Patron Vestige

[Bad Wolf]

What would you say are the top 3 choices of a patron vestige for your generic Binder 6/KotSS 5/Binder 9?

[Aegis013]

It really depends on the desired play style to an enormous degree, since a generic Binder 6/KotSS 5/Binder 9 could be any of a bunch of archetypes, varying wildly from one to another, but my top three would probably be:

1. Tenebrous
2. Focalor
3. Andras (going for a charger archetype only)
Special mention to Karsus for a Binder who wants to pretend to a be a wizard.

[Chronos]

Does "generic" mean with no particular feats? Because Tenebrous is great if you have a divine feat or three to use those Turn Undeads on, but considerably less useful (though still nice) without.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Specifically, I'd look for vestiges that you never want to unbind-- things that are fundamental to your build, things that you've invested outside resources in. Tenebrous, as has already mentioned, is a great choice, because it's easy to use him to power a handful of divine feats (Tenebrous+Healing Devotion gives you infinite out-of-battle healing, for instance. Or Travel Devotion, or Divine Vigor, or...). Zceryll (possibly with a couple summon-boosting feats) would also be a great choice for a high-level game/if you were allowed to retrain. Astaroth for a crafter. Andras for a cavalier. Paimon, maybe, if you're doing some kind of skirmisher thing? Andromalius if you want to focus on sneak attacks as your offensive choice?

[Bad Wolf]

By generic, I meant he just has Improved Binding at the moment. I was sorta thinking Otiax, but I'm not sure if delaying entry to the Prc is worth his abilities.


You know, this might be a good place to bring it up: Astaroth (Unjustly Fallen) isn't that good of a vestige. All the pact magic items require spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You know, this might be a good place to bring it up: Astaroth (Unjustly Fallen) isn't that good of a vestige. All the pact magic items require spells.
Easily fixed with a one-level dip in Artificer, or friendly party casters-- the sweet thing is that no-one has to take downtime-only crafting feats.

[Chronos]

Astaroth is really best on an anima mage, though, not a KotSS.

[Bad Wolf]

So, what are everyone's opinions on Otiax then?

[Aegis013]

So, what are everyone's opinions on Otiax then?

Like some of the other vestiges mentioned (though probably still worth mentioning), not a valid option for the build proposed. Binder 6/KotSS 1 with the assumed Improved Binding feat can still only bind a 4th level or lower. Gotta go Binder 7/KotSS 1 for Otiax or other 5th level vestiges.

As far as whether Otiax is worthwhile, I'd say no, most likely he's not a worthwhile option. The exception would be if you're in a party with, or you are gestalt and you've got a sweet optimized DFI Bard thing going on. The air blasts would be easy carries for the DFI damage, making them good, but otherwise, Otiax's abilities are relatively lackluster.

You get a relatively weak attack (average 7 damage per attack) at level 8. You could do that much on a successful save with Amon's firebreath, or double on a failed save, so that's pretty weak.

You get Combat Reflexes, which is a pretty great feat. Nothing wrong with that as long as you didn't tank Dex (which if you didn't, Paimon is probably a better pick).

You get some limited concealment that you can, presumably keep on all day. That's really quite nice. It would be amazing if it allowed you to use Hide checks, but sadly it doesn't.

You get a Quickened 0th level spell, which is frankly mediocre to begin with, but you get only half of the usability.

You get a rather awfully limited way through locks, at a level where locks are reasonably likely to have become irrelevant due to other resources anyway. The spell Knock came around 3 levels ago for the Wizard, 2 for the Sorcerer, and even longer ago for you if you just grab a wand and bind Karsus. Alternatively, an adamantine dagger will cut your way through most doors with relative ease. Or, if you've got a Martial Adept in party, Mountain Hammer does the same.

I'd say overall, Otiax is a very weak vestige, but frankly, I haven't ever gotten very far in a game as a Binder, so my experience is limited and your experience may be otherwise. 20% concealment at all times is pretty sweet, after all. I just think with level 5's on the table, Balam's reroll once per 5 rounds outclasses everything Otiax offers by itself.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'll have to agree with Aegis. Otiax is a really cool vestige but not an especially powerful one.

As has been said, patron vestige is one that you'll want to always have on you. Here's a doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18l3Qkm4H7uDgFDnb_WckULMoYS9y-mkF5aD4e4_zGnU/edit?usp=sharing) I compiled of all the vestiges I could find (from ToM and from the web enhancements), along with quick summaries of their powers.

Personal recommendations (sorted by level):
Paimon
Tenebrous
Astaroth (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a)
Dantalion
Geryon
Chupoclops
Haures
Ipos
Zagan
Zceryll (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)
Eligor

[The Viscount]

I think there's something to be said for Balam's reroll ability, though her other granted features are nice too.

