acknowledged to be true, it's not other peoples' job to construct your points for you

Firstly, I'm gonna leave the level-by-level arguing to someone who actually cares.

Secondly, you're absolutely right, no Human has ever been a Sorcerer, and no Sorcerer would have an Int higher than 11. Ever. Not a single one, no sir.

yeah, skills are just for rogues

Good. Show me. At equivalent optimization at specific levels. Last thread, no one could even make a good stab at the 11 sorcerer spells that beat the beguilers 60+ at level 8. Can you do better?

as mentioned above, look at any sor/wiz handbook or spell list. beguilers are fun and all, but they lack a lot of important utility/OP spells at mid-high levels

Bad Wolf

2015-05-26, 05:41 PM

nedz

2015-05-26, 05:44 PM

Troacctid

2015-05-26, 05:51 PM

there exists ample evidence that sorcerer outdoes beguiler at every level.

Oh, I don't think that's true. Sorcerers are well-known to be one of the most backloaded classes in the game. They're crap at low levels. Beguilers are definitely better in the early game--they gain their known spells more quickly, they have more HP, they have better proficiencies, and they can use their skill points to solve problems without having to expend limited daily resources.

Sorcerers can pull ahead at later levels, where they can really start to leverage their high-level spell slots.

How does a Beguiler identify a magical item ?

Detect Magic with ranks in Spellcraft. Beguilers do this better than Sorcerers. Come on, man. :smalltongue:

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 05:55 PM

no one is going to argue it level by level with you because it's a waste of time. there exists ample evidence that sorcerer outdoes beguiler at every level. look at any given sorcerer handbook rather than have everyone do the work for you. for example this one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0) when you're arguing against things basically acknowledged to be true, it's not other peoples' job to construct your points for you

LOL. Lets see what YOUR link says are the best Sorcerer 1 spells.

Mount—It’s a mount. You ride it to places. You can also sell it and run off with the money before the buyer realizes he’s been had. Unless you want to major in either swindling or liveries, pass.
Sleep—The perfect antidote for when you can’t sleep due to being poked at with pointy sticks.
Color Spray—Blind them with magic!
Silent Image—Gives you more time to run from angry spouses.
Expeditious Retreat—Run away! Run away!
True Strike—Ah yes. Learn to use the Force.
Magic Missile—I keep it around for those pesky “class five roaming vapors” whom I can never quite Disintegrate properly.
Grease—Great for tripping up jocks, or enemies charging up a staircase at you—not that the two are mutually exclusive. Also, useful for lubrication.
Shield, Mage Armor—No one will suspect the man in ordinary clothing to be abnormally hard to hit!
Charm Person—“Barkeep, you don’t need to see our identification.”
Enlarge Person—Oh no! Growth hormones!
Ray of Enfeeblement—Jock-b-ware

I get 6 of the 13 "best" sorcerer level 1 spells at level 1. You get 2. Your "Proof" is much lacking. (Oh, and I get 8 of the "best" sorcerer spells at level 4, you get 1).

as mentioned above, look at any sor/wiz handbook or spell list. beguilers are fun and all, but they lack a lot of important utility/OP spells at mid-high levels

Hmmm. We have moved from "worse at all levels" to "lacking a lot of important utility at mid-high levels". Well, that is certainly a more defensible claim. You MIGHT even be right. I still think the beguiler is a clear winner through at least level 9, with a lot of comparable mojo going higher than that. When exactly does this mid-high level advantage materialize.

Venger

2015-05-26, 05:57 PM

This isn't going to turn into a 'Beguiler King' thread, is it?

I'd argue at low levels, yes, the Beguiler outclasses the sorcerer. But as it gets to higher levels, a mind blank will block a lot of spells.

is that a thing?

that's true to a certain extent, but things like benign transposition and wings of cover are still not easily replicable to a beguiler, both in arena combat against the sorcerer (hardly the contest someone trying to prove a low-lvl beguiler's worth would choose) or in everyday adventuring (bypassing the infamous Locked Door, or just avoiding attacks)

Oh, I don't think that's true. Sorcerers are well-known to be one of the most backloaded classes in the game. They're crap at low levels. Beguilers are definitely better in the early game--they gain their known spells more quickly, they have more HP, they have better proficiencies, and they can use their skill points to solve problems without having to expend limited daily resources.

Sorcerers can pull ahead at later levels, where they can really start to leverage their high-level spell slots.

sorry, I should have been more clear:

I agree with your assessment of the situation, and yes, at very low levels, beguilers do definitely have an edge.

I just didn't want to get sucked in to actually giving a level by level rebuttal, something we're all trying to avoid because it's a losing game. so I just made a more general statement

like martials vs casters, sorcerers do lag a bit early on.

How does a Beguiler deal with undead ?
How does a Beguiler deal with constructs ?
How does a Beguiler deal with dragons ?
How does a Beguiler deal with outsiders ?
How does a Beguiler identify a magical item ?
How does a Beguiler fly ?
How does a Beguiler teleport ?
How does a Beguiler scry ?
How does a Beguiler target fort or reflex saves ?
How does a Beguiler melle ?

Now you can access some of these with feats, but those are feats a sorcerer can spend on other things.

there, that's a pretty good list of why sorcerers win

although beguilers are better at scrying. sorcerers aren't gonna spend slots on clairvoyance.

Chronos

2015-05-26, 05:59 PM

At first level, the beguiler wins, no contest. All the sorcerer has going for it are spells, and beguilers know all the best first-level sorcerer spells and then some, plus being a rogue.

Bad Wolf

2015-05-26, 06:10 PM

is that a thing?

I was referring to the terrifying and short reign of Lord Drako, who claimed that wizards were in every way inferior to his 'Sorserer King'.

nedz

2015-05-26, 06:11 PM

like martials vs casters, sorcerers do lag a bit early on.
I think the cut off is about level 8.
This is when Sorcerer's start being able to cover most of the bases and it's probably the peak level for Beguilers. Beguilers get relatively few spells known from here on whilst Sorcerer's are just beginning to flower.

although beguilers are better at scrying. sorcerers aren't gonna spend slots on clairvoyance.
Beguilers can't do Scry and die out of the box, clairvoyance is very short range.

jiriku

2015-05-26, 06:15 PM

I think I'd agree that at all levels, the sorcerer is potentially more powerful than the beguiler. However, it's also true that at lower levels, the beguiler is much more useful than the sorcerer.

Power at the high tiers is measured in how many nukes you have. The sorcerer can collect a few while the beguiler never gets closer than time stop. Usefulness is measured in how many discrete situations you can handle. A low-level beguiler is useful in many situations, but his versatility doesn't really expand as he levels up -- he mostly just gets more powerful versions of the same old tricks. A low-level sorcerer is useless in a great many situations, and low-sorcerers scrabble desperately to select maximally versatile spells to compensate for this weakness. I would guess that somewhere in the neighborhood of levels 6-10, depending on the cleverness of the sorcerer's spell selection, the sorcerer begins to surpass the beguiler's versatility, and beyond level 10 the sorcerer can be both more powerful and more versatile than a beguiler.

However, this assumes significant optimization on the part of the sorcerer, and a lot of correct assumptions about what spells are good and what choices work well together. In the hands of an inexperienced or casual player, a beguiler is potentially a much stronger choice for both power and versatility, simply because every spell level is full of not-bad choices. I have seen players who barely know the rules perform passably well with beguilers -- I do not think those same players would have been so successful if they had been playing sorcerers.

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 06:16 PM

How does a Beguiler deal with undead ?
How does a Beguiler deal with constructs ?
How does a Beguiler deal with dragons ?
How does a Beguiler deal with outsiders ?
How does a Beguiler identify a magical item ?
How does a Beguiler fly ?
How does a Beguiler teleport ?
How does a Beguiler scry ?
How does a Beguiler target fort or reflex saves ?
How does a Beguiler melle ?

Now you can access some of these with feats, but those are feats a sorcerer can spend on other things.

At what level can a sorcerer surpass a Beguiler at most of those things? 10? 12? 14? An individual sorcerer, not the entire sorcerer list.

Feats roughly match up, but I will strongly argue that beguilers have easier ways to expand their lists than sorcs do.

How does a Beguiler deal with undead ?
Undead are mostly affected by illusions. Silent Image can totally wreck minor undead. More impressive kinds meet more impressive spells.
How does a Beguiler deal with constructs ?
See Undead
How does a Beguiler deal with dragons ?
Depends a lot on level.
How does a Beguiler deal with outsiders ?
Like dragons, depends on levels.
How does a Beguiler identify a magical item ?
As mentioned, better than you
How does a Beguiler fly ?
Shadow Conjuration or Greater Shadow Conjuration
How does a Beguiler teleport ?
Shadow Walk works well
How does a Beguiler scry ?
At mid levels better than you.
How does a Beguiler target fort or reflex saves ?
He doesn't. But he does have some decent no save just suck effects.
How does a Beguiler melle ?
Dominate Person on a fighter works great.

AvatarVecna

2015-05-26, 06:24 PM

So you have a conventional wisdom argument you can't defend. Fair enough.

And no beguiler ever had a decent charisma? There aren't non-human sorcerers?

Not "can't", just "can't be bothered". I like to think I don't have to respond to every inane challenge to an internet argument, and I spent a lot of time recently banging my head against a rather similar brick wall.

I'm sure there's Beguilers with decent Charisma, but it's never going to be as important for them as it is for a Sorcerer, and without a competitive Charisma, their bonuses will be close enough together that the difference is pretty moot, no matter who's in the lead. As for debating...

School
Sorcerer
Beguiler

Abjuration
304 (11.9%)
9 (8.1%)

Conjuration
385 (15.0%)
6 (5.4%)

Divination
142 (5.5%)
15 (13.5%)

Enchantment
164 (6.4%)
33 (29.7%)

Evocation
371 (14.5%)
2 (1.8%)

Illusion
155 (6.0%)
33 (29.7%)

Necromancy
287 (11.2%)
0 (0%)

Transmutation
715 (27.9%)
13 (11.7%)

Universal
25 (1.0%)
0 (0%)

Other
13 (.5%)
0 (0%)

Total
2561 (100%)
111 (100%)

The Beguiler has a decent spell list, but it doesn't get any bigger from where it starts. Furthermore, their extreme specialization is focused around one thing (manipulating minds); if manipulating minds won't solve the problem for whatever reason, the Beguiler is out of luck. The Beguiler has tons and tons of spells that all do more or less the same thing, while the sorcerer can cherry-pick the best spells for any particular general task (blasting, buffing, debuffing, mind manipulation, BFC, item/character transport, stealth, scrying, etc.). There's so many versatile spells on the sorcerer list that the Beguiler lacks, it's not even funny.

Beguilers have nothing from the Polymorph series. Those are spells that have their own handbooks. Beguilers have nothing from the Summon whatever series. Those are spells that are known far and wide for their many versatile uses (including breaking the action economy with SLA casting at the higher spell level versions). Beguilers have only some of the low-level, least useful BFC spells. They don't have Cloudkill, they don't have the Wall spells, they don't have any of the Earth/Stone manipulation spells. Beguilers don't have an teleportation spells, any flight-granting spells, or any planar travel spells. Beguilers don't have Gate or Wish, two of the most infamously broken spells in the entire game.

What will you do when you face a creature immune to your mind manipulation magic, like any undead, any construct, any vermin, most oozes, or anybody with Mind Blank and/or Protection from Evil active? What will you do when you come to a physically impassible barrier? What will you do when you face an enemy with a high Will save? Sure, enemies with low Will saves will be taken down easily, but enemies without high Will saves are likely not casters, and should never have been anything to worry about anyway.

Beguilers are really good at what they do. Unfortunately, that thing they're good at is easily circumvented, and they're not much good at anything else unless you really optimize (and a sorcerer optimized to the same level is just as good at just as many things). When it comes right down to it, if I wanted to play a caster specializing in illusions and enchantment, I'd rather play a Bard or a Sorcerer, because they're not virtually completely useless when those kinds of spells are.

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 06:28 PM

I think the cut off is about level 8.
This is when Sorcerer's start being able to cover most of the bases and it's probably the peak level for Beguilers. Beguilers get relatively few spells known from here on whilst Sorcerer's are just beginning to flower.

I think thats possible. I think it is a clear win for Beguiler through 8/9. Somewhere between 10 and 14 I THINK is where the Sorc actually pulls ahead on straight spell list comparison. But it is much less clear cut than the stock arguments make it. Both the Sorc and Beguiler are going to be looking for things like runestaves, for example, but the runestaff is going to be a lot more helpful for the beguiler than the Sorc, and the sorc list expanding feats are much worse than arcane disciple.

jiriku

2015-05-26, 06:32 PM

the runestaff is going to be a lot more helpful for the beguiler than the Sorc

Arguable. Also, consider that some players lack Magic Item Compendium, or will be playing in an environment where it isn't available, or will be playing in games where it isn't practical to obtain custom-made runestaves. I'm not sure that runestaves really support your argument all that well.

Urpriest

2015-05-26, 06:34 PM

Do beguilers have access to the Ancestral Relic Runestaff trick?

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 06:37 PM

Stats

Sorcerers get that. A Sorcerer gets a tiny % of that.

What will you do when you face a creature immune to your mind manipulation magic, like any undead, any construct, any vermin, most oozes, or anybody with Mind Blank and/or Protection from Evil active? What will you do when you come to a physically impassible barrier? What will you do when you face an enemy with a high Will save? Sure, enemies with low Will saves will be taken down easily, but enemies without high Will saves are likely not casters, and should never have been anything to worry about anyway.

Actually, beguilers get lots of great non mind affecting spells. Gems like Solid Fog, Glitterdust, and Slow. Not many creatures are BOTH immune to illusions and Mind affecting, and by the time you hit that optimization level, the beguiler has just expanded his spell list with one of several tricks that work better for beguilers than sorcs.

Walls. Seriously? I have Knock, Phase Door, Swift Etherealness, and Shadow Walk.

Aside from just ignoring the Mind Blank or Protection from Evil and just casting something else, Beguilers also get both Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic.

Do beguilers have access to the Ancestral Relic Runestaff trick? Whats the trick? Ancestral Relic certainly seems like a good way to get easy access to otherwise difficult to access spells. What makes it good for a sorc and not a beguiler?

Venger

2015-05-26, 06:40 PM

I was referring to the terrifying and short reign of Lord Drako, who claimed that wizards were in every way inferior to his 'Sorserer King'.

the brightest stars burn out the fastest.

I think the cut off is about level 8.
This is when Sorcerer's start being able to cover most of the bases and it's probably the peak level for Beguilers. Beguilers get relatively few spells known from here on whilst Sorcerer's are just beginning to flower.

Beguilers can't do Scry and die out of the box, clairvoyance is very short range.

I'd definitely agree with that

I just meant beguilers can scry at least a little out of the box, while sorcerers have to make at least some kind of token effort, but you're right.

At what level can a sorcerer surpass a Beguiler at most of those things? 10? 12? 14? An individual sorcerer, not the entire sorcerer list.

Feats roughly match up, but I will strongly argue that beguilers have easier ways to expand their lists than sorcs do.

How does a Beguiler deal with undead ?
Undead are mostly affected by illusions. Silent Image can totally wreck minor undead. More impressive kinds meet more impressive spells.
How does a Beguiler deal with constructs ?
See Undead
How does a Beguiler deal with dragons ?
Depends a lot on level.
How does a Beguiler deal with outsiders ?
Like dragons, depends on levels.
How does a Beguiler identify a magical item ?
As mentioned, better than you
How does a Beguiler fly ?
Shadow Conjuration or Greater Shadow Conjuration
How does a Beguiler teleport ?
Shadow Walk works well
How does a Beguiler scry ?
At mid levels better than you.
How does a Beguiler target fort or reflex saves ?
He doesn't. But he does have some decent no save just suck effects.
How does a Beguiler melle ?
Dominate Person on a fighter works great.

gonna need you to roll back the name-calling and the attitude

as nedz says, about level 8 when things like polymorph and enervation come online.

re:feats, that's not really true either. anything beguiler does to beef up its spell list (sand shaper, arcane disciple, etc) sorcerer can do as well, with the exception of rainbow servant, but at that point, the power's not really coming from beguiler anymore.

aside from rainbow servant, how can a beguiler get spells in a way sorcerer can't? where is your proof?

undead have good will saves and are immune to mind-affecting, a great percentage of your list. even if they are susceptible to x image spells, that doesn't help a lone beguiler in defeating them.

aside from golems, most constructs are not mindless, so will not blindly be tricked by x image. again, even if they were, that doesn't allow a lone beguiler to defeat them in many instances.

flight for a couple of rounds atop a summoned monster who takes a full round to call is hardly viable as an alternative to overland flight or similar. a beguiler needs items to replicate this, while a sorcerer can make do without

as mentioned, they're referring to scry and die, which beguiler is incapable of on its own.

what saveless effects does a beguiler have that an enemy will actually care about?
this question is meant for when you run into an enemy whose will save is too high for you to beat ( like undead)

again, the question of melee isn't asking about your ability to charm/dominate BSFs, it's about when you're forced into melee with a combat brute that also has a good will save (such as a demon). once more in this instance, beguiler is screwed on its own while sorcerer can whip out things like wings of flurry or belker claws.

you're not going to be able to "prove" beguiler is a better class than sorcerer because it's not actually true. there's a reason the prixe fixe casters are T3/T4 while the sorcerer is sitting pretty at the bottom of T2

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 06:46 PM

you're not going to be able to "prove" beguiler is a better class than sorcerer because it's not actually true. there's a reason the prixe fixe casters are T3/T4 while the sorcerer is sitting pretty at the bottom of T2

2 reasons, in fact.
1. JaronK made an error on what equivalent optimization is between these classes.
2. Groupthink. The phenomenon, well seen in this thread, wherein a dozen people state conventional wisdom, while citing misinformation and refusing to actually discuss specific examples.

If this is so OFFENSIVE to you, please stop arguing. Heck, maybe you are right. It could be, although I doubt it. The point of the thread was to show a level by level comparison. What did it get?

"RAAAHHH! Sorcs are teh awesom! Beguilers only cast illusions!"

Fine. Show me or go away.

re:feats, that's not really true either. anything beguiler does to beef up its spell list (sand shaper, arcane disciple, etc) sorcerer can do as well, with the exception of rainbow servant, but at that point, the power's not really coming from beguiler anymore.

aside from rainbow servant, how can a beguiler get spells in a way sorcerer can't? where is your proof?

Because some of those powers are awful for a sorc, and great for the beguiler. Arcane disciple (and anything else that gives a domain) adds spells to your list. Since, spell for spell, the sorcerer spells are as good or better than the domain spells, this doesn't really help the sorc at all. Unless he really needs to learn a heal spell or something else not on his list, he already has more good spells than he has spells known to take them. For beguiler, it just adds the spells to his list. Lets look at the core example. Animal Domain.

Calm Animals: Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Hold Animal: Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Dominate Animal: Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Summon Nature's Ally IV*: Calls creature to fight.
Commune with Nature: Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Antilife Shell: 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Animal Shapes: One ally/level polymorphs into chosen animal.
Summon Nature's Ally VIII*: Calls creature to fight.
ShapechangeF: Transforms you into any creature, and change forms once per round.

There is literally no spell on that list that the sorcerer can't already take, or take something else just as good, without wasting a feat. SNA is roughly equal to SM, maybe a touch worse. Shapechange already on his list. Others situational. For a Beguiler, it gives some good summon options for fighting mind immunes and SR nos, a divination spell that he can't easily duplicate, and one of the top 3 spells in the game, that is often seen as a key to the high powered T1 game.

Where is the beguiler advantage there, if the sorc already can cast shapechange? Because the beguiler has an entire list of existing level 9 spells, including Time Stop and Foresight. He can match the sorcerer's one broken spell more easily than the sorcerer can match his 6, and get a lot more utility lower down the list besides.

Karl Aegis

2015-05-26, 06:52 PM

What are we using for books? Just Player's Handbook and Player's Handbook II, right? The only two books you're guaranteed to have when playing both classes in the same game.

Venger

2015-05-26, 06:56 PM

2 reasons, in fact.
1. JaronK made an error on what equivalent optimization is between these classes.
2. Groupthink. The phenomenon, well seen in this thread, wherein a dozen people state conventional wisdom, while citing misinformation and refusing to actually discuss specific examples.

If this is so OFFENSIVE to you, please stop arguing. Heck, maybe you are right. It could be, although I doubt it. The point of the thread was to show a level by level comparison. What did it get?

"RAAAHHH! Sorcs are teh awesom! Beguilers only cast illusions!"

Fine. Show me or go away.

>posts detailed, well-reasoned response addressing each point

>response ignores it all and plays the galileo defense

I should have known better than to actually try to answer any of your questions.

This is why people are not acceding to your demands for a level by level breakdown. you will just ignore all their evidence because your mind is already made up about the conclusion you want to reach.

nedz, troacctid, and I have given you great amounts of specific examples, all of which you have proceeded to ignore.

we will leave you to your echo chamber since it's abundantly clear you don't need any of us to tell you that beguiler is better than sorcerer. I don't know what exactly this was, but I wouldn't call it an argument

AvatarVecna

2015-05-26, 07:03 PM

3.5 has too much content and too many combos to "prove" much of anything other than "casting is superior". Saying one caster is better than another is meaningless, because they all are worse than a kobold paladin who can summon Pazuzu at level 1 (IIRC). You want a specific build that you can match up against at any level of optimization? Fine: beat Khepri (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19299172&postcount=59). It's currently a sorcerer build, but it can actually be built with any full caster class, including beguiler. The only argument for it being a sorcerer build is that the hivemind casting is based on the Sorcerer. At that level of optimization, it's basically "Pun-Pun or GTFO", and that doesn't really teach anybody anything.

Beguilers don't have Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation normally; they have to spend resources to get it...resources that the Sorcerer can spend in different ways. If both of them get infinite feats (through one method or another), the Sorcerer can take Extra Spell to access their entire spell list, while the Beguiler is stuck...unless, of course, you're using the very broad interpretation that Extra Spell can let you access other lists. Of course, at that point, the sole advantage the Beguiler really had (more spells known) is gone, because now Sorcerers and Beguilers both know every spell.

Arguing every character level at every optimization level for two full caster classes is the kind of undertaking worthy of a doctorate thesis. I'm absolutely serious, proving beyond a doubt that one caster class is always superior to another of the same character level and optimization level is a thesis-worthy endeavor. When I said "I don't care enough to really prove it", it wasn't because I was lazy, it was because D&D 3.5 is just that complex and convoluted.

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 07:08 PM

Beguilers don't have Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation normally; they have to spend resources to get it...resources that the Sorcerer can spend in different ways. If both of them get infinite feats (through one method or another), the Sorcerer can take Extra Spell to access their entire spell list, while the Beguiler is stuck...unless, of course, you're using the very broad interpretation that Extra Spell can let you access other lists. Of course, at that point, the sole advantage the Beguiler really had (more spells known) is gone, because now Sorcerers and Beguilers both know every spell.

How does the sorcerer use Advanced Learning to get a different spell?

Why are we discussing infinite feats? Is that common in the games you play? If we each get 7 feats, and the beguiler can use a feat to add 9 spells known, and the sorc can't......

AvatarVecna

2015-05-26, 07:10 PM

How does the sorcerer use Advanced Learning to get a different spell?

Why are we discussing infinite feats? Is that common in the games you play? If we each get 7 feats, and the beguiler can use a feat to add 9 spells known, and the sorc can't......

I thought you said any optimization level. And I'm still not seeing a build that can beat Khepri.

nedz

2015-05-26, 07:11 PM

I think thats possible. I think it is a clear win for Beguiler through 8/9. Somewhere between 10 and 14 I THINK is where the Sorc actually pulls ahead on straight spell list comparison. But it is much less clear cut than the stock arguments make it. Both the Sorc and Beguiler are going to be looking for things like runestaves, for example, but the runestaff is going to be a lot more helpful for the beguiler than the Sorc, and the sorc list expanding feats are much worse than arcane disciple.
Runestaffs are about equal I think. Sorcerer's can access one Bloodline feat, which is again about equal, and also get into a number of PrCs which are harder for the Beguiler to enter.

The point of the thread was to show a level by level comparison. What did it get?

Fine. Show me or go away.

We got close to consensus about a mid-level cross-over.

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 07:19 PM

>posts detailed, well-reasoned response addressing each point

Dude, I'm typing as fast as I can. I also put food in my mouth and talk to my kids.

And as for most of your specific points, stating things like "how can a beguiler duplicate belkar's claws" doesn't actually say anything. A sorcerer has limited spells known. 11 at level 8. 20 at 12. 28 at 16. At what level is a Sorcerer actually going to be able to pull all these tricks. If you take Wings of Flurry at level 8, thats awesome, its a good spell. Not better than all my level 4 spells put together. But a good spell. It says nothing about when and if the sorcerer overtakes the beguiler.

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 07:20 PM

Runestaffs are about equal I think. Sorcerer's can access one Bloodline feat, which is again about equal, and also get into a number of PrCs which are harder for the Beguiler to enter.

We got close to consensus about a mid-level cross-over.

OK, does concensus agree Beguiler is better 1-7? Do we begin at 8 or at 10?

Brova

2015-05-26, 07:31 PM

AvatarVecna

2015-05-26, 07:32 PM

OK, does concensus agree Beguiler is better 1-7? Do we begin at 8 or at 10?

I'd probably say 8 is a good tipping point, but it's hardly "sorcerers are now better forever" so much as "they're about equal in most situations"; 4th level spells is where both some fairly useful stuff and some really broken stuff starts being readily available: Dimension Door, Fly, Locate Creature, and Stone Shape are all fairly useful, while Animate Dead, Polymorph, and Summon Monster IV can really let the person casting them give the middle finger to any semblance of balance if you use them right.

AvatarVecna

2015-05-26, 07:43 PM

@AvatarVecna

Props for the Worm reference (at least, I assume it's a Worm reference).

Now, on to the actual discussion.

First, people are underestimating charm person and charm monster. Those spells make it a DC 20 Diplomacy check to turn anything you can speak with into your minion forever. A Beguiler can make that check at level 2. At that point you actually stand a fairly good chance of grabbing a level 10 beatstick (DC 17 vs a Fighter 10's +4 will save), which is going to carry you up until you hit level 8, at which point you can charm a CR 26 Mountain Giant with a better than even success rate (DC 21 or 22 vs +10 will save). That's actually just flat better than polymorph. And you can totally grab more than one of those.

Second, I don't really understand the argument that Rainbow Servant means power "isn't coming from the Beguiler". The reason Rainbow Servant is good on a Beguiler is because of the Beguiler's (semi) unique spell-casting mechanic. For a Wizard or Sorcerer, the Rainbow Servant just makes you a worse Cleric or Favored Soul. For Beguiler it makes you a better Cleric.

Third, people are massively overstating the degree to which mindblank is a factor. It comes online at 15th level, doesn't come standard on anything from the MM, and only counters the Beguiler if he hasn't amassed an army of brainwashed minions. Using it basically amounts to the DM deciding to knock the Beguiler down a peg, which can happen to Sorcerers as well.

Yeah, it's a Worm reference; I felt inspired. On to the discussion!

1. As is mentioned often enough to warrant keeping in mind, Diplomacy does not make someone your minion unless you can turn them fanatic; it makes them your friend at best. Charm whatever already does that, and it can definitely be argued that your target's not going to appreciate the mind manipulation when the spell ends. Secondly, it's still not anything a Sorcerer couldn't do; Diplomacy isn't exactly hard to optimize if all you have to do is Charm them before employing it. Finally, it's a tactic that mostly just works on big brutes; that's all nice and fun in the early levels, when spells haven't really started packing a punch, but once your character level gets into the double digits, controlling a straight-up brute of any kind is hardly going to be of any help against a well-run caster. Of course, without specific builds, and a specific world to play them in, nobody's going to believe this argument, so whatever.

2. I actually think Rainbow Servant is a legit tactic for the Beguiler.

3. It's not just Mind Blank, it's Protection from Evil and its siblings. That's a first level Core spell available to Clerics, Sorcerers, Wizards, and many other classes that suppresses charm and dominate effects while it's active. An item of it is dirt-cheap, and is almost a must-have at the higher levels (if you can't have Mind Blank, which is still superior).

Brova

2015-05-26, 07:57 PM

1. As is mentioned often enough to warrant keeping in mind, Diplomacy does not make someone your minion unless you can turn them fanatic; it makes them your friend at best. Charm whatever already does that, and it can definitely be argued that your target's not going to appreciate the mind manipulation when the spell ends.

