How to get a Large Anti-magic field.

[Phaederkiel]

The AMF, as usefull as it is, is puny.

Does anyone know a way to have a really large AMF in some kind of item?

I am pretty sure I have seen encounters designed around AMFs of some 50ft diameter, possibly even in an official book. How where these made?
Is there a simple trap that removes the many difficulties of putting the AMF onto some item?

[Rubik]

AMF traps.

You can also have Sculpt Spell'd AMFs, which increases its area to fairly ridiculously large sizes.

[edit] A Widened Sculpted AMF can be an 80' cone of antimagic.

[Jack_Simth]

The general method is DM Handwavium.

For a more RAW answer, see Rubik's comment.

There's also an option for it in the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

[Karl Aegis]

Is the anti-magic field even useful? I have yet to be in a situation where it has done anything of note.

[Venger]

Is the anti-magic field even useful? I have yet to be in a situation where it has done anything of note.

of course it is. just become immune through either spur lord or cheater of mystra and go nuts on your defenseless enemies.

[Rubik]

Is the anti-magic field even useful? I have yet to be in a situation where it has done anything of note.A Widened Sculpted AMF cast on your flying familiar can coat the battlefield while you stand back and cast Walls of Stone to keep your enemies away and then cast Instanty Blasty Spell Thingies to make them dead.

[Crake]

of course it is. just become immune through either spur lord or cheater of mystra and go nuts on your defenseless enemies.

Or just sculpt spell

[Venger]

Or just sculpt spell

yeah but that way it doesn't move with you

[Phaederkiel]

@ Rubik: do you know a raw source for such a trap? and: can it be made portable?

is stronghold builders guide official content? For my purpose the AMF can be quite cheesy, but I have to avoid handwavium.




Is the anti-magic field even useful? I have yet to be in a situation where it has done anything of note.

It is also a quintessential way for a melee guy to squash a caster. Imagine what happens when mr. d4 has to go fisticuffs against mr. d12.
Unfortunately, a normal amf can be avoided by a simple 5ft step. I would like to have mine big enough that a caster has to use 2 move actions to leave it.

The less specific the caster that made the AMF-item has to be build, the better.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It is also a quintessential way for a melee guy to squash a caster. Imagine what happens when mr. d4 has to go fisticuffs against mr. d12.
Unfortunately, a normal amf can be avoided by a simple 5ft step. I would like to have mine big enough that a caster has to use 2 move actions to leave it.

You seem to forget that the AMF will also affect your party if it's that big. Not only will it prevent your casters from casting, it will also disable any magical items your friends wear (and yours, unless you're immune to it).
Magic items are what lets normal humanoids keep up with the various monsters you face in D&D, so that's generally a bad idea.

Normal AMF is already a challenge to use properly on a narrow battlefield. One that covers a 40ft radius will most likely hurt you and your party more than your enemies in the majority of situations.
It also has a pretty decent chance to make the rest of the party hate your guts.:smalltongue:

[SalterisSolaris]

Or just sculpt spell
Only that sculpt spell alone won't get you anywhere, as it cannot change the range of a given spell.
So a sculpted AMF could have all sorts of crazy shapes within the (specified) 10ft, but would never reach farther away.

[Phaederkiel]

You seem to forget that the AMF will also affect your party if it's that big. Not only will it prevent your casters from casting, it will also disable any magical items your friends wear (and yours, unless you're immune to it).
Magic items are what lets normal humanoids keep up with the various monsters you face in D&D, so that's generally a bad idea.

Normal AMF is already a challenge to use properly on a narrow battlefield. One that covers a 40ft radius will most likely hurt you and your party more than your enemies in the majority of situations.

you are obviously right in many ways. except: It is quite easy to build a melee guy strong enough to handle most monsters without any magic Items, if you know that you cannot depend on such items. You obviously want a way to trigger the AMF, so that you do not have it online all the time.

But I think I will need it more for a duelling situation anyways. Or perhaps as a tool the bbeg uses.

[Jack_Simth]

is stronghold builders guide official content? For my purpose the AMF can be quite cheesy, but I have to avoid handwavium.1st party 3.0. Never updated, so by WotC guidelines on the subject, yes. Not portable, though. Page 83, 66k per stronghold space.

[shaikujin]

I managed to get 80 ft radius sphere so far. (and 120 ft line)


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19300170&postcount=431
Expand the spoiler "Items for Demiplane and Planar Bubble"


Sculpted (10' emanation -> 20' sphere), Widened (20' sphere -> 40' sphere), Recaster modified (40' sphere -> 80' sphere) Planar Bubble casted on it. Emanation is 80 ft radius sphere.


I'm trying to find a way to apply Widened after Recaster, so that it becomes 160 ft sphere and a 240 ft line. If anyone can think of an item, feat, class ability etc, I'd be really grateful if you can share.

[shaikujin]

Figured it out after re-reading Sculpt Spell. It doens't care what the original area is at all.


