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Maglubiyet
2015-05-27, 12:49 PM
How much grittiness, for lack of a better word, do you introduce into your games? Maybe some people call it "narrative style" or even "fluff". What I'm talking about is the in-game descriptions of overcoming obstacles.

For example, when you have Protection from Fire and get hit by a Fireball, does your character laugh it off, completely unharmed, or does it, knock him back a step, scorch his robes, and burn off his eyebrows? Though the damage may have been averted, is it still a harrowing experience?

Or, consider a high-level D&D fighter. His ridiculously high hit points don't come from the fact that he's actually able to withstand a bazooka blast to his face. I think it's understood that it's due to his training, reflexes, and general ability to get out of the way of full attacks. So, when said fighter is up against a group of measly goblins, do you describe it as him "wading through the attacks" striking with impunity? Or is he dodging and weaving, using his opponents' bodies and weapons against themselves, and generally taking every advantage possible?

At the end of the fight is he bleeding from a couple of scratches and slightly winded or does he simply not even break a sweat and is still wearing a pristine white tunic?

Pluto!
2015-05-27, 12:55 PM
Under which option is he probably just dead?

Maglubiyet
2015-05-27, 01:03 PM
Under which option is he probably just dead?

That would be the GURPS version.

Yukitsu
2015-05-27, 01:17 PM
Given that a fighter can swim through a pool of magma for a turn or two in the system I use, I'm going on the edge that they just survive getting hit by more stuff. Less nonsense, they can also wander around, and sometimes are expected to wander around something like the plane of fire where they're being burned for 1 point every turn without dying for like, an hour or something ludicrous where anyone level 1 would die within a couple minutes.

In other words, bazooka blast to the face, doesn't immediately kill a character. In that case, since the AoE wouldn't have gone off hurting adjacent people unless it hit him, if he had dodged it it would not have detonated (as it was aimed at face level). I think that it should be that HP actually represents physical toughness.

When I do want a gritty series, I play something else, one where you can't get large HP pools and where getting hit by a rocket will do enough damage to kill you without any ability to survive otherwise. The ones where HP pools are large, that breaks down when people start doing things that are perfectly within the expectations of the system, like walking through burning buildings and being eaten alive.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-27, 01:52 PM
Given that a fighter can swim through a pool of magma for a turn or two in the system I use, I'm going on the edge that they just survive getting hit by more stuff. Less nonsense, they can also wander around, and sometimes are expected to wander around something like the plane of fire where they're being burned for 1 point every turn without dying for like, an hour or something ludicrous where anyone level 1 would die within a couple minutes.

In other words, bazooka blast to the face, doesn't immediately kill a character. In that case, since the AoE wouldn't have gone off hurting adjacent people unless it hit him, if he had dodged it it would not have detonated (as it was aimed at face level). I think that it should be that HP actually represents physical toughness.

When I do want a gritty series, I play something else, one where you can't get large HP pools and where getting hit by a rocket will do enough damage to kill you without any ability to survive otherwise. The ones where HP pools are large, that breaks down when people start doing things that are perfectly within the expectations of the system, like walking through burning buildings and being eaten alive.

Yeah, level systems don't make a whole lot of sense when talking about mortal creatures. Superheroes, demigods, undead -- yes. But the idea that a peasant girl could ever gain enough "experience" that she could survive someone dropping a grenade into a bathtub full of hydrochloric acid she happened to be sitting in is just silly.

Hawkstar
2015-05-27, 02:11 PM
Under which option is he probably just dead?
Any in a situation where he actually ran out of hitpoints in a fight.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-27, 02:33 PM
Maybe descriptions aren't most people's thing. Maybe people are content to say "he took 38 hp" and call it a day. True abstraction.


It doesn't really take a lot of work to raise the level of abstraction on all rolls to how Craft or Profession checks get treated. "I roll a 33 on my Adventuring check." "You defeat *rolls* 20 hobgoblins and earn *rolls* 700 gold in jewels and artworks."

Vitruviansquid
2015-05-27, 03:25 PM
I've never heard "grittiness" being defined as how much description you use, so I don't really know what you're asking here...

For how descriptive I get, I usually leave things at "you take 38 hp damage," except on special occasions, like crits. The fluffy descriptions are cool, but do kind of get tiresome on a lengthy campaign and can drag out your battles, so rationing them like this makes sense to me.

As for how gritty I make my games... it usually makes sense to take your cue from the system. There's nothing you can do to DnD 4e to make a gritty campaign in it make sense, whereas gritty tends to work best in Savage Worlds.

Darth Ultron
2015-05-27, 04:01 PM
How much grittiness, for lack of a better word, do you introduce into your games? Maybe some people call it "narrative style" or even "fluff". What I'm talking about is the in-game descriptions of overcoming obstacles.



Tons. My games over flow with gritty narrative fluff so much that it is basically a house rule. In my games, gritty narrative fluff goes above and beyond the couple rules in the book.

I don't really have 'hard' rules, i just make them up as needed. Most explosions will knock people around a couple feet and such things just about always cause characters to drop things: I often do a simple ''roll a negative number and drop your held item'' and then pick a die for how difficult it would be. I use the percentage chance for how hard somethings might be sometimes, like 50% or 20%, but often just have things happen.