The SRD lists "protect, back up, heal, aid" as actions for a creature with an attitude of "helpful". Back up (as well as protect and aid to a lesser extent) seems to imply the kind of combat support you'd be asking for, and using charm at that kind of a CR discrepancy mitigates any risk for the charmed creature.

The rest of your argument is basically inserting mechanics to make up for the fact that diplomacy is broken. That's an eminently reasonable course of action because diplomacy is broken, but it has no particular place in a CharOP discussion - especially not if you're pointing to polymorph for the Sorcerer.

Secondly, it's still not anything a Sorcerer couldn't do; Diplomacy isn't exactly hard to optimize if all you have to do is Charm them before employing it.

Sure, it puts them at parity. Which is kind of the point. As long as you have access to something at a given power level, the number of things you have matters a lot less than JaronK seems to believe.

Finally, it's a tactic that mostly just works on big brutes; that's all nice and fun in the early levels, when spells haven't really started packing a punch, but once your character level gets into the double digits, controlling a straight-up brute of any kind is hardly going to be of any help against a well-run caster.

Depends on a variety of things. The big one is numbers. It's certainly true that a caster can probably beat a Mountain Giant, but the Beguiler could seriously get half a dozen of those in an afternoon. There are also a lot of bruiser monsters that have pretty good mobility powers, and some spellcasting monsters you might be able to get with optimized DCs.

3. It's not just Mind Blank, it's Protection from Evil and its siblings. That's a first level Core spell available to Clerics, Sorcerers, Wizards, and many other classes that suppresses charm and dominate effects while it's active. An item of it is dirt-cheap, and is almost a must-have at the higher levels (if you can't have Mind Blank, which is still superior).

Well, you don't typically fight Clerics, Sorcerers and Wizards. You typically fight monsters out of the monster manual, and they don't pack that. At the point where you start expecting to fight optimized NPCs who try to counter your tactics, it's probably fair to expect you to be grabbing some pretty hardcore minions.

jiriku

2015-05-26, 08:02 PM

I would say 6-10 is the range at which the sorcerer potentially catches up to the beguiler in versatility. Fundamentally, you can't pin it to a specific level. The crossover point depends on the choices made by the sorcerer player, and those choices are contingent upon player skill, group composition, campaign setting, sources allowed, and available time between game sessions.

Troacctid

2015-05-26, 08:07 PM

OK, does concensus agree Beguiler is better 1-7? Do we begin at 8 or at 10?

Well, you can build a Sorcerer to be better at low levels via ACFs, but that'll weaken you later on. For example, a 1st level Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with a dwarven warpike is probably going to kick more ass than a 1st level Beguiler.

First, people are underestimating charm person and charm monster. Those spells make it a DC 20 Diplomacy check to turn anything you can speak with into your minion forever.

Uh, I think you're overestimating them. Diplomacy is admittedly pretty strong, and Beguilers are better at it than Sorcerers, but it doesn't make anyone into your minion forever, and it doesn't stack with charm person, and it still allows a saving throw with a fairly low DC.

Brova

2015-05-26, 08:13 PM

Uh, I think you're overestimating them. Diplomacy is admittedly pretty strong, and Beguilers are better at it than Sorcerers, but it doesn't make anyone into your minion forever, and it doesn't stack with charm person, and it still allows a saving throw with a fairly low DC.

I'm sorry, what? Diplomacy doesn't have a duration, does stack with charm person, and has no save. Literally everything you've said is wrong.

Karl Aegis

2015-05-26, 08:19 PM

I'm sorry, what? Diplomacy doesn't have a duration, does stack with charm person, and has no save. Literally everything you've said is wrong.

Everyone has access to diplomacy and sorcerers can also get charm person. What is the point trying to be made?

SinsI

2015-05-26, 08:20 PM

At low-op level Beguiler wins because he automatically knows all his spells, unlike Sorcerer that has a disastrous floor power level.
At high-op Beguiler is Tier 1 via Rainbow Servant while the Sorcerer is still Tier 2, so Beguiler wins again.

Even if staying pure Beguiler, all he needs is to pick up Shadow Conjuration or Shadow Evocation spells via his Advanced Learning class feature to drastically improve his ability to deal with threats not included into his initial "I win" spell list.

So I think on all fronts Beguiler is better than the Sorcerer.

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 08:24 PM

Yeah, it's a Worm reference; I felt inspired. On to the discussion!

1. As is mentioned often enough to warrant keeping in mind, Diplomacy does not make someone your minion unless you can turn them fanatic; it makes them your friend at best. Charm whatever already does that, and it can definitely be argued that your target's not going to appreciate the mind manipulation when the spell ends. Secondly, it's still not anything a Sorcerer couldn't do; Diplomacy isn't exactly hard to optimize if all you have to do is Charm them before employing it. Finally, it's a tactic that mostly just works on big brutes; that's all nice and fun in the early levels, when spells haven't really started packing a punch, but once your character level gets into the double digits, controlling a straight-up brute of any kind is hardly going to be of any help against a well-run caster. Of course, without specific builds, and a specific world to play them in, nobody's going to believe this argument, so whatever.

I semi-agree.

Diplomacy is hard to optimize with 2 skill points per level. It can be done, but there is a significant resource cost. Its really one of those places where 8-12 skill points per level beat 2-4.

Diplomacy works on most anything, not just big brutes. Charms work better on big brutes, but it isn't too hard for beguiler save DCs to work against even casters.

I do not necessarily agree that Charm>long term minion in all games. Many games, but not all. It IS a brutally powerful resource, that can sideline many encounters, provide information, etc.

Personally, I think of RAW diplomancy as the silly counter to silly things like Planar Binding. Beguiler's are pretty good at acquiring thuddy minions, so are sorcerers. If the answer to every question becomes "I summon an outsider to do X" my answer to every question becomes "I diplomance someone into my slave and they do Y."

2. I actually think Rainbow Servant is a legit tactic for the Beguiler.

I agree, but a tactic for a different discussion. I think there is 0 question that Ranbow Beguilers(text over table) are high T1, and even table over text are low T1. Shadowcraft Beguilers are high T2 as well (Although they also make nice sorcs). And Sorcs, without question, have some excellent PRCs that they can enter.

Ultimately, though, thats an appendix. A footnote that says "beguiler is better for entering these 4 PRCs, and sorcerer for these 8." We could count PRCs (a clear win for Sorc I think). A dispute between the top level PRCs will have little actual relevance, I think, to Beguiler and Sorcerer. I suggest that we keep the primary discussion to the base classes, with occasional side notes, like that a one level dip in mindbender or any other full casting PRC supercharges the beguiler's advanced learning feature.

3. It's not just Mind Blank, it's Protection from Evil and its siblings. That's a first level Core spell available to Clerics, Sorcerers, Wizards, and many other classes that suppresses charm and dominate effects while it's active. An item of it is dirt-cheap, and is almost a must-have at the higher levels (if you can't have Mind Blank, which is still superior).

Protection From Evil is helpful against Beguiler, but not really proof. It only stops control spells, not mind affecting. Anything I care about controlling with a charm, I can drop with other mind affecting spells, like mass whelm or deep slumber, then take their item.

Also, in any world where common enemies are packing custom magic items, you are looking at parties that have similar control over their equipment. Free selection of equipment helps beguiler much more than sorcerer.

Brova

2015-05-26, 08:25 PM

Everyone has access to diplomacy and sorcerers can also get charm person. What is the point trying to be made?

Basically, I disagree with the emphasis on versatility people have when talking about CharOp. If the Beguiler has a trick that is at whatever power level you care about, it is at that power level regardless of how many other tricks it doesn't have. The focus I've had on charmed armies is because people are talking about Sorcerer builds that abuse polymorph.

The normal (i.e. not game breaking) strategy of a Beguiler is just that you have a bunch of different spells which are awesome. It's a lot like being a Sorcerer, except easier.

Troacctid

2015-05-26, 08:31 PM

I'm sorry, what? Diplomacy doesn't have a duration, does stack with charm person, and has no save. Literally everything you've said is wrong.

1. Diplomacy doesn't make them your servant, it makes them your friend. That's not the same thing.
2. Charmed creatures count as friendly as long as they're under the effect of the spell, regardless of what their attitude would otherwise be. Changing their attitude with Diplomacy is pointless.
3. Charm person allows a saving throw.

Bad Wolf

2015-05-26, 08:35 PM

Yup, the age of the Caster Kings has arrived.

The thing about Shadow Conjuration is that Sorcers can get it too. And Planar Binding gets you about every other spell on that list. Beguilers are awesome, but they miss a lot of the awesome utility spells, such as Wish, Limited Wish, Planar Binding line, teleportation spells, Summon Monster, and a lot more. And they don't get much support out of the PHB2.

Gnaeus

2015-05-26, 08:36 PM

Everyone has access to diplomacy and sorcerers can also get charm person. What is the point trying to be made?

Sorcs are much worse at diplomacy than beguilers. Its nothing like a level playing field. Yes, Sorcs can take charm person. Its a good spell. Its also one less trick they have to play with in their list of what they can do and beguilers can't. Every time a sorcerer takes a spell from the beguiler list as one of his 3, 4, or 5 spells known of that level, it makes the beguiler feel better about comparing his other 10 spells against the handful the sorc has left.

Brova

2015-05-26, 08:42 PM

1. Diplomacy doesn't make them your servant, it makes them your friend. That's not the same thing.

I've responded to this above. What exactly diplomacy does isn't entirely clear, "Protect, back up, heal, aid" is a very broad and not particularly precise mandate. Following you on your quest to kill all of the mind flayers certainly involves aiding you and backing you up, but so does voting for you for class council.

2. Charmed creatures count as friendly as long as they're under the effect of the spell, regardless of what their attitude would otherwise be. Changing their attitude with Diplomacy is pointless.

That's interesting. I'm not particularly sure it matters though. Let's assume your interpretation is correct. The creature is treated as friendly regardless of whatever it's attitude normally is. You cast charm person on the Orc Berserker, taking it from Hostile to Friendly (Hostile). Now make your diplomacy check, upgrading it to Helpful. Except that gets overwrote with Friendly, so now it's Friendly (Helpful) and still an ally when the charm wears off.

3. Charm person allows a saving throw.

Yep, but will saves scale pretty poorly. An 8th level Beguiler is looking at DC 21 or 22 with charm monster (10 + 4 base Int + 1 race Int + 1 Int increases + 1 Int item + 4 spell level, maybe +1 from Cloaked Casting or Spell Focus). A hill giant (a vaguely level appropriate bruiser) has a will save of +4, which means it saves maybe 20% of the time.

Troacctid

2015-05-26, 09:01 PM

That's interesting. I'm not particularly sure it matters though. Let's assume your interpretation is correct. The creature is treated as friendly regardless of whatever it's attitude normally is. You cast charm person on the Orc Berserker, taking it from Hostile to Friendly (Hostile). Now make your diplomacy check, upgrading it to Helpful. Except that gets overwrote with Friendly, so now it's Friendly (Helpful) and still an ally when the charm wears off.

You can make the case that the attitude they're "treated as" is different from their "actual" attitude; under that interpretation, though, your Diplomacy check would be an attempt to change their "actual" attitude from Hostile to Helpful, which is the same as if you hadn't charmed them. Either that, or you'd have to attempt to change their "treated as" attitude, which would fail, since they're treated as friendly regardless of the result. It's not super clear. (Personally, I prefer the latter interpretation.) In any case, though, they shouldn't stack.

Karl Aegis

2015-05-26, 09:03 PM

Sorcs are much worse at diplomacy than beguilers. Its nothing like a level playing field. Yes, Sorcs can take charm person. Its a good spell. Its also one less trick they have to play with in their list of what they can do and beguilers can't. Every time a sorcerer takes a spell from the beguiler list as one of his 3, 4, or 5 spells known of that level, it makes the beguiler feel better about comparing his other 10 spells against the handful the sorc has left.

Being worse doesn't matter that much. Being able to pass the check is what matters, it doesn't matter if you beat the DC by 0 or by 1,000,000, it does the same thing.

Brova

2015-05-26, 09:06 PM

You can make the case that the attitude they're "treated as" is different from their "actual" attitude; under that interpretation, though, your Diplomacy check would be an attempt to change their "actual" attitude from Hostile to Helpful,

Nope. They are being treated as helpful, which includes how diplomacy works.

Sir Chuckles

2015-05-26, 09:31 PM

Yup, the age of the Caster Kings has arrived.

Does this mean we're about to get a flood of images? I don't think I can handle that.
That makes me wonder what images a Beguiler would bring about.
Is David Bowie a Sorcerer or would he be a Beguiler?

I just don't know what to believe anymore.

Phaederkiel

2015-05-26, 09:40 PM

In my personal experience (which is only up to lvl 13), Beguiler is a much better class.

Sorcerers are so horribly gimped with their awful skillpoints and perpetual lack of spells known.

for example, in my campaign at the moment, we have a beguiler (lvl2 with LA+1 because of actively trying not to be OP) and a Sorcerer lvl 3.

The sorcerer took sleep and shield as his 1st lvl spells, and has a wand of Mage armor. The beguiler walks circles around him. And that includes both combat AND social encounters so far.

As long as skillpoints are at all useful, I think that the beguiler has a better standing. That may, depending on the DMs style, be up til lvl 12 or so.
I for example, as a DM, make quite an effort to put as many skillchecks as possible into my game, because that will slightly balance roguish types against mage types.

Bad Wolf

2015-05-26, 10:03 PM

At around ten-ish, sorcerer pulls ahead. Lot of good spells, such as arcane fusion and Planar Binding.

Story

2015-05-27, 12:34 AM

If Diplomancy were allowed, Marshall and Binder would be the best classes in the game.

Does anyone actually let people cart around loads of NPCs to do the fighting for them? And what share of the treasure and XP are they getting?

SinsI

2015-05-27, 01:05 AM

Does anyone actually let people cart around loads of NPCs to do the fighting for them? And what share of the treasure and XP are they getting?

Depends on the method used to acquire them. Free-willed hirelings directly eat treasure and XP, dominated NPCs are no different from animal companions or familiars and thus don't get any.

Story

2015-05-27, 01:41 AM

It's a shame that Charm Person/Diplomacy isn't domination then.

nedz

2015-05-27, 04:07 AM

I actually think that the Rainbow Beguiler is beyond T1, but be that as it may, the trick only comes online at level 15 (assuming text trumps table). The tier system specifically looks at the level range 5-15, also Sorcerers have plenty of high level — high OP tricks too. Also Build > Class.

It's quite interesting to look at other classes in the round.

A Bard is likely better at the Charm Person/Diplomacy trick if only because it is more likely to win the opposed Cha checks. Does this make a Bard T2 ?

Warmages are very similar to Beguilers in that almost all of the same optimisation tricks apply. IIRC a party of Warmages won the GenCon tourney several years on the trot, but that was run at level 8. I think people have established that Sorcerers make better blasters at levels beyond this ? I suspect that the cross-over point is similar here too.

Sorcerer 1 > Wizard 1 because they have 4 spells from 2 as opposed to 2 from 2. Wizard 3 > Sorcerer 3 though and Wizards pull away thereafter. The crossover point here is around level 2.

The point of the tier system is one of the progression series: Linear Fighter versus quadratic Wizard etc. The fact that there exists a cross-over point, at levels 8-10 - whatever, indicates that the Sorcerer is of a higher tier.

Now maybe we need a tier between T2 and T3 which accommodates the fixed list casters, IDK ?

SinsI

2015-05-27, 05:41 AM

If Rainbow Servant was according to table it would be worse than Mystic Theurge.
Also, don't forget that it grants Domains (and Wings), so the profit for Beguiler comes online right from the start.

Phaederkiel

2015-05-27, 06:30 AM

I think that rainbow servant is clearly MEANT to work as the table indicates, and no normal dm would allow it to retain full casting.
This is quite similar to a swordsage's 6x6+int skillpoints at first lvl, an obvious writing (or rather copy-and-pasting) error.

And I do not think that the table-RS is worse than a mystic theurge. I think it is quite a big bit better for a lot of lvls. And the capstone is crazy, even if you sacrifice your 9th lvl spells for it.

nedz

2015-05-27, 06:41 AM

Crake

2015-05-27, 06:53 AM

This entire thread swings the way of beguiler if the DM allows the UMDing of knowstones/runestaves like I did for my player's beguiler :smalltongue:

nedz

2015-05-27, 07:19 AM

This entire thread swings the way of beguiler if the DM allows the UMDing of knowstones/runestaves like I did for my player's beguiler :smalltongue:

A Sorcerer can use these too so that's even, though the Beguiler still has to make a DC 20 UMD check — with at least a 5% chance of locking the item for 24 hours each time they do this. Also this is a piece of equipment not a class feature.

Gnaeus

2015-05-27, 07:25 AM

A Bard is likely better at the Charm Person/Diplomacy trick if only because it is more likely to win the opposed Cha checks. Does this make a Bard T2 ?

Not in a vacuum, no. (Because you can't use diplomacy in a vacuum. No sound!). But it isn't reflective of play to divorce classes from skills either.

Diplomacy, high op, RAW, is a nigh unstoppable minion making machine. No. I don't think this is very reflective of actual play at most tables. But I don't think that using Planar Binding to generate infinite wishes is very reflective of actual play at most tables either, and despite that it is sometimes used as an argument for game breaking power.

Diplomacy, low op, RAI is still a useful ability. What do you do when an angry archmage teleports in front of your party and starts bitching you out for murdering his nephew the evil priest in the last dungeon? I roll diplomacy may be the best answer in the game. What do you use when trying to make your patron a little bit more supportive of your group? Diplomacy.

We like to think that Spells > Skills. And they do. Spells are often better. But that does not mean that the Beguiler's skills are meaningless in a comparison of the classes.

Beguiler and Sorcerer, alone, are each sneaking through a castle on a secret mission. Both cast Invisibility. The sorcerer took it, because it is a good spell. But the beguiler also has Level+3 ranks in Move Silently. In this situation, his skills make the beguiler better.

Search + Trapfinding is better than a level 2 cleric spell (find traps) at will.

At some point, we are going to be talking in detail about Polymorph and Planar Binding (Both awesome spells). And I am going to call BS on the Sorcerer. You don't know a nightmare from a succubus without Knowledge(planes). Polymorph is still a good spell without a stack of knowledges, but falls FAR short of its optimization potential. Sorc may (probably should) have good Knowledge Arcana, which helps a lot here. But if he does, it really undercuts the argument that he is using Bluff in social encounters, or UMD. He's only got 2 skill points + int, and one of those will almost certainly be Concentration.

Warmages are very similar to Beguilers in that almost all of the same optimisation tricks apply. IIRC a party of Warmages won the GenCon tourney several years on the trot, but that was run at level 8. I think people have established that Sorcerers make better blasters at levels beyond this ? I suspect that the cross-over point is similar here too.

I would put it a little higher for beguilers. I would agree that there is a cross over point. Where it tends to hit is important.

The point of the tier system is one of the progression series: Linear Fighter versus quadratic Wizard etc. The fact that there exists a cross-over point, at levels 8-10 - whatever, indicates that the Sorcerer is of a higher tier.

Does it? Why?

Tier system is weighted 6-15, then 1-5, then 16-20. If Beguiler is better 1-9, equal 10-11, and worse 12-20, each class is better roughly half the game. Each class is better in about half of the part the tier system weighs most heavily, and beguiler is better in the part that is weighted second most. That looks a heck of a lot like parity to me.

Arguably, as SinsI pointed out earlier, it is worse than that. Sorcerer is better in the part of the game where no high op player is likely to be either a Sorcerer or a Beguiler, but will instead be a T1 or high T2 PRC. Low op, the beguiler wins hands down at most levels, since the handful of awesomesauce spells that the sorcerer picks purely by accident will not often beat the versatility of the Beguilers full list.

A Sorcerer can use these too so that's even, though the Beguiler still has to make a DC 20 UMD check — with at least a 5% chance of locking the item for 24 hours each time they do this. Also this is a piece of equipment not a class feature.

Disagree. Not remotely even.
1. The sorcerer is just adding spells known. The beguiler already crushes the sorcerer on spells known. The beguiler just needs to plug a few holes. The addition of a handful of SR no combat spells helps the beguiler disproportionally to the sorcerer.
2. What if it isn't a runestaff? What if it is a domain staff? Suddenly we are comparing the sorcerer's inability to use the item, with the beguiler adding one new spell per level.
3. A beguiler, with a 12 Cha, will autosucceed on that check at level 15 with no resource expenditure but skill points. Depending on rulings, that could be much lower. (example: can I take a masterwork UMD tool? I think this is borderline, I wouldn't allow it. But I've seen dumber masterwork tools in play, and its RAW legal. That puts autosuccess at level 13, which is really when beguiler needs the help.)
4. Tier system by default is not assuming specific gear. It kind of has to. But if we have wandered into the world where custom protection from evil items are commonplace among NPCs, arguing that the beguiler can't get access to any of the dozens of items that address class problems rings hollow to me. It isn't like he is specifically needing one thing. Almost any runestaff or domain staff, most normal staves, many wands, raiment of the 4, at some point, it becomes less like assuming that the fighter has an Adamantine Spiked Chain +1 of tripping, and more like assuming that the fighter can find a magic weapon. He isn't even without resources to get them. As a full caster, he can take a crafting feat and work with any friendly caster who isn't another beguiler and he will wind up with a fix of one or more class problems.

Studoku

2015-05-27, 08:29 AM

Not quite: It's the Cleric Spell Access capstone which is broken on a fixed list caster. Text trumps table just makes it +4 spellcasting levels better; which, while not to be sniffed at, doesn't raise them even 1 tier.
Would it still be tier 1 with the table interpretation, since the Beguiler would be 2 spell levels behind and never get ninth level spells?

Bad Wolf

2015-05-27, 09:20 AM

A 20th level sorcerer still has access to Wish and Gate. And Shape change.

Gnaeus

2015-05-27, 09:30 AM

A 20th level sorcerer still has access to Wish and Gate. And Shape change.

What a 20th level anything can do is much less important than what a 6-15th level anything can do.

With 3 feats spent, a Beguiler 20 also has access to Wish, Gate and Shape Change, as well as Time Stop, Foresight, Programmed Amnesia or Mindrape and several other 9th level spells. Actually, except for the Mindrape/PA, he gets all that at 18, with the advanced learning spell at 19.

SinsI

2015-05-27, 09:34 AM

A 20th level sorcerer still has access to Wish and Gate. And Shape change.

And 19th level Beguiler can have Ice Assassin.

AvatarVecna

2015-05-27, 09:35 AM

What a 20th level anything can do is much less important than what a 6-15th level anything can do.

With 3 feats spent, a Beguiler 20 also has access to Wish, Gate and Shape Change, as well as Time Stop, Foresight, Programmed Amnesia or Mindrape and several other 9th level spells. Actually, except for the Mindrape/PA, he gets all that at 18, with the advanced learning spell at 19.

What 3 feats are those?

Gnaeus

2015-05-27, 09:37 AM

What 3 feats are those?

Arcane Disciple. Arcane Disciple. and Arcane disciple.

Brova

2015-05-27, 09:40 AM

A 20th level sorcerer still has access to Wish and Gate. And Shape change.

Yes, if your DM lets you use game breaking spells, the game will break. Now, the Beguiler can break it earlier with charm person and the candle of invocation is an item with a price in gold.

AvatarVecna

2015-05-27, 09:44 AM

Arcane Disciple. Arcane Disciple. and Arcane disciple.

You found a deity who has domains granting Wish, Shapechange, and Gate? How interesting. Which one, and which domains.

Gnaeus

2015-05-27, 09:48 AM

You found a deity who has domains granting Wish, Shapechange, and Gate? How interesting. Which one, and which domains.

Fair enough. However, there are multiple domains that grant Wish, Shapechange, gate and Miracle. Lets say I can only get 2.

Arcane Disciple, Arcane Disciple, and Ancestral Relic.

Or maybe I can only find one.

Arcane Disciple, Ancestral Relic.

Now he has 3 gamebreaking spells at 20. I have 2 of them, + Ice Assassin (Thanks SinsI!), Foresight and Time Stop. All by 19. Again, I can't feel too bad about that.

And we are still talking about the least important point in the game (per tier system) and acting like it is the only point which matters.

Yes, if your DM lets you use game breaking spells, the game will break. Now, the Beguiler can break it earlier with charm person and the candle of invocation is an item with a price in gold.

This is also true.

dextercorvia

2015-05-27, 09:55 AM

Let's look at the Beguiler's 1st level spell list. At first level you have 2 good redundant spells (Sleep and Color Spray count as 1 for the most part, maybe 1.5 if you are generous). Then you have Charm Person, which is great for some campaigns, and at low levels when you are likely to run into goblins or orcs. Finally you have Silent Image, which is the only spell of these that you will likely use at higher levels. Of the remaining list, you have spells which might, just might be useful once before you hit level 4.

How does a Sorcerer Stack up against that? Well, by default they know 2 spells at 1st, but gain a 3rd at 2nd, while a Beguiler's spells known list is going to remain flat until level 4. In addition, as smart PO choice for Sorcerer is to pick up Apprentice Spellcaster -- that is an extra spell known at level 1, and allows quite a bit of flexibility in trading out Sleep or Color Spray for Nerveskitter or something else when 1st level slots shouldn't be used for attacking anymore. Hidden Talent can be used (with Cha synergy) to pick up utility like Dimension Hop or an Attack like Psionic Grease, both of which remain relevant for quite awhile. The Apprentice feat dovetails nicely with a Bloodline Feat (Aquatic Fey or Penumbral are probably the two best out of the box) because you can trade out the spells known for more useful ones.

Granted, if the Sorcerer is getting feats, the Beguiler should, too. But, the Beguiler is stuck with the 9 spells learned either from Arcane Disciple or a Bloodline, and they have no way to customize those lists. So, by level 3 the Sorcerer has 4-5 spells known chosen exactly for the job. If the Beguiler picks domains or bloodlines to perfectly augment his 1st level selection, he is most likely gimping some of his other spell levels. No domain or bloodline is perfect.

1st Level:
charm person, This has utitlity beyond level 4, and is likely to be on a Sorcerer's known list past that point.
color spray, Useless after level 4, and redundant with sleep. Most wizards won't even take both.
comprehend languages, Campaign specific
detect secret doors, redundant with skill use
disguise self, Situationally useful utility spell. Replicable with an inexpensive magic item past level 4.
expeditious retreat, If you need to run away Swift ER is probably better.
hypnotism, Pretty worthless
mage armor, Yes, a midlevel sorcerer will probably want this, but beguilers can wear Mithril Chain Shirts, so about the time the duration for this would last you for a significant part of the day, you can afford not to use it.
obscuring mist, Situationally useful
rouse*, Seriously? How many times has this been needed?
silent image, Awesome spell.
sleep, Useless after about level 4, and redundant with Color Spray
undetectable alignment, not even situationally useful. This is the kind of spell you buy on a scroll for when you absolutely have to sneak into some place.
whelm*. Should be called Underwhelmed.

Edit: So while the Beguiler is probably better to play at level 1, it is almost certainly not because of the spells.

Karl Aegis

2015-05-27, 10:00 AM

AvatarVecna

2015-05-27, 10:02 AM

Fair enough. However, there are multiple domains that grant Wish, Shapechange, gate and Miracle. Lets say I can only get 2.

Arcane Disciple, Arcane Disciple, and Ancestral Relic.

Or maybe I can only find one.

Arcane Disciple, Ancestral Relic.

Now he has 3 gamebreaking spells at 20. I have 2 of them, + Ice Assassin (Thanks SinsI!), Foresight and Time Stop. All by 19. Again, I can't feel too bad about that.

Yeah, there's some ridiculous BS out there in 3.5; still, a Sorcerer can Ancestral Relic as well, and there's other ways of getting extra spells known. Draconic Heritage (RotD) grants some, although some choices are definitely better than others.

BTW, that Arcane Disciple limitation is another thing my Khepri build cheeses its way around; each swarm in the hivemind worships a different God, until there's at least one swarm for each, then they repeat; with essentially infinite feats, each swarm can get Arcane Disciple for every domain, and Extra spell enough times to get every spell from them.

AvatarVecna

2015-05-27, 10:05 AM

Sorcerers also get access to domain spells along with their respective domain granted power keyed off their primary casting stat: charisma. Having access to the same tricks does not make one class better.