Sphere:
Sculpted (10' emanation -> 120' line),
Recaster modified (120' Line -> 80' sphere),
Widened (80' sphere -> 160' sphere).


Line:
Sculpted (10' emanation -> 120' line),
Widened (120 ' line -> 240' line).


Though if anyone finds anything else that can modify the area further, please let me know.

Thanks!

[SalterisSolaris]

Figured it out after re-reading Sculpt Spell. It doens't care what the original area is at all.
<snip>

Indeed. It does however care for the spell's original range - which it can not change.
So, no, that won't work. The line will end at 10ft, as that is the range of AMF.

Was already found and confirmed earlier here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?213142-Sculpt-Spell-and-Range-Limitations):


So I'm building a wizard and was looking at metamagic feats, when I noticed something about Sculpt Spell (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Sculpt_Spell) that I thought I'd share with you guys, because I don't think this is common knowledge: It doesn't change the spell's range at all. Why is this relevant? Because a spell's area is, somewhat oddly, limited by its range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):


SRD says:
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

(Emphasis mine) So, with spells that are centred on the caster like, oh I don't know, Antimagic Field, Sculpting it is probably not going to do what you thought it did. Sure, you can turn it into 10' cubes, but any part of it that goes out of the measly 10' range is wasted.

So yeah, I'm done. :smallredface:

[shaikujin]

Wow, that's something I didn't realize that before!

So being able to simultaneously Enlarge a spell becomes useful, mwuahahahaha.
Let me see how I can abuse this :D

[Necroticplague]

1st party 3.0. Never updated, so by WotC guidelines on the subject, yes. Not portable, though. Page 83, 66k per stronghold space.

Keep in mind, a stronghold space is a 20x20x10 foot rectangular prism for those who want size comparisons.

[Rubik]

@ Rubik: do you know a raw source for such a trap? and: can it be made portable?In 3.5, there are trap rules in both the DMG and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicTraps) and some in Dungeonscape. And in the former category, yes, they can be portable. Add your resetting traps to a pebble, shield, armor, weapon, tent, blanket or other item, at your leisure.

[edit] Also, the Range entry on Antimagic Field is a very stupid mistake, caused by the writers having no idea what "Range" means. Range is where the origin of the effect of the spell is centered, but that origin is centered on the caster. So unless the caster can somehow be 10' away from his own self, so that he can center it on himself while being up to 10' away, it's yet another example of stupid writers writing stupid things.

[shaikujin]

Does Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow (Sp) ability solve the range issue? (at least for other emanation spells that do not have the "centered on you" text like AMF)

"This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range."


If how big a spell's area effect can affect is strangely dependant on range, being able to change the range would conversely also affect the spell's area effect, I think?

[dextercorvia]

Does Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow (Sp) ability solve the range issue? (at least for other emanation spells that do not have the "centered on you" text like AMF)

"This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range."


If how big a spell's area effect can affect is strangely dependant on range, being able to change the range would conversely also affect the spell's area effect, I think?

Affecting the range does not adjust the area except in certain Effect: spells like Rays and Lines. The range is the maximum distance from the caster that the spell's effect extends.

[shaikujin]

Affecting the range does not adjust the area except in certain Effect: spells like Rays and Lines. The range is the maximum distance from the caster that the spell's effect extends.


Yeah, that's the weird thing. Seeing what you posted in the thread below, your insight is greatly valued :)


So I'm building a wizard and was looking at metamagic feats, when I noticed something about Sculpt Spell (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Sculpt_Spell) that I thought I'd share with you guys, because I don't think this is common knowledge: It doesn't change the spell's range at all. Why is this relevant? Because a spell's area is, somewhat oddly, limited by its range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):

(Emphasis mine) So, with spells that are centred on the caster like, oh I don't know, Antimagic Field, Sculpting it is probably not going to do what you thought it did. Sure, you can turn it into 10' cubes, but any part of it that goes out of the measly 10' range is wasted.

So yeah, I'm done. :smallredface:



What I hope to do is to make a Planar Bubble have as large an area effect as possible:

Sphere:
Sculpted (10' emanation -> 120' line),
Recaster modified (120' Line -> 80' sphere),
Widened (80' sphere -> 160' sphere).

Line:
Sculpted (10' emanation -> 120' line),
Widened (120 ' line -> 240' line).



Unfortunately, it looks like a spell's area is limited by it's Range for some reason.
Now, let's say we have a way to get free MM applied, including Occular spell to make it a Ray if needed, is it possible to replace/increase the range (on top of using Enlarge), to make that emanation as large as the 2 area effects above?

[Phaederkiel]

In 3.5, there are trap rules in both the DMG and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicTraps) and some in Dungeonscape. And in the former category, yes, they can be portable. Add your resetting traps to a pebble, shield, armor, weapon, tent, blanket or other item, at your leisure.