I'll second the mention of Chupoclops if you're planning to really melee it up.

[Bad Wolf]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've narrowed it down to Tenebrous or Paimon. Charge up a weapon with touch of the void, use dance of death to attack everyone along the way (use tumble to avoid opportunity attacks), then if I pick paimon as patron, use dance of death again, hitting everyone with extra cold damage. But I'm sure there's benefits for picking ol' Tenny as my patron.

[Psyren]

- Otiax's blast is good on a sneak attacker, whether you multiclass or simply bind vestiges like Andromalius + Malphas. Remember also that you can full-attack and AoO with it, and that it has reach. Also, you can add in Geryon's ability to see through magical darkness to render most foes flat-footed.

- You can craft with Astaroth by also binding Karsus and getting a wand or stave to pull the spells out of.

- My personal choice of patron would be Savnok - combined with Malphas' Raven effectively gives me pounce thanks to swift-action teleportation to switch places with it. It also fits with KotSS making me a martial character.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If your DM's crazy enough to allow Zceryll, that's the best choice, though you need a few more Binder levels before entering KoSS.

I mean...I'm thinking of allowing her in my game instead of an outright ban but making her cost TWO vestige slots *and* limiting her summoning to a daily limit and it still seems crazy broken.

[Aegis013]

Zceryll is definitely the most powerful vestige. By far better than any of the 8th level vestiges.

Honestly though, I always interpreted the summon monster ability to have a duration as if you were a sorcerer of your level casting summon monster, meaning there is a limit on the horde of summons, and keeping it up all the time means spending 6 seconds out of every 30 seconds using that ability. Or roughly 20% of all the character's time throughout the day.

It seems very strong but not unreasonably so if used only in combat or when combat is expected (when the spellcasters would be casting buffs or summon spells as well).

Otherwise, the most powerful ability she has is Mindsight, which is definitely incredible, but most of the time, probably not game breaking beyond pretty low-op.

Still, it'd probably make more sense if she was an 8th level vestige considering how powerful she is.

[Extra Anchovies]

Zceryll is definitely the most powerful vestige. By far better than any of the 8th level vestiges.

Honestly though, I always interpreted the summon monster ability to have a duration as if you were a sorcerer of your level casting summon monster, meaning there is a limit on the horde of summons, and keeping it up all the time means spending 6 seconds out of every 30 seconds using that ability. Or roughly 20% of all the character's time throughout the day.

It seems very strong but not unreasonably so if used only in combat or when combat is expected (when the spellcasters would be casting buffs or summon spells as well).

Otherwise, the most powerful ability she has is Mindsight, which is definitely incredible, but most of the time, probably not game breaking beyond pretty low-op.

Still, it'd probably make more sense if she was an 8th level vestige considering how powerful she is.

The thing with Zceryll's summon is that although it summons creatures, and it summons creatures from the Summon Monster lists, it doesn't summon monsters as the spell Summon Monster, nor does it every say that it exactly replicates the effects of that spell. There are multiple summoning effects, with no explicitly shared qualities (summoned creatures themselves do have shared qualities, e.g. their interaction with Protection from X, but I'm talking about the effects that summon them, not the summoned creatures themselves). So they're summoned (as opposed to called), but with no set duration or range.

So by RAW the duration is unstated and thus indefinite.

Also, even if Zceryll is a higher-utility option, I will always want to argue that Orthos is the best vestige available, because Orthos, Sovereign of the Howling Dark is just too much fun to say.

[Aegis013]

The thing with Zceryll's summon is that although it summons creatures, and it summons creatures from the Summon Monster lists, it doesn't summon monsters as the spell Summon Monster, nor does it every say that it exactly replicates the effects of that spell. There are multiple summoning effects, with no explicitly shared qualities (summoned creatures themselves do have shared qualities, e.g. their interaction with Protection from X, but I'm talking about the effects that summon them, not the summoned creatures themselves). So they're summoned (as opposed to called), but with no set duration or range.

So by RAW the duration is unstated and thus indefinite.

Also, even if Zceryll is a higher-utility option, I will always want to argue that Orthos is the best vestige available, because Orthos, Sovereign of the Howling Dark is just too much fun to say.

Well sure, the RAW is pretty clearly broken, and true intent of the author is unknowable, but I think it's a reasonable house rule (and honestly I inferred such the first time I read the ability until others pointed out how much was missing) to say that when binding Zceryll, the Summon Alien ability works as Summon Monster cast as if you were a sorcerer in every way.