Pluto!
2015-05-27, 08:15 PM
When I do want a gritty series, I play something else, one where you can't get large HP pools and where getting hit by a rocket will do enough damage to kill you without any ability to survive otherwise. The ones where HP pools are large, that breaks down when people start doing things that are perfectly within the expectations of the system, like walking through burning buildings and being eaten alive.
This is more what I was getting at. I do like what I would call gritty games, but that's the antithesis of level 20 D&D. It's more a term I use for something along the lines of 3:16, where everything dies and those few survivors eventually come to hate everything they held dear.

In terms of basic descriptions, I usually start strong and fade off. I'd like to make the narrative of combat inherently gripping, but after 4 players have taken turns rolling attack rolls for the third consecutive round, it's more a matter of just resolving the fight and getting on with things than trying to give dramatic descriptions.

Zalphon
2015-05-27, 08:16 PM
Spells like Deathward prevent one from dying to Death Effects.

That said, in my campaigns, being hit by a Wail of the Banshee or Finger of Death or whatnot would still leave you wishing you had died. No, you're not dead. But you feel like a part of yourself died with the spell.

Damage means physical damage. That still leaves pain. And pain isn't damage.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-27, 10:08 PM
I've never heard "grittiness" being defined as how much description you use, so I don't really know what you're asking here...

I mean, there's descriptive, like "*11* a miss -- the orc's sword bounces harmlessly off your armor". And then there's gritty, "the orc pins you against the wall with his shield, his foul breath in your face as he makes several savage attempts to drive his blade through your mail into your belly. Your armor holds, but it's like getting punched repeatedly in the stomach. You manage to kick him in the shin and shove him away, getting your sword up between you again."


There's nothing you can do to DnD 4e to make a gritty campaign in it make sense, whereas gritty tends to work best in Savage Worlds.

Savage Worlds adds another layer of description with drawing cards in the deck.


Tons. My games over flow with gritty narrative fluff so much that it is basically a house rule. In my games, gritty narrative fluff goes above and beyond the couple rules in the book.

You are awesome!


This is more what I was getting at. I do like what I would call gritty games, but that's the antithesis of level 20 D&D. It's more a term I use for something along the lines of 3:16, where everything dies and those few survivors eventually come to hate everything they held dear.

In terms of basic descriptions, I usually start strong and fade off. I'd like to make the narrative of combat inherently gripping, but after 4 players have taken turns rolling attack rolls for the third consecutive round, it's more a matter of just resolving the fight and getting on with things than trying to give dramatic descriptions.

I agree that high-level D&D is hard to visualize in any sort of "realistic" sense. Characters are basically demi-gods at that point.

When I'm DM'ing for kids I'm very animated, lots of description and acting out the scenes. For adults I tend to narrate/describe the highlights of the action and maybe give a recap at the end.


Spells like Deathward prevent one from dying to Death Effects.

That said, in my campaigns, being hit by a Wail of the Banshee or Finger of Death or whatnot would still leave you wishing you had died. No, you're not dead. But you feel like a part of yourself died with the spell.

Damage means physical damage. That still leaves pain. And pain isn't damage.

This is great stuff. Yeah, death magic should hurt. A lot!

Vitruviansquid
2015-05-27, 10:15 PM
I mean, I usually hear "gritty" meaning the setting is pessimistic about human nature and human frailty.

But I getcha.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-27, 10:40 PM
I mean, I usually hear "gritty" meaning the setting is pessimistic about human nature and human frailty.

Yeah, I don't really know what to call it.

Zalphon
2015-05-28, 12:03 AM
Honestly, Mag, my advice is this if you're doing it for your own campaign.

Follow the mechanics, but be narrativist with the fluff.



Imps have DR 5/Silver & Magic.

When a player hits them with something that is neither Silver, nor Magic, and for less than 6 damage. Here is how I would run it.

"Your sword cleaves the Imp in two, but it is as quickly as the sword passes through that the flesh regenerates as it was. The Imp just tilts its head and flashes a toothy grin, chunks of the Wizard's tissue still in his teeth. The beady, black eyes looking deep into your eyes and all that you can see when you look back is something truly devoid of any essence of humanity. It is as though you are staring into an endless well and the longer you stare, the more afraid you are that you'll never find your way back out."



Same base mechanics, but that Imp seems truly fiendish. It seems like an unspeakably evil monster, despite being a CR2-3 monster. And it should. The average person sees an Imp and they're going to run for the Hills.

icefractal
2015-05-28, 02:59 AM
Or, consider a high-level D&D fighter. His ridiculously high hit points don't come from the fact that he's actually able to withstand a bazooka blast to his face.Maybe not in your campaign. :smallwink:

Like Yukitsu, I find it cleaner and less fourth-wall breaking to simply say that yes, a high-level character really is that tough. Somebody stabs him in a bar fight, and the knife barely goes in - it's like trying to stab a tree. One drop of blood oozes out slowly, thick like molasses. Then he swats the knife casually away and continues unperturbed. As expected for someone who took a blast of dragon-breath hot enough to melt steel to the face last week and didn't even stop fighting.