The trick with Arcane Disciple is that it adds the spells to your class spell list, not your spells known, and Beguilers know all spells on their class spell list. It's definitely a better option for Beguilers than Sorcerers, although it means those are feat spent only on getting some (possibly redundant) spells known. No domain is just completely full of sunshine and rainbows.

nedz

2015-05-27, 10:19 AM

The trick with Arcane Disciple is that it adds the spells to your class spell list, not your spells known, and Beguilers know all spells on their class spell list. It's definitely a better option for Beguilers than Sorcerers, although it means those are feat spent only on getting some (possibly redundant) spells known. No domain is just completely full of sunshine and rainbows.

Also

It's Wisdom based, which makes you MAD
You can only cast each spell 1/day (so no spamming)
You need a patron deity and are limited to their domains

You do not get the Granted power. It does give you more options though.
Domains are much better obtained via PrCs.

Gnaeus

2015-05-27, 10:30 AM

How does a Sorcerer Stack up against that? Well, by default they know 2 spells at 1st, but gain a 3rd at 2nd, while a Beguiler's spells known list is going to remain flat until level 4. In addition, as smart PO choice for Sorcerer is to pick up Apprentice Spellcaster -- that is an extra spell known at level 1, and allows quite a bit of flexibility in trading out Sleep or Color Spray for Nerveskitter or something else when 1st level slots shouldn't be used for attacking anymore. Hidden Talent can be used (with Cha synergy) to pick up utility like Dimension Hop or an Attack like Psionic Grease, both of which remain relevant for quite awhile. The Apprentice feat dovetails nicely with a Bloodline Feat (Aquatic Fey or Penumbral are probably the two best out of the box) because you can trade out the spells known for more useful ones.

I won't take Arcane Disciple until 6. It doesn't help me much until then, and thats when I can meet the requirements without resource expenditure. Depending on deity, I will take it 2-3 times between 6 and 15.

Nah. At level 1, I'll match your Apprentice Spellcaster and bloodline feat with Heighten Spell & Versatile Spellcaster. What level 1 spell are you going to get that matches my entire level 2 list? This isn't really even a feat tax for me. Heighten spell helps me get into Rainbow Servant AND Killer Gnome, and we will both want Versatile Spellcaster.

1st Level:
charm person, This has utitlity beyond level 4, and is likely to be on a Sorcerer's known list past that point.
color spray, Useless after level 4, and redundant with sleep. Most wizards won't even take both..

Dispute that last. Sleep is longer range, 1 round casting time. Color spray is a good spell for when mooks get in your face. Not really the same use at all.

comprehend languages, Campaign specific
detect secret doors, redundant with skill use

Slightly. Yes, search duplicates this somewhat. But search is slow. If you need to check a wide area for secret doors quickly, this is nice. It is a better spell for you than me, I'll admit, but thats only because I am likely to get search as a maxed skill, and being able to do something for free beats paying for it most of the time.

disguise self, Situationally useful utility spell. Replicable with an inexpensive magic item past level 4.

Are we cherry picking our items now? Because there are some I would like.

expeditious retreat, If you need to run away Swift ER is probably better.

Maybe. Everyone should have a run away spell, and this isn't a bad one. Combine with Power Word Pain to no save kite higher level bosses to unconsciousness.

mage armor, Yes, a midlevel sorcerer will probably want this, but beguilers can wear Mithril Chain Shirts, so about the time the duration for this would last you for a significant part of the day, you can afford not to use it.

You admit you are ultimately going to be spending a spell known to copy it. Sure, as a beguiler, I will never cast it after first level. But only because my base class abilities include one (light armor use) that happens to be worth a first level spell known and a couple of first level spells cast. Not really a win for you. I'm glad I have it in case I want to do crafting later. Its a prereq for something. Edit: Make that rarely. I cast Mage Armor anyway on days when I am expecting incorporeals.

obscuring mist, Situationally useful

I like this spell. nice battlefield control for a level 1. Not mind affecting.

rouse*, Seriously? How many times has this been needed?

Never. Got me there.

silent image, Awesome spell.
undetectable alignment, not even situationally useful. This is the kind of spell you buy on a scroll for when you absolutely have to sneak into some place.

Agreed. Still, thats one less scroll to buy.

whelm*. Should be called Underwhelmed.

Weak, but not useless. Mostly only going to be seen when allies are already beating down a target.

Also

It's Wisdom based, which makes you MAD
You can only cast each spell 1/day (so no spamming)
You need a patron deity and are limited to their domains

Only slightly MAD. 14 starting wisdom will generally more than cover it.

1/day is a limit, but I still have more spells than a sorc. I only need extra spells when it is something I can't already handle with my list.

I'm picking my deity, right? There's a ton of good domains. Its not hard to find one with 2.
Example: Obad Hai: He gets Animal and Air. Now I have some good thuddy summons, a divination spell, Animal Shapes & Shapechange, a flight method, a decent blasty spell, Control Weather. Thats a big chunk of holes filled in 2 feats, and Air isn't even one of the best domains.

Chronos

2015-05-27, 10:43 AM

Put it this way: A first-level sorcerer only knows two spells. Which two? If I were playing a 1st-level sorcerer and took Charm Person and Color Spray, nobody would say I was doing it wrong. Likewise, if I took Silent Image or Sleep instead of one of those two. A sorcerer with those spells is a decent sorcerer. But a sorcerer with those spells is also very definitely worse than a beguiler.

Now, those aren't the only spell options for a sorcerer. A sorcerer might also take Grease, or Magic Missile, or Burning Hands, and still do pretty well. But those aren't massively better than Charm Person and Color Spray. They're about comparable. It's still not enough to catapult the sorcerer past the beguiler knowing all his spells, plus the better chassis and other class features.

dextercorvia

2015-05-27, 10:53 AM

I won't take Arcane Disciple until 6. It doesn't help me much until then, and thats when I can meet the requirements without resource expenditure. Depending on deity, I will take it 2-3 times between 6 and 15.

Nah. At level 1, I'll match your Apprentice Spellcaster and bloodline feat with Heighten Spell & Versatile Spellcaster. What level 1 spell are you going to get that matches my entire level 2 list? This isn't really even a feat tax for me. Heighten spell helps me get into Rainbow Servant AND Killer Gnome, and we will both want Versatile Spellcaster.

Early access to level 2 spells is considerably higher OP than I presented you with. This is going to escalate quickly. Aside from that, at level 1 you can pull of that trick once or maybe twice if you want no 1st level spells left for your other encounters. I'd rather have my choice of the 4 best 1st level spells and a casting for each combat than the ability to cast a 2nd level spell twice and then be tapped out for the day.

Versatile Spellcaster is on my 'nice to have, but not necessary' list. You just made it your central trick. I thought we were comparing the two base classes. Once you start PrCing, the benefits of your Chassis are almost completely mitigated.

Gnaeus

2015-05-27, 11:24 AM

Early access to level 2 spells is considerably higher OP than I presented you with. This is going to escalate quickly. Aside from that, at level 1 you can pull of that trick once or maybe twice if you want no 1st level spells left for your other encounters. I'd rather have my choice of the 4 best 1st level spells and a casting for each combat than the ability to cast a 2nd level spell twice and then be tapped out for the day.

Is it? You picked 2 feats, from different splats. I picked one splat feat and a feat from core. Both are feats that will help me throughout my career. Heighten Spell is even recommended in the sorcerer guide that was referenced earlier. It isn't my fault if my base class has an advantage that yours doesn't. Looks like one of those areas where beguiler is better than sorcerer to me.

If we want to wander through the world of splats for feats, I have lots I like. Darkstalker is awesome. If I am soloing, how about Sacred Vow and Vow of Nonviolence, for +4 DC for my sleep and color spray and virtually every other spell I will ever cast ever. Song of the Dead lets my spells hit my class' biggest enemy. Earth Spell works nicely with Heighten, and is a prereq. I don't even have to take 2 feats. How about Darkstalker and Sun Elf. +2 Int and a pile of abilities won't hurt me.

Versatile Spellcaster is on my 'nice to have, but not necessary' list. You just made it your central trick. I thought we were comparing the two base classes. Once you start PrCing, the benefits of your Chassis are almost completely mitigated.

My central trick? I just took 2 good level 1 feats. I don't have to use it at all. As you yourself pointed out, some of my level 1 spells will become obsolete. My level 2 list is pretty fantastic.

Sure. I'm just saying that Heighten and Versatile Spellcaster are feats that a large % of beguilers will take, once you are in the level where you are searching splats for optimum feats, and since can't even find which book your 2 feats are in with a google search, I think we're there.

dextercorvia

2015-05-27, 11:40 AM

Is it? You picked 2 feats, from different splats. I picked one splat feat and a feat from core. Both are feats that will help me throughout my career. Heighten Spell is even recommended in the sorcerer guide that was referenced earlier. It isn't my fault if my base class has an advantage that yours doesn't. Looks like one of those areas where beguiler is better than sorcerer to me.

Disingenuous. Gaining spells two levels early throughout your career is considered by many to be beyond Practical Optimization. It doesn't matter where the feats come from, it has to do with the effect. Candle of Invocation is core, but using one to gate something with Wish is TO complete.

My central trick? I just took 2 good level 1 feats. I don't have to use it at all. As you yourself pointed out, some of my level 1 spells will become obsolete. My level 2 list is pretty fantastic.

Sure. I'm just saying that Heighten and Versatile Spellcaster are feats that a large % of beguilers will take, once you are in the level where you are searching splats for optimum feats, and since can't even find which book your 2 feats are in with a google search, I think we're there.

DMGII and Dragon Compendium.

Gnaeus

2015-05-27, 12:10 PM

Disingenuous. Gaining spells two levels early throughout your career is considered by many to be beyond Practical Optimization. It doesn't matter where the feats come from, it has to do with the effect. Candle of Invocation is core, but using one to gate something with Wish is TO complete.

It is indeed part of the problem. Equivalent optimization is very hard to quantify between any two people. Personally, where I draw the line between PO and TO in my games would be when he tried to use it for early entry to some PRC. But people give that advice here as practical advice every day. So it is clearly PO at many tables. I don't think spending 2 feats for early spell access is very analogous to Candle of Invocation abuse.

I think where the feats come from is a better standard than the one many people use, which is how many books does it include. I would not assume any given table to have DMG2, Dragon Compendium, or Races of the Dragon. Which to me indicates higher opti fu for those feats. I would expect that they are playing with Complete Divine, an early release book intended for player use. Thats part of why I don't think Arcane Disciple is very high op.

I will admit that Versatile and Heighten is high op by my best definition, in that there is a lot of synergy between those feats, such that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, which to me is a hallmark of high optimization. Still, they are both great feats, recommended in every guide I've seen, so even if the DM denies using them for early spell access, I'm still going to be delighted I have them at level 4. Or, as mentioned, I have lots of other feat combos available as a level 1 human, or, if your two feats are actually level 1 and 3 feats, a lot more.

Ger. Bessa

2015-05-27, 12:56 PM

It has been asked already, but the books available impact a lot on the sorcerer's power.

The limits of both classes give each class tools that are unusable by the other. Runestaves do nothing for beguilers and break the spell known limit of sorcerers, but as equipment, is subject to DM approval or ancient relic. It's also a tax on WBL (but not a big one).

Arcane disciple is a feat tax for beguilers (and an ability tax on wis) and is pretty much useless for sorcerers (can still grab divine power for gishing I guess). Same for rainbow servant, wich can be entered at lv2 and grants cleric spell access at lv11. Iot7V then makes a good topper btw.

I've seen "with unlimited feat and spells known nothing makes the beguiler as good as the sorcerer" on the second page, that's so absurd it hurts. That was the only advantage of the sorc over the beguiler. If they are put on the same level for spells, beguilers just have a better chassis.

On the size of the spell list, the only way for a sorcerer to benefit from it is UMD and magic items (runestaves coming first). Otherwise they can not boast this versatility. Without a runestaff, a sorcerer doesn't get DD at lv8 because he takes polymorph (or the reverse). Orb of fire, Wings of flurry and/or enervation comes only later. RDF, and other defensive/utimity/buffs even later, and in the end he'll ever have only four of those. Teleport takes a fifth level spell known. Arcane fusion is a way to break action economy at the cost of spells known. Same for arcane spellsurge. If you want a sorcerer to use those, it'll make him a one trick pony.

So if you let a sorcerer break this limit by spending a lot of WBL in wands/scrolls so can the beguiler who has UMD as a class skill and skill points to spare.

(Please do not speak of "making such dc 20 on a class skill check" as an issue when you plan to go incantatrix with your sorcerer)

And if you let a sorcerer bring his ancient relic runestaff in the argument, you can't really take rainbow servant away from the beguiler either.

I'm not saying that beguiler is stronger than sorcerer. Anybody can have wet TO dreams about the class he wants. Beguiler is just a better built class (with a game designer that didn't hate it from the start).

And a beguiler is probably better at playing with your mind.

nedz

2015-05-27, 01:57 PM

The point of the tier system is one of the progression series: Linear Fighter versus quadratic Wizard etc. The fact that there exists a cross-over point, at levels 8-10 - whatever, indicates that the Sorcerer is of a higher tier.

Does it? Why?

Because that's the fundamental structure of the tier system.

1/day is a limit, but I still have more spells than a sorc. I only need extra spells when it is something I can't already handle with my list.

I'm picking my deity, right? There's a ton of good domains. Its not hard to find one with 2.
Example: Obad Hai: He gets Animal and Air. Now I have some good thuddy summons, a divination spell, Animal Shapes & Shapechange, a flight method, a decent blasty spell, Control Weather. Thats a big chunk of holes filled in 2 feats, and Air isn't even one of the best domains.
Earlier you were claiming that Arcane Disciple allowed you to handle all manner of threats. Well yes, but the reality is that, even if you picked the right domains, the second time you meet the same type of threat in a day — you are hosed. Not only is this is quite common, normal even, in actual play it places a restriction on the kind of threats you can actually counter in a real game.

Troacctid

2015-05-27, 02:03 PM

Warmages are very similar to Beguilers in that almost all of the same optimisation tricks apply. IIRC a party of Warmages won the GenCon tourney several years on the trot, but that was run at level 8. I think people have established that Sorcerers make better blasters at levels beyond this ? I suspect that the cross-over point is similar here too.

This one is pretty quantifiable: the main advantage Sorcerers have over Warmages in blasting is superior action economy via Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion, both of which come online at higher levels. There are a couple of good blasting spells that Warmages don't get but Sorcerers do, like Wings of Flurry and Unicorn Arrow, but that's more of a marginal improvement than a game-changer.

AmberVael

2015-05-27, 02:46 PM

Does it? Why?

Tier system is weighted 6-15, then 1-5, then 16-20. If Beguiler is better 1-9, equal 10-11, and worse 12-20, each class is better roughly half the game. Each class is better in about half of the part the tier system weighs most heavily, and beguiler is better in the part that is weighted second most. That looks a heck of a lot like parity to me.

Arguably, as SinsI pointed out earlier, it is worse than that. Sorcerer is better in the part of the game where no high op player is likely to be either a Sorcerer or a Beguiler, but will instead be a T1 or high T2 PRC. Low op, the beguiler wins hands down at most levels, since the handful of awesomesauce spells that the sorcerer picks purely by accident will not often beat the versatility of the Beguilers full list.

Well for one, consider this- a sorcerer doesn't have to beat a Beguiler to be competent at those lower levels. Just because a beguiler does better doesn't mean the Sorcerer isn't decent.

The beguiler, however, struggles more at the higher end. While at lower levels they get a lot of real gems alongside their core focus, the higher you go the shakier their spell list becomes, especially outside of their element- and even worse, the higher you go, the more counters there are to their focus. The pairing of true seeing, mind blank, or similar effects/immunities just shut down the beguiler's best spells, and at high levels they don't have many effective alternates.

In short, while the number of levels in which one is better in regards to the other might be equal, that doesn't necessarily indicate equal tier- the amount of difference in effectiveness can play a large role, and its arguable that the beguiler is substantially worse off in the higher levels than the sorcerer is at low levels.

nedz

2015-05-27, 02:58 PM

This one is pretty quantifiable: the main advantage Sorcerers have over Warmages in blasting is superior action economy via Arcane Spellsurge and Arcane Fusion, both of which come online at higher levels. There are a couple of good blasting spells that Warmages don't get but Sorcerers do, like Wings of Flurry and Unicorn Arrow, but that's more of a marginal improvement than a game-changer.

Well Sorcerer has this same advantage over Beguiler also. Arcane Fusion is 5th — Universal; is there any way for Beguiler to get that ?
Any Spell, Greater from the Spell domain; but it's not spamable if acquired from Arcane Disciple — which is kind of required for this trick.

Troacctid

2015-05-27, 03:02 PM

Also, the tier system tends to overvalue high-level power. It's one of its biggest flaws: it doesn't really account for games that run from, like, levels 1-8.

Gnaeus

2015-05-27, 03:11 PM

Well for one, consider this- a sorcerer doesn't have to beat a Beguiler to be competent at those lower levels. Just because a beguiler does better doesn't mean the Sorcerer isn't decent.

The beguiler, however, struggles more at the higher end. While at lower levels they get a lot of real gems alongside their core focus, the higher you go the shakier their spell list becomes, especially outside of their element- and even worse, the higher you go, the more counters there are to their focus. The pairing of true seeing, mind blank, or similar effects/immunities just shut down the beguiler's best spells, and at high levels they don't have many effective alternates..

1. They do have effective alternates.
2. Very few threats actually combine True Seeing and Mind Blank
3. Greater Dispel Magic is a thing. A thing that is on my list. That I would likely be casting on an enemy caster anyway.

In short, while the number of levels in which one is better in regards to the other might be equal, that doesn't necessarily indicate equal tier- the amount of difference in effectiveness can play a large role, and its arguable that the beguiler is substantially worse off in the higher levels than the sorcerer is at low levels.

Its arguable that the beguiler is just as good as the sorcerer at high levels too. It is QUITE arguable that the Beguiler can beat the sorcerer hands down at 4th level, by a wide range of standards.

We are 19th level. You have Wish and Shapechange. I have Time Stop, Foresight, and an Ice Assassin of you. I'm happy with my chances. That requires 0 feats, just good spell choices from both of us.

But even if you were right. That is the LEAST IMPORTANT PART OF THE GAME. It is not the only part. It is not the most important part (although T1 apologists like to pretend that it is). It is the least important part of the game as defined in the tier system.

Earlier you were claiming that Arcane Disciple allowed you to handle all manner of threats. Well yes, but the reality is that, even if you picked the right domains, the second time you meet the same type of threat in a day — you are hosed. Not only is this is quite common, normal even, in actual play it places a restriction on the kind of threats you can actually counter in a real game.

Which restriction is overcome by the fact that I still have more spells known than you do, and only unlikely cases even need me to diverge from my list.

Also, many spells don't need to be cast that often. Shapechange lasts for hours. Control Weather only needs to happen once.

Also, once it is on my list, it is on my list. I can make a scroll of it. I can make a wand of it. I can make a runestaff of it. If I take the summoner domain, if I want to, I can make as many scrolls of Gate and Summon monster IIX as I think I will need, and spam them in the event that I need to spam them. I can spam them from inside my Time Stop.

HaikenEdge

2015-05-27, 03:20 PM

Also, the tier system tends to overvalue high-level power. It's one of its biggest flaws: it doesn't really account for games that run from, like, levels 1-8.

That really depends on the group and player, though, and ways to play online have made this even more true; for example, I never play (ie, refuse to play) in games that begin earlier than 6th, and generally play games 10th-15th, so levels 1st through 5th never affect me, and 6th through 8th rarely come up for me. Sure, balance 1 through 8 is important, but reality, I don't see that as undervalued, but perspective, because for some players, those levels never come into play.

Sure, lower tier classes may be more powerful at lower levels, but from mid to high levels, those classes lose power very quickly, and for some players, those levels never even see play. I think the existing tier system values levels correctly; I remember the general consensus for power level break points was around 5th or 6th level, when the arcane casters first got some of the spells that make certain encounters trivial, and that remains in play even 1st through 8th.

nedz

2015-05-27, 03:57 PM

Which restriction is overcome by the fact that I still have more spells known than you do, and only unlikely cases even need me to diverge from my list.

Also, many spells don't need to be cast that often. Shapechange lasts for hours. Control Weather only needs to happen once.

Also, once it is on my list, it is on my list. I can make a scroll of it. I can make a wand of it. I can make a runestaff of it. If I take the summoner domain, if I want to, I can make as many scrolls of Gate and Summon monster IIX as I think I will need, and spam them in the event that I need to spam them. I can spam them from inside my Time Stop.

Nope, there are many cases where the Beguiler list is not helpful. So that's a lot of items you will be burning, and feats to make them too — apparently. But items are not the measure of a class.

jiriku

2015-05-27, 04:44 PM

Gnaeus, I think you touched on something important. Power and versatility are different from one another, and a typical adventuring party might have more use for a versatile character than a powerful one. Sure, the mailman sorcerer can deal 10x or 100x as much damage as the beguiler, but the beguiler might be capable at ten different things the mailman cannot attempt. The ability to barely scratch out a win ten times is more valuable than the ability to guarantee one win and nine losses.

However, I'm not sure this is something new. The idea that T3 represents versatility without potentially game-breaking power while T2 represents potentially game-breaking power without versatility is already baked into the tier system.

AmberVael

2015-05-27, 05:04 PM

1. They do have effective alternates.
2. Very few threats actually combine True Seeing and Mind Blank
3. Greater Dispel Magic is a thing. A thing that is on my list. That I would likely be casting on an enemy caster anyway.
When I look at every remotely offensive spell at 5th level or higher on the Beguiler list, I can't help but see that every single one of them is a mind-affecting enchantment that generally targets the will save (except scintillating pattern- its a mind-affecting illusion). The kind of awesome stuff they were used to getting at low levels just isn't there- no equivalent to things like Glitterdust, Slow, and Solid Fog. You can still use those, obviously, but their effectiveness will taper off as saves increase and begin to pale in comparison to the higher level spells a sorcerer can get access to: Cloudkill for area constitution damage, Freezing Glance for multi-use combat long save or lose, Forcecage for saveless imprisoning, Stun Ray with save for not quite as much lose.
(Note that I'm not saying that a sorcerer should get ALL of those spells, just that those are the sort of things Beguiler fails to acquire).

And I didn't necessarily mean literal, full on Mind Blank and True Seeing. I mean, if you're facing a spellcaster then yeah, but otherwise I was considering mind-affecting immune creature types (Undead, Constructs, Plants), save bonuses vs. mind-affecting (these seem to very common from items and features), and that sort of thing combined with the rise of true seeing. And yes, you're right, you probably won't encounter both at the same time all the time, but the increasing prevalence of both will make it harder for the Beguiler, and when they DO conjoin you're in a bad way. This also kinda covers the Greater Dispel Magic part- it applies against the actual spells, but not against all the similar effects which I was sort of lumping into the same group there. Great spell (you might even call it a greater spell :smalltongue:) but it isn't always going to pull you out of this particular fire.

Heck, even just high will save can present a problem for the Beguiler. Isn't Solid Fog pretty much the only offensive spell they have that doesn't target it? Using offensive loosely here. But there's one problem that it is easy to design a Sorcerer around and harder to work out for a Beguiler. Targeting multiple saves is generally an important tactic for a spellcaster, and Beguiler uses a lot of saving throw based spells.

Its arguable that the beguiler is just as good as the sorcerer at high levels too. It is QUITE arguable that the Beguiler can beat the sorcerer hands down at 4th level, by a wide range of standards.

We are 19th level. You have Wish and Shapechange. I have Time Stop, Foresight, and an Ice Assassin of you. I'm happy with my chances. That requires 0 feats, just good spell choices from both of us.
If Ice Assassin shenanigans are viable, then no, the sorcerer would not have Wish and Shapechange. They'd have Shapechange and something else, because hey, just shapechange into a Zodar and have free supernatural wishes.

I can't say I favor that level of optimization though, especially since at that point class is fairly irrelevant. Who cares what class you are when you can be that class and access all the power of all the other classes and like twenty other characters?

But even if you were right. That is the LEAST IMPORTANT PART OF THE GAME. It is not the only part. It is not the most important part (although T1 apologists like to pretend that it is). It is the least important part of the game as defined in the tier system.
I said higher levels, not highest levels. Higher meaning the 12-20 range you mentioned earlier, which definitely does have strong impact on the system.

Phaederkiel

2015-05-27, 06:37 PM

I
Sure. I'm just saying that Heighten and Versatile Spellcaster are feats that a large % of beguilers will take, once you are in the level where you are searching splats for optimum feats, and since can't even find which book your 2 feats are in with a google search, I think we're there.

while I am elsewhise quite on the beguiler side of this issue, I think dex is completely right here. Your combo depends on a (in my opinion willfully mangled) interpretation of the rules that would NEVER fly by any DM worth his salt.

And yes, in this forum you will find people who play very little and offer TO whenever someone asks for build advice. How do I build a Paladin? PunPun! but this is not something to be used as a argument, but rather something to be pitied.

Put it this way: A first-level sorcerer only knows two spells. Which two? If I were playing a 1st-level sorcerer and took Charm Person and Color Spray, nobody would say I was doing it wrong. Likewise, if I took Silent Image or Sleep instead of one of those two. A sorcerer with those spells is a decent sorcerer. But a sorcerer with those spells is also very definitely worse than a beguiler.

Now, those aren't the only spell options for a sorcerer. A sorcerer might also take Grease, or Magic Missile, or Burning Hands, and still do pretty well. But those aren't massively better than Charm Person and Color Spray. They're about comparable. It's still not enough to catapult the sorcerer past the beguiler knowing all his spells, plus the better chassis and other class features.

This nicely sums up the whole debate for me. For the range of levels I play, beguiler is about 200% stronger than a sorcerer. All this other stuff, that killing people stuff, should be done by someone else. A fighter. Or a warmage. The simple fact that a beguiler has a swell list of skills, and really high int synergy makes him, on par with factotum and druid, the best Skill user in the game. (druid because he has good skills, 6 skillpoints and the wis synergie to perception checks, which are the most important checks in the game in my opinion)

Chronos

2015-05-28, 02:07 PM

Druids have 4 skill points, not 6, and their class skill list is too thin to be in contention for the title of "best skillmonkey". They have enough for what they need, but they're really not comparable to the specialists. And a rogue is likely to have as many skill points as the beguiler, from a slightly larger list, and is likely to have better Dex. But yes, Beguiler's skills are certainly good enough to be significant.

Troacctid

2015-05-28, 02:46 PM

Beguilers might be the #1 best skillmonkey base class in the game. Certainly in the top three.

Brova

2015-05-28, 03:58 PM

Beguilers might be the #1 best skillmonkey base class in the game. Certainly in the top three.

That's very probably true. The only skillmonkey classes even vaguely in the running are Rogue, Beguiler, and Artificer. The Beguiler and Rogue are very much respectable life choices, and while I consider the Artificer to be rather impractical in play, it is very powerful theoretically. Beguiler is probably best simply because it is (barring truly TO cheese like the candle) the best class in the entire game up to level five or six.

DeAnno

2015-05-28, 04:02 PM

What are we using for books? Just Player's Handbook and Player's Handbook II, right? The only two books you're guaranteed to have when playing both classes in the same game.

It's interesting that PHBII has both Celerity and Arcane Thesis in it. AT is less useful without the bevy of +0 and +1 metamagics in other sourcebooks though, and Celerity less useful (though still good) with no way out of daze. I still think by level 9 the Beguiler is probably surpassed due to these and the general power of fourth level spells.

EDIT: I say level 9, both because once the Sorc has 2 4ths one of them is probably not on the Beguiler list and might be Celerity, and in addition AT Empower Scorching Ray is the best DPS option at this level for those two books and is dealing 3 rays of 1.5*4d6 fire for a 3rd level spell. One of the Beguiler's weaknesses is the inability to just kill things when their usual stick is blocked by Undead or Constructs or Will saves or something, so DPS is a big part of what makes the Sorc pull ahead in the middle levels.

Gnaeus

2015-05-28, 04:06 PM

When I look at every remotely offensive spell at 5th level or higher on the Beguiler list, I can't help but see that every single one of them is a mind-affecting enchantment that generally targets the will save (except scintillating pattern- its a mind-affecting illusion). The kind of awesome stuff they were used to getting at low levels just isn't there- no equivalent to things like Glitterdust, Slow, and Solid Fog. You can still use those, obviously, but their effectiveness will taper off as saves increase and begin to pale in comparison to the higher level spells a sorcerer can get access to: Cloudkill for area constitution damage, Freezing Glance for multi-use combat long save or lose, Forcecage for saveless imprisoning, Stun Ray with save for not quite as much lose.
(Note that I'm not saying that a sorcerer should get ALL of those spells, just that those are the sort of things Beguiler fails to acquire).

