[3.5] Making a Shadowcraft Mage

[D4rkh0rus]

After reading some guides and whatnot, I've more or less gotten the gist of how SCM works, a 5 lvl long PRC that lets you cast Conjuration (Summoning, creation) and Evocation spells, with extra damage.

What I am unsure, is as to what Base I should give it.

the 3 biggest ones I found were Wizard, Sorcerer and Beguiler. Due to not wanting to make a prepared caster, Wizard is out, so...

Sorcerer vs Beguiler as Shadowcraft mage entry.

Sorcerer has a bit more versatility in that you essentially get to choose all kinds of spells, but the Beguiler is Int focused and has 6+ Skill points, which merges with my concept of a highly skilled illusionist.

This mainly comes from wanting to have a few specific Transmutation spells, which the beguiler does not get. (Polymorph, shape stone, etc)

Any opinions?

[Jakabib]

depending on how many beguiler levels you decide to take, you can see if your DM would be willing to let you use the Eclectic learning alternative class feature for warmages from PHB2. In my experience, it isn't a very big step since the Warmage and the Beguiler are kinda like sister classes (one focused on evocation, the other on illusion and enchantment) and they both get the class feature Eclectic learning replaces (advanced learning). If this is allowed, you could pick up some of those Transmutation spells you were interested in as a Beguiler.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You'll want to get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) with whatever you choose, since you'll want Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, along with Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus: Illusion, and as a spontaneous caster you'll want Versatile Spellcaster.

With a Beguiler, if you get Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster you'll be able to take Dark Way (SC) at 3rd level from Advanced Learning, and Heighten it to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage. Get Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, and Spell Focus: Illusion by 6th level with two flaws, go Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5, the best thing to finish to 20th with would be Shadowcrafter from Underdark, and it wouldn't hurt to dip a level of Shadow Adept in PGtF.

Every shadow illusion you cast should be a Heightened Silent Image, and make sandals from stone slabs so you can always benefit from Earth Spell. You can even take Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus) for Silent Image to get +2 DC. Remember that all of those are still illusions, so Greater Spell Focus applies, and it may even be worth taking the Spellgifted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#spellgifted) trait for Illusion. Be sure to get Residual Magic in CM so every other Silent Image you cast is Heightened for free, and Rapid Metamagic in CM wouldn't be a bad choice.

Wizard is really a stronger choice, everything considered. The Gnome Wizard 1 substitution level that makes Silent Image a 0-level spell (gaining another +1 from Earth Spell). You have to be a specialist Illusionist to get Enhanced Shadow Reality from Dragon 325 (+20% more real). You can get the feat Signature Spell in PGtF to convert prepared spells into (Heightened) Silent Images, so you're almost just as spontaneous as the spontaneous class choices. You'll have just as many spells/day with Focused Specialist, and Chains of Disbelief (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) really helps with preventing every opponent from seeing through your regular illusions. The list goes on.... but Beguiler is extremely fun, just know what your options are.

[Janthkin]

Beguiler is indeed extremely fun as a class; the existing spell list has some great utility baked right in, and you get to know all the spells. It has it's weak points (particularly in terms of escape- and mobility-type spells that wizards & sorcerers take for granted), but so long as Anklets of Translocation are a thing in your campaign world, you can usually play around that.

Sorcerer (and particularly wizard) has a much higher power ceiling; whether that impacts your choice will depend on your campaign. You do need Heighten Spell, in order to have the widest range of access to Shadow Illusions, and you probably want Rapid Metamagic, as taking a full round to cast a Heightened illusion is probably not desirable. Earth spell/etc. are nice, if you have the feats available and the power level at your table warrants it. (I don't play at any high-op tables, and trying early access tricks around Heighten Spell, much less stone-soled sandals, just gets laughed at around here.)

[D4rkh0rus]

Well, I am already going for a Cabal (non gnome) Shadowcraft mage. so, most tricks are in, As long as I don't intentially break the campaign, all's fine...

In the end, I'll probably choose Beguiler, The flavor of the class and the huge amount of skill points make it interesting.
One thing does become a problem... Movement/Travel.

Is there any way to add the Key Travel spells (Dimension door, Teleport, Knight's Move, etc) And the Transmutation spells (Polymorph, Celerity, etc) to the Beguiler spell list without using 50 feats?

[DEMON]

Is there any way to add the Key Travel spells (Dimension door, Teleport, Knight's Move, etc) And the Transmutation spells (Polymorph, Celerity, etc) to the Beguiler spell list without using 50 feats?

UMDing a custom runestaff should do the trick.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well, I am already going for a Cabal (non gnome) Shadowcraft mage. so, most tricks are in, As long as I don't intentially break the campaign, all's fine...