Adding abstractions, like saying that even though he failed the save against the dragon breath, he didn't really get hit by it, he just dodged in a way that tired him out or got him partially singed, work for some people. Not so much for me - they have a way of multiplying, until the mechanics are increasingly far from representing anything. What if he was paralyzed when the dragon breathed? How does a poisoned spear that didn't even touch you manage to deliver the poison? What kind of lucky dodging would help against a cloud of flesh-melting acid that fills the entire room you're in, exactly? It just goes on.

This puts them outside the bounds of "normal human" - agreed. That's fine, because their teammates have also left those bounds far in the rear-view mirror. You're talking about people with Dr. Strange level magic, who fight things like Godzilla face to face by punching them. What part of that sounds normal?



But the idea that a peasant girl could ever gain enough "experience" that she could survive someone dropping a grenade into a bathtub full of hydrochloric acid she happened to be sitting in is just silly.Again, maybe to you. :smalltongue: What does experience represent, really? Just training and practice? But you can't get experience by pure study. And how does one "spend" training to create a magical item? When you consider experience as something that could include:
* Mythic resonance that accrues around those who perform significant deeds.
* Ambient magic that soaks into the body from the eldritch environments and creatures you face.
* Spirit force absorbed from defeated foes.

Then gaining such abilities seems natural enough. Or for that matter, maybe humans in a D&Dish setting are just capable of more things than RL humans. After all, they have to deal with dragons, demons, tentacle creatures, and thousands of other monsters. If they couldn't reach the point of being able to handle that, how would they even have survived to the present?

Maglubiyet
2015-05-28, 03:35 AM
Honestly, Mag, my advice is this if you're doing it for your own campaign.

Follow the mechanics, but be narrativist with the fluff.



Imps have DR 5/Silver & Magic.

When a player hits them with something that is neither Silver, nor Magic, and for less than 6 damage. Here is how I would run it.

"Your sword cleaves the Imp in two, but it is as quickly as the sword passes through that the flesh regenerates as it was. The Imp just tilts its head and flashes a toothy grin, chunks of the Wizard's tissue still in his teeth. The beady, black eyes looking deep into your eyes and all that you can see when you look back is something truly devoid of any essence of humanity. It is as though you are staring into an endless well and the longer you stare, the more afraid you are that you'll never find your way back out."



Same base mechanics, but that Imp seems truly fiendish. It seems like an unspeakably evil monster, despite being a CR2-3 monster. And it should. The average person sees an Imp and they're going to run for the Hills.

Great flavor! Yes, this is exactly how I run things like DR. Unless you're hitting a golem or a dragon's scales, your weapons still cause "damage" without actually hurting the creature. The form that takes depends on the nature of the creature you're hitting.


Maybe not in your campaign. :smallwink:

Like Yukitsu, I find it cleaner and less fourth-wall breaking to simply say that yes, a high-level character really is that tough.

I guess this is why D&D is no longer my game of choice. It's definitely fun when you want to model the Wile E. Coyote style of combat. I prefer more plausible explanations for the mechanics.`

Prime32
2015-05-28, 04:26 AM
I prefer more plausible explanations for the mechanics.Plausible =/= realistic. A normal human who can swim through lava and punch out dragons is far less plausible than a superhuman who can do the same.

I should point out that, according to all the spells that have HD limits or are based around souls, levelling up literally makes your soul more powerful. If you try to trap a fighter in a gem but underestimate his level, the gem will overload and explode.

If you don't want things to get over the top, play E6. There's no reason every campaign has to have the party doubling in power every few sessions

Mastikator
2015-05-28, 04:59 AM
The fluff has to match the mechanics, a normal mortal man can't wade through molten lava, but a 10th level fighter can.
So a 10th level fighter isn't a normal mortal man, he's a superhero. The fluff has to take that into account.

If I want the fluff to be gritty, the mechanics has to be gritty too. Any disconnect between mechanics and fluff will break the immersion.

Edit- In D&D anything above level 3 just isn't gritty and it couldn't be even if it wanted to be. The game mechanics have to be similar to GURPS if high level is to retain any grittyness at all.

Marlowe
2015-05-28, 05:13 AM
Yeah, level systems don't make a whole lot of sense when talking about mortal creatures. Superheroes, demigods, undead -- yes. But the idea that a peasant girl could ever gain enough "experience" that she could survive someone dropping a grenade into a bathtub full of hydrochloric acid she happened to be sitting in is just silly.

I realise it's not the point, but I don't see a lot of "gritty" in the assumption that peasant girls are going to be any more frail than anyone else.

NichG
2015-05-28, 06:04 AM
I tend to treat the ridiculous survivability of characters as an in-universe fact, that people look at and say 'how the heck did that happen, that's weird!'. When I'm running in a system where e.g. a standard powerful character can wade through magma, I tend to come up with a reason for that and then have that be something that can actually be discovered (and even exploited). So in D&D, a Lv20 Fighter actually has a reality-warping field around their body, or their soul is so strong that it battles off the reaper on the spiritual plane and refuses to let go of the body, or the character has at some level come to terms with the inherent unreality of the world, and simply refuses to believe that they are dead - and so they aren't, or things like that. So in that case, the fact that you got stabbed in the eye and keep on going without feeling it is something that makes people around the character sit up and take notice (and if the player chooses, for the character themselves to wonder 'what the heck?!').