Fails to acquire as a base class feature with no feats spent. By the optimization level that I expect to see things like Freezing Glance, I have long since taken Arcane Disciple (unless I am PRCing)

And I didn't necessarily mean literal, full on Mind Blank and True Seeing. I mean, if you're facing a spellcaster then yeah, but otherwise I was considering mind-affecting immune creature types (Undead, Constructs, Plants), save bonuses vs. mind-affecting (these seem to very common from items and features), and that sort of thing combined with the rise of true seeing. And yes, you're right, you probably won't encounter both at the same time all the time, but the increasing prevalence of both will make it harder for the Beguiler, and when they DO conjoin you're in a bad way. This also kinda covers the Greater Dispel Magic part- it applies against the actual spells, but not against all the similar effects which I was sort of lumping into the same group there. Great spell (you might even call it a greater spell :smalltongue:) but it isn't always going to pull you out of this particular fire.

Let us also remember that just because an encounter is itself immune to dominate, that doesn't mean I can't use dominate to solve the encounter. Ordering my pawns to kill the monster (or subdue it so that I can remove its protection from evil amulet) while I eat a doughnut or cast haste is a standard tactic.

Heck, even just high will save can present a problem for the Beguiler. Isn't Solid Fog pretty much the only offensive spell they have that doesn't target it? Using offensive loosely here. But there's one problem that it is easy to design a Sorcerer around and harder to work out for a Beguiler. Targeting multiple saves is generally an important tactic for a spellcaster, and Beguiler uses a lot of saving throw based spells.

Well, 1, I find that generally, save DCs will scale faster than saves.
2. Power Word spells have no save, and I would call them offensive.
3. Greater shadow conjuration does allow a save, but its pretty good even against targets who save
4. Who says I have to target anyone with a save? Many undead, and most constructs and plants, are just obstacles. Truesight is good, but it doesn't stop hide and move silently. Why poke the robot? I do probably have Darkstalker as a feat tax somewhere.

If Ice Assassin shenanigans are viable, then no, the sorcerer would not have Wish and Shapechange. They'd have Shapechange and something else, because hey, just shapechange into a Zodar and have free supernatural wishes.

I can't say I favor that level of optimization though, especially since at that point class is fairly irrelevant. Who cares what class you are when you can be that class and access all the power of all the other classes and like twenty other characters?

Well, I agree with your point, although I will point out that at that stage of gameplay, we are both functionally playing with endless wishes, with no feats spent, and are pretty close to dead even.

As far as optimization levels go here, its really pretty hard to roughly estimate what people are doing with their Shapechange and wish. If you are using Shapechange for more normal adventuring uses, I don't feel too bad about Foresight, Time Stop, Power word kill, Dominate Monster and Mindrape, or Shades.

I said higher levels, not highest levels. Higher meaning the 12-20 range you mentioned earlier, which definitely does have strong impact on the system.

I think it is plausible, even probable, that a sorcerer is better than a beguiler at level 12 (I would REALLY enjoy it if we would be talking more about that 8-14 range. I really, actually want to see how big the difference is). I don't think that he beats the beguiler any more decisively than the beguiler wins at level 6.

Chronos

2015-05-28, 04:33 PM

Rogues are definitely better skillmonkeys than beguilers. Beguilers are still better overall, because their spells are much better than any of the rogue's non-skill abilities, but they are not better at skills.

And the factotum is the best skillmonkey, definitely better than rogue or beguiler. Well, Artificer might be better yet, but only because they're better at everything. Even that's debatable, though, since while the Artificer can hit higher skill checks, he has to blow a ton of resources at a single check to do it.

Troacctid

2015-05-28, 04:51 PM

DeAnno

2015-05-28, 05:01 PM

Well, 1, I find that generally, save DCs will scale faster than saves.

In my experience, it's the opposite.

Saves scale by at least 1/3 per HD, and often 1/2 or even faster due to extensive multiclassing. By comparison, save DCs for spells require those spells be higher level or heightened to scale. On the other hand, the ability for spell save DC will often increase faster than saving throw abilities, largely cancelling this out. However, the effects of Resistance bonuses from items (which rapidly scale to +5), the Conviction spell (Cleric 1, scaling to a +5 morale bonus), various spells and abilities which allow rerolling of saves, and other miscellany tend to make Saving Throw bonuses scale very quickly, especially the practical bonus you see in a dangerous situation with buffs up and rerolls being spammed. By contrast, investment of resources to improve your save DC tends to be quite expensive and slow, outside of the Owl's Wisdom Druid spell.

This applies less and less as your opposition is more of a monster and less of a bag of class levels, but a lot of intelligent monsters might have access to gear, buffs, spellcasting, etc.

Chronos

2015-05-28, 05:07 PM

If, out of the skillmonkey classes, you rate them overall, then maybe (bards and artificers might beat them, depending on how you define "skillmonkey" and "better"). If you rate them by how good they are at being skillmonkeys, then no. Even ninjas and spellthieves are as good at skillmonkeying as beguilers are. Yes, yes, beguilers have high Int... but there's no reason you couldn't give a ninja or spellthief the same ability scores you're giving a beguiler.

HaikenEdge

2015-05-28, 05:09 PM

Out of all the skillmonkey classes in the game, Beguilers are the overall best. They're not the best class, but they are the best class in that particular category. Rank all the skillmonkeys from best to worst and Beguiler will come out on top.

Can you give any details as to why this is the case? It's not a stance I agree with, so I'd like to know why you feel this way.

Troacctid

2015-05-28, 05:25 PM

Can you give any details as to why this is the case? It's not a stance I agree with, so I'd like to know why you feel this way.

Well, there's room for debate, but like I said, they're at least in the top three. Factotum and Bard are close, but I think the Beguiler's faster spellcasting progression pushes it ahead. If you count Cloistered Clerics or Artificers as skillmonkeys, they're probably better, but I don't think they should count.

HaikenEdge

2015-05-28, 05:28 PM

Well, there's room for debate, but like I said, they're at least in the top three. Factotum and Bard are close, but I think the Beguiler's faster spellcasting progression pushes it ahead. If you count Cloistered Clerics or Artificers as skillmonkeys, they're probably better, but I don't think they should count.

Ahh, I guess I was misinterpreting what you meant; I thought you meant the Beguiler is the best class to be a skillmonkey with, as opposed to the skillmonkey class that's best overall.

Felyndiira

2015-05-28, 05:55 PM

However, I'm not sure this is something new. The idea that T3 represents versatility without potentially game-breaking power while T2 represents potentially game-breaking power without versatility is already baked into the tier system.

The sorcerer does have versatility, though, starting from Alter Self. A sorcerer who chooses something like Summon Monster or Planar Binding as his first spell of a level gains considerable versatility from that choice, even if most sorcerers will not practically do such a thing.

For the OP's question, I would honestly say that the two start evening out as early as level 4, assuming that the (Savage Progression Lesser Aasimar) Sorcerer goes for Alter Self as his first second-level spell. If the Sorcerer makes some less-than-optimal choices with summon monster as one of his first spells, he can keep this advantage at level 6, and keep up to par with the beguiler until polymorph comes online at 8.

With the sorcerer, it's not a matter of how versatile the entire wizard list is, but how versatile each individual (conjuration/transmutation) spell can be. A standard sorcerer that starts off with staples like Lesser Snake's Swiftness, Glitterdust, Wings of X, and/or Haste is going to lose the versatility game until at least his second level 3 spell. However, spells like Summon Monster and Alter Self gives considerable versatility to the sorcerer, while even with arcane disciple a beguiler will only have alter self a maximum of 1/day.

I'm not really sure how Alter Self (with outsiders thrown in thanks to Savage Progression aasimar) compare against the entirety of the beguiler level 2 list, though I think the sorc and beguiler are not too far off in this situation. Glitterdust or Snake's Swiftness as the sorc's first level 2, though, and Beguiler wins hands-down.

Nihilarian

2015-05-28, 06:20 PM

The Factotum is the best at skills, it isn't even close. The Beguiler might be in the top 3, but it certainly isn't cut and dried.

HaikenEdge

2015-05-28, 06:27 PM

When it comes down to doing just raw skill stuff, without involving Tier 1 classes, I agree the Factotum make for the skill users.

Phaederkiel

2015-05-28, 06:41 PM

That's very probably true. The only skillmonkey classes even vaguely in the running are Rogue, Beguiler, and Artificer. The Beguiler and Rogue are very much respectable life choices, and while I consider the Artificer to be rather impractical in play, it is very powerful theoretically. Beguiler is probably best simply because it is (barring truly TO cheese like the candle) the best class in the entire game up to level five or six.

the Factotum is by far the best skillmonkey in the game. And it is also quite a powerful class.

Rogue is never ever a better skillmonkey than Factotum or beguiler. Both of these classes are massively mechanically rewarded for having huge Int, which the rogue is simply not. It is quite wasteful for a rogue to start with more than 14 int, and you will hardly ever see a Factotum or beguiler with less than 18.

The exception is of course changeling rogue, with its 10+int x 4 skillpoints on first level. But that is obviously just a very good start for the discerning factotum.

I was wrong about druids having 6 skillpoints. I always was angry about that, but it seems to have been some kind of stupid houserule. Still, they have their wis synergy to listen, spot and sense motive (gotten via urban enhancement), which covers the three most important skillchecks in the game.

Brova

2015-05-28, 07:01 PM

For the OP's question, I would honestly say that the two start evening out as early as level 4, assuming that the (Savage Progression Lesser Aasimar) Sorcerer goes for Alter Self as his first second-level spell. If the Sorcerer makes some less-than-optimal choices with summon monster as one of his first spells, he can keep this advantage at level 6, and keep up to par with the beguiler until polymorph comes online at 8.

Let's talk about how the Beguiler progresses across those levels:

1st - You get all the social skills, all the rogue skills, and Abuse Magic Device. You're an Int based caster, so you get some 9 to 11 of those. Pick diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive for social, search and disable device for trapfinding, abuse magic device for value, and any four other skills you want. You dominate any time people aren't killing fools. And you get a laundry list of the best 1st level spells for winning when people are killing fools.

2nd - You hit (assuming you managed a +1 Cha modifier) +10 to diplomacy, letting you nail the "you should be on my team" speech for charmed people. Starting at this point you're followed around by as many minions as your DM will allow you. The only hitch is that if you never fight humanoids you've got to charm some town guards or something.

3rd - Advanced Learning hits. You pick power word pain because it is amazing.

4th - Not a whole lot happens, except glitterdust. And hypnotic pattern. And mirror image.

6th - You get 3rd level spells, which are still crazy hardcore. Now you are also a Mindbender. Remember how you used to have to be able to talk to people to convince them to join your army of allies? Now you don't

7th - Another advanced learning. Maybe you pick ray of stupidity to kill animals forever. Maybe you find some spell that targets Fort or Ref. The real question here is - Rainbow Servant or Shadowcraft Mage? Shadowcraft Mage comes online slightly quicker, but is not quite as insane in the long run. Rainbow Servant delays giving you its full power for a few levels, but lets you be a one man party.

8th - 4th level spells. Notably, charm monster. Remember how you used to only be able to redeem humanoids to the path of ... whatever it is you do? Now you can grab anyone (with a language).

11th - Shadow Illusion is online at this point if you went the Shadowcraft Mage route. Also, another advanced learning. Take friend to foe or a shadow spell. Whatever

15th - Advanced Learning again. I don't really know at this point. Maybe a power word?

16th - Cleric Spell Access is online if you went down the Rainbow Servant path.

So by all means, stack up "kinda useful utility spell" to "all your mooks are belong to us".

SinsI

2015-05-28, 07:58 PM

The sorcerer does have versatility, though, starting from Alter Self. A sorcerer who chooses something like Summon Monster or Planar Binding as his first spell of a level gains considerable versatility from that choice, even if most sorcerers will not practically do such a thing.

Those kind of spells are only as powerful as the DM allows them to be. Just because there is a Troglodyte entry in one of the Monster Manuals doesn't mean that they exist (and are thus available to players) in a particular game world. One of the strictest interpretations is that you get only a single DM-approved form for each spell + those of monsters you actually met in the game. So no Solars, Zotars or Genies unless DM decides to throw them at you...

PairO'Dice Lost

2015-05-28, 08:06 PM

It seems to me that comparing the sorcerer to the beguiler is a lot like comparing the fighter to the warblade. At low levels and in low-optimization games, the beguiler and warblade have a much higher optimization floor and are more well-rounded, so each can cover the skillmonkey role to some extent in addition to their primary role and picking spells/maneuvers to use almost at random in combat (and at character creation, for the warblade) will turn out just fine, whle the sorcerer and fighter have a much lower optimization floor and are more specialized, so a bad spell or feat selection will completely screw them over and they don't really have anything to fall back on.

At high levels, however, the sorcerer's and fighter's ability to cherry-pick the best spells/feats in the game combined with their extensive splatbook support (for spells/feats as well as ACFs, class-exclusive items, and similar) allow them to pull far ahead in the power and versatility departments, while the beguiler and warblade have limited spell/maneuver lists--and fairly small and thematically-restricted ones, at that--so not only are they fairly narrow in their areas of specialty but there are some areas that they'll never best the sorcerer/fighter in and some areas that they can't really handle at all without going outside their class capabilities with Arcane Disciple, Martial Study, and the like. Likewise, in high-practical-optimization games, the sorcerer's ability to grab more game-changing spells than the beguiler for an equivalent resource investment and the fighter's ability of extreme specialization on one tactic more than the warblade give them a much higher optimization ceiling.

As already mentioned, in high-theoretical-optimization games, any primary caster can pull pretty much all the same tricks as any other and any martial type can pretty much one-round any printed monster, so the differences all but vanish at that point and it's not really worth debating whether a beguiler/rainbow servant is better than a sorcerer with an ancestral runestaff.

So personally I'd say that in low-level, low-op situations the beguiler is clearly superior and in high-level, high-op situations the sorcerer is clearly superior, but at mid-levels and moderate optimization the winner will be highly dependent on the specific DM and game in question:
Is the game heavy on the social/intrigue side of things, and how RAW does the DM run Diplomacy?
Does the opposition feature more enchantment-vulnerable humanoids/dragons/magical beasts/etc. or more enchantment-immune oozes/plants/undead/etc., and are the enemies highly varied or is it a game of "Let's kill the Demon King, his demonic allies, his summoned demon minions, and his hordes of part-demon troops, with nary an aberration or construct in sight"?
How much downtime will there be for creating items, gathering minions, and such, and how much control does the DM allow the character's player to have over the process?
How tailored is the party loot for individual party members (through deliberate DM placement, player requests, availability for purchase, and so forth), and are wands and other spell-storage items prevalent enough to make UMD investment a noticeable factor?
What books are available for creating characters, and do the DM's opinions/houserules on certain tactics alter build considerations significantly?
Is this character the only arcane caster in the party and has to cover the whole arcanist role by themselves or are they one of two or three arcanists and can afford to be more specialized, and do any other party members particularly synergize with this character (whether enhancing this character's abilities or benefiting more from one class's abilities than the other's)?
Depending on the answer to these and plenty of other questions, the beguiler might be better than the sorcerer or vice versa, or they might be roughly equally valuable to the party, just in different ways.

SinsI

2015-05-28, 08:15 PM

the fighter's ability of extreme specialization on one tactic more than the warblade give them a much higher optimization ceiling.
First time I'm seeing someone that says fighter can be better than a warblade in any situation. At high levels of optimization all fighter feats together are worth a total of 44k gp (11 Pearls of Power II). And almost all fighter's alternative class features are not even worth a single maneuver...

in high-level, high-op situations the sorcerer is clearly superior
How is any sorcerer superior to a Rainbow Beguiler that has access to all cleric spells, spontaneously?

Nihilarian

2015-05-28, 08:20 PM

There are very few feats that are worth losing 9th level maneuvers for, and fighter doesn't get exclusive access to any of them.

Felyndiira

2015-05-28, 08:22 PM

Those kind of spells are only as powerful as the DM allows them to be. Just because there is a Troglodyte entry in one of the Monster Manuals doesn't mean that they exist (and are thus available to players) in a particular game world. One of the strictest interpretations is that you get only a single DM-approved form for each spell + those of monsters you actually met in the game. So no Solars, Zotars or Genies unless DM decides to throw them at you...

We are arguing things like using Charm Person and diplomacy to start an army here. I don't think homebrew restrictions on Alter Self is really warranted when uber-diplomacers are GM-approved and on the table.

How is any sorcerer superior to a Rainbow Beguiler that has access to all cleric spells, spontaneously?

As an example, you can use Shadowcraft Mage on either base class to cast 120% Spontaneous Miracles from a sixth level slot (I've heard that there are loops that lets you do this from a cantrip slot, though I've never seen the build behind this). Once you get miracle from a sixth level slot, even having spontaneous access to all cleric spells stop really mattering (unless if you really need that True Resurrection). For everything else, there's Shapechange (which may or may not grant spellcasting, depending on how you read the RAW on that).

Let's talk about how the Beguiler progresses across those levels:

1st - You get all the social skills, all the rogue skills, and Abuse Magic Device. You're an Int based caster, so you get some 9 to 11 of those. Pick diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive for social, search and disable device for trapfinding, abuse magic device for value, and any four other skills you want. You dominate any time people aren't killing fools. And you get a laundry list of the best 1st level spells for winning when people are killing fools.

2nd - You hit (assuming you managed a +1 Cha modifier) +10 to diplomacy, letting you nail the "you should be on my team" speech for charmed people. Starting at this point you're followed around by as many minions as your DM will allow you. The only hitch is that if you never fight humanoids you've got to charm some town guards or something.

3rd - Advanced Learning hits. You pick power word pain because it is amazing.

4th - Not a whole lot happens, except glitterdust. And hypnotic pattern. And mirror image.

6th - You get 3rd level spells, which are still crazy hardcore. Now you are also a Mindbender. Remember how you used to have to be able to talk to people to convince them to join your army of allies? Now you don't.

8th - 4th level spells. Notably, charm monster. Remember how you used to only be able to redeem humanoids to the path of ... whatever it is you do? Now you can grab anyone (with a language).

First of all, no one is going to deny that a trumped up Rainbow Warsnake Beguilersnake build is a T1 king. If we're really going that deep into optimization, though...a Sorcerer can also achieve 1st level slot miracles via Shadowcraft Mage in the same way that Beguilers can. Sorcerers are going to be innately better at metamagic by trading out their familiar, which makes the Incantatrix more powerful for them (also, they also have easier access to IotSV). Both can go Mage of the Arcane Order to effectively get the entire Wizard/Sorcerer list. Both can make human sacrifices for bonuses. Both can achieve pun-pun. At what point are we no longer comparing the power of the base class and instead just trumping up what a powerful prestige class can do?

By fourth level, a sorcerer can easily switch one of his first level spells from, oh, Color Spray to Charm Person if being a diplomancer is your thing. Hitting a +10 to diplomacy isn't a difficult thing to do in 3.5; With +5 from Cha (Savage Progression Aasimar), +4 from CC ranks, and +2 from, say, a masterwork diplomacy tool a sorcerer hits it just as well. I didn't even hit skill synergies (thought I'd leave it out, since the sorcerer does have lower skill points). Sure, he invested some resources into this, but if your DM is allowing you to play ball with charm person like this, why would the sorcerer not do so?

Beguiler gets a lot of utility spells at fourth level. I'm not sure why you focused on the combat ones when we are comparing the versatility of the class and left out, say, Invisibility. However, Alter Self is not just "kinda useful utility spell" like you claim. Want to go multiple natural attacks? Sure. Fly? Dig? Swim? Sure. Even without the (su) abilities of outsiders, there's still a decent breadth of racial skill bonuses you can choose from with some outsider form. All of these are things that the beguiler simply does not do with his spell list (unless if you want to argue handle animal to get a roc mount?)

I mean, no one is saying a beguiler's spell list is bad in this thread. My entire focus is on the breadth of versatility that the two classes have; since both can achieve charm person minionmancy, a lot of it is just the beguiler's skills and their spell list versus the versatility given by some of the most expansive spells on the wizard list. I even agree with you that the Beguiler probably wins at this level, though Alter Self is when the sorcerer begins to catch up in a major way in comparison, and that most sorcerers that I know actually do not take Alter Self as their first 2nd level spell. It's just that Beguilers don't get some of the stuff that Alter Self can give you at anywhere close to that level (barring the GM just handing you a bunch of creatures in ye olde marketplace), which makes the two very close in versatility.

Brova

2015-05-28, 08:22 PM

Beguilers win in actual games because the build complexity for a given power level is lower. Yes, you can alter self into whatever creature you dug up, but you've got to dig through the monster book, convince your DM to allow alter self, etc. The Beguiler gets enough power to match that just for existing. By taking a prestige class and no feats, he rockets to "better than everyone except maybe Druid." Yes, other people can match his tricks. But no one can do it as easy or as early. The Beguiler isn't king because you can make a Beguiler that "X broken thing", he's king because he hits the top of the power scale just by existing.

At what point are we no longer comparing the power of the base class and instead just trumping up what a powerful prestige class can do?

I won't set a point in stone, but I will argue that the Rainbow Servant is sufficiently synergistic with Beguiler to come in far below that threshold.

It's just that Beguilers don't get some of the stuff that Alter Self can give you at anywhere close to that level (barring the GM just handing you a bunch of creatures in ye olde marketplace), which makes the two very close in versatility.

So your big conclusion is that Sorcerers and Beguilers are of comparable power level?

There are very few feats that are worth losing 9th level maneuvers for, and fighter doesn't get exclusive access to any of them.

Persist Spell definitely. Maybe Quicken or Twin. Arcane Thesis potentially, with the right support. That's just off the top of my head. I guess what I'm saying is, Fighters can't have nice things.

SinsI

2015-05-28, 08:43 PM

We are arguing things like using Charm Person and diplomacy to start an army here. I don't think homebrew restrictions on Alter Self is really warranted when uber-diplomacers are GM-approved and on the table.

To be able to assume a form of a humanoid race a character first has to know that such a race exist, doesn't he? Unless it is one of the player races, such knowledge is not going to be readily available. And a sorcerer has a measly 2+Int skillpoints, and only Knowledge(arcana) is his class skill - so he practically has no chance of getting such a knowledge.

Using Charm Person for multiple encounters over several days would be an abuse that stretches it, but someone you Charmed in the first encounter of a day can help you in the second encounter.

Phaederkiel

2015-05-28, 08:45 PM

and even weapon supremacy, the fighters standalone feature, is accessible for the warblade.
No, the power features of the fighter come at 2nd, 6th and 9th level: Dungeoncrusher and zhentarim. After that, at the very latest, it is warblade all the way.

lets face it: unless you are jack be quick, or some other incredibly feat-hungry build, a ToB class will be better than you.
And even then it is normaly not wise to stay pure fighter, high OP tends to mix in Psionic fighter, for 1 more feat. Or Monk, for another 2 feats, if you select your style well. Pure fighter is a fluff choice. What power the class per se has ends at the latest at lvl 9, probably at lvl 2.

btw: Alter self is a spell that does not fly at many tables. At mine for instance. We took the axe to the polymorph and celerity lines. I think that many people who actually play the game handle these spells like this.

Urpriest

2015-05-28, 08:49 PM

Felyndiira

2015-05-28, 08:53 PM

To be able to assume a form of a humanoid race a character first has to know that such a race exist, doesn't he? Unless it is one of the player races, such knowledge is not going to be readily available. And a sorcerer has a measly 2+Int skillpoints, and only Knowledge(arcana) is his class skill - so he practically has no chance of getting such a knowledge.

Using Charm Person for multiple encounters over several days would be an abuse that stretches it, but someone you Charmed in the first encounter of a day can help you in the second encounter.

By RAW, you don't have to. If this is enforced, you can add that your character heavily studied Lantern Archons and Advespas in their childhood, and renamed himself Old Man Henderson in the process. Also, plenty of high-OP games are okay with it.

It is major cheese, yes, but the same goes for charming NPCs with significant abilities. A GM might allow you to charm a level 1 warrior town guard to follow you for a while, but it will take some leniency and tolerance before he'd allow you to charm a full adventuring party to join you forever - the same as a Henderson-like background just for the use of Alter Self (or just letting you Alter Self into anything without any prior knowledge, which is entirely within RAW).

But yes, if your DM is strict on it (as I imagine that many will be), Alter Self can also end up just being a glorified Disguise Self spell. I couldn't imagine a DM cracking down on Polymorph spells and then giving the pass to a text-over-table Rainbow Beguilersnake, though.

Brova

2015-05-28, 08:58 PM

Honestly, this has turned into "alter self cheese versus charm person cheese", which while interesting is not particularly useful. So let's try something that tries to capture an actual game. You get Core + one splatbook, show off character at 1/5/10, assume no to alter self, charm person, and cheese in general (i.e. no Incantatrix). Maybe do a couple more rounds with loser restrictions.

Karl Aegis

2015-05-28, 09:02 PM

Troacctid

2015-05-28, 09:02 PM

Felyndiira

2015-05-28, 09:07 PM

So your big conclusion is that Sorcerers and Beguilers are of comparable power level?

At level 4? Yes, that's exactly my point. There were arguments about how the sorcerer is heavily constrained by their limited spell slots at lower levels, and I'm simply saying that versatile spells (like Alter Self [EDIT: Actually, only alter self]) exists to overcome the limited spells known by a bit and edge the two classes closer to each other at that level.

If my post was not worded well enough, then my apologies.

Brova

2015-05-28, 09:08 PM

Given the common wisdom that Player > Build > Class, this doesn't sound like a productive exercise.

It depends on what you want to prove. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that both the Beguiler and the Sorcerer bat 50/50 on the SGT with reasonable builds makes them equal. I just think that the exercise proposed provides a concrete way to determine which class is superior in actual play.

SinsI

2015-05-28, 09:15 PM

Aren't we investing resources in knowledge skills anyways due to the fact that it helps us identify what is a viable target for charm person? We're investing resources to identify what religions give the right domains for our feat or second level spell slot for beguilers and sorcerers, respectively, and to identify undead that are immune to some effects as well.

Beguiler has plenty of skillpoints, Knowledge(local) is his class skill and uses his primary casting attribute, so he is perfectly ready unless you throw something exotic at him.
Plus with Charm Person you can just fire it at anything, with the only downside being that you've wasted your spell slot and action if you thought that that Illithid was a Humanoid and not an Aberration.

Alter Self is very powerful in the hands of a Bard or Wizard, but Sorcerers can't take advantage of its strong sides.

Bad Wolf

2015-05-28, 09:39 PM

And of course its snowballing into a Beguiler vs Wizard competition. I assume dextercorvia will offer to DM, then get rejected because he's tendentious?

Story

2015-05-28, 09:42 PM

Chronos

2015-05-28, 09:45 PM

Quoth Phaederkiel:

and even weapon supremacy, the fighters standalone feature, is accessible for the warblade.
No, the fighter's standalone feature is getting 11 more feats than anyone else, all day and always on.

And in comparing beguilers to other skillmonkeys, rogues are clearly better at skills, and ninjas and spellthieves are their equal. The rogue comparison is easy: A rogue will probably have an Int about four points lower than a beguiler, giving them the same total number of skill points, but the rogue will probably have higher Dex, giving them better scores on most of the key skillmonkey skills. Plus, rogues also eventually get Skill Mastery, while beguilers don't get any skill-boosting abilities.

The comparison to the ninja or spellthief takes a bit more thought. For any given Int score, all three of these classes will have the same number of skill points, from mostly the same list, and with no particular abilities that improve their skills beyond ranks (aside from Trapfinding, which they all get). The usual counterargument is that the beguiler has higher Int. But why doesn't the ninja or spellthief have that same high Int? They could if they wanted to. But the reason that they don't usually want to is because they usually raise Dex instead. If Int were a more useful score than Dex for a skillmonkey, then all skillmonkeys would raise Int instead of Dex.

Brova

2015-05-28, 09:55 PM

Good luck finding a DM that allows Rainbow Warsnakes but not Alter Self.

Did you miss the part where I'm comparing alter self dumpster diving to the baseline power of the Beguiler, then pointing out that he could totally take Rainbow Servant on top of that? charm person, glitterdust, and friends are things the Beguiler just has. No dumpster diving, no spell selection, you just get that for writing "Beguiler" as your class. The fact is that being a Beguiler is a choice as good or better than any other spellcaster at whatever level of effort you choose to put in. If that effort is "pick random spells", the Beguiler gets ones that kill fools. If that level is "dumpster dive splats for marginal power", the Beguiler casts every Cleric spell spontaneously. That's not to say you can't build a Sorcerer or Wizard or Cleric who is better than any given Beguiler. You totally can. It's just that for that effort, you could have had a better Beguiler.