Even in that scenario though, I think Zceryll is probably still powerful enough to merit being an 8th level vestige.

[Chronos]

Personally, the nerf I would apply to Zcerryl is that the summoning ability only summons those creatures from the Summon Monster list which would ordinarily have the fiendish or celestial templates. That still gives you a limitless supply of beatsticks, but it means you don't get all of the spells and spell-likes that summons can give you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Saying that Summon Alien works as summon monster (as opposed to an endless horde) and putting a cap on it (Cha/day) would balance things out just fine. You'd probably also be fine if it was "one at a time, stays out indefinitely but you have to wait an hour to summon a new one if it dies/is dismissed" like Agares Elemental Companion.

[Bad Wolf]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've narrowed it down to Tenebrous or Paimon. Charge up a weapon with touch of the void, use dance of death to attack everyone along the way (use tumble to avoid opportunity attacks), then if I pick paimon as patron, use dance of death again, hitting everyone with extra cold damage. But I'm sure there's benefits for picking ol' Tenny as my patron.

Thoughts everyone?

[Aegis013]

Thoughts everyone?

Both are very strong vestiges for their level. Paimon is simply great on a dexterity focused character, with +4 dex and bonus to tumble, weapon finesse with some decent weapon options.

Dance of Death is particularly good only if you can inflict some kind of debuff on hit (Death Devotion feat?), kill those enemies in a single hit, or something similar. Generally if you decide to inflict HP damage, and you don't reduce the target to 0 HP you haven't tactically altered the fight (might not be true if you trigger a caster's teleport contingency or something). Whirlwind Attack suffers a similar problem. If you can't do either of those, they're fine powers, but not great. 3/5 great, 2/5 not bad is a lot better than Otiax though. :smalltongue:


Tenebrous is pretty great, in my opinion, but requires you to be able to actually do something with his turn undead attempts to really shine.

He gives you a pretty nice area of 20% concealment for everything in the area, all day, and specifically doesn't affect you. This could be annoying to allies, with coordination this can be overcome (Ebon Eyes spell is first level and fixes it), but it's pretty much always good for you.

Touch of the Void is decent. Particularly if you have nothing better to spend your swift action on. If Tenebrous is your patron vestige, you'll probably be looking at better options for swifts and this ability won't get used as much as one might first think. It's pretty nice at 11 once it affects all attacks, but still, swift actions are very valuable and will have useful effects competing for them.

Turn/Rebuke undead: Got a good devotion feat or other way to spend Turn Undead attempts? This is pure gold. Don't? This is trash. Fortunately, there's some incredible devotion feats. Travel Devotion, Law Devotion, Animal Devotion, Strength Devotion. Sun Devotion in an undead heavy campaign or Trickery Devotion if you have some way to do something interesting with it.

Vessel of Emptiness is downright awesome. The Flicker shadow mystery is a buff that lets you immediate action teleport for the duration. Even only once per day, it's still very strong.

This means that Tenebrous is probably giving you three separate options that will be at times vying for your Swift action. That's probably the biggest downside of his abilities, and that's not really much of a downside.

You really can't go wrong either way. Tenebrous will just want you to pick up a feat for the Turn Undead power, while Paimon will want you to have a decent Dex score, though she's still pretty good without high dex.

[Bad Wolf]

Hmm...guess I'll go with Tenebrous as my patron, maybe with Paimon, Zceryll, and some other one in my other slot. Thanks for the help. Any guide for the best rebuke undead feats? Everything beyond 6 (6 being death devotion) is an undecided feat slot.

[Chronos]

I'd recommend a healing one (either Healing Devotion or the Complete Divine version of Sacred Healing), plus probably Divine Vigor. But the value of either of those will depend on your DM and campaign.

[Aegis013]

Be sure to talk with your DM about Zceryll's Summon Alien ability. Picking up feats like Augment Summoning can really empower that.

If you discover a particular ability you really like to use that has a Save, consider Ability Focus (ability in question) to increase the DC by 2. Otherwise, you're just looking for feats based on what your attack mode is.

If you're still using Paimon's dance of death, you may want to consider Combat Expertise(junk prereq), Improved Trip, and Knockdown (from Deities and Demigods) - they're a potentially very potent combination. If you have Tenebrous and Paimon bound, and use a Turn/Rebuke Undead for Death Devotion, then into Paimon's dance of death, you could potentially hit every enemy on your path, if you deal 10 damage, get a free trip attempt, and if you succeed, get a free extra attack, forcing two saves against negative levels from Death Devotion on every opponent.

[Bad Wolf]

My build might end up a bit feat starved, but I think I can fit that trip combo in, thanks.