In the end, I'll probably choose Beguiler, The flavor of the class and the huge amount of skill points make it interesting.
One thing does become a problem... Movement/Travel.

Is there any way to add the Key Travel spells (Dimension door, Teleport, Knight's Move, etc) And the Transmutation spells (Polymorph, Celerity, etc) to the Beguiler spell list without using 50 feats?

UMD with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) gets you access to any spell you want if you're good aligned.

Magical Training in PGtF gets you a spellbook which you can add more spells to per the Rules Compendium, and any spells you put in it are considered to be spells you know. That means you can cast them when you activate Versatile Spellcaster, and RAW you're not limited to any particular spell list for what spells you can learn and add to it.

[nedz]

Arcane Disciple (Travel domain) is the standard trick here. Or you could enter a PrC which gives you this domain — but that would be a bit late in your career.

[D4rkh0rus]

UMD with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) gets you access to any spell you want if you're good aligned.

Magical Training in PGtF gets you a spellbook which you can add more spells to per the Rules Compendium, and any spells you put in it are considered to be spells you know. That means you can cast them when you activate Versatile Spellcaster, and RAW you're not limited to any particular spell list for what spells you can learn and add to it.


Most DMs I go with uphold that I have to be a paragon of good to use BoED stuff.

The magical training thing does intrigue me... but I don't get it...
The feat says I get a spell book, couldn't I just grab any old spellbook and write on it? or does the fact that the feat makes a mention of a spellbook and wizard prep that makes the loophole in the rules?

So, if I am understanding this correctly, I could in essence take Magical training and be able to cast any lvl 1+ spell from the wizard list (provided I have it inscribed) By using up 2 slots 1 level lower? (Vers Spell).

that certainly sounds like what I'm looking for. And If I limit it to spells which provide Quality of life for the party, I'm sure the DM wouldn't mind.

[jiriku]

UMD with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) gets you access to any spell you want if you're good aligned.

Magical Training in PGtF gets you a spellbook which you can add more spells to per the Rules Compendium, and any spells you put in it are considered to be spells you know. That means you can cast them when you activate Versatile Spellcaster, and RAW you're not limited to any particular spell list for what spells you can learn and add to it.

While these are delightful (if dubious) rules exploits, I wouldn't recommend either as an actual strategy. They are more appropriate as intellectual exercises than for use in a real game.


Belt of the wide earth (MIC 204) allows you to spontaneously cast teleport 2/day. There are three or four minor magic items in MIC that grant you tactical teleportation as a swift, move, or standard action without expending any spell slots. I'd expect that this would take care of all your teleportation needs.
Charm person and charm monster are both excellent ways to access off-list spells. Control a spellcaster capable of casting those spells and have them cast on your behalf.

[D4rkh0rus]

While these are delightful (if dubious) rules exploits, I wouldn't recommend either as an actual strategy. They are more appropriate as intellectual exercises than for use in a real game.

But, does the Magical training exploit actually function? And does it need the feat?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Most DMs I go with uphold that I have to be a paragon of good to use BoED stuff.

The magical training thing does intrigue me... but I don't get it...
The feat says I get a spell book, couldn't I just grab any old spellbook and write on it? or does the fact that the feat makes a mention of a spellbook and wizard prep that makes the loophole in the rules?

Ancestral Relic is not an exalted feat, it just requires a good alignment. Its requirements are no more strict than taking Sacred Exorcist, and far less restrictive than being a Paladin or especially maintaining an exalted status.

You can only learn spells and write them into a spellbook if you have some game mechanic which enables you to do so. Magical Training gives you a spellbook into which you've already copied a few 0-level spells, and gives you a few spell slots in which to prepare those spells from your spellbook. The Rules Compendium says anyone who prepares and casts spells from a spellbook can learn more spells and add them to it, and goes on to repeat the rules in the PHB for how Wizards add spells to their spellbooks but in class-neutral terms. If you cannot prepare and cast spells from a spellbook, then you cannot learn spells and scribe them into your spellbook as spells known.

[jiriku]

But, does the Magical training exploit actually function? And does it need the feat?

The question doesn't have any better answer than "it does if the DM says it does." The line between interpretation, exploit, and houserule is sometimes grey and fuzzy, and this is one of those fuzzy things. But even if the exploit functions, is it appropriate? I know of several ways you could scribe any spell into your spellbook for zero gp cost and 10 minutes time per spell, even if you don't know the spell and don't have access to it. Given time, you could grant your sorcerer hundreds of spells known, and he could cast any of them spontaneously. I'm pretty sure that between Biff and myself, we could get you infinite spells per day as well. Is this a reasonable way to combine options? At most gaming tables, it would completely break party balance, bring the game to a screeching halt, and make you look like a munchkin at best and a jerk at worst. At some gaming tables, it would be totally fair play and everyone else in the party would already be doing similar tricks. Which kind of game does your group play?