Troacctid

2015-05-28, 10:34 PM

And in comparing beguilers to other skillmonkeys, rogues are clearly better at skills, and ninjas and spellthieves are their equal. The rogue comparison is easy: A rogue will probably have an Int about four points lower than a beguiler, giving them the same total number of skill points, but the rogue will probably have higher Dex, giving them better scores on most of the key skillmonkey skills. Plus, rogues also eventually get Skill Mastery, while beguilers don't get any skill-boosting abilities.

The comparison to the ninja or spellthief takes a bit more thought. For any given Int score, all three of these classes will have the same number of skill points, from mostly the same list, and with no particular abilities that improve their skills beyond ranks (aside from Trapfinding, which they all get). The usual counterargument is that the beguiler has higher Int. But why doesn't the ninja or spellthief have that same high Int? They could if they wanted to. But the reason that they don't usually want to is because they usually raise Dex instead. If Int were a more useful score than Dex for a skillmonkey, then all skillmonkeys would raise Int instead of Dex.

Ah, but you forget that Beguilers have access to familiars that share all their skill ranks. That's two skillmonkeys for the price of one. Extra stealthy, improved scouting, free +2 on everything via aid another, or just roll twice and take the better result if you prefer. Big advantage.

atemu1234

2015-05-28, 10:45 PM

I was referring to the terrifying and short reign of Lord Drako, who claimed that wizards were in every way inferior to his 'Sorserer King'.

I'd courtesy link to the forum rules if I could from mobile. We shouldn't reference locked threads and banned users anyway.

Also, my 2 cp on the subject:

Sorcerer is worse at low levels, but by about fifth level the sorcerer has significant advantages.

Also, are we taking outside core into consideration?

Edit: Wow, I somehow missed the fact that this thread had more than one page.

HaikenEdge

2015-05-28, 11:07 PM

Ah, but you forget that Beguilers have access to familiars that share all their skill ranks. That's two skillmonkeys for the price of one. Extra stealthy, improved scouting, free +2 on everything via aid another, or just roll twice and take the better result if you prefer. Big advantage.

Not naturally. They have to burn a feat.

dextercorvia

2015-05-28, 11:28 PM

And of course its snowballing into a Beguiler vs Wizard competition. I assume dextercorvia will offer to DM, then get rejected because he's tendentious?

I smiled. I tend to think that Sorcerer pulls even around 5th -7th level, and isn't noticeably behind in spellpower during the early levels. Chassis is going to really help from 1-4, and Beguiler does get a decent subset of the best 1st-3rd level spells, with some situational spells for free.

I tend to think that Beguilers will have difficulty in a game where they are expected to fulfill both the primary arcane and the primary skillmonkey role. With 11 sp per level, it is hard to keep all of your casting skills, knowledges, stealth, and perception skills up to snuff, and have some left over to actually disable traps, avoid being flat-footed while balancing, avoid AoOs for movement, UMD. A sorcerer has the benefit that no one expects him to be able to do more than Spellcraft, Concentration, and maybe Bluff or UMD.

Troacctid

2015-05-29, 12:03 AM

Not naturally. They have to burn a feat.

Druids don't naturally get Natural Spell. Dragonfire Adepts don't naturally get Entangling Exhalation. Clerics don't naturally get Divine Metamagic. Those are still huge selling points for the classes. Every Beguiler should be taking Obtain Familiar--it's too powerful to pass up, and unlike with a Bard, the class isn't so feat-hungry that you won't have room for it.

I tend to think that Beguilers will have difficulty in a game where they are expected to fulfill both the primary arcane and the primary skillmonkey role. With 11 sp per level, it is hard to keep all of your casting skills, knowledges, stealth, and perception skills up to snuff, and have some left over to actually disable traps, avoid being flat-footed while balancing, avoid AoOs for movement, UMD. A sorcerer has the benefit that no one expects him to be able to do more than Spellcraft, Concentration, and maybe Bluff or UMD.

I'd go for Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Arcana), Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, UMD, and just enough Tumble to hit DC 15. Maybe cross-class Intimidate for Mindbender, maybe 5 ranks in Decipher Script if I'm going to be UMD'ing a lot of scrolls, maybe Search if I'm really worried about traps. There should be a few points to spare for bits and pieces here and there; if not, borrow them from Knowledge (Arcana), since that doesn't really need to be maxed. Hide is mostly unnecessary thanks to invisibility (and if you go Darkstalker you can use Move Silently in its place), disarming traps is overrated, your familiar can handle perception (or you can take Mindsight if you dipped Mindbender), and you can't worry too much about cross-class knowledges.

SinsI

2015-05-29, 12:29 AM

And in comparing beguilers to other skillmonkeys, rogues are clearly better at skills, and ninjas and spellthieves are their equal. The rogue comparison is easy: A rogue will probably have an Int about four points lower than a beguiler, giving them the same total number of skill points, but the rogue will probably have higher Dex, giving them better scores on most of the key skillmonkey skills. Plus, rogues also eventually get Skill Mastery, while beguilers don't get any skill-boosting abilities.
Dex-based Beguiler skills:
Balance - extremely situational
Escape Artist - even more situational than Balance
Move Silently - Beguiler gets Silence spell (and Silent Spell feat), making this skill useless
Open Lock - Beguiler gets Knock, making this skill useless
Sleight of Hand - has some minor uses
Tumble - the only one that is worth maxing.

Result: Two skills that gain anything from high Dex.

Int-based Beguiler skills:
Appraise - Extra Treasure for you!
Decipher Script - worth 5 ranks for UMD synergy
Disable Device - Max it!
Forgery - while situational, it can be extremely helpful
Knowledge(Arcana) - decent
Knowledge(Local) - decent
Search - Max it!
Spellcraft - decent

Almost everything is at least decent.
Beguiler gets a lot more from Int than from Dex.

And while it's pretty late (8th level spell so lvl 16), Beguiler has access to Moment of Prescience, which can make lots of those skill checks trivial, while Rogue don't have the luxury of it.

Grim Reader

2015-05-29, 03:55 AM

Well. Sorry I've been a bit absent since starting the thread, the runup to the summer vacation is quite rushed both in work and outside.

I'm seeing a rough consensus here that the Beguiler is better for the first 1-5 levels, and that the Sorcerer edges out ahead somewhere around level 5-8. That seems sensible, really. The Beguilers advantages are a better chassis, skills, and getting spells that do one thing well (hitting the Will save) and a few other things adequately. Buffs through Haste, defense, invisibility, mobility, dispel magic, etc. The Sorcerer starts out being able to do one thing adequately. By the time he can do one thing well and several things adequately, he will be ahead, since he should be less limited by type and save.

That should be roughly around the time 4th level spells come online. From there on, the Beguiler spells become more lackluster compared to the goods he got at levels 1-3. Whereas the Sorcerer gets stuff like Celerity, Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Polymorph, Wings of Flurry etc. By the time the 5th level ones roll around with Arcane Fusion its all over.

As for the specific arguments, my own opinions are:

Rainbow Beguilingsnake: If you got to throw ten levels of another class onto your your class to compete, that pretty much says that the original class couldn't compete.

Charm Person: While the Beguiler might be somewhat better at this, and have more resources to throw at it, the option is equally open to the Sorcerer, and being a Cha-based caster mitigates the Beguilers advantage somewhat. So it doesn't really put the beguiler way ahead of the Sorcerer. It just one more point in the thing the Beguiler does well in the "beguiler does this thing really well, the Sorcerer can tailor himself better" list.

Heighten/Versatile: To me, this is firmly in TO-land. I consider the borders of TO land to begin where the stuff DMs allow at the table starts to end. If it is RAW, but won't be allowed anywhere, its TO to me. And I've never met a DM that will let you use two feats to skip ahead three levels of casting!

Arcane Disciple: Well, the Beguiler definitely gets more mileage out of this. I think it is better compared to Extra Spell than a Sorcerer picking Arcane Disciple. To use Arcane Disciple, you must pick a deity, which then limits your picks to his domains. You're likely to get at least one real gem for your fist pick of AD, when you can in practice chose from nearly any list of domain spells. If you're lucky, the domain list contains another good spell and maybe some semi-useful ones as well. Which you can use once per day. Your second pick is limited to one of maybe two further domains, and so is unlikly to pay off as much. So the marginal utility of the feat declines rapidly.

In comparison, every use of Extra Spell should net the Sorcerer a gem, which is spammable.

Chronos

2015-05-29, 06:31 AM

Quoth Troacctid:

Ah, but you forget that Beguilers have access to familiars that share all their skill ranks. That's two skillmonkeys for the price of one. Extra stealthy, improved scouting, free +2 on everything via aid another, or just roll twice and take the better result if you prefer. Big advantage.
True, and I really should have taken that into consideration, given how much I tout that particular advantage of familiars. It does cost a feat, but it's a feat well spent. OK, that puts them ahead of ninjas, though spellthieves can (and should) also take Obtain Familiar.

SinsI, while some skills can be replaced by some spells in some situations, it's not really true that you can completely replace all of them. Move Silently can only be replaced by Silence if you never need to get within 15' of anyone, because the sudden cessation of background noise will alert them that you're there (there are ways around that, but they have their own drawbacks), and also lets you cast spells without needing a higher-level slot. Hide, which you inexplicably didn't mention, trumps all of the stealth and detection spells, once you get to even moderately-optimized bonus levels. Knock is a waste of a spell slot, given how common locks can be, when Open Lock can be used an unlimited number of times for free. Sleight of Hand doesn't just have "minor uses"-- It's a full-on overpowered campaign smasher.

nedz

2015-05-29, 07:27 AM

Move Silently doesn't allow you to cast spells silently, though Beguilers do get Silent Spell for free. Beguilers also have Zone of Silence which is the perfect spell for this.

Gnaeus

2015-05-29, 07:39 AM

In my experience, it's the opposite.

Saves scale by at least 1/3 per HD, and often 1/2 or even faster due to extensive multiclassing. By comparison, save DCs for spells require those spells be higher level or heightened to scale. On the other hand, the ability for spell save DC will often increase faster than saving throw abilities, largely cancelling this out. However, the effects of Resistance bonuses from items (which rapidly scale to +5), the Conviction spell (Cleric 1, scaling to a +5 morale bonus), various spells and abilities which allow rerolling of saves, and other miscellany tend to make Saving Throw bonuses scale very quickly, especially the practical bonus you see in a dangerous situation with buffs up and rerolls being spammed. By contrast, investment of resources to improve your save DC tends to be quite expensive and slow, outside of the Owl's Wisdom Druid spell.

This applies less and less as your opposition is more of a monster and less of a bag of class levels, but a lot of intelligent monsters might have access to gear, buffs, spellcasting, etc.

Well, If I were a sorcerer, and was spamming a level 2 SOL for many levels, that would be a problem. However, as has been mentioned, Beguilers have SoL spells at pretty much every level, so I can most always spam them from my highest level slot if I need to.

The most basic resource to improve Save DCs is casting stat. But in general, any Sorcerer is going to keep his Cha maxed, and any Beguiler will keep his Int maxed, anyway. It gives them more spells, and in the case of Beguilers, also adds nice boosts to important skills.

I wanted to jump on you for ignoring the analysis on this, but then I realized it was back in the parent thread. Here it is again, edited to correct my error about how mind fog works.

Not too much. Your real gold standard for dominate person is a rogue or fighter. At level 10, when I get dominate person, my save DC on dominate is likely to be at least 20. (Say, 16 starting int, 2 int bumps, +2 int item, so 20 int=+5, level 5 spell=DC 20. We're low op here, it should be higher). A 12-14th level NPC fighter or rogue is likely to have a will save in the +4-+8 range. (+4 base, +0-2 wisdom, +1-2 resistance (remember, NPCs get a lot less gold than PCs do)). I've got a pretty good chance to ensnare any non paladin/monk muggle in my CR range. Lacking thuddy people in the normal course of events, I can always make it a character goal to find a group of bandits or orcs or a rogues guild and go dominate their leaders

A 12-13th level Wizard, a mid range target, is likely to have a will save in the +9-12 range (+8 base, +0-2 wis, +1-2 resistance). Give me a good set of circumstances (I sneak in, get a surprise round, cast dominate person, Round 1, target still flat footed, cast it again Cloaked Caster adds +2 to my DC) and I have somewhere between %50 and %75 chance to dominate pretty much humanoid in my CR range who hadn't already cast protection from evil. Give me a standard low op party (Or some cr appropriate minions), where we have a fighter or rogue willing to drop humanoids with non-lethal damage, and I have an incredibly good chance to be able to dominate anyone I want.

Brova

2015-05-29, 08:38 AM

That should be roughly around the time 4th level spells come online. From there on, the Beguiler spells become more lackluster compared to the goods he got at levels 1-3. Whereas the Sorcerer gets stuff like Celerity, Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Polymorph, Wings of Flurry etc. By the time the 5th level ones roll around with Arcane Fusion its all over.

You get one of those 4th level spells at 8th. I doubt it's going to be celerity, if you're going for polymorph you're claiming a high enough level of optimization/DM permissiveness that the Beguiler should expect to get charmed minions, and getting both wings of flurry and arcane fusion (or celerity and either) is enough to push you into territory where the Beguiler could just be taking Arcane Disciple or Knowstones.

IMHO, the point where the Sorcerer pushes ahead is a brief window between the Beguiler's humanoid minions becoming irrelevant and starting to get nonhumanoid minions. So somewhere between 5th-ish and 8th, depending on how good your humanoids are.

Rainbow Beguilingsnake: If you got to throw ten levels of another class onto your your class to compete, that pretty much says that the original class couldn't compete.

It's not throwing ten levels of PrC at a class to make it good, it's throwing ten levels at a class to make it insane. As far as it goes, Beguiler/Rainbow Servant is one of the best high level builds in the game.

Charm Person: While the Beguiler might be somewhat better at this, and have more resources to throw at it, the option is equally open to the Sorcerer, and being a Cha-based caster mitigates the Beguilers advantage somewhat. So it doesn't really put the beguiler way ahead of the Sorcerer. It just one more point in the thing the Beguiler does well in the "beguiler does this thing really well, the Sorcerer can tailor himself better" list.

You're missing the point. Three points actually. One, the Beguiler's advantage is the simplicity of doing this. What the Sorcerer has to work for he gets just for existing. Two, the fact that the Sorcerer can pull of the Beguiler's tricks doesn't make the Beguiler bad. Three, because this is something the Beguiler gets for free, any resources the Sorcerer invests to get it are points the Beguiler could put towards something else (i.e. Arcane Disciple)

Heighten/Versatile: To me, this is firmly in TO-land. I consider the borders of TO land to begin where the stuff DMs allow at the table starts to end. If it is RAW, but won't be allowed anywhere, its TO to me. And I've never met a DM that will let you use two feats to skip ahead three levels of casting!

I totally agree. Not particularly sure where that came from. It's not happening it actual play land and in TO land it's overshadowed.

Arcane Disciple: Well, the Beguiler definitely gets more mileage out of this. I think it is better compared to Extra Spell than a Sorcerer picking Arcane Disciple. To use Arcane Disciple, you must pick a deity, which then limits your picks to his domains. You're likely to get at least one real gem for your fist pick of AD, when you can in practice chose from nearly any list of domain spells. If you're lucky, the domain list contains another good spell and maybe some semi-useful ones as well. Which you can use once per day. Your second pick is limited to one of maybe two further domains, and so is unlikly to pay off as much. So the marginal utility of the feat declines rapidly.

The advantage of Arcane Disciple over Extra Spell is basically that you always get a level appropriate option. Extra Spell requires you to pick from a level below your highest, which puts the Sorcerer pretty far behind on spell power. Assuming the Beguiler starts taking Arcane Disciple at 6th, he's looking for something that grants him a sweet 3rd level spell, something that grants him a sweet 4th or 5th level spell, and something that grants him a sweet 6th level spell. Taking it three times for three or for Save or Dies on Fort or Ref saves is a fairly good deal, especially considering that you already dominate Will save or dies.

SinsI

2015-05-29, 09:11 AM

Rainbow Beguilingsnake: If you got to throw ten levels of another class onto your your class to compete, that pretty much says that the original class couldn't compete.
All the rest of the classes (except Warmage) get much less from both suggested PRCs. And it starts to give significant benefits right from the start - those Domains are like a free Arcane Disciple feat.

SinsI, while some skills can be replaced by some spells in some situations, it's not really true that you can completely replace all of them. Move Silently can only be replaced by Silence if you never need to get within 15' of anyone, because the sudden cessation of background noise will alert them that you're there (there are ways around that, but they have their own drawbacks), and also lets you cast spells without needing a higher-level slot.
In that case there's the above-mentioned Zone of Silence.

Hide, which you inexplicably didn't mention, trumps all of the stealth and detection spells, once you get to even moderately-optimized bonus levels.
Earth Sense? Note that Beguiler is likely to have it from lvl 1 (to get into Rainbow Servant at level 5, or to aim for Shadowcraft Mage brokenness).

Invisibility can duplicate it 95% of the time (and, unless you really invested a lot into Hide, it trumps Hide).

Knock is a waste of a spell slot, given how common locks can be, when Open Lock can be used an unlimited number of times for free. Sleight of Hand doesn't just have "minor uses"-- It's a full-on overpowered campaign smasher.
It's a 2nd level spell, you will have plenty of those slots (16 is easy), plus you can always use a wand. And best Open Lock is your friendly Warblade's Mountain Hammer which doesn't require any investment.

Spells + skills make a much better skill monkey than just skills.

Phaederkiel

2015-05-29, 09:29 AM

Arcane Disciple: Well, the Beguiler definitely gets more mileage out of this. I think it is better compared to Extra Spell than a Sorcerer picking Arcane Disciple. To use Arcane Disciple, you must pick a deity, which then limits your picks to his domains. You're likely to get at least one real gem for your fist pick of AD, when you can in practice chose from nearly any list of domain spells. If you're lucky, the domain list contains another good spell and maybe some semi-useful ones as well. Which you can use once per day. Your second pick is limited to one of maybe two further domains, and so is unlikly to pay off as much. So the marginal utility of the feat declines rapidly.

In comparison, every use of Extra Spell should net the Sorcerer a gem, which is spammable.

for the sake of completeness: what are the best uses for Arcane disciple? (probably exempting the domains one may get via rainbow servant)
Which deity and which domains are really interesting?

And best Open Lock is your friendly Warblade's Mountain Hammer which doesn't require any investment.

except that it will be heard across the dungeon. Anyone pulls that one anywhere close an intelligent enemy, he gets ambushed shortly after.
Mountain hammer has its uses in dungeon redecorating, but it is absolutely no substitute for open lock. Neither is the spell, unless you can cast it silently.

SinsI

2015-05-29, 09:34 AM

except that it will be heard across the dungeon. Anyone pulls that one anywhere close an intelligent enemy, he gets ambushed shortly after.
Mountain hammer has its uses in dungeon redecorating, but it is absolutely no substitute for open lock. Neither is the spell, unless you can cast it silently.
Zone of Silence is hours/level...

Allianis

2015-05-29, 10:31 AM

Everyone here seems to be arguing about equal levels of optimization in order to compare the two casters, but that's a difficult proposition because optimization builds are inherently unequal. What if we took beguiler and sorcerer as base classes only, no prestige classes, and no feat-cheese? At this point, they have equal spells/day, but beguilers have a ridiculous amount of spells known in comparison to sorcerers.

At spell levels 1-3, beguilers have essentially the best spells, and at 4th level spells, the sorcerer still only gets 1 at level 8. Black Tentacles (or whatever) is nifty, but the beguiler still has some solid options. Once they reach level 10, cloudkill is just too awesome in comparison to the beguiler's level 4 spells. The beguiler will catch up at level 11, when they use advanced learning to get shadow conjuration and therefore some solid utility for backup. After that, sorcerer I think outpaces beguiler pretty heavily at least until level 18, wherein at least the beguiler gets PWK. The beguiler capstone is also pretty epic in and of itself, overcoming SR absolutely while the sorcerer can be stymied by some of the more protected BBEGs. And don't forget that the entire time, the beguiler gets to wear armor, which is another place to put enhancements that the sorcerer doesn't get out of the box.

Of course, D&D isn't all about combat. There are social considerations, traps to find, places the scout, people to pick-pocket, and all sorts of random situations which call for a rogue's deft hands. In this respect, the sorcerer is just outpaced due to shear lack of skill points and the fact that they need to focus on charisma rather than intelligence. Sure, the charisma helps in social situations, but that's a bonus that gets outpaced pretty quickly by the sheer volume of skill ranks the beguiler brings to the table. I'm not saying the sorcerer is exactly helpless in this area, but the beguiler just does a better job of it overall.

So here is my thought.

Against anything with a mind.
1-beguiler
2-beguiler
3-beguiler
4-beguiler
5-beguiler
6-beguiler
7-beguiler
8-beguiler (but it's close)
9-beguiler (getting closer)
10-sorcerer (still close)
11-beguiler (still close)
12-sorcerer (not really all that close anymore)
13-sorcerer
14-sorcerer
15-sorcerer
16-sorcerer
17-sorcerer
18-about dead even
19-sorcerer (but very close)
20-beguiler (but very close)

Against mindless foes (constructs, undead, plants, oozes, what have you)
1-beguiler (silent image can probably save you at levels 1-3)
2-beguiler
3-beguiler
4-sorcerer
5-sorcerer
6-sorcerer
7-sorcerer
8-sorcerer
9-sorcerer
10-sorcerer
11-sorcerer
12-sorcerer
13-sorcerer
14-sorcerer
15-sorcerer
16-sorcerer
17-sorcerer
18-sorcerer
19-sorcerer
20-sorcerer

During the rest of the dungeon (traps, puzzles, but not fighting)
1-beguiler
2-beguiler
3-beguiler
4-beguiler
5-beguiler
6-beguiler
7-beguiler
8-beguiler
9-beguiler
10-beguiler
11-beguiler
12-beguiler
13-beguiler
14-beguiler
15-beguiler
16-beguiler
17-beguiler
18-beguiler
19-beguiler
20-beguiler

SinsI

2015-05-29, 10:59 AM

Brova

2015-05-29, 11:54 AM

In this case beguiler has spells from two books while sorcerer has spells from twenty (extremely carefully handpicking them), so it is not a similar level of optimization at all.

This. Also, remember all those enemies you fought who did have minds? Diplomacy very explicitly states that they will provide "back up" against mindless foes.

Allianis

2015-05-29, 12:47 PM

This. Also, remember all those enemies you fought who did have minds? Diplomacy very explicitly states that they will provide "back up" against mindless foes.

You're not wrong, but you're also basing a lot of things on luck. You MAY end up facing the mindless enemies after you collect some cronies. Or, you MAY end up facing the mindless enemies first. At that point, you're just arguing circumstances, and there's no right answer to that.

I can tell you that the beguiler I'm currently playing used to spend almost his entire time at this point casting illusions to trick a bunch of mindless enemies into a trap set by the rest of the party. After a few sessions at first of completely stealing the show with my bag of tricks, the DM started completely nerfing me by putting us up against only things with either immunity or stupid-high will saves. But even that is just a circumstance. I ended up taking on Unseen Seer, getting Hunter's Eye and Arcane Strike to become a kind of rogue gish. There are too many variables to make this kind of direct comparison as a generality.

DeAnno

2015-05-29, 02:30 PM

I wanted to jump on you for ignoring the analysis on this, but then I realized it was back in the parent thread. Here it is again, edited to correct my error about how mind fog works.

So basically, you're saying that against non-peer opponents that are pretty much garbage anyway, Will saves work fine. I won't argue with that. The problem is, those aren't fights your party was probably going to lose in the first place. The reasons can vary a lot, but in the hard, dangerous fights, the enemy tends to have high saves, because it's so easy to invest in them, especially as you creep into the last half of levels. But if you're content to stomp in your easy fights and get turned into paste when things get hard, then I suppose that's fine.

SinsI

2015-05-30, 08:00 AM

I can tell you that the beguiler I'm currently playing used to spend almost his entire time at this point casting illusions to trick a bunch of mindless enemies into a trap set by the rest of the party. After a few sessions at first of completely stealing the show with my bag of tricks, the DM started completely nerfing me by putting us up against only things with either immunity or stupid-high will saves. But even that is just a circumstance. I ended up taking on Unseen Seer, getting Hunter's Eye and Arcane Strike to become a kind of rogue gish. There are too many variables to make this kind of direct comparison as a generality.

Can't you take on the role of party Buffer (Haste, Invisibility, Displacement...) and BFC (Solid fog, Legion of Sentinels)?

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 08:16 AM

So basically, you're saying that against non-peer opponents that are pretty much garbage anyway, Will saves work fine. I won't argue with that. The problem is, those aren't fights your party was probably going to lose in the first place. The reasons can vary a lot, but in the hard, dangerous fights, the enemy tends to have high saves, because it's so easy to invest in them, especially as you creep into the last half of levels. But if you're content to stomp in your easy fights and get turned into paste when things get hard, then I suppose that's fine.

Nope. I'm saying that I can routinely make thuddy opponents 2-4 levels above me into minions, with very solid chances against even casters 2-3 levels above mine. If a wizard or sorcerer 12-13 is garbage to a level 10
Beguiler, this coversation is over.

Its not like it is even a very well optimized beguiler. My sorcerer 8 in game has a +6 cha item, which he made at the first opportunity. My beguiler 10 would certainly have a + 6 int item. Thats +2 more. If I'm not taking arcane disciple (and if I am I won't be restricted to will saves) then I have free feats for Sacred Vow/Vow of Peace. Now I'm DC 26 at level 10. 28 with cloaked caster.

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 10:11 AM

for the sake of completeness: what are the best uses for Arcane disciple? (probably exempting the domains one may get via rainbow servant)
Which deity and which domains are really interesting?

Source:http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/JHtB/domains.html

I like:
Air (Flight. Blasty. Control Weather can kill armies)
Animal (SNAs, Shapechange)
Competition or Strength(low op, If melee is important)
Cold/Fire (Low op campaigns. Blasty, little utility)
Destruction (Fort SoLs)
Dragon Below (Planar Allies and Gate)
Envy (Mid-high levels only, Magic Jar, Limited Wish, Simulacrum, Wish)
Force (Blasty attack spells at low levels, wall of force, forcecage)
Glory (Blasty spells good against undead, Gate)
Healing (low op campaign only)
Kobold (Traps, Contingency, terrain changing stuff)
Protection (Energy resistance, Spell Resistance, AMF, Prismatic Sphere)
Renewal (Lesser Restoration, Heroes' Feast, PAO)
Slime (Grease, Acid Arrow, Fort SoLs, Evards Tentacles,
Spell (Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, Limited Wish, Disjunction)
Storm or Weather (like Air, trades air walk for summons).
Travel or Portal (Teleports and Gate)
Summoner (OMG yes. 5 summon monsters, 3 planar allies, Gate)
Undeath or Death or Necromancer (Fort SoLs. Minionmancy)

Madness and shadow give spells that you could get with advanced learning, but they are good spells. Certainly wouldn't want more than one, but one is ok, especially if you are optimized for illusion or enchantment save DCs.

It depends a bit on: 1. optimization level of the campaign. Is this a campaign where blasting is a good thing or hopelessly low op?
2. Anticipated campaign level. Do I CARE whether I get Shapechange or Wish?
3. Anticipated party. Am I in a combat support role? Utility caster? Skillmonkey?
4. RP considerations. Good? Evil? Race?

I think my single favorite is Callarduran Smoothhands. Summoner is awesome. Protection and Earth are good. Healing and good are campaign dependent. And he's a gnome god whose followers include illusionists.

Shaundakul's pretty good too. Portal gives D Door, Teleport, Banishment, Maze and Gate, Air gives Air walk, Gaseous Form, Control Weather, Elemental Swarm and Chain Lightning.

Farlanghn gives Travel (Longstrider, Fly, D Door, Teleport.) Weather (for your Blasting and army killing needs), Protection (lots of nice defensive spells), and Luck (junktastic for a beguiler, until you want miracle)

Nerull gives shadow (all the shadow evocation and conjuration spells, and shades), Death (Fort SoLs and undead minions), Mysticism (Spiritual Weapon, Righteous Might, Blasphemy) and pestilence (lots more fort SoLs)

Mato

2015-05-30, 10:20 AM

Everyone here seems to be arguing about equal levels of optimization in order to compare the two casters, but that's a difficult proposition because optimization builds are inherently unequal. What if we took beguiler and sorcerer as base classes only, no prestige classes, and no feat-cheese? At this point, they have equal spells/day, but beguilers have a ridiculous amount of spells known in comparison to sorcerers.Two things.