[edit] Also, the Range entry on Antimagic Field is a very stupid mistake, caused by the writers having no idea what "Range" means. Range is where the origin of the effect of the spell is centered, but that origin is centered on the caster. So unless the caster can somehow be 10' away from his own self, so that he can center it on himself while being up to 10' away, it's yet another example of stupid writers writing stupid things.


You are right, this is very stupid. Range should mean how far away the spell can be cast. Probably this was a hack for some stupid wording problem. À la "we have 7 words that can describe the size of a spells effect" "hey, if we used range for the size of emanations..." "what an elegant solution!"

Arcane archer should be able to circumvent the range restriction in regard of metamagic. If you have a 120ft range, you can sculpt and widen all you like.
There should be a less difficult trick using a way to make the AMF a ray. I think having a trap would be easier.

Is anyone knowledgable enough to calculate what a trap with a high range of AMF should cost, and what CL it would need?

[Saintheart]

You are right, this is very stupid. Range should mean how far away the spell can be cast. Probably this was a hack for some stupid wording problem. À la "we have 7 words that can describe the size of a spells effect" "hey, if we used range for the size of emanations..." "what an elegant solution!"

Arcane archer should be able to circumvent the range restriction in regard of metamagic. If you have a 120ft range, you can sculpt and widen all you like.
There should be a less difficult trick using a way to make the AMF a ray. I think having a trap would be easier.

Is anyone knowledgable enough to calculate what a trap with a high range of AMF should cost, and what CL it would need?

I know this is really, really late, and I'm not sure if it exactly fits the brief, but - a rune of Antimagic Field could do something like this.

Basically, a Runecaster (FRCS, PGtF) carries a Permanent rune of Antimagic Field with him. It is set to trigger when passed by anyone not the caster's allies. "Pass" trigger runes require line of effect to a target and function out to 30 feet away. Whoever triggers the rune becomes the target of the spell placed in it. Thus: when your enemy walks within 30 feet of you, they're instantly targeted by the Antimagic Field rune (placed on a grey ioun stone). They become the target of the AMF spell, and thus become the centre of a AMF field which, with a 10 foot radius, doesn't hit you as they're 30 feet away. The Runecaster backs up, about 30 feet or so, and when the enemy tries to close again, the AMF rune triggers again. And this works against any opponent who gets within 30 feet of the rune, continuously. It vaults over the range restriction of the spell itself because rune magic explicitly declares that, within 30 feet, whoever triggers the rune becomes the target of the spell placed in it.

The cost of such a rune to a Runecaster would be 6 [Magic] x 11 [Minimum CL] x 2,000 [Permanent rune] x 2 [Pass trigger] = 264,000 + 132 XP, thus 132,000 gp + 132 XP to a Runecaster creating it (cost reduction feats are not factored in.) It gets cheaper if you enter Runecaster from Ur-Priest since the minimum CL drops to 6 (Ur-Priests only having to be an Ur-Priest 6 to cast it). No onset delay, never miss.

An AMF field rune which you trigger centred on yourself whenever there's a problem would be literally half the price in each case, per Runecaster's rules, because it's only pass triggers that double the cost. When you trigger it, it's (conservatively) a standard action, requires no UMD, and you can do it as often as you want.

[dextercorvia]

AMF doesn't have a target line, and Rune Magic says nothing about what happens if it is an area spell in the rune. How are you getting this ruling that the AMF will target a creature?

[Saintheart]

AMF doesn't have a target line, and Rune Magic says nothing about what happens if it is an area spell in the rune. How are you getting this ruling that the AMF will target a creature?

Rune Magic itself tells us "whoever touches the rune triggers the rune and becomes the target of the spell placed in it." And Rune Magic indeed does not forbid an area spell being placed in the rune: the opening line of Inscribing a Rune, on the same page, tells us that "If you know Inscribe Rune, any divine spell you currently have prepared can instead be cast as a rune."

AMF might not have a target line, but it produces an emanation centred on the caster. The rune (when it's a read/pass trigger) gives it a specific target, i.e. the poor sucker who crosses the 30 foot line. I didn't write the RAW, and WOTC made AMF a divine spell. If you needed any further support, Complete Arcane tells us that runes were intended as (among other things) simple magic traps. I've no problem with the suggestion runes are broken. That's part of their charm.

[dextercorvia]

I realize that Runes have no restriction on area spells being place in them. I'm just wondering what it means to be the target of a targetless spell. Target has both a well defined and a poorly defined game meaning, but neither of those seem it apply here.

[Saintheart]

*shrug* For AMF field specifically I think it's a short but acceptable leap to say the AMF remains an area spell but it goes off on the caster's position since it otherwise produces an area effect centred on the caster.

On the other hand, for spells that produce things like cone or line effects I agree it's probably going to get a lot more wiggy trying to work out how the spell functions when triggered as a rune. Possibly one way to interpret it is to say it converts the spell from an area effect to a single target spell, i.e. the guy who triggers the rune. It's not a terribly well-written magical subsystem.