That said, in the current game I'm running, the system is designed to be simultaneously very high and very low lethality. There's a bidding system on defenses, so as long as you're willing to bid high enough (and have the points to back it up), you can always guarantee 'the attack misses me', at least until the one where you're out of points and you can't - which usually either disables or kills you. You can also bid less in order to 'Endure' an attack, which is basically toughing it out by being awesome, but attacks can have secondary riders that trigger on you when you endure rather than evade. If that rider is, e.g., 'decapitation', then it doesn't matter whether you Endure since you're dead anyhow.

So with regards to that system, its pretty clear what happened in each case so there isn't as much flexibility in how serious things are when it comes to the descriptions.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-28, 06:59 AM
In D&D anything above level 3 just isn't gritty and it couldn't be even if it wanted to be. The game mechanics have to be similar to GURPS if high level is to retain any grittyness at all.

I wholeheartedly agree.


I should point out that, according to all the spells that have HD limits or are based around souls, levelling up literally makes your soul more powerful. If you try to trap a fighter in a gem but underestimate his level, the gem will overload and explode.


Good point. I don't necessarily like it, but I guess that's the way the game is built.


I realise it's not the point, but I don't see a lot of "gritty" in the assumption that peasant girls are going to be any more frail than anyone else.

Not sure what you mean. Peasants aren't necessarily any frailer than anyone else -- they may even be more hearty than most folk if they're accustomed to a life of hard labor. But nothing in their makeup suggests a predisposition to surviving point-blank explosive-driven shrapnel. It's not a skill you can learn no matter how hard you train.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-28, 07:05 AM
I tend to treat the ridiculous survivability of characters as an in-universe fact, that people look at and say 'how the heck did that happen, that's weird!'. When I'm running in a system where e.g. a standard powerful character can wade through magma, I tend to come up with a reason for that and then have that be something that can actually be discovered (and even exploited). So in D&D, a Lv20 Fighter actually has a reality-warping field around their body, or their soul is so strong that it battles off the reaper on the spiritual plane and refuses to let go of the body, or the character has at some level come to terms with the inherent unreality of the world, and simply refuses to believe that they are dead - and so they aren't, or things like that. So in that case, the fact that you got stabbed in the eye and keep on going without feeling it is something that makes people around the character sit up and take notice (and if the player chooses, for the character themselves to wonder 'what the heck?!').

Kind of like in the Matrix -- demi-gods walk the world.

So are the characters and maybe a couple of villains the only ones this applies to? It seems in normal distribution of a D&D city there would be many, many super-powered NPC's. Even a 10th-level Aristocrat or Peasant would be ridiculously resilient.

Marlowe
2015-05-28, 07:19 AM
Not sure what you mean. Peasants aren't necessarily any frailer than anyone else -- they may even be more hearty than most folk if they're accustomed to a life of hard labor. But nothing in their makeup suggests a predisposition to surviving point-blank explosive-driven shrapnel. It's not a skill you can learn no matter how hard you train.

But yet you used "peasant girl" as your example of somebody who cannot take punishment.

It's perfectly true. Dropping a peasant into an acid bath and then throwing in a grenade will probably muck peasant girl up. But your metaphor seemed to imply that a "peasant girl" is someone intrinsically weak and frail (At least, I think that's what you're doing. You started with said Peasant Girl bathing in the acid in the first place which was just confusing.) and that's a odd assumption to make in a thread about "grittiness".

Whatever that word means here. As Vitruiviansquid bought up, you're using the word in a way I'm not entirely familiar.

goto124
2015-05-28, 07:25 AM
Almost related.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/AZComics/comic299.png

Zalphon
2015-05-28, 11:09 AM
I personally have always roleplayed the XP Issue as genuine experience.

The 20th Level Fighter will at most, get nicked, by a kobold tribe as he wades through with a level of finesse more akin to a dance than combat.

The 20th Level Fighter when charred to a crisp by the Great Wyrm however, is just that, charred. His flesh is popping in agonizing blisters, if its not entirely blackened. But he has one thing going for him that the average person does not. He's got sheer force of will keeping him going.

"Yes, I'm in such pain that I can't help but scream. But I've endured this before. And I plan to kill you, then I'll deal with my agony."

NichG
2015-05-28, 11:15 AM
Kind of like in the Matrix -- demi-gods walk the world.

So are the characters and maybe a couple of villains the only ones this applies to? It seems in normal distribution of a D&D city there would be many, many super-powered NPC's. Even a 10th-level Aristocrat or Peasant would be ridiculously resilient.

Well for example, in the last D&D-based game I ran, 'leveling up' was the result of a series of medical treatments administered by a nation-wide guild. The formula for the treatment was a closely guarded secret and had to be customized to the individual and administered over a period of months or years in order to be safe (the main advancement method for the PCs), but of course there were bootleg versions, stolen doses, etc which would give someone a temporary surge of power but then quickly burn out, often causing permanent damage in the process (great for villains!). One variation for example would transform the body of the user, but reduce their future potential for growth (e.g. it granted a template with LA).