One, I like your direction. Yes, you can generally optimize away weaknesses. If you instead stick to what each Class truly has instead of what it can gain (like a fighter using hivemind & a minor scheme of mental pinnacle) these vs threads would be over a lot faster without so much wasted hot air, or bandwidth in this case.

Secondly, it's not the quantity that counts but the quality. The Beguiler has a very limited spell set that can deal damage, and due to save negs attached to them, they are really nothing more than a save-or-suck if your very lenient on what suck can mean. Another chunk are lower level divination spells, all of which are arguably out performed by contact other plane. And against an opponent with true seeing (such as most higher level casters) most of his illusions are worthless.

The beguiler has no summoning and is missing a lot of minion generation like planar binding, animate dead, gate, simulacrum, ice assassin, and mind rape. It doesn't have the I win buttons of (limited) wish. No turn breakers like planar bubble, celerity or even contingency. It has no ranged interruption like friendly fire, ray deflection or wings of cover. It can't exploit selective or aimed antimagic fields, or change it's shape using alter self, polymorph, or shapechange. It can't create new structures using wall of iron and fabricate. And it can't teleport, passwall, or dimensional door it's way through entire challenges designed for lesser mundanes.

Every single one of those requires the beguiler to work on expanding his list to compensate for what the sorcerer naturally has access to and how it cherry picks off the beguiler's list. In a game where versatility means power, there is no competition between them.

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 10:47 AM

Two things.

One, I like your direction. Yes, you can generally optimize away weaknesses. If you instead stick to what each Class truly has instead of what it can gain (like a fighter using hivemind & a minor scheme of mental pinnacle) these vs threads would be over a lot faster without so much wasted hot air, or bandwidth in this case.

Secondly, it's not the quantity that counts but the quality. The Beguiler has a very limited spell set that can deal damage, and due to save negs attached to them, they are really nothing more than a save-or-suck if your very lenient on what suck can mean. Another chunk are lower level divination spells, all of which are arguably out performed by contact other plane. And against an opponent with true seeing (such as most higher level casters) most of his illusions are worthless.

The beguiler has no summoning and is missing a lot of minion generation like planar binding, animate dead, gate, simulacrum, ice assassin, and mind rape. It doesn't have the I win buttons of (limited) wish. No turn breakers like planar bubble, celerity or even contingency. It has no ranged interruption like friendly fire, ray deflection or wings of cover. It can't exploit selective or aimed antimagic fields, or change it's shape using alter self, polymorph, or shapechange. It can't create new structures using wall of iron and fabricate. And it can't teleport, passwall, or dimensional door it's way through entire challenges designed for lesser mundanes.

Every single one of those requires the beguiler to work on expanding his list to compensate for what the sorcerer naturally has access to and how it cherry picks off the beguiler's list. In a game where versatility means power, there is no competition between them.

Its an awful lot like we're back to page one. Like we hadn't already established that Ice Assassin and mindrape are available to beguiler by advanced learning. That entire argument where I used Ice Assassin to counter Shapechange and was told that Ice Assassin was too high op.

What mundane challenges get bypassed by teleport, passwall and D Door, but not by Phase Door, Shadow Walk, Swift Etherealness and Ethereal Jaunt?

Greater Shadow Evocation creates shadow contingency. I wouldn't likely waste a spell known as a sorc on contingency if I can do that.

Planar binding is still a great spell for a wizzy. How many ranks in Knowledge planes do you have? Whats your int?

Why is animate dead a minion spell, but not dominate?

And again, the original point. At what level can the sorcerer reliably expect to do most of those things? How many levels does the beguiler flat win (at least 7, more likely 9, maybe higher), vs how many levels for the sorcerer, and how many are we just even (19-20, I have infinite wishes from Ice Assassin, you have them from Gate, game breaks down, we're both just gods)

Story

2015-05-30, 11:34 AM

Nope. I'm saying that I can routinely make thuddy opponents 2-4 levels above me into minions, with very solid chances against even casters 2-3 levels above mine. If a wizard or sorcerer 12-13 is garbage to a level 10
Beguiler, this coversation is over.

Its not like it is even a very well optimized beguiler. My sorcerer 8 in game has a +6 cha item, which he made at the first opportunity. My beguiler 10 would certainly have a + 6 int item. Thats +2 more. If I'm not taking arcane disciple (and if I am I won't be restricted to will saves) then I have free feats for Sacred Vow/Vow of Peace. Now I'm DC 26 at level 10. 28 with cloaked caster.

I'm having trouble figuring out what you're arguing here. Vow of Peace doesn't increase your save DCs. Assuming you meant Vow of Nonviolence instead, it still doesn't really work. First off, Vow of Nonviolence doesn't play well in a group of normal PCs, so you'd pretty much be limited to exalted-only games. Second, I suspect that offensive use of Dominate Person is going to break the rules of exalted behavior. At the very least, you're breaking the spirit of the rules, if not the letter. So this is mostly a TO thing.

Also, at level 10, a +6 int item is 73% of your WBL. You're much more likely to have a +4.

P.S. Cloaked Casting is a +1 DC at level 10. It only increases to +2 at level 14.

What mundane challenges get bypassed by teleport, passwall and D Door, but not by Phase Door, Shadow Walk, Swift Etherealness and Ethereal Jaunt?

Well Shadow Walk is a level higher than Teleport with half the maximum range. I'll grant you that it is a sufficient replacement in the majority of cases though.

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 12:10 PM

I'm having trouble figuring out what you're arguing here. Vow of Peace doesn't increase your save DCs. Assuming you meant Vow of Nonviolence instead, it still doesn't really work. First off, Vow of Nonviolence doesn't play well in a group of normal PCs, so you'd pretty much be limited to exalted-only games. Second, I suspect that offensive use of Dominate Person is going to break the rules of exalted behavior. At the very least, you're breaking the spirit of the rules, if not the letter. So this is mostly a TO thing.

You are right, it is Vow of Nonviolence.

How is using Dominate to make bad guys fight each other not exalted? Sounds very in spirit to me. I guess if I use them as slaves and make them do my laundry I'm in trouble. But if I treat them well and spend days encouraging them to stop selling deathsticks and rethink their life, I'm not facing any dark side points.

I agree with regards to a party, but there is kind of a double standard here. If I am rolling with a party, and I can't one shot disable something with a mind attack, I can contribute to any combat encounter with things like haste, greater invisibility and solid fog. When I respond with those, I get "well how do you actually end the encounter?" Simple. The hasted fighter murders them as they stagger one by one out of solid fog. When I talk about vow of nonviolence, I get questions about how it interacts with a party.

Alone, I will likely be using tricks like Darkstalker and Vow of Nonviolence to bypass or surprise attack encounters.
With a party, I will be relying more heavily on Craft Wondrous, buffs, battlefield control (like solid fog, vertigo field or major image) and counters like Freedom of Movement, Break Enchantment and dispel magic.

Also, at level 10, a +6 int item is 73% of your WBL. You're much more likely to have a +4.

If I buy it. If I'm in a party (the more likely scenario) I will have worked out item crafting duties with the other caster, one of us will have craft wondrous, and we will make it. Just like a sorcerer would. Just like my sorcerer did in the game I'm in now. I should be able to make one for no more than 22,500.

P.S. Cloaked Casting is a +1 DC at level 10. It only increases to +2 at level 14.

Got me there. I'll admit to having made 2 mistakes this conversation. That one and the one about Mind Fog in parent thread. Sorry. I misread the spell penetration line.

Well Shadow Walk is a level higher than Teleport with half the maximum range. I'll grant you that it is a sufficient replacement in the majority of cases though.

Agreed. But teleport isn't going to be the first spell any sorcerer takes at level 10. Maybe the second (at 11) more likely the third (at 13). So most probably, I'm either a level behind or a level ahead.

Grim Reader

2015-05-30, 12:35 PM

Quick dropin here:

for the sake of completeness: what are the best uses for Arcane disciple?

I like:
Air ...

Summoning is gold. Travel is silver. Spell is pretty garbage until late levels, you don't get any payoff until level 14 unless you spend a lot more resources.

In general, Arcane Disciple is a poor way of covering your SoL and damage weaknesses. Your DCs are set by wisdom. The difference in DCs between a spell cast of your main casting stat with a good +ability item, and a spell cast of a minor stat which will rarely have any item etc bonuses can be pretty major.

Damage is one of those things which are cumulative with several castings. A Beguiler will never be a mailman, dropping the big guy in one shot. You'll be able to help melee with the big enemy once, or drop a minon or small group of mooks once per day. Yay. So the once-per-day limit really hurts here.

dextercorvia

2015-05-30, 12:38 PM

Its an awful lot like we're back to page one. Like we hadn't already established that Ice Assassin and mindrape are available to beguiler by advanced learning. That entire argument where I used Ice Assassin to counter Shapechange and was told that Ice Assassin was too high op.

If I'm not mistaken, Beguilers only get Ice Assassin or Mindrape.

Also, IIRC, you are the one who decided to equate #of sources with optimization level. Shapechange is right there in the same book with Sorcerer. You need at least 3 additional sources to pick up Ice Assassin and Mindrape.

You are right, it is Vow of Nonviolence.

It amuses me how people never seem to mention that +4 only applies to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids.

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 12:54 PM

If I'm not mistaken, Beguilers only get Ice Assassin or Mindrape.

Also, IIRC, you are the one who decided to equate #of sources with optimization level. Shapechange is right there in the same book with Sorcerer. You need at least 3 additional sources to pick up Ice Assassin and Mindrape.

Look back. I disagreed with # of sources = optimization. I do think which sources they ARE is relevant (which, again, is why I do not think Arcane Disciple is very high op). But in any event, I was responding to a post which said "beguilers suck, because no Mindrape or Ice Assassin". If its a selling point for why sorcerers are good, no question that I can use them too.

Personally, I think Ice Assassin is a stupid spell. I can't figure out what the RAI good use of it is. It's either junk (too expensive to use for bog-standard minions) or broken (Ice Assassin the Archmage. Ice Assassin the Zodar, Ice Assassin the god). But if we are low-mid op, my spell list as it stands is super, and I can be happy with Shades. If we are talking about shapechange/wish/gate as world shaping tools to make endless wishes etc, Ice Assassin is on the same level.

I wouldn't expect most sorcerers to have both mindrape and Ice Assassin either. They only get 3 9s.

It amuses me how people never seem to mention that +4 only applies to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids.

Indeed. It only applies to the people I want to cast dominate person on. Ouch.

Story

2015-05-30, 12:56 PM

It amuses me how people never seem to mention that +4 only applies to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids.

In this case it doesn't matter because Dominate Person is humanoid only anyway.

SinsI

2015-05-30, 01:11 PM

Also, IIRC, you are the one who decided to equate #of sources with optimization level. Shapechange is right there in the same book with Sorcerer. You need at least 3 additional sources to pick up Ice Assassin and Mindrape.

Shapechange might be in the same book, but the broken forms that make it so powerful require quite a few additional sources.

dextercorvia

2015-05-30, 01:13 PM

Look back. I disagreed with # of sources = optimization.

So you did. My mistake -- you suggested that the obscurity of the source should come into play. In that case, you are pitting BOVD and Frostburn against the PHB.

Indeed. It only applies to the people I want to cast dominate person on. Ouch.

In this case it doesn't matter because Dominate Person is humanoid only anyway.

Why are we assuming you have access to people to dominate? (It is also why I assumed you were dominating Monsters).That is the difference. Pretty much whatever a regular party kills, they will find something worth Animating. Summons don't care at all what you encounter. In order for a Beguiler to accumulate minions, he has to run into the right kind of creature. There is also the issue that Domination is not really [Exalted] behavior. Compulsion is almost universally considered Evil in fantasy lore (from Harry Potter, to Wheel of Time, to LotR).

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 01:32 PM

So you did. My mistake -- you suggested that the obscurity of the source should come into play. In that case, you are pitting BOVD and Frostburn against the PHB.

Should come into play, yes. Not be the only determining factor.

BUT

I WAS RESPONDING TO A POST THAT SAID:

The beguiler has no summoning and is missing a lot of minion generation like planar binding, animate dead, gate, simulacrum, ice assassin, and mind rape.

I absolutely think that Ice Assassin is the Beguiler answer to things like shapechanging into a Zodar. It's a footnote to the fact that 18-20 is the least important part of the game and a level at which all optimized casters just break anything that isn't an optimized caster. It's clearly high op, and comparable to the high op uses of the most broken 9s.

My real answers to the 9th level spells are that I can get them too, they don't matter, and any disparity in play at that level is less important than the disparity in play in lower levels where beguiler has the advantage.

Why are we assuming you have access to people to dominate? (It is also why I assumed you were dominating Monsters).That is the difference. Pretty much whatever a regular party kills, they will find something worth Animating. Summons don't care at all what you encounter. In order for a Beguiler to accumulate minions, he has to run into the right kind of creature.

Which happens to be the most common kind of creature in most campaign worlds.

Why are we assuming that polymorph is a decent spell? Only knowledge Arcana on your skill list, 2 points per level, no int focus. If you can only polymorph into things you have seen, and stuff covered by know arcana (if you bothered investing in it) its good, but not game breaking good. Why would we assume that you have seen a nightmare (knowledge planes is not a class skill) and know its abilities for purposes of planar binding, but that I can't find a rogues guild or an orc chieftain?

Story

2015-05-30, 01:46 PM

Why are we assuming that polymorph is a decent spell? Only knowledge Arcana on your skill list, 2 points per level, no int focus. If you can only polymorph into things you have seen, and stuff covered by know arcana (if you bothered investing in it) its good, but not game breaking good. Why would we assume that you have seen a nightmare (knowledge planes is not a class skill) and know its abilities for purposes of planar binding, but that I can't find a rogues guild or an orc chieftain?

As has been repeatedly mentioned, there are no knowledge checks required by RAW. There are several potential IC justifications for this, such as magically turning into the closest valid form to whatever abilities you desire.

Incidentally, you can easily get the other knowledge skills as class skills if you want to. Lack of skill points is still a problem obviously.

Mato

2015-05-30, 02:01 PM

Its an awful lot like we're back to page one.Good, someone made a lot of good points already. Can we stop ignoring them now? Like advanced learning giving you mind rape, one of the thirty spells I mentioned off the top of my head, that's just a better version of dominate monster isn't exactly going to make things up.

Kind of like phase door and (swift) ethereal do not help your party members are are only available several levels after everyone else gets better alternatives. The beguiler's party-helping transport option is a spell that cannot be used to distinguish terrain and forces you to always arrive off target greatly increasing your chances of coming in damaged and fatigued, consumes time to transverse, and it's a spell level higher than teleport. Greater shadow evocation only creates a contingency that has a 60% chance of working or not and dominate monster only works on creatures unable to cast 1st level spells (it's called protection from alignment). These are all subpar spells that do nothing but help explain why the beguiler's options are weaker than pretty much any other spell caster. Even the warmage's spell list is better than this.

Planar binding btw is based on charisma not intelligence, you can also substitute these rollplayer knowledge checks by roleplaying (simply encounter the monster) or sticking to your guns (the kind of creature I want is one that casts wish).

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 02:04 PM

As has been repeatedly mentioned, there are no knowledge checks required by RAW. There are several potential IC justifications for this, such as magically turning into the closest valid form to whatever abilities you desire.

And as has been repetedly mentioned, that argument has exactly the same weight as telling your party members where to find the spellbook of Fistandantalus because you the player read a book, and because the speak action does not require a knowledge check. You only know IC what you know IC, and the rules to know what abilities monsters possess are clearly described in the knowledge sections. How do you magically turn into a nightmare? You can't turn into an outsider with polymorph, and even if you could, you still don't know what one is.

Incidentally, you can easily get the other knowledge skills as class skills if you want to. Lack of skill points is still a problem obviously.

Of course you can. Alternate class abilities from wierd sources. Or feats. Lots of ways. None are core, and accessible without spending resources, so the sorcerer with access to the high end stuff in polymorph and the planar binding line is very much at equivalent optimization to a beguiler whose spell list includes:

Summoner Domain Spells

Summon Monster I: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster II: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster III: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Planar Ally, Lesser: Exchange services with a 6 HD extraplanar creature.
Summon Monster V: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Planar Ally: As lesser planar ally, but up to 16 HD.
Summon Monster VII: Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Planar Ally, Greater: As lesser planar ally, but up to 24 HD.
Gate: Connects two planes for travel or summoning.
Earth Domain Spells

Magic Stone: Three stones become +1 projectiles, 1d6 +1 damage.
Soften Earth and Stone: Turns stone to clay or dirt to sand or mud.
Stone Shape: Sculpts stone into any shape.
Spike Stones: Creatures in area take 1d8 damage, may be slowed.
Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Stoneskin: Ignore 10 points of damage per attack.
Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 5'/level radius.
Iron Body: Your body becomes living iron.
Elemental Swarm: Summons multiple elementals (Earth only).

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 02:23 PM

Good, someone made a lot of good points already. Can we stop ignoring them now?

{scrubbed}

Kind of like phase door and (swift) ethereal do not help your party members are are only available several levels after everyone else gets better alternatives.

{scrubbed}
2. you are again wrong about what beguilers can do. You can tell phase door to let party members in when you cast the spell. You can also bring a person through with you.
3. This assumes that the sorcerer is taking D Door at 8 and Teleport at 10. While possible, he's pretty underpowered if all he is taking in his higher level slots are transport spells.

Greater shadow evocation only creates a contingency that has a 60% chance of working or not

{scrubbed} A contingency like "If I am hit with a weapon, Greater Invisibility, or Swift Etherealness" works like a charm.

and dominate monster only works on creatures unable to cast 1st level spells (it's called protection from alignment).

Only if they cast it before I dominate them. It only lasts minutes.

Planar binding btw is based on charisma not intelligence,

Making the critter do what you want is Cha. Knowing the optimum critter to summon is Int.

you can also substitute these rollplayer knowledge checks by roleplaying (simply encounter the monster)

If you can simply encounter a nightmare, I can simply encounter a rogue.

or sticking to your guns (the kind of creature I want is one that casts wish).

OK, what kind of creatures do that? That isn't a kind of creature. It is a special ability. Knowledge check, DC 10+HD.

Troacctid

2015-05-30, 02:39 PM

Even the warmage's spell list is better than this.

Ha! Ahaha, hahaha. Not in a million years it isn't.

Karl Aegis

2015-05-30, 03:19 PM

Ha! Ahaha, hahaha. Not in a million years it isn't.

But with Advanced Learning, Arcane Disciple and Rainbow Servant they can have a better list than the beguiler's.

Troacctid

2015-05-30, 03:26 PM

But with Advanced Learning, Arcane Disciple and Rainbow Servant they can have a better list than the beguiler's.

No...no they can't.

Nihilarian

2015-05-30, 03:38 PM

But with Advanced Learning, Arcane Disciple and Rainbow Servant they can have a better list than the beguiler's.if you have to replace your entire spell list to get a good spell list, you do not, in fact, have a good spell list.

ZamielVanWeber

2015-05-30, 04:27 PM

But with Advanced Learning, Arcane Disciple and Rainbow Servant they can have a better list than the beguiler's.

And can promptly be outshone by the Beguiler doing the exact same thing. Using the massive cleric spell list as justification for why warmage's piddly spell list is not piddly won't work.

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 04:36 PM

Summoning is gold. Travel is silver. Spell is pretty garbage until late levels, you don't get any payoff until level 14 unless you spend a lot more resources.

Anyspell gives you Alter Self. A good spell, better if your class has knowledge local. Greater Anyspell comes on line at 12. It gives any spell up to level 5. No one argues that wizards are weak because hey have to spend resources to know every spell in their list.

In general, Arcane Disciple is a poor way of covering your SoL and damage weaknesses. Your DCs are set by wisdom. The difference in DCs between a spell cast of your main casting stat with a good +ability item, and a spell cast of a minor stat which will rarely have any item etc bonuses can be pretty major.

Tragically, one of the few weaknesses they have is being slightly MAD with wisdom. It's probably not going to be much more than 10 points behind Int. Thats a 5 point difference in DC. Now, since the only time I will use a fort SoL is if I am facing something with a wisdom focus and good will progression, or something immune to illusions and mind affecting, I don't feel too bad there.

While we're here, has anyone mentioned that beguiler has a medium range, AOE, Non-mind affecting, fort save or suck that I can exempt my allies from at level 3 (CL 6)? Vertigo field is kind of cool.

Damage is one of those things which are cumulative with several castings. A Beguiler will never be a mailman, dropping the big guy in one shot. You'll be able to help melee with the big enemy once, or drop a minon or small group of mooks once per day. Yay. So the once-per-day limit really hurts here.

Once per day per spell. In a game where blasting is actually something that happens regularly, I could, for example, take 2 blasty domains and get 5-10 blasty spells. In practice, short of mailmen and the like, we pretty much all agree blasting is sub-optimal, and the only times I really WANT to be blasting are to do things like killing crowds of mooks, finalizing the last bit of damage on an already heavily injured boss, or maybe swarms. Its something to use that Rod of Maximize Spell that was in the random treasure on until you sell it.

My default blasty AOE spell, by the way, is Mass Whelm. One target/level 8-10d6, will save. It does leave some things to be desired (mind affecting, close range, Will save or none) but is in other ways better than the more common blasty equivalents like Fireball or Lightning Bolt (easier to target/requires no extra resources to shape party members out of the blast, energy resistance is also a common problem that requires resources to overcome). Not great, but good enough vs. mooks that I won't likely be using 1/day spells unless they are immune to mind affecting. I don't brag on this one much, because fireball kind of sucks, and this spell is within spitting distance of fireball (situationally better or worse)

Troacctid

2015-05-30, 04:46 PM

While we're here, has anyone mentioned that beguiler has a medium range, AOE, Non-mind affecting, fort save or suck that I can exempt my allies from at level 3 (CL 6)? Vertigo field is kind of cool.
All Pattern spells are mind-affecting.

Mato

2015-05-30, 04:56 PM

{scrubbed}Going to stop you right there. Your complaints about me have no relevancy to the discussion and it makes you appear as if you're at wit's end. Moving to insulting someone instead of actually debating their points.

And you need to read phase door, it has a limitation of the number of creatures that can pass through it and I don't think you understand how shadow magic works or not. The contingency it's self only has a 40% chance it does nothing, nothing includes triggering the linked spell no matter how real that one is or not.

Ha! Ahaha, hahaha. Not in a million years it isn't.You'd be highly surprised. I'll follow up with this a little more in depth tomorrow when I have the time to list things. But you're not going to like the wider range of warmage spells if you glance at the list your self. For one thing, he has viable crowd control effects like cloudkill, black tentacles, and waves of exhaustion. He also has a high number of save-or-dies just like the beguiler, but his damage option lets his offense remain viable against opponents with high SR/saves.

Shadowcraft mage is the primary reason he has a weak optimization plateau, that can again the sorcerer is strictly better.

Grim Reader

2015-05-30, 05:23 PM

Anyspell gives you Alter Self. A good spell, better if your class has knowledge local. Greater Anyspell comes on line at 12. It gives any spell up to level 5. No one argues that wizards are weak because hey have to spend resources to know every spell in their list.

Anyspell requires a domain spell slot to work. Without investing further resources in getting domain slots (I think a PrC is the only way for a Beguiler?) it is useless for you. From memory, there is nothing in the Spell Domain that you can use and don't already have before level 7.

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 05:49 PM

Going to stop you right there. Your complaints about me have no relevancy to the discussion and it makes you appear as if you're at wit's end. Moving to insulting someone instead of actually debating their points.

{scrubbed}

And you need to read phase door, it has a limitation of the number of creatures that can pass through it

Duration: One usage per two levels
.....
This spell creates an ethereal passage through wooden, plaster, or stone walls, but not other materials. The phase door is invisible and inaccessible to all creatures except you, and only you can use the passage. You disappear when you enter the phase door and appear when you exit. If you desire, you can take one other creature (Medium or smaller) through the door. This counts as two uses of the door.

You can allow other creatures to use the phase door by setting some triggering condition for the door. Such conditions can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. They can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities.

I get phase door at level 14. So 7 uses. I set a triggering condition, like saying the words "phase door". I go through, then up to 6 party members. You said "Kind of like phase door and (swift) ethereal do not help your party members are are only available several levels after everyone else gets better alternatives". Clearly, it does help up to 6 party members, assuming that that was in fact your argument.

and I don't think you understand how shadow magic works or not. The contingency it's self only has a 40% chance it does nothing, nothing includes triggering the linked spell no matter how real that one is or not.

This spell functions like shadow conjuration, except that it can duplicate any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 6th level or lower. The illusory conjurations created deal three-fifths (60%) damage to nonbelievers, and nondamaging effects are 60% likely to work against nonbelievers.

Shadow conjurations are actually one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength.

The key word there is nonbelievers. I am a nonbeliever if I succeed in my will save against the spell. I can choose to automatically fail my save, so there is a 0% chance that I am a nonbeliever. If I use it to cast, Cloudkill say, on you, and you make your will save, you become a nonbeliever, and it only has a 60% chance to hit you. Shadow Contingency works just like contingency, except that I can cast it in a round instead of 10 minutes. (also works well for duplicating spells like Phantom Steed, or for spell likes from summoned creatures, because...

A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it’s recognized as shadowy). It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses. Against a creature that recognizes it as a shadow creature, however, the shadow creature’s damage is one-fifth (20%) normal, and all special abilities that do not deal lethal damage are only 20% likely to work. (Roll for each use and each affected character separately.)

So I can create, for example, a Shadow Bralani Eladrin, fail my will save, and since I do not then recognize it as a shadow creature, it can heal me with cure serious wounds without failure.

Story

2015-05-30, 05:58 PM

Wouldn't the fact that you yourself cast it be considered proof that the illusion isn't real? I don't think you make a save in that case.

dextercorvia

2015-05-30, 06:06 PM

I'm seeing an awful lot of Shrodinger's Domain from Arcane Disciple to cover Beguiler weak points. We can go back and forth all day.

I'm going to (big surprise here) propose a same game test. I recommend somewhere in the Level 5-9 sweet spot. I'm willing to stipulate that in levels 1-4, the Beguiler Chassis gives it a sizable advantage, and there seems to be a consensus that by level 10-12, Sorcerer pulls ahead.

I'd be willing to build a Sorcerer. Would anyone be willing to create a balance of adventuring challenges for us to attempt to solo? Would any of the Beguiler proponents be willing to put their money where their mouths (keyboards?) are?

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 06:19 PM

Wouldn't the fact that you yourself cast it be considered proof that the illusion isn't real? I don't think you make a save in that case.

I don't see anything that says you can't choose to believe in your own illusions. All I can find is the line that says you can always choose to fail saves. I think you can.

When I do a search, I find that Streamofthesky says you can, and Treantmonk says "The debate moves on without resolution - it comes down to whether you believe that the caster can choose whether to save vs. the shadow spell or whether you believe that they automatically disbelieve. Better check with your DM..."

Worst case, any other pc can choose to disbelieve. Best case, no fail.

I'll also refer to this thread, in which many senior posters seem to believe that it works http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?206489-Shadow-Conjuration-and-Shadow-Evocation-What-s-the-point.

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 06:21 PM

dextercorvia

2015-05-30, 06:37 PM

I've been supporting going to individual levels since the beginning. I'll build a beguiler.

Do you have a level preference? All other things being equal, I think odd levels favor Sorcerers slightly since beguilers get all of their spells on the evens.

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 06:56 PM

Do you have a level preference? All other things being equal, I think odd levels favor Sorcerers slightly since beguilers get all of their spells on the evens.

I do not have a preference. On 5 I get silent spell, on 7 I get advanced learning. I think the first point where it should really matter is 9. If 5 or 7 is a clear loss, I have no argument left.

I will ask that if you plan to use Polymorph line, you throw some skill points into knowledges.

I suggest two nearly identical sets of challenges. Set 2 has a CR 3-4 levels higher than set 1, but we each have with us an NPC Fighter, Rogue, and Cleric of our same level, straight out of DMG. If one of us does better with the party and the other without, I think that would be informative as well.

dextercorvia

2015-05-30, 07:03 PM

Gnaeus

2015-05-30, 07:15 PM

I will run straight classes sorcerer then, so there are no PrCs clouding the issue. Let's say level 7, since Advanced Learning is Beguiler's best native customization. I don't have any necessary restrictions on sources. Do you have a preference there?