[Darkweave31]

My favorite entry is Illumian (naenhoon) Cleric 1 (Trickery, Illusion)/Sorcerer OR wizard 2/SCM 3

I like to worship Aasterinian

With 2 flaws take the feats: Earth sense (F), Heighten Spell (F), Spell focus: illusion (1), Earth Spell (3), Arcane Disciple: Luck (6)

Naenhoon allows you to heighten your spells to qualify in a similar way to divine metamagic. Once you hit SCM 3 you can heighten silent image to level 9 (10 with earth spell) to make a genesis demiplane with enhanced magic heighten on illusion spells (so now whenever you're on your demiplane you can heighten your illusions for free.

[nedz]

So why not Illumian (krauXXXX) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Trickery, Illusion, Knowledge)/Beguiler 2/SCM 3 ?
For skillpoints and class features.
Taking the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat for early entry

[Keld Denar]

I prefer ScM on a prepared base. You gain back a TON of spontaneity through your ScM tricks, and you get access to everything earlier, plus get a bonus feat. Wiz5 is pretty good for qualifying for ScM at 6 with Heighten Spell + Earth Spell.

The issue with a spontaneous base is that most of your tricks involve heightened Silent Image to take advantage of the +CL bump. Any time you spontaneously heighten a spell, you increase the casting time to a full round action. That robs you of your move action, which can be quite useful at times. You can negate this with a feat, but not until 9th level (minimum) and you have WAY better tricks to use your feats on. This is another reason why I don't suggest Signature Spell for wizards. You have TONS of flexibility, the extra flexibility isn't worth the opportunity cost.

Plus, the Gnome Illusionist ACF gets you Silent Image as a 0th level spell, which nets you +1 CL with all of your ScM tricks due to how Earth Spell works. Then again, if you aren't a gnomie, that rules that out.

Check with your DM about the validity of combining Shadow Illusion with Arcane Disciple. Shadow Illusion allows you to spontaneously cast from the Wiz/Sorc list. AD allows you to cast spells off the domain's spell list. Those spells technically aren't Wiz/Sorc spells. You can cast them, but they aren't Wiz/Sorc spells.

[D4rkh0rus]

I prefer ScM on a prepared base. You gain back a TON of spontaneity through your ScM tricks, and you get access to everything earlier, plus get a bonus feat. Wiz5 is pretty good for qualifying for ScM at 6 with Heighten Spell + Earth Spell.

Yes, I agree. Although I ended up deciding to go for a more skilled character, so the skills and extra SP from beguiler benefit me more.

[Keld Denar]

Depending on your PrCing options, you only gain about 20 or so skill points. Assuming you qualify for ScM as soon as possible and then take another PrC for the remainder of your levels, you really do lose out on a lot of the fun you gain from Beguiler. As a wizard, you already have an Int focus. As a human, you could grab Able Learner and still have decent ranks in cross class skills that aren't on the wizard list like Diplomacy or UMD.

If you are going to go back into Beguiler and finish out as something like Beg15/ScM5 (not that order), then you'd actually get something from those levels.

[D4rkh0rus]

Depending on your PrCing options, you only gain about 20 or so skill points. Assuming you qualify for ScM as soon as possible and then take another PrC for the remainder of your levels, you really do lose out on a lot of the fun you gain from Beguiler. As a wizard, you already have an Int focus. As a human, you could grab Able Learner and still have decent ranks in cross class skills that aren't on the wizard list like Diplomacy or UMD.

If you are going to go back into Beguiler and finish out as something like Beg15/ScM5 (not that order), then you'd actually get something from those levels.

I was thinking for Beguiler 10+/SCM 5/ X5 probably dips like mindbender, shadow adept and shadowcrafter.

[Darkweave31]

So why not Illumian (krauXXXX) Cloistered Cleric 1 (Trickery, Illusion, Knowledge)/Beguiler 2/SCM 3 ?
For skillpoints and class features.
Taking the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat for early entry

I don't see how that build to qualifies for SCM. Cleric doesn't have any 1st level illusion (shadow) spells, nor do I know of any domains that grant them. Further, Beguiler doesn't get any illusion (shadow) spells until the 3rd level legion of sentinels. Even if there is a way to get a 1st level illusion (shadow) spell on that build, it would have to be divine, or have a way of being made divine, in order to use divine metamagic to heighten it to 4th level to qualify for SCM. Naenhoon gives you the pseudo-divine metamagic effect that can be used on arcane spells to heighten them.

Also since Improved Sigil (Krau) works as heighten spell, I interpret it as not being able to heighten a spell to 10th level, having the same 9th level restriction as heighten spell does.