In that campaign, people sent to apprentice to the guild started receiving treatments in adolescence, so basically there were lots of Lv3 NPCs who were stuck at Lv3 with no possible way to advance, an organization of higher level characters who were recognized as such (along with all of the respect/resentment that would naturally result), and some pirate nations/etc that had tried to make their own level-up serum with varying levels of success.

Hawkstar
2015-05-28, 03:26 PM
I've never heard "grittiness" being defined as how much description you use, so I don't really know what you're asking here...
It's not "How much you describe" as much as "How you describe it". 'Gritty' descriptions generally emphasize and focus on fatigue, desperation, bloodsweattears, and close calls. Less gritty descriptions tend to be more flamboyant.

Compare gunfights in Die Hard with those in The Matrix, or battles in Saving Private Ryan with Star Wars.

Ettina
2015-05-28, 04:06 PM
The 20th Level Fighter when charred to a crisp by the Great Wyrm however, is just that, charred. His flesh is popping in agonizing blisters, if its not entirely blackened. But he has one thing going for him that the average person does not. He's got sheer force of will keeping him going.

"Yes, I'm in such pain that I can't help but scream. But I've endured this before. And I plan to kill you, then I'll deal with my agony."

But real-life willpower doesn't work that way. No amount of willpower will counter the fact that your tendons have warped due to the heat, or your muscles have lost their structural integrity. Plus, your brain has a way of overriding your will when your need is high enough.

I find it a lot more believable that the level 20 fighter's soul is enhanced in some way that takes him beyond human, than to believe a regular human, no matter how well-trained and determined, could get up and fight after being charred by a dragon.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-28, 04:31 PM
But yet you used "peasant girl" as your example of somebody who cannot take punishment.

It's perfectly true. Dropping a peasant into an acid bath and then throwing in a grenade will probably muck peasant girl up. But your metaphor seemed to imply that a "peasant girl" is someone intrinsically weak and frail.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. A 1st-level character presumably started out as a 0-level commoner at some point. Frail, weak, mortal. They weren't an invulnerable baby from Krypton, born with incredible powers that they then learned to master.

But later, as they gained experience, they somehow "learned" the skills necessary that would eventually allow them to wade through molten lava or fall from orbit without a scratch. Some people here have posted creative solutions to this conundrum -- a more powerful soul, magical enhancement, etc.

For me, I have never understood leveling in D&D to mean anything other than improving skills and abilities. A high-level character might have more grit and fortitude, be better at reading his opponents and avoiding damage, understand that he can push himself farther than others, but in the end is still mortal.

Taken literally, HP and AC and Saves in the d20 system don't reflect this. An epic character, the same one who started as a frail peasant girl, could literally bathe in acid amidst grenade explosions and not be overly concerned.


It's not "How much you describe" as much as "How you describe it". 'Gritty' descriptions generally emphasize and focus on fatigue, desperation, bloodsweattears, and close calls. Less gritty descriptions tend to be more flamboyant.

Compare gunfights in Die Hard with those in The Matrix, or battles in Saving Private Ryan with Star Wars.

Yes, this.

I prefer NOT to take the HP increases in level advancement literally. A 20th-level fighter attacked by a kobold with a short sword doesn't just stand firm and let the weapon bounce harmlessly off of him -- he gauges the swing and opponent's body language and twists at exactly the right moment, letting the blade skitter off. His high AC and HP come from long experience in battle that allow him to avoid critical damage and to soldier on with minor wounds.

I'm somewhat backed up on this. In 3.5 there's still the coup de grace maneuver that allows you to kill an incapacitated foe automatically. If a human truly had over 150 HP, it would be more like chopping down a tree, than slitting a throat.

Freelance GM
2015-05-28, 04:33 PM
I think of D&D as being set in a world that runs on action movie logic. Characters survive a giant's boulder the same way action heroes walk away from insane car crashes- they wince and sigh for a few seconds, and get right back into the fight.

With this mindset, hit points measure the character's plot armor, instead of their life force.

To convey this to my players, I describe HP damage as cuts, scrapes, bruises, and other superficial damage. Surviving more lethal effects is hand-waved as luck, fate, or sheer toughness. A mace hit is cushioned by the fighter's armor, an arrow only slightly grazes the rogue, or a Wizard's Mage Armor protects them from being instantly incinerated by a Fireball.

The only hits that actually cause real damage are crits and hits that drops the character to 0 or lower- when the character's plot armor runs out. Then, it gets real gritty real fast. Limbs are severed, bones are broken, and people explode when a Fireball cooks them.

Talakeal
2015-05-28, 04:42 PM
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. A 1st-level character presumably started out as a 0-level commoner at some point. Frail, weak, mortal. They weren't an invulnerable baby from Krypton, born with incredible powers that they then learned to master.

But later, as they gained experience, they somehow "learned" the skills necessary that would eventually allow them to wade through molten lava or fall from orbit without a scratch. Some people here have posted creative solutions to this conundrum -- a more powerful soul, magical enhancement, etc.

For me, I have never understood leveling in D&D to mean anything other than improving skills and abilities. A high-level character might have more grit and fortitude, be better at reading his opponents and avoiding damage, understand that he can push himself farther than others, but in the end is still mortal.