I think straight classes is better. In play, I'd be looking at a mindbender dip, but only to get better advanced learning, so it won't matter.

No dragon mag/compendium. No Fiend Folio. Otherwise I'm pretty good with anything.

Ban anything that gives accelerated spell access, like Heighten/Versatile spellcaster combo? Can still take the parts, but we don't get to pull open our level 4 lists?

Oh, and no Dragonwrought Kobolds! Thats some TO stuff.

dextercorvia

2015-05-30, 07:32 PM

I think straight classes is better. In play, I'd be looking at a mindbender dip, but only to get better advanced learning, so it won't matter.

No dragon mag/compendium. No Fiend Folio. Otherwise I'm pretty good with anything.

Ban anything that gives accelerated spell access, like Heighten/Versatile spellcaster combo? Can still take the parts, but we don't get to pull open our level 4 lists?

Oh, and no Dragonwrought Kobolds! Thats some TO stuff.

I can agree to most of that. Though I consider Greater Draconic Rite of Passage as pretty vanilla Sorcerer stuff, I can see why it would unfairly advantage sorcerer. Losing Dragon Compendium hurts because of Bloodline feats, and I already mentioned it in an earlier post. Would you reconsider that one book?

How do you feel about Flaws? I can go either way on them for this purpose.

Lans

2015-05-31, 01:21 AM

The difference between tier 2 and tier 3 is power.

A beguiler can be optimized to tier 2 with diplomacy focus, or charm person abuse.

Sorcerers can do those too, but the can also do efreetis, power word pain, launch bolt, level draining snaps, rope trick, alterself, etc.

We could go over broken tricks on a level by level basis that a sorcerer and beguiler would have access to.

Brova

2015-05-31, 06:14 AM

The difference between tier 2 and tier 3 is power.

So why exactly is a class who's list is full of save or dies tier 3? Look at some of the other stuff in tier 3 for a second: Bard, Factotum, and Binder. None of those guys get spells that end people, especially not at level one. The definition of tier two is that the class has some broken tricks. Setting aside the degree to which the tier system is terrible and incoherent, the Beguiler certainly has the broken tricks of charm person, diplomacy, and abuse magic device.

A beguiler can be optimized to tier 2 with diplomacy focus, or charm person abuse.

That's not optimization. That's just playing a Beguiler at all. The "diplomacy focus" here is just taking social skills and being level two. Social skills you are fairly likely to be taking already and which have utility of their own.

Sorcerers can do those too, but the can also do efreetis, power word pain, launch bolt, level draining snaps, rope trick, alterself, etc.

Efreet isn't a "broken trick" in the same way charm person or whatever is. Getting a spell-like or supernatural wish from some monster doesn't make you more powerful, it destroys the entire game (remember - there is no restriction on how good of a magic item you can wish for). Of course, the Beguiler can do it sooner thanks to abuse magic device and the candle.

power word pain is an enchantment which the Beguiler gets from Advanced Learning. Also, that's the Sorcerer's one book other than core (to match the PHB II needed for Beguiler).

launch bolt is a moderately good attack spell. It's not nothing, but it doesn't really compare very well to a longbow, let alone to color spray. Of course, that's another book, meaning the Beguiler could pick up Rainbow Servant or Shadowcraft Mage.

Fell Drain cantrips are okay, but the big payoff there is minions, which the Beguiler gets starting at level 2. Also, more books for the Beguiler. I guess maybe runestaff or knowstone abuse?

rope trick is a situational spell. It can be useful, but only if your party is unable to go back to town and expects the DM to ambush you in the middle of the night. Also, that's a 2nd level spell the Sorcerer is getting instead of alter self or glitterdust.

alter self is not a particularly strong argument. It's broken (but less powerful than charmed armies), complicated, and requires huge amounts of dumpster diving to be truly good.

But now let's talk about what the Beguiler is doing. First of all, we're going to be discussing the Rainbow Servant Beguiler build (because that is a fantastic build). It goes roughly Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10/idk anything you want 4. I've gone over most of it earlier, but two things to note about domains.

First, as far as I can tell, spontaneous casters can use spells from prestige domains at will (subject to spell slots obviously). That's nothing gamebreaking on its own, but it ups the utility a Beguiler gets from Rainbow Servant significantly.

Second, substitute domain. As you may or may not know, substitute domain is a spell from Complete Champion. As you probably don't know, this spell is extremely poorly written (well, poorly thought out). It states that: "Upon casting substitute domain, you can swap one of your current domains for another that your deity offers." It goes on to explain extremely clearly what that does (you get the new granted power and the new spells, you lose the old ones, etc), but absolutely fails to explain two key points. One, what happens to Clerics that don't worship a god? Two, what happens if you are a non-Cleric with domain access? The strict reading is that a non-Cleric with domains must swap them for other domains offered by their god. Fortunately, there's no penalty for switching gods. So if a Beguiler with one level of Rainbow Servant simply declares that he worships Hextor or The Shadow, he can shuffle his domains to them for full value. Fun times.

TL;DR - One level of Rainbow Servant plus a wand of substitute domain lets you cast almost any spell you want. That's almost worth losing caster levels for.

So the sum? With Core + PHB II + CD + CC + CA, you get a caster with a core of high powered save or dies and almost immediate access to any spell in the game. And yes, this is a Beguiler build. After all, he gets access to all the spells from a domain at no cost to himself. And the abuse magic device to make his wand work.

dextercorvia

2015-05-31, 08:58 AM

So why exactly is a class who's list is full of save or dies tier 3? Look at some of the other stuff in tier 3 for a second: Bard, Factotum, and Binder. None of those guys get spells that end people, especially not at level one. The definition of tier two is that the class has some broken tricks. Setting aside the degree to which the tier system is terrible and incoherent, the Beguiler certainly has the broken tricks of charm person, diplomacy, and abuse magic device.

You realize that a Bard has all three of those things, yet you just rightfully said it belongs in T3.

Efreet isn't a "broken trick" in the same way charm person or whatever is. Getting a spell-like or supernatural wish from some monster doesn't make you more powerful, it destroys the entire game (remember - there is no restriction on how good of a magic item you can wish for). Of course, the Beguiler can do it sooner thanks to abuse magic device and the candle.

That is a definitional statement of the kinds of broken (game breaking) tricks that need to be Native to a Class in order to consider the class T1/T2. Item abuse does not go into tier discussion because it is available to anyone.

power word pain is an enchantment which the Beguiler gets from Advanced Learning.

Not at first level, which is when it is the most useful.

alter self is not a particularly strong argument. It's broken (but less powerful than charmed armies), complicated, and requires huge amounts of dumpster diving to be truly good.

I'm not sure what the games you play in are like, but Charm Person does not make people into your personal army.

But now let's talk about what the Beguiler is doing. First of all, we're going to be discussing the Rainbow Servant Beguiler build (because that is a fantastic build). It goes roughly Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 10/idk anything you want 4. I've gone over most of it earlier, but two things to note about domains.

And now your argument devolves into you comparing a Build to a Class -- and not just any build, but one that is making an argument from silence in the rules that there is no penalty for switching deities. You either need to compare Build to Build or Class to Class.

Brova

2015-05-31, 09:09 AM

You realize that a Bard has all three of those things, yet you just rightfully said it belongs in T3.

The Bard gets six levels of spells which suck. Yes it gets abuse magic device and diplomacy, but it doesn't actually have the follow through that the Beguiler does (i.e. spells that win the game). It's a case of being strictly better. Like how you'd never play an Expert if you could play a Factotum.

That is a definitional statement of the kinds of broken (game breaking) tricks that need to be Native to a Class in order to consider the class T1/T2. Item abuse does not go into tier discussion because it is available to anyone.

So we're expected to accept that the power of a class should evaluate the game destroying power of wish abuse, but not buying items? That's insane.

Not at first level, which is when it is the most useful.

Again, color spray, sleep, charm person and hypnotism.

I'm not sure what the games you play in are like, but Charm Person does not make people into your personal army.

Did you even read the spell? It turns people friendly, a DC 20 diplomacy check turns them helpful, and then they will "protect", "aid", or "back up" you.

And now your argument devolves into you comparing a Build to a Class -- and not just any build, but one that is making an argument from silence in the rules that there is no penalty for switching deities. You either need to compare Build to Build or Class to Class.

Oh my god, I evaluated the class in a way that reflects how people would play the class in an actual game. I'm sorry, that's totally unfair. I should obviously be comparing a Beguiler with no items, feats, prestige classes, advanced learning, or skills to a Sorcerer casting alter self. My bad. Seriously, if you think that a Sorcerer build would be so much better, post one.

Mato

2015-05-31, 10:09 AM

Setting aside the degree to which the tier system is terrible and incoherent,There was been some remakes, including a few attempts at a 5~12 categorical listing.

The Bard gets six levels of spells which suck.The bard has some very amazing spells. First (almost) everything the beguiler has within the spell level range plus several divination/social spells the beguiler doesn't. The bard also has summoning, healing, crowd control, save-or-suck/die, saveless spells, amazing party buffs and a couple of those are unique to the bard or prc splashes, they can even steal another's persisted buff.

You also think beguilers should always fully progress rainbow servant, they must dedicate their build to expanding their spells known, but let me ask you this. Is the reason why you think they should an admittance to a beguiler's limitations?

You also don't have to be so sour that the sorcerer gets alter self and the beguiler doesn't, classes were never created to be equal.

Brova

2015-05-31, 10:24 AM

The bard has some very amazing spells. First (almost) everything the beguiler has within the spell level range plus several divination/social spells the beguiler doesn't.

The Beguiler is already on the low end of acceptable spell progressions. The Bard doesn't even get first level spells til second level. He manages to keep up with 2nd level spells, but then immediately falls behind. By the time the Bard gets 3rd level spells, Wizards have 4ths. By the time he gets 4ths, the Beguiler has 5ths. His endgame is stuff like summon monster VI and eyebite, which is stacking up against demand, mindblank, power word stun, and Cleric Spell Access. That would be acceptable if it was his backup plan and he was also a Warblade or something, or if the spells were a pile of buffs and he had some kind of combat chassis. But that's not true. The Bard has spellcasting ability appropriate for his cohort, or eventually his cohort's cohort.

The bard also has summoning, healing, crowd control, save-or-suck/die, saveless spells, amazing party buffs and a couple of those are unique to the bard or prc splashes, they can even steal another's persisted buff.

Sure, off of five spells known and four spells per day. And two spell levels behind. Seriously, a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant without text trumps table is a match for that.

You also think beguilers should always fully progress rainbow servant, they must dedicate their build to expanding their spells known, but let me ask you this. Is the reason why you think they should an admittance to a beguiler's limitations?

The Beguiler dumpster diving for ways to get more spells is the same process (shake a bunch of books til broken stuff falls out) and effect (huge numbers of options) as abusing polymorph spells. It just happens that the intermediate step is "take a prestige class" rather than "figure out polymorph". You would have a point if I was suggesting something like Beguiler/Ur-Priest, where the Beguiler had no impact on the rest of the build. But I'm not. The Rainbow Servant provides unique power to the Beguiler, much like the Persist Spell feat provides unique power to the Incantatrix.

You also don't have to be so sour that the sorcerer gets alter self and the beguiler doesn't, classes were never created to be equal.

What? I'm not upset about that. I just don't get the mindset where alter self dumpster diving is a legitimate part of the power of a class, but feats, PrCs, and items are not. It is unfair to compare "alter self with access to every MM, adventure, and splatbook" to "Beguiler, no items, skills or feats."

AmberVael

2015-05-31, 10:30 AM

nyjastul69

2015-05-31, 10:31 AM

The Bard gets six levels of spells which suck. Yes it gets abuse magic device and diplomacy, but it doesn't actually have the follow through that the Beguiler does (i.e. spells that win the game). It's a case of being strictly better. Like how you'd never play an Expert if you could play a Factotum.

So we're expected to accept that the power of a class should evaluate the game destroying power of wish abuse, but not buying items? That's insane.

Again, color spray, sleep, charm person and hypnotism.

Did you even read the spell? It turns people friendly, a DC 20 diplomacy check turns them helpful, and then they will "protect", "aid", or "back up" you.

Oh my god, I evaluated the class in a way that reflects how people would play the class in an actual game. I'm sorry, that's totally unfair. I should obviously be comparing a Beguiler with no items, feats, prestige classes, advanced learning, or skills to a Sorcerer casting alter self. My bad. Seriously, if you think that a Sorcerer build would be so much better, post one.

Addressing the bolded bit.

Ask your DM about that. I wouldn't allow it. Charm Person sets them to 'friendly'. Diplomacy cannot alter the effect of Charm Person.

Nihilarian

2015-05-31, 10:35 AM

A reminder that the bard's 6th level spells include 8th level Wizard spells, such as Mass Charm Monster and Irresistible Dance.

Gnaeus

2015-05-31, 10:37 AM

I can agree to most of that. Though I consider Greater Draconic Rite of Passage as pretty vanilla Sorcerer stuff, I can see why it would unfairly advantage sorcerer. Losing Dragon Compendium hurts because of Bloodline feats, and I already mentioned it in an earlier post. Would you reconsider that one book?

How do you feel about Flaws? I can go either way on them for this purpose.

I am flaw neutral.

I do not consider greater draconic rite of passage as any more vanilla than any other advanced casting trick. We know we can both access level 4 spells at level 7. Loredrakes are also right out. If we want to compete at level 8, I'd rather compete at level 8 than at level 7 with Greater rite of passage and Heighten/Versatile.

I don't have dragon compendium, and I think dragon content is not allowed at many tables. I don't really know what I'm agreeing to. Can I see the thing in question?

AmberVael

2015-05-31, 10:41 AM

Gnaeus

2015-05-31, 10:44 AM

Sure, off of five spells known and four spells per day. And two spell levels behind. Seriously, a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant without text trumps table is a match for that.

The bard answer to Rainbow Servant is Sublime Chord. Which is worse than text over table RS in the sense that Sorcerer is worse than Wizard. Compared with table over text RS, it would be a good debate in another thread.

Brova

2015-05-31, 10:46 AM

You realize that not only does Bard get access to really cool spells that Beguiler doesn't (including spells that fit the Beguiler theme like some of the later image spells), it also gets a lot of Beguiler's best spells at the same time or even sometimes earlier than the beguiler?

Two things. First, the Bard is behind or tied at levels 1 - 6. It does pull ahead a little by at 7th (they do get charm person a level early), but from that point it is at or behind par for the rest of the game. Second, the Bard gets significantly less spells per day, and a vastly worse mechanic for learning spells.

Ask your DM about that. I wouldn't allow it. Charm Person sets them to 'friendly'. Diplomacy cannot alter the effect of Charm Person.

Oberoni Fallacy. According to the rules charmed creatures are "treated as friendly". At best that means friendly overrides modifications and they jump to helpful when the spell (but not the diplomacy) wears off. Obviously your DM could change how that rule works, but at that point you can't have a meaningfully transferable discussion.

A reminder that the bard's 6th level spells include 8th level Wizard spells, such as Mass Charm Monster and Irresistible Dance.

That's true. But it's not really enough. The only level where the Bard gets spells ahead of the Beguiler is 7th (it gets charm monster as a 3rd level spell). Everywhere else it's at or behind in terms of spell level, with far worse actual casting.

AmberVael

2015-05-31, 11:15 AM

Two things. First, the Bard is behind or tied at levels 1 - 6. It does pull ahead a little by at 7th (they do get charm person a level early), but from that point it is at or behind par for the rest of the game. Second, the Bard gets significantly less spells per day, and a vastly worse mechanic for learning spells.

It has several points where it is substantially ahead at levels 1-7, suggestion and charm monster being the prime examples, gets most of the key spells (Glitterdust, Dominate Person) at identical timings, and other good spells generally no more than a level late. And then it also gets a ton of cool stuff that beguiler doesn't get at all, like Shadow spells, or Persistant Image, Programmed Image, Permanent Image, Modify Memory, Irresistable Dance- or completely different things like Improvisation (my favorite first level spell of all time), and the-infamous-for-this-thread Alter Self.

In the end the bard is unsurprisingly less of a spellcaster than the Beguiler... but its list is substantial and certainly competitive. Saying it sucks is really just flat out wrong, and there is reason to go for it, even over Beguiler.

Brova

2015-05-31, 11:45 AM

It has several points where it is substantially ahead at levels 1-7, suggestion and charm monster being the prime examples, gets most of the key spells (Glitterdust, Dominate Person) at identical timings, and other good spells generally no more than a level late.

The timings on suggestion and charm monster are nice, and getting charm monster early is actually very good. But you're getting like one casting a day. The Beguiler would certainly give up a lot to get charm monster at 7th, he's not likely to give up 4 castings of suggestion, haste, or hold person.

And then it also gets a ton of cool stuff that beguiler doesn't get at all, like Shadow spells, or Persistant Image, Programmed Image, Permanent Image, Modify Memory, Irresistable Dance- or completely different things like Improvisation (my favorite first level spell of all time), and the-infamous-for-this-thread Alter Self.

But you know, no Rainbow Servant. And no real utility out of Shadowcraft Mage (emulating 5th level spells at 18th is not a good deal).

AmberVael

2015-05-31, 11:49 AM

But you know, no Rainbow Servant.

You keep talking about Beguiler/Rainbow Servant like its something that actually happens in games and is the common standard for Beguilers, and it makes me really wonder what kind of games you are used to.

Brova

2015-05-31, 11:58 AM

You keep talking about Beguiler/Rainbow Servant like its something that actually happens in games and is the common standard for Beguilers, and it makes me really wonder what kind of games you are used to.

It's the standard for Beguilers in the way that alter self dumpster diving is for Sorcerers. In an actual game, you can just play a Beguiler and perform to the level of any other class in the game. But that's not what people are assuming for Sorcerers, so it's not what I'm assuming for Beguiler. It is incredibly dishonest to argue that we should evaluate Sorcerer cheese, but not Beguiler cheese.

AmberVael

2015-05-31, 12:00 PM

Getting some extra mileage out of alter self, like a burrow speed or flight speed, is hardly comparable to being able to spontaneously cast the entire cleric list.

Besides, this wasn't even about sorcerers or alter self. It was about a bog standard, completely used as normal and intended bard.

Brova

2015-05-31, 12:06 PM

Getting some extra mileage out of alter self, like a burrow speed or flight speed, is hardly comparable to being able to spontaneously cast the entire cleric list.

In the vast majority of instances, optimization is constrained not by power level, but by complexity. It is genuinely harder to convince a DM to follow the polymorph rules than it is to convince him to let you take a PrC (though text versus table makes Rainbow Servant an interesting case). Of course, it is also worth noting that the Rainbow Servant is a thing that happens after the logic of the game has collapsed under the weight of high level casters, whereas alter self happens when the game can at least pretend to work.

Besides, this wasn't even about sorcerers or alter self. It was about a bog standard, completely used as normal and intended bard.

Okay, so bard versus beguiler. Bard trades three quarters of his ability to cast spells for ... some songs? Beguiler may get a couple of spells later, but he gets massively more spells and can add them to his list with zero effort. Seriously, Core + one book Bard versus Beguiler does not stack up.

Aleolus

2015-05-31, 12:07 PM

...6+ pages of debate on this. Hopefully I can settle this with one sentence and some exposition. *ahem* It depends on the circumstances. If you taje a Sorcerer and have them specialize in enchantment and illusion spells like a Beguiler, then the beguiler wins every level, due to having higher hp, ac, and class abilities that make those spells better. Any other type of spell selection for the sorcerer, though, renders the point moot because it will depend on what you are wanting to do. Want to get past a group of guards? Beguiler. Want to blow those guards to kingdom come? Sorcerer. Want to make that owlbear think your a big bad dragon? Beguiler. Want to turn the owlbear into a cuddly little bunny? Sorcerer. Its like comparing apples and oranges.

Story

2015-05-31, 12:21 PM

How about we agree to stop bringing up Alter Self/Polymorph, etc. if you agree to stop bringing up Rainbow Servant and Arcane Disciple?

atemu1234

2015-05-31, 12:24 PM

How about we agree to stop bringing up Alter Self/Polymorph, etc. if you agree to stop bringing up Rainbow Servant and Arcane Disciple?

Are you kidding? At least those are spells inherent to sorcerers and wizards. Rainbow servant is just showing how strong the cleric spell list is.

Brova

2015-05-31, 12:27 PM

How about we agree to stop bringing up Alter Self/Polymorph, etc. if you agree to stop bringing up Rainbow Servant and Arcane Disciple?

Provisionally, sure. Those things are emblematic with a broader problem with the logic people are using though. The issue I have is the assumption that dumpster diving for spells (or in alter self's case, forms) is a fine and legitimate part of optimization, but that items and prestige classes are not. I'd actually prefer if someone would outline a single Sorcerer build with a reasonable number of sources (say, Core + Completes + wildcard) and explain how that stacks up to a Beguiler. Basically, as long as the Sorcerer is able to live in quantum spell list land where he counts all his 4th level spells as virtues despite learning a total of 4 ever, the Beguiler is never going to stack up without crazy stuff of his own. But if someone put up an actual build that made actual choices, we could have a debate about relative merits.

Are you kidding? At least those are spells inherent to sorcerers and wizards. Rainbow servant is just showing how strong the cleric spell list is.

Not quite. It's showing how strong the Cleric spell list is with the Beguiler spellcasting mechanic. Similarly, Incantatrix and Persist Spell. Persisting stuff isn't "not really a strength of the Incantatrix" because other people can do it. It's a strength of the Incantatrix because he does it better. Or imagine that Warlocks could pick invocations by taking any spell a Wizard of their level could cast and getting it as an at-will spell-like ability. There would be some cases where it would be pretty similar to a Wizard (fireball, animate dead) but some cases where the Warlock's mechanic made it uniquely strong (dominate person, spells with XP or GP costs, spells that produce GP).

Of course, the substitute domain trick is fairly unique to the Beguiler (and similar casters).

AmberVael

2015-05-31, 12:29 PM

In the vast majority of instances, optimization is constrained not by power level, but by complexity. It is genuinely harder to convince a DM to follow the polymorph rules than it is to convince him to let you take a PrC (though text versus table makes Rainbow Servant an interesting case). Of course, it is also worth noting that the Rainbow Servant is a thing that happens after the logic of the game has collapsed under the weight of high level casters, whereas alter self happens when the game can at least pretend to work.
This sounds like you're agreeing with me that using alter self in the way I described is reasonable and possible within a game, while Rainbow Servant pretty much never happens?

Okay, so bard versus beguiler. Bard trades three quarters of his ability to cast spells for ... some songs? Beguiler may get a couple of spells later, but he gets massively more spells and can add them to his list with zero effort. Seriously, Core + one book Bard versus Beguiler does not stack up.

My objection was that you said the bard spellcasting sucks, and that you discounted that it can in fact get the kind of power spells you describe (Suggestion, Glitterdust, Dominate Person, Irresistable Dance), and that you apparently did not consider its ability to choose from a wider list of spells. I'm not trying to say that the two classes are utterly equal in power and capabilities. Just, bard is definitely a solid caster, even if it is a bit odd in comparison to the typical 9 spell level casters. Given that it offers things Beguiler doesn't, has some advantages over Beguiler, and still ends up being a decent class, its definitely no expert to beguiler's factotum. Even if its less powerful (and I really don't want to get into the nitty gritty of how much it is or is not as it doesn't necessarily affect my point), its more like the favored soul to its sorcerer. The wilder to the psion? Idea is, its still a class you can very reasonably play and even potentially smash a game up with, regardless of whether it exactly matches Beguiler in power.

Brova

2015-05-31, 12:38 PM

This sounds like you're agreeing with me that using alter self in the way I described is reasonable and possible within a game, while Rainbow Servant pretty much never happens?

What? I mean yes, alter self is much more likely to come up in a game (because it is lower level), but it is more complex and less likely to be allowed because nobody wants to deal with you dumpster diving the entire monster manual every time you cast a spell.

My objection was that you said the bard spellcasting sucks, and that you discounted that it can in fact get the kind of power spells you describe (Suggestion, Glitterdust, Dominate Person, Irresistable Dance), and that you apparently did not consider its ability to choose from a wider list of spells.

Bard spellcasting does suck. The most spells of any given level a Bard gets per day is four. The least a Beguiler gets is three. Obviously there will be situations where the Bard occasionally getting spells early is better (notably: charm monster), but the vast majority of the time he's just not far enough ahead. Of course, there is Versatile Spellcaster right there if you really want to, though I generally wouldn't.

Story

2015-05-31, 12:40 PM

Provisionally, sure. Those things are emblematic with a broader problem with the logic people are using though. The issue I have is the assumption that dumpster diving for spells (or in alter self's case, forms) is a fine and legitimate part of optimization, but that items and prestige classes are not.

The thing is that you aren't talking about items and prestige classes in general. You're talking about one specific prestige class that requires a strict interpretation of RAW to even work. A Sorcerer is powerful even without Incantrix or Io7FV or Dweomerkeeper or Anima Mage, and that's 3 more PRCs than you've ever mentioned.

If anything, you'd expect Sorcerer to benefit more from PRCing since it doesn't have any class features, unlike Beguiler.

Mato

2015-05-31, 12:41 PM

The Beguiler is already on the low end of acceptable spell progressions.That's two different points, you said his spell list sucks and it doesn't. This new point is about his spell progression.

A reminder that the bard's 6th level spells include 8th level Wizard spells, such as Mass Charm Monster and Irresistible Dance.And a superior version of mind blank. Imperial ecstasy doesn't remove already-in-place moral bonuses but renders everyone (not just you) immune to new mind affecting attacks, in addition you're immune to any pain-based spell and only take 1/2 damage. It is an awesome spell. :smallcool:

The bard answer to Rainbow Servant is Sublime Chord. Which is worse than text over table RS in the sense that Sorcerer is worse than Wizard. Compared with table over text RS, it would be a good debate in another thread.Maybe, but arcane is generally superior to divine and sublime has forgiveness. A bard can dip 3 levels into any class before entering and if you increase the sublime's spells known so it has 3rd level spells another prc, such as incantatrix, can be stacked on top of it. It also comes off a class that has a native metamagic cost reduction. So it's like a general question, would all cleric spells access be on par with bardic music, white raven tactics, persisted spells, and shadow miracles? And I'd think you would get a lot of strong opinions there.

AmberVael

2015-05-31, 12:48 PM

Bard spellcasting does suck. The most spells of any given level a Bard gets per day is four. The least a Beguiler gets is three. Obviously there will be situations where the Bard occasionally getting spells early is better (notably: charm monster), but the vast majority of the time he's just not far enough ahead. Of course, there is Versatile Spellcaster right there if you really want to, though I generally wouldn't.

Ah yes. The atrocious maximum of four spells per day. How on earth could a class with that limit ever be any good? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard)

Brova

2015-05-31, 01:01 PM

The thing is that you aren't talking about items and prestige classes in general. You're talking about one specific prestige class that requires a strict interpretation of RAW to even work. A Sorcerer is powerful even without Incantrix or Io7FV or Dweomerkeeper or Anima Mage, and that's 3 more PRCs than you've ever mentioned.

Yes, I have suggested taking the best prestige class as a Beguiler, rather than not doing that. Similarly, you have suggested taking the best spells as a Sorcerer, rather than not doing that. Those PrCs all benefit the Beguiler reasonably well, though Incantatrix and Io7FV require some work.

If anything, you'd expect Sorcerer to benefit more from PRCing since it doesn't have any class features, unlike Beguiler.

What class features is the Beguiler giving up on by bailing at 5th? Cloaked casting? Advanced learning is spell knowledge and PrCs advance it.

That's two different points, you said his spell list sucks and it doesn't. This new point is about his spell progression.

Part of what makes spells suck is progression. Spells have different values if you get them at different levels. For example, meteor swarm is worthless as a 9th level spell, but it would be the best 0th level spell in the game bar none. Similarly, with exceptions for charm monster and suggestion out of core, Bard options don't keep up.

Maybe, but arcane is generally superior to divine and sublime has forgiveness. A bard can dip 3 levels into any class before entering and if you increase the sublime's spells known so it has 3rd level spells another prc, such as incantatrix, can be stacked on top of it. It also comes off a class that has a native metamagic cost reduction. So it's like a general question, would all cleric spells access be on par with bardic music, white raven tactics, persisted spells, and shadow miracles? And I'd think you would get a lot of strong opinions there.