...okay, I just looked at the devotion feats. How does rebuking do anything to the feat?

[Chronos]

Turning or rebuking gives you extra daily uses of the feat.

[Bad Wolf]

Turning or rebuking gives you extra daily uses of the feat.

On a one-for-one basis?

[Extra Anchovies]

On a one-for-one basis?

The costs vary from feat to feat. Travel Devotion is 2 turn/rebuke attempts per extra use. Death Devotion costs three attempts.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if Tenebrous can power most divine feats. He can only turn/rebuke once per five rounds, and some DMs (me included) would interpret the devotion feats as requiring multiple simultaneous expenditures of uses of the ability. Tenebrous only ever has one use available at a time, so he might not be able to power the feats. Extra Turning may be worth investing in.

Also, if you want to go nuts with turn/rebuke: make sure you're getting turn undead (not rebuke undead) from Tenebrous, then dip a level of Cleric with the Rebuke Dragons ACF (Dragon Magic, IIRC), and maybe a level of Dread Necromancer for Rebuke Undead. You now have 6+2*Cha turn/rebuke attempts of various sorts, plus an extra 1 per 5 rounds from Tenebrous. Taking Extra Turning gives you 12 more, because it adds on to all of them.

[Bad Wolf]

Hmm. Well, its still good on a build without it. Though I might pick up travel devotion when I get the KotSS capstone.

[Aegis013]

The costs vary from feat to feat. Travel Devotion is 2 turn/rebuke attempts per extra use. Death Devotion costs three attempts.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if Tenebrous can power most divine feats. He can only turn/rebuke once per five rounds, and some DMs (me included) would interpret the devotion feats as requiring multiple simultaneous expenditures of uses of the ability. Tenebrous only ever has one use available at a time, so he might not be able to power the feats. Extra Turning may be worth investing in.

Good catch, I had forgotten that some of them cost more than 1 attempt.

If you decide to do the Cleric level with the ACFs and whatnot, be sure to discuss it with your DM to make sure he interprets the text of the Devotion feats favorably toward non-Undead turns/rebukes.

[Extra Anchovies]

Good catch, I had forgotten that some of them cost more than 1 attempt.

If you decide to do the Cleric level with the ACFs and whatnot, be sure to discuss it with your DM to make sure he interprets the text of the Devotion feats favorably toward non-Undead turns/rebukes.

No need for that, actually. Dragon Magic, p. 14:

An attempt to rebuke dragons counts as an attempt to turn or rebuke undead for the purpose of qualifying for or activating divine feats, or for using other abilities that require you to expend a use of your turn or rebuke ability.

[Aegis013]

No need for that, actually. Dragon Magic, p. 14:

Well, I wasn't aware of that text. Very nice. Thank you for enlightening me to its existence.

[Bad Wolf]

Don't think I'm going with any dips, but thanks. But does anyone know the best feats to fuel rebuke undead with?

[Extra Anchovies]

Don't think I'm going with any dips, but thanks. But does anyone know the best feats to fuel rebuke undead with?

You'll first want to check with your DM regarding whether Tenebrous can power divine feats, since he can't spend more than one use of turn/rebuke at a time.

[Bad Wolf]

Its still being decided about those that take more than one at a time, but I've got the green light to take those that use one at a time.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Its still being decided about those that take more than one at a time, but I've got the green light to take those that use one at a time.
Of those, your best bet is probably Healing Devotion: fast healing for yourself and a buddy all day long, and it activates automatically if you're knocked to 0. Destruction Devotion is a decent debuff against martial types. Of course, there are also divine feats. I kind of like Divine Vigor, which gives you +10ft speed and +2 HP/level-- and with Tenebrous, you can keep it up all day long. Divine Might is a nice one-round damage buff for a high Cha class like Binder, and Divine Shield is a good defense if you insist on a shield.

[Bad Wolf]

Of those, your best bet is probably Healing Devotion: fast healing for yourself and a buddy all day long, and it activates automatically if you're knocked to 0. Destruction Devotion is a decent debuff against martial types. Of course, there are also divine feats. I kind of like Divine Vigor, which gives you +10ft speed and +2 HP/level-- and with Tenebrous, you can keep it up all day long. Divine Might is a nice one-round damage buff for a high Cha class like Binder, and Divine Shield is a good defense if you insist on a shield.

Healing Devotion it is. I wouldn't want to have to bind Buer to heal myself. Well, thanks everyone for the help.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Healing Devotion it is. I wouldn't want to have to bind Buer to heal myself. Well, thanks everyone for the help.
Sounds good. Your party will love you and your new "infinite fast healing for everyone" powers.