Taken literally, HP and AC and Saves in the d20 system don't reflect this. An epic character, the same one who started as a frail peasant girl, could literally bathe in acid amidst grenade explosions and not be overly concerned.



Yes, this.

I prefer NOT to take the HP increases in level advancement literally. A 20th-level fighter attacked by a kobold with a short sword doesn't just stand firm and let the weapon bounce harmlessly off of him -- he gauges the swing and opponent's body language and twists at exactly the right moment, letting the blade skitter off. His high AC and HP come from long experience in battle that allow him to avoid critical damage and to soldier on with minor wounds.

I'm somewhat backed up on this. In 3.5 there's still the coup de grace maneuver that allows you to kill an incapacitated foe automatically. If a human truly had over 150 HP, it would be more like chopping down a tree, than slitting a throat.

AD&D explicitly said that HP were as much about skill and luck as physical resilliance and that if a character was placed in a situation where survival was impossible such as being submerged in lava or crushed under a fifty ton boulder you could just say they were dead without any rolls.

Of course, it also said that an attack against a sleeping character was an auotmatic kill, which I find to be a bit much.

In 3.X I compromise by just using the coup de grace rules for any attackwhere the character cannot or will not defend themself for whatever reason.

Hawkstar
2015-05-28, 06:22 PM
AD&D explicitly said that HP were as much about skill and luck and physical resilliance and that if a character was placed in a situation where survival was impossible such as being submerged in lava or crushed under a fifty ton boulder you could just say they were dead without any rolls.

Of course, it also said that an attack against a sleeping character was an auotmatic kill, which I find to be a bit much.

In 3.X I compromise by just using the coup de grace rules. For any attackwhere the character cannot or will not defend themself for whatever reason.Of course, coup-de-grace rules do lead to would-be commoner assassins resorting to 3d12 Greataxes to try to slit throats instead of wimpy 2d4 daggers.

The "Helpless vs. High Level" thing is something I have a hard time working out. I can easily use the proper rules for lava damage (Found in Fire and Brimstone: A Comprehensive Guide to Lava, Magma, and Superheated Rock). However... I figure high-level characters who are attacked while merely asleep will probably wake up before the attack (Supernatural luck), and deflect the assassination attempt if they survive the coup-de-grace attempt.

Telok
2015-05-28, 06:48 PM
Over time I've begun to think of D&D style hit points as granularity in description instead of strict meat, and definitely not 'luck points'. An 8 point mace to the face might be "His skull crunches, bood squirts out his ears. He's dead." for a commoner, and "The mace bounces off your helmet. There's a dent and your ears are ringing but at least the blood from the pressure cut isn't getting in your eyes." for a leveled fighter.

When D&D characters get to high levels I just assume that the sheer amount and power of their mabic bling starts to warp reality. That's what magic does anyways so super survivability is just a sort of synergistic side effect of this. Their reality has been so warped by magic that this is what normal reality is in their presence.

kyoryu
2015-05-28, 08:35 PM
Well, D&D (especially WotC era), tends to be hard to be gritty at high levels, just because of HP inflation. High level D&D is just not that conducive to grittiness.

That said, I usually use a few things to help keep things "gritty".

1) The Chunky Salsa Rule (aka, guillotines don't have a damage die). If something happens to you in the world that would reduce you to the consistency of chunky salsa, you die. The rules around hp and whatnot are for the situations where danger is avoidable and you're actively avoiding it. Similarly, if someone slits your throat, you die. It doesn't do 1d4 damage. It kills you. You might get a saving throw to get away from it, but finger to the throat equals death.

You could even apply this to things like lava - the damage it does can well be understood to be the damage you take while trying to actively avoid it. If you sit in lava and take a bath, logically, you turn into a cinder.

2) Results as constraints on the narrative. This is something that's very true in Fate, but is useful in systems that aren't super-detailed in their resolution. Basically, the idea is that the result is a *constraint* on how you describe things, not a statement of what happened. So, like the imp example, if the net result is no damage occurs, you should feel free to narrate that however the heck you want, so long as the end result is consistent with the idea that no damage actually occurred. Similarly with hit point damage - if you take 8 hp and have 50, narrate it in such a way that is consistent with being slightly closer to defeat, but not being mortally injured in any way. In other words, if you have 50 hp, an 8hp blow is *not* a solid strike to the face!

Marlowe
2015-05-28, 08:51 PM
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. A 1st-level character presumably started out as a 0-level commoner at some point. Frail, weak, mortal. They weren't an invulnerable baby from Krypton, born with incredible powers that they then learned to master.


See, that's exactly what I meant. Assuming a "peasant girl" is going to be weak and frail is, in and of itself, not a realistic assumption. The assumption that you only become tough by leveling into something that's not a peasant even less so. Peasants are tough, physically hardy people. They have to be.

It seems that you're asking for something the system was never allowed to deliver, while at the same time accepting some parts of it that seem incompatible with your ideas without question.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-28, 10:06 PM
AD&D explicitly said that HP were as much about skill and luck as physical resilliance and that if a character was placed in a situation where survival was impossible such as being submerged in lava or crushed under a fifty ton boulder you could just say they were dead without any rolls..