Not sure where the native metamagic cost reduction is coming from (some Bard variant, maybe?), and Shadow Miracle is an iffy proposition at best as your class list and the Sorcerer/Wizard list are not necessarily the same thing, especially for a Bard. But that's a pretty sweet set of powers. At the top end, it stacks up fairly well, depending on how the Beguiler finishes out his build. Of course, most play doesn't happen at the top end, and the Beguiler gets Domain shuffling starting at 7th level. Still, put up a build. How does it play at 1st level? What stuff comes online when? Which options are you picking when you do have to make a choice?

Ah yes. The atrocious maximum of four spells per day. How on earth could a class with that limit ever be any good? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard)

Because no Wizard would ever specialize. And Wizards, much like Bards, cast spells which are largely behind par for their level. Of course, the Wizard also starts with zero spells per day when he gets a new level of spells. In all ways, Wizard casting is just like Bard casting.

dextercorvia

2015-05-31, 01:16 PM

I am flaw neutral.

I do not consider greater draconic rite of passage as any more vanilla than any other advanced casting trick. We know we can both access level 4 spells at level 7. Loredrakes are also right out. If we want to compete at level 8, I'd rather compete at level 8 than at level 7 with Greater rite of passage and Heighten/Versatile.

I don't have dragon compendium, and I think dragon content is not allowed at many tables. I don't really know what I'm agreeing to. Can I see the thing in question?

I would be looking (most likely) at the Necromantic Bloodline, and maybe one other (depending on a DMs ruling on whether Mother Cyst grants spells known). Each bloodline feat gives 9 spells known, one at each level. In exchange, you give up the ability to cast a certain type of spell. In the case of Necromantic Bloodline, it grants 1st—Causefear, 2nd—Ghoul touch, and 3rd—Vampiric touch, and the subject loses the ability to cast Conjuration (healing spells) (Can't learn or cast, and they are removed from the class spell list of all classes that character has).

The exact spells aren't important, because I'll be using Apprentice Spellcaster for the ones I want, so I picked the bloodline entirely based on giving up as little as possible.

I agree about the Rite and Loredrake in terms of this discussion. Since we are talking about soloing half the challenge, I think 2 flaws would probably be appreciated by both characters.

We still need a DM. Any takers?

Troacctid

2015-05-31, 02:03 PM

nyjastul69

2015-05-31, 02:05 PM

Two things. First, the Bard is behind or tied at levels 1 - 6. It does pull ahead a little by at 7th (they do get charm person a level early), but from that point it is at or behind par for the rest of the game. Second, the Bard gets significantly less spells per day, and a vastly worse mechanic for learning spells.

Oberoni Fallacy. According to the rules charmed creatures are "treated as friendly". At best that means friendly overrides modifications and they jump to helpful when the spell (but not the diplomacy) wears off. Obviously your DM could change how that rule works, but at that point you can't have a meaningfully transferable discussion.

That's true. But it's not really enough. The only level where the Bard gets spells ahead of the Beguiler is 7th (it gets charm monster as a 3rd level spell). Everywhere else it's at or behind in terms of spell level, with far worse actual casting.

I don't see an Oberoni Fallacy. Charmed persons are treated as friendly. Period. Diplomacy has no ability to modify that state.

Brova

2015-05-31, 02:13 PM

Beguiler/Rainbow Servant is a T1 build. So is Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus, or Beguiler/Druid/Arcane Hierophant, or Beguiler/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge, and those builds drop fewer caster levels. It's not hard to raise a build to T1 by adding T1 full casting to it. It doesn't really prove anything about the base class.

Sure. But the Ultimate Magus build would be essentially just as good with Sorcerer. Similarly the Arcane Hierophant build. The Ur-Priest build would too. But the Rainbow Servant build wouldn't. Because they key to the power of Beguiler/Rainbow Servant is in the casting mechanics of the Beguiler. Of course it is also worth noting that people do in fact play builds rather than classes, and ranking the classes on the assumption that everyone plays "1 class, no PrCs, final destination" will not produce useful results.

I don't see an Oberoni Fallacy. Charmed persons are treated as friendly. Period. Diplomacy has no ability to modify that state.

Uh, what? I covered that. Both in my original response to you, and several pages earlier. There are two possible cases . One, the person is "treated as friendly" in the sense of being temporarily friendly, in which case diplomacy works as normal. Two, the person has an actual state of hostile (or whatever) but all actions are evaluated as friendly. In that case, you diplomacy them with the same DCs and results as a friendly person, which makes them helpful, which charm person treats as friendly until it wears off.

Nihilarian

2015-05-31, 02:19 PM

Story

2015-05-31, 02:22 PM

But all you're saying is that Beguiler has an advantage in one very specific build that requires complicated rules interpretation to work. That's like arguing Warforged is the best race because they can take the Troll Blooded feat and 3 levels in Warforged Juggernaut. Or for that matter, that Commoner is a good class because of that one dragon magazine joke flaw.

Grim Reader

2015-05-31, 02:23 PM

Brova

2015-05-31, 02:24 PM

Advanced Learning is not an inherent part of Beguiler casting. It's a separate ability that prcs don't advance. In fact, that's part of why Mindbender is such a popular dip. If you go Rainbow Servant, you will miss at least the latter 3 instances of Advanced Learning.

I see no particular reason to believe that is true. Take the Archmage prestige class for example. It has this to say on the subject of advancing spellcasting:

When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level.

That seems to fairly obviously give you advanced learning, as it gives you additional spells known.

But all you're saying is that Beguiler has an advantage in one very specific build that requires complicated rules interpretation to work. That's like arguing Warforged is the best race because they can take the Troll Blooded feat and 3 levels in Warforged Juggernaut. Or for that matter, that Commoner is a good class because of that one dragon magazine joke flaw.

I mean, I've been discussing Rainbow Servant particularly much because I think it's a good build. You could still go Beguiler/Binder/Anima Mage or Beguiler/dip Rainbow Servant/Dweomerkeeper or Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage or straight Beguiler with some random value dips. Those builds all work pretty damn well, although they aren't quite as strong a showing as the Rainbow Servant because there's less reason to be strictly a Beguiler.

That being said, whether there is one good Beguiler build or twenty shouldn't actually matter. After all, you only play one character in a given campaign so you don't actually care if there are no other builds or arbitrarily many other builds. There are two Druid builds (Druid 20 and Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10, possibly Arcane Hierophant), but Druid is still a great class. Conversely, you can play an insane number of different Fighters, but Fighter is still a terrible class. Or imagine there was a class that had as its only ability "Win D&D: You win D&D. Also, you can give yourself any ability in the game." That would be the best class, even if there was only one build.

Your power level is set by your best option, not your average one. Wizards aren't bad because they could have prepared only burning hands.

Absolutly. Monk/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist is T1.

Monk still sucks.

If you need to invest 10 levels of a PrC to expand a class spell list, thats not a vote of confidence in said list.

Again, different case. If you could not take those Monk levels and instead take a better class while still qualifying for Ur-Priest and Sacred Fist, you would do that. That's not the case for Beguiler. And again, ranking classes instead of builds produces stupid dysfunctions like that. A system where you evaluated builds on things like power spread over the game, sources required, build complexity, and play complexity would be better and could actually account for that.

nyjastul69

2015-05-31, 02:51 PM

Sure. But the Ultimate Magus build would be essentially just as good with Sorcerer. Similarly the Arcane Hierophant build. The Ur-Priest build would too. But the Rainbow Servant build wouldn't. Because they key to the power of Beguiler/Rainbow Servant is in the casting mechanics of the Beguiler. Of course it is also worth noting that people do in fact play builds rather than classes, and ranking the classes on the assumption that everyone plays "1 class, no PrCs, final destination" will not produce useful results.

Uh, what? I covered that. Both in my original response to you, and several pages earlier. There are two possible cases . One, the person is "treated as friendly" in the sense of being temporarily friendly, in which case diplomacy works as normal. Two, the person has an actual state of hostile (or whatever) but all actions are evaluated as friendly. In that case, you diplomacy them with the same DCs and results as a friendly person, which makes them helpful, which charm person treats as friendly until it wears off.

I read the previous posts. I disagree. Once under the effect of CP, diplomacy is useless. It simply cannot move their attitude. It could be used before, or after the spell, in its normal capacity, but not while the spell is in effect.

Grim Reader

2015-05-31, 02:59 PM

Again, different case. If you could not take those Monk levels and instead take a better class while still qualifying for Ur-Priest and Sacred Fist, you would do that. That's not the case for Beguiler. And again, ranking classes instead of builds produces stupid dysfunctions like that. A system where you evaluated builds on things like power spread over the game, sources required, build complexity, and play complexity would be better and could actually account for that.

No, its not a different case. You're arguing a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant build, its not different from a Monk/Ur-priest/Sacred fist because you can enter with a different class.

You are, as far as I can see, the only person in this thread who are trying to argue about builds rather than class. Everyone else, no matter their position, seem to feel that it is not relevant. If you think this is stupid, don't clutter up the thread with irrelevant points.

If you feel the need for "a system where you evaluated builds on things like power spread over the game, sources required, build complexity, and play complexity" why don't you make one, or start a thread for making such a system?

Troacctid

2015-05-31, 03:04 PM

Monk/Ur-Priest/Sacred Fist is an example of evaluating build rather than class. It's not dysfunctional at all. It's producing exactly the correct, expected result. And it's totally useful, just not for the same things as ranking classes in the abstract.

Story

2015-05-31, 03:05 PM

I mean, I've been discussing Rainbow Servant particularly much because I think it's a good build. You could still go Beguiler/Binder/Anima Mage or Beguiler/dip Rainbow Servant/Dweomerkeeper or Beguiler/Shadowcraft Mage or straight Beguiler with some random value dips. Those builds all work pretty damn well, although they aren't quite as strong a showing as the Rainbow Servant because there's less reason to be strictly a Beguiler.

Except that with Anima Mage, Sorcerer is actually better than Beguiler. Not only do you get the CHA synergy, but the fact that you're PRCing out past level 4 (or level 1 with cheese) means that the chasis makes much less of a difference. So all you're left with is spell lists and the Sorcerer list is better except at the earliest levels.

Mato

2015-05-31, 03:06 PM

Part of what makes spells suck is progression. Spells have different values if you get them at different levels. For example, meteor swarm is worthless as a 9th level spell, but it would be the best 0th level spell in the game bar none. Similarly, with exceptions for charm monster and suggestion out of core, Bard options don't keep up.Your point refutes it's self since the bard's 6th spells contains a few spells that other classes treat as 8th or even 9th level.

Bards can reduce metamagic costs by expending bardic musing uses using the metamagic song feat. Depending on allowing flaws, for extra music, this allows the bard to begin persisting buffs as early as the 6th level or sooner.

And how does a bard play at level 1? Like an offensive god that knows more than he should is the short answer. Buy a couple mules and dogs and inspire them to murder things for you. Little feat tight to juggle persistence and with dragonfire inspiration, but normal inspiration does pretty well once you have words of creation. Oh, you meant spells only didn't you? :smalltongue:

Well, at level 7 both the beguiler and bard have 3rd level spells, but the bard has a better spell list. So, yeah still better. The beguiler's raw spell access doesn't make anything up at that point.

Beguiler/Rainbow Servant is a T1 build. So is Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus, or Beguiler/Druid/Arcane Hierophant, or Beguiler/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge, and those builds drop fewer caster levels. It's not hard to raise a build to T1 by adding T1 full casting to it. It doesn't really prove anything about the base class.Speaking of, an officially suggested adaption of ultimate magus includes two spontaneous spellcasting classes.

Bard/crusader/sublime chord/ultimate magus sounds like a pretty awesome build.

Brova

2015-05-31, 03:10 PM

No, its not a different case. You're arguing a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant build, its not different from a Monk/Ur-priest/Sacred fist because you can enter with a different class.

What? I don't really understand your point. Play an Anything other than Beguiler, Dread Necromancer or Warmage/Rainbow Servant is massively worse than playing a Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage/Rainbow Servant. The first case is like waiting your whole career to be a worse Cleric or Favored Soul. The second is like being a Cleric who always knows exactly what spell to prepare and gets a bunch of Wizard spells which are hardcore (unless you were a Warmage in your previous life).

You are, as far as I can see, the only person in this thread who are trying to argue about builds rather than class. Everyone else, no matter their position, seem to feel that it is not relevant. If you think this is stupid, don't clutter up the thread with irrelevant points.

The thread is about the power of the Beguiler as compared to the power of the Sorcerer. Part of the power of the Beguiler is better synergy with Rainbow Servant. The fact that other people seem to disagree does not actually make that statement false.

If you feel the need for "a system where you evaluated builds on things like power spread over the game, sources required, build complexity, and play complexity" why don't you make one, or start a thread for making such a system?

For the same reason I don't make a fantasy heartbreaker. It's too much work for too little reward. Everyone has (for reasons unclear to me) accepted JaronK's tiers, meaning that I would have to have this debate regardless of whether I sunk the cost of actually making the damn thing. So I'd rather just have this debate and then actually make something better when (if) I convince people there's a problem.

Komatik

2015-05-31, 03:17 PM

Well, at level 7 both the beguiler and bard have 3rd level spells, but the bard has a better spell list. So, yeah still better. The beguiler's raw spell access doesn't make anything up at that point.

Uh. The Bard knows 2 spells. How big the list is doesn't really matter unless the list has options considerably better than the ones a Beguiler gets. That's why people argue Level 4 for Sorcs taking off - Polymorph is really really really good, and you can actually make the case for it being better than what Beguilers get at that level, barring Shadow Conjuration from delayed Advanced Learning.

What does Bard get for 3rd level spells that tops: dispel magic, displacement, glibness, haste, hold person, invisibility sphere, major image, slow, suggestion, zone of silence?

Troacctid

2015-05-31, 03:18 PM

I think better synergy with Beguiler is part of the power of Rainbow Servant. Not vice versa.

Komatik

2015-05-31, 03:24 PM

I think better synergy with Beguiler is part of the power of Rainbow Servant. Not vice versa.

I'd lean for equal parts both, I mean Rainbow Servant isn't really impressive for basically anyone else, but with a correct class it becomes ridiculous. Kind of like if you take Natural Spell for a Wildshape Monk or Ranger - it's unimpressive. Druid, and hell breaks loose. You need two parts to a combo, and Theme Sorc / Rainbow Servant is pretty much a textbook example: Two things that might be good otherwise get completely out of hand together.

Brova

2015-05-31, 03:26 PM

Your point refutes it's self since the bard's 6th spells contains a few spells that other classes treat as 8th or even 9th level.

You mean mass charm monster and irresistible dance? Sure nice spells. But remember, you get one of those a day. And you still fall behind at 18th when the Beguiler gets actual 9ths.

Bards can reduce metamagic costs by expending bardic musing uses using the metamagic song feat. Depending on allowing flaws, for extra music, this allows the bard to begin persisting buffs as early as the 6th level or sooner.

So what are you Persisting? You gotta figure out the actual options you're taking before you're in a position to make an argument.

And how does a bard play at level 1? Like an offensive god that knows more than he should is the short answer. Buy a couple mules and dogs and inspire them to murder things for you. Little feat tight to juggle persistence and with dragonfire inspiration, but normal inspiration does pretty well once you have words of creation. Oh, you meant spells only didn't you? :smalltongue:

Cool. The Beguiler can do that too, except your 1/day bardic music. Oh, and he gets color spray. Remind me why I care about a +1 bonus for one fight?

Well, at level 7 both the beguiler and bard have 3rd level spells, but the bard has a better spell list. So, yeah still better. The beguiler's raw spell access doesn't make anything up at that point.

At 7th level the Beguiler has access to any spell that was ever a 3rd level option for a domain. And the Beguiler list. And an advanced learning 3rd level spell. The Bard has ... two 3rd level spells. But yah, work that charm monster by all means. Use it fully the one time a day you can cast it (though charm monster 1/day is a pretty good deal in all seriousness).

Seriously people, put your money where your mouth is. Post a build, Core + Completes + One Book or Core + Four Books, make some actual choices.

Troacctid

2015-05-31, 03:46 PM

I'd lean for equal parts both, I mean Rainbow Servant isn't really impressive for basically anyone else, but with a correct class it becomes ridiculous. Kind of like if you take Natural Spell for a Wildshape Monk or Ranger - it's unimpressive. Druid, and hell breaks loose. You need two parts to a combo, and Theme Sorc / Rainbow Servant is pretty much a textbook example: Two things that might be good otherwise get completely out of hand together.

Honestly though, I don't think Rainbow Servant is even that much better than Mystic Theurge, even on a Beguiler. I don't think it's better than just being a Cloistered Cleric from the get-go, either. The fact that you lose four caster levels and completely nerf your skills (for a class that's supposed to be a skillmonkey!) and don't get any real benefit for it until level 16 is a very real tradeoff. Compare with Mystic Theurge, which gives you access to the Cleric list (or better, if you go Archivist) from the start, and only drops one caster level, or two caster levels if you dip a good Fort save class for Ur-Priest. You can't spontaneously cast every Cleric spell, but do you really need to? The game is already over by that point--I'd rather come online sooner.

Brova

2015-05-31, 04:11 PM

Honestly though, I don't think Rainbow Servant is even that much better than Mystic Theurge, even on a Beguiler. I don't think it's better than just being a Cloistered Cleric from the get-go, either. The fact that you lose four caster levels and completely nerf your skills (for a class that's supposed to be a skillmonkey!) and don't get any real benefit for it until level 16 is a very real tradeoff.

You don't lose four caster levels, you lose zero caster levels because text trumps table. You don't really nerf your skills that badly. Rainbow Servant is 2 + Int and your Int is probably 20 or 22 by this point. You get to keep advancing 6 skills, which is enough to cover Concentration, Spellcraft, Search, Disable Device, Abuse Magic Device, and Diplomacy. That covers what you need to be a caster, what you need to be a skill monkey, and the skills that are just straight up nuts.

Compare with Mystic Theurge, which gives you access to the Cleric list (or better, if you go Archivist) from the start, and only drops one caster level, or two caster levels if you dip a good Fort save class for Ur-Priest. You can't spontaneously cast every Cleric spell, but do you really need to? The game is already over by that point--I'd rather come online sooner.

Uh, Theurge drops you three caster levels (barring early entry cheese) and drops your divine casting four caster levels (assuming you're still a Beguiler). That's really bad. You're bringing less divine casting to the table than you would by taking Leadership. Hell, you're only breaking even with taking Leadership, having your cohort take Leadership, and then getting divine casting from that guy. Yes, you do get generalized Cleric spells earlier, but substitute domain and/or Abuse Magic Device fill most of those holes for the Rainbow Servant.

Lans

2015-05-31, 04:22 PM

Uh, what? I covered that. Both in my original response to you, and several pages earlier. There are two possible cases . One, the person is "treated as friendly" in the sense of being temporarily friendly, in which case diplomacy works as normal. Two, the person has an actual state of hostile (or whatever) but all actions are evaluated as friendly. In that case, you diplomacy them with the same DCs and results as a friendly person, which makes them helpful, which charm person treats as friendly've until it wears off.

What about the one where the charm person wears off, or is suppressed and they go to hostile over being mind screwed?

So why exactly is a class who's list is full of save or dies tier 3? Look at some of the other stuff in tier 3 for a second: Bard, Factotum, and Binder. None of those guys get spells that end people, especially not at level one. The definition of tier two is that the class has some broken tricks. Setting aside the degree to which the tier system is terrible and incoherent, the Beguiler certainly has the broken tricks of charm person, diplomacy, and abuse magic device.

I'm not seeing save or dies as broken, especially when they have limitations. Power word pain at 1st level is just die, launch bolt can deal 4d6 at 1st an infringes on other characters roles. Rope trick can change they way the DM has to run the campaign.

Again, color spray, sleep, charm person and hypnotism.

I would argue that those aren't broken at level 1, just powerful

Did you even read the spell? It turns people friendly, a DC 20 diplomacy check turns them helpful, and then they will "protect", "aid", or "back up" you.

This gets back to whether you can use diplomacy to stack with Charm Person, and whether a person will stay friendly when they figure out you charmed them.

It's the standard for Beguilers in the way that alter self dumpster diving is for Sorcerers. In an actual game, you can just play a Beguiler and perform to the level of any other class in the game. But that's not what people are assuming for Sorcerers, so it's not what I'm assuming for Beguiler. It is incredibly dishonest to argue that we should evaluate Sorcerer cheese, but not Beguiler cheese.
I have played a campaign that let me use alter self to become an animated object of a coffin with legs to protect an NPC. That same DM would not of allowed full progression for rainbow servant, and would make me find the hidden temple before I could enter the prestige class.

One advantage for Sorcerer cheese/brokeness is that its wide. Beguilar has rainbow savant getting him the cleric spell list and diplomancy abuse. Sorceror has a ton of stuff whether its binding a plantar to be a cleric for you, undead minions, fabricate, wall of salt and other stuff.

Mato

2015-05-31, 04:24 PM

You mean mass charm monster and irresistible dance? Sure nice spells. But remember, you get one of those a day.Some times it's little hard to keep up with your presumptions. Like jumping from level 7 to talking about level 18, but referencing a bard's 16th level spellcasting then back to a +1 inspire courage bonus (so level 1 and no feats/spells?).

But judging from the rest of your post, I feel I can expect to see a build out of you very soon.

I think better synergy with Beguiler is part of the power of Rainbow Servant. Not vice versa.
I'd lean for equal parts both, I mean Rainbow Servant isn't really impressive for basically anyone else.There is the warmage which is a slightly wider typed spell list and he can learn any sor/wiz spell at the cost of an increased level using an advanced learning substitute. And there is also the self healing tankbot with its own personal army called the dread necromancer.

They both can make full usage of the rainbow servant class. The dread can to much greater effect since many of those spells are based on interacting with undead or alter how your turn undead will work.

Troacctid

2015-05-31, 04:28 PM

You don't lose four caster levels, you lose zero caster levels because text trumps table. You don't really nerf your skills that badly. Rainbow Servant is 2 + Int and your Int is probably 20 or 22 by this point. You get to keep advancing 6 skills, which is enough to cover Concentration, Spellcraft, Search, Disable Device, Abuse Magic Device, and Diplomacy. That covers what you need to be a caster, what you need to be a skill monkey, and the skills that are just straight up nuts.

Uh, Theurge drops you three caster levels (barring early entry cheese) and drops your divine casting four caster levels (assuming you're still a Beguiler). That's really bad. You're bringing less divine casting to the table than you would by taking Leadership. Hell, you're only breaking even with taking Leadership, having your cohort take Leadership, and then getting divine casting from that guy. Yes, you do get generalized Cleric spells earlier, but substitute domain and/or Abuse Magic Device fill most of those holes for the Rainbow Servant.

The text-table discrepancy is a typographical error akin to Swordsages getting 6x skill points at 1st level or Wavekeepers getting 0/10 casting. If you're going to be endorsing the 10/10 casting version of Rainbow Servant and a permissive interpretation of Substitute Domain, you can hardly turn around and decry Mystic Theurge early entry as "cheese". Come on. Improved Krau isn't even mild cheddar.

Story

2015-05-31, 04:58 PM

The thread is about the power of the Beguiler as compared to the power of the Sorcerer. Part of the power of the Beguiler is better synergy with Rainbow Servant. The fact that other people seem to disagree does not actually make that statement false.

And part of the power of Commoner is that they're really good at creating chickens, which synergizes with a whole bunch of things. Can we please stop arguing class power on the basis of a single specific TO trick?

Brova

2015-05-31, 05:05 PM

What about the one where the charm person wears off, or is suppressed and they go to hostile over being mind screwed?

Well, for starters there are zero rules for that. Obviously, your DM could rule that charm does not work the way it is described as working, but he could also rule that power word pain is banned or whatever. Beyond that, from the perspective of an average goon, he just suddenly decided you were okay and then you convinced him to join you on your heroic quest.

Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing that diplomacy is broken. But the solution is to admit that and fix it, not try to pretend kludges exist.

I'm not seeing save or dies as broken, especially when they have limitations.

There are three kinds of broken things. There are things which don't work (there's a thread somewhere called "Known Dysfunctions", that kind of thing), things which are very powerful (save or dies certainly qualify), and things which destroy the game (wish is my personal favorite, but shapechange, shadows, or that thing with CL 18 blasphemy at CR 6).

Power word pain at 1st level is just die, launch bolt can deal 4d6 at 1st an infringes on other characters roles. Rope trick can change they way the DM has to run the campaign.

power word pain kills a dude. It's very good because there's no defense against it, but all it actually does is kill a dude. It doesn't even necessarily stop him from attacking you. Don't get me wrong, it's a very good spell, but it's running up against sleep which kills four dudes.

Again, launch bolt is just an attack. It allows you to bat above your weight class, but it doesn't actually kill a dude any deader than a Fighter's Power Attack or a Rogue's Sneak Attack. launch bolt does maintain its usefulness for longer than most low level attack spells, but it's actually worse than charm person which turns a guy instead of just red misting him.

rope trick allows you to rest safely. It's useful if you expect to not rest safely. In other words, if you expect your DM to screw you by attacking in the middle of the night, pick rope trick. Of course, this thread is about Beguiler versus Sorcerer, not Beguiler versus Wizard. Utility spells are a terrible deal for the Sorcerer because he has to give up level appropriate attack options (like glitterdust or alter self) to use them. And rope trick is especially bad because he has to use two castings to actually rest with it.

I would argue that those aren't broken at level 1, just powerful

Well, they're certainly not game destroying, but they're very, very good. charm person might actually be game destroying at level one if you push it (Half-Elf, Skill Focus, and 12 Cha hits the magic +10).

I have played a campaign that let me use alter self to become an animated object of a coffin with legs to protect an NPC. That same DM would not of allowed full progression for rainbow servant, and would make me find the hidden temple before I could enter the prestige class.

So your DM allowed you to break the actual rules of the game, but would not have allowed you to do something that followed the rules of the game? That seems unreasonable to me. And of course, going to find the hidden temples is not a cost. You go on an adventure in the jungle, and at the end you get a reward. Exactly like you would normally be doing.

One advantage for Sorcerer cheese/brokeness is that its wide. Beguilar has rainbow savant getting him the cleric spell list and diplomancy abuse. Sorceror has a ton of stuff whether its binding a plantar to be a cleric for you, undead minions, fabricate, wall of salt and other stuff.

Several problems there. First, most logistics spells are trap options for Sorcerers. When your "win combat" powers come out of the same pool as your downtime powers, you can't prioritize downtime. A Sorcerer is never taking animate dead as his first forth level spell, and if he takes it as his second it looks him into one combat option at that level. Kinda like a Beguiler now that I think about it. Second, any given Sorcerer will not have access to all of those. He will have access to some finite set of them. Third, if your DM nerfs diplomacy minions for being broken, he'd probably nerf planar binding minions for being broken. Fourth, the simple investment of a feat or some gold allows a Beguiler to match those tricks.

Some times it's little hard to keep up with your presumptions. Like jumping from level 7 to talking about level 18, but referencing a bard's 16th level spellcasting then back to a +1 inspire courage bonus (so level 1 and no feats/spells?).

Uh, I'm talking about specific things at specific levels. So when I'm talking about how sweet charm monster is, that's in the context of 7th level where the Bard gets it but the Beguiler doesn't.

But judging from the rest of your post, I feel I can expect to see a build out of you very soon.

I've posted two already (albeit in the form of a walkthrough of what play looks like from 1st to 16th rather than a set of stats). One for a generic Beguiler, one for a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant. In case I wasn't clear, that's what I mean. Both what the character looks like at 20th level and what the progression looks like over the course of the game. With specific spell or feat choices nailed down for classes that actually have to make them.

The text-table discrepancy is a typographical error akin to Swordsages getting 6x skill points at 1st level or Wavekeepers getting 0/10 casting. If you're going to be endorsing the 10/10 casting version of Rainbow Servant and a permissive interpretation of Substitute Domain, you can hardly turn around and decry Mystic Theurge early entry as "cheese". Come on. Improved Krau isn't even mild cheddar.

Sure, but it is correspondingly ridiculous to claim that early entry (especially double early entry) with the interpretation that "treated as higher level" includes PrC requirements. Frankly, that kind of stuff edges into territory where the Beguiler could just be taking Versatile Spellcaster for fun and profit. And the interpretation on substitute domain isn't particularly permissive, after all I'm doing exactly what the spell says, it's just that the person writing substitute domain never read Complete Divine (or the core rules for that matter, regarding Clerics of concepts).