Excellent, thanks. That must be where I got this belief about HP's.

Yet I think that message was lost somewhere along the way. A lot of people I know only seem to look at the raw numbers.


See, that's exactly what I meant. Assuming a "peasant girl" is going to be weak and frail is, in and of itself, not a realistic assumption. The assumption that you only become tough by leveling into something that's not a peasant even less so. Peasants are tough, physically hardy people. They have to be.

Hardy, yes. Able to withstand what a high-level character in D&D 3.5 can? No.

A typical 20th-level fighter could sit and pull the pins out of about a dozen fragmentation grenades, one by one, holding them in her hand, then nose dive off of a 5-storey building onto a concrete slab, and probably still be healthy enough to go out for a night of dancing. I imagine that the hardiest peasant girl that ever lived would have trouble getting past that second grenade.

Zalphon
2015-05-28, 10:14 PM
Well, D&D (especially WotC era), tends to be hard to be gritty at high levels, just because of HP inflation. High level D&D is just not that conducive to grittiness.

That said, I usually use a few things to help keep things "gritty".

1) The Chunky Salsa Rule (aka, guillotines don't have a damage die). If something happens to you in the world that would reduce you to the consistency of chunky salsa, you die. The rules around hp and whatnot are for the situations where danger is avoidable and you're actively avoiding it. Similarly, if someone slits your throat, you die. It doesn't do 1d4 damage. It kills you. You might get a saving throw to get away from it, but finger to the throat equals death.

You could even apply this to things like lava - the damage it does can well be understood to be the damage you take while trying to actively avoid it. If you sit in lava and take a bath, logically, you turn into a cinder.

2) Results as constraints on the narrative. This is something that's very true in Fate, but is useful in systems that aren't super-detailed in their resolution. Basically, the idea is that the result is a *constraint* on how you describe things, not a statement of what happened. So, like the imp example, if the net result is no damage occurs, you should feel free to narrate that however the heck you want, so long as the end result is consistent with the idea that no damage actually occurred. Similarly with hit point damage - if you take 8 hp and have 50, narrate it in such a way that is consistent with being slightly closer to defeat, but not being mortally injured in any way. In other words, if you have 50 hp, an 8hp blow is *not* a solid strike to the face!

I do like #2.

Darth Ultron
2015-05-29, 01:00 AM
See, that's exactly what I meant. Assuming a "peasant girl" is going to be weak and frail is, in and of itself, not a realistic assumption. The assumption that you only become tough by leveling into something that's not a peasant even less so. Peasants are tough, physically hardy people. They have to be.

It seems that you're asking for something the system was never allowed to deliver, while at the same time accepting some parts of it that seem incompatible with your ideas without question.

It is important to remember that D&D, like most RPG's has a set focus. D&D is a game about extraordinary heroes fighting monsters, and that is what 99% of the rules cover. D&D is not a complete alternative reality simulation. In D&D, a peasant girl is useless against monsters. D&D simply does not cover peasants and has very little rules for them, other then they can't fight monsters very well.

The Evil DM
2015-05-29, 02:53 AM
How is this for gritty

History: A buddy of mine asked me to come up with the most foul demon I could think of.

Spew the Eater

Long before you see it you notice the smell. Horrid, and acrid the odor burns your nostrils with acidity. The wretched creature has short fat legs, a large spherical and bulbous abdomen, long skinny and lean muscular arms with knuckles that drag on the ground. Its head is adorned with spikes, two large bulbous eyes that move independently and a large triangular maw filled with teeth that ooze forth a green necrotic substance. Its body drips from a wide variety of pustules and sores in his leprous flesh.

As it gets closer, the smell intensifies until it burns your eyes and sinuses. The burning blinds you and is painful. You can taste a bitter beer vomit flavor.

Spew is a wretched soul cursed to wander and feed. He is endlessly hungry feeding on the living but never satisfied. Spew is a rare cursed demon created from souls who lived a lifetime of greed and gluttony. He is tormented and hostile. He will attack a party of almost any size with abandon in order to take a single meal. Spew attempts to grapple a victim and carry the victim away to be eaten. If an opponent is large, Spew will tear away limbs and flee to eat.

Against large groups Spew will cling to ceilings and vomit down on them.

Large Fiend

Hit Dice: 12d12 +108 (216 hit points)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30ft (6 squares) spider climb 20ft (4 squares, can run)
Armor Class: 25 (Natural armor 14, dex 2, size -1) flat footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+27
Attack: Claw +19 (2d10+7+1d3 vile)
Full Attack: 2 Claws +17 (2d10+7+1d3 vile), Bite +14 (3d10+7+1d6 vile)
Space/Reach: 10ft/10ft
Special Attacks: Vomit, Sinus Leakage, Rectal Leakage, Gaseous Cloud, Puss Flick
Special Qualities: Darkvision (unlimited range), Acrid Cloud, Disease, Parasites, Rend, Green Slime, Damage Reduction 10 (magic) Immune to Acid, Fire (10), Electricity (10), Cold (10), Regeneration (5)
Saves: Fort, +15, Ref +10, Will +9
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 3
Skills: Ambush +17, Balance +10, Climb +10, Escape Artist +10, Jump +7, Listen +11, Move Silently +2, Search +7, Spot +11, Swim +7
Feats: Improved Grapple, Toughness, Fast Movement, Run, Agile, Improved Trip
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Environment: All environments lived in by Spew are corrupted with demon sewage.
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 15
Advancement: none
Level Adjustment: none

Typical Attack Spew attacks using a relentless hit and run tactic. He will engage with reckless abandon, grab a victim, rend if necessary and drag away the spoils to a hidden cave high up in a cavern. Then 15 minutes later, after his vomit and rectal spew attacks are ready to use again, he will go looking for more. If dead bodies are left behind he will scavenge before attacking, buy his victims another minute or two while he consumes the carrion.

Spew is not particularly intelligent nor is he a skilled warrior (hence no additional attacks due to BAB.) Spew is simply violent, relentless and hungry. He does not need to sleep, he does not need to rest, he only consumes and regenerates.

He has developed a few cunning tricks using his spider climb but he is very lacking in stealth and his smell gives him away. But his smell is so pervasive in his home territory it is hard to tell where he is because it is all around. (in his home, you won’t know he is present until your eyes blur up) Often he will wait on the ceiling and Vomit on a victim, or Rectal Spew on a group to cause disarray before he grabs and runs.

His attack is almost exclusively, touch attack then grapple for claw damage. He bites and claws only if unable to grapple.

Vomit Spew’s vomit is a virulent acid. He can use the vomit attack no more than once per fifteen minutes (150 combat rounds) Spew will typically flee after using his vomit attack on a meal, leaving a trail of oozing flesh drippings.

The vomit immediately does 10d6 damage + 1 Chr damage, has a duration of 10 rounds and the damage reduces by 1d6 each round (the 1 Chr damage remains constant, but Chr cannot be reduced below 1). The vomit is a death sentence for most people unless immediately rinsed with at least 100 gallons of water. (total damage 55d6 over 10 rounds, average damage 192.5) Any form of acid resistance applies.

The vomit affects anyone grappled by spew and anyone within 15 feet long and 10 foot wide cone. (those not grappled get Reflex Save (DC 20) for half damage and no Chr damage)

Sinus Leakage Spew has a number of various allergies and sinus problems. During every round of combat roll an additional unmodified initiative roll. When this secondary initiative segment arrives there is a 15% chance that spew will sneeze or otherwise blow his sinuses across his attackers. For the next four initiative segments he is flat footed, but everyone in a cone 30 feet long and 20 feet wide at the end is sprayed with demon mucous. The mucous carries diseases, parasites and causes 1 point of vile damage.

Rectal Leakage Spew continuously drips foul material from his demon anus. The leak is rather slow but leaves a readily identifiable trail. However, once every 15 minutes he can spew forth a great quantity of foul smelling liquid. This liquid coats everything in a 30 foot long 20 foot wide cone, acts as a grease spell, and causes infection on anyone with any wounds (damage currently recorded on character no longer heals naturally nor magically until cleansed by holy water)

Gaseous Cloud Spew has a number also has digestive problems. During every round of combat roll an third unmodified initiative roll. When this tertiary initiative segment arrives there is a 15% chance that Spew will let loose with a vile loud wet vile fart. For the next two initiative segments he is flat footed, as the fart is released (yes it is a 12 second fart). The fart acts as a stinking cloud spell with a save DC of 25. The effect is centered on Spew. He is immune.

Puss Flick Anytime Spew flails his long gangly arms for any reason, (attacking, grappling, general fighting) the sores and boils on his arm flick puss about in a 10 foot radius. Anyone within 10 feet of Spew is flicked with tiny droplets of puss. (Reflex Save vs DC 25 to avoid) The puss carries disease.

Acrid Cloud Spew is continuously surrounded by an acrid cloud that results from the all his various pusses, drools and vile emanations. The acrid cloud burn the sinuses and eyes of his victims. The cloud can be smelled more than 600 feet away, and within 60 feet of Spew the cloud causes temporary partial blindness (all concealment effects halved, vision beyond five feet is blurry and vague) and burns for 1d3 points of damage per combat round.

Acid resistance of (3) or greater prevents any and all damage from the acrid cloud including the blindness.

Disease and Parasites Spew is infected with several virulent diseases and parasites. Anyone who is touched by spew, or comes into contact with any of his various body fluids and gas, must make a Fortitude save versus diseases and parasites.

Rend If spew has managed to grapple a victim he cannot easily carry away, defined as more than 300lbs, Spew will rend them. The second round of grappling Spew will make a first grapple check to transfer his grip to one of his clawed feet. If successful, his claws will be free to inflict automatic damage on his victim as he tears off limbs. Removal of limbs is a contested strength roll between Spew and the Victim but Spew has a +8 bonus due to the leverage gained by his very long arms. Spew can rend two limbs a round, a failed rend attempt merely causes normal claw damage, a successful rend attempt causes double damage. Having ones limbs removed in this manner is typically fatal.

Green Slime Spew’s open sores release a green necrotic substance. This material is a living slime organism. It sticks to weapons that strike Spew, and it drips off of him. In his lair it pools.

See the monster “Green Slime” for effects.