Level 6 monk feat(s)

[brian c]

Okay, so I have a Paladin 2/Monk 3 who is about to level up, and I'm not sure what feats to take. Feats is plural because I also get one Exalted feat from Vow of Poverty.

What I have so far is:

(1)Sacred Vow
(1: human bonus)Vow of Poverty
(1: exalted) Nimbus of Light
(2: exalted) Intuitive Strike
(3: first level monk) Improved grapple
(3) Ascetic Knight
(4: second level monk) Deflect Arrows
(4: exalted) Leap of the Heavens (DM gave permission)


I only have 10 strength and 9 intelligence, so no Power Attack or Combat Expertise. Weapon Finesse would be a waste (Intuitive attack is +wis to attack rolls instead) but I do qualify for Dodge if I want it. I don't necessarily want the best crunch feat, but I'd like something that combines effectiveness with good fluff/flavor for a holy dude.

Any ideas? The DM has been pretty open about taking stuff from different books, but I don't think I can use Tome of Battle.

I'm thinking about Improved Initiative, TWF, Open-Minded is attractive because I have very low skill points (9 int, remember?). For the exalted feat, I'm thinking Gift of Grace or Holy Radiance. I have +2 cha, so sharing that wouldn't be a whole big difference, but my saving throws are so much higher than the rest of the party's that it seems unfair (I know that's how Monks are, but the character is pious and helpful). I'd think about Stigmata, but I only have 10 con as it is. Yeah, I rolled terribly at character creation.

[Kel_Arath]

TWF is bad because you have flurry, open minded would never be bad and add yummy yummy flavor (skills will do that).

[Kultrum]

Nymphs kiss would counter act the -1 you are getting to skill points

[Lolzords]

You're playing two combat based classes with 10 str?

Damn, you pulled the short straw.

[LCR]

Well, he's all helpful and such. Being a too strong Paladin/Monk would just be unfair ...

[brian c]

You're playing two combat based classes with 10 str?

Damn, you pulled the short straw.

Yeah... my stats:

10 str
14 dex
10 con
9 int
18 wis
14 cha

The other party members are a sorceror (first-time player, blaster-type), and Rogue 2/Wizard 3, a dwarf fighter w/ heavy armor and a flail, and a TWF ranger (also first time playing). Everyone is level 5.


@Kultrum: Nymph's Kiss is a great feat, but you have to have a romantic relationship with a good-aligned Fey. Since this is a fairly heavy-RP game, I'd actually have to do that in order to take the feat.

[Matthew]

Sadly, your Character wouldn't have even qualified for Two Weapon Fighting, as the prerequisite is Dexterity 15. With such a low Strength, I might even recommend Weapon Focus (Unarmed Attack), but there are better Feats out there. Open Minded seems like a good idea at this point...

[Person_Man]

Yeah... my stats:

10 str
14 dex
10 con
9 int
18 wis
14 cha


Wow. You rolled some really cruddy stats. Then you picked the the two classes with the worst MAD. Then you multi-classed for some reason even though Monk and Paladin don't compliment each other at all. And your party lacks a Cleric or a Druid, which would have been the natural choices for your stats. And you passed up Stunning Fist, the most powerful part about being a Monk, and took Improved Grapple, which is useless with your low Str. And your Cha is too low to get anything meaningful out of the usual Paladin feats. And you have VoP, which means you can't even buy useful magic items, depowering your build even further once you hit mid levels. Wow.

Is there any way you could retrain into another class, or have your Paladin/Monk "accidentally" fall into a bottomless pit so that you can make a new PC?

If not, I'd suggest the Touch of Golden Ice feat. It'll make your unarmed attacks a lot more potent vs. Evil enemies.

[the_tick_rules]

if ya wanna continue the exalted route sancitfy ki strike then holy ki strike. improved natural atack from MM is a must for any monk also.

[brian c]

Wow. You rolled some really cruddy stats. Then you picked the the two classes with the worst MAD. Then you multi-classed for some reason even though Monk and Paladin don't compliment each other at all. And your party lacks a Cleric or a Druid, which would have been the natural choices for your stats. And you passed up Stunning Fist, the most powerful part about being a Monk, and took Improved Grapple, which is useless with your low Str. And your Cha is too low to get anything meaningful out of the usual Paladin feats. And you have VoP, which means you can't even buy useful magic items, depowering your build even further once you hit mid levels. Wow.

Is there any way you could retrain into another class, or have your Paladin/Monk "accidentally" fall into a bottomless pit so that you can make a new PC?

If not, I'd suggest the Touch of Golden Ice feat. It'll make your unarmed attacks a lot more potent vs. Evil enemies.

I'm well-aware that this isn't optimized. This is what I wanted, I had a good character concept and I wasn't going to abandon it just because I rolled poorly. My party also isn't optimized, but the DM is only giving us appropriate encounters. I'm one of those people who enjoys RPing characters even (and sometimes especially) if they aren't optimized. I didn't ask for a critique of my character so far, I just asked if anyone had suggestions for what feat(s) to take next. Touch of Golden Ice is a good suggestion, thank you.

[Rama_Lei]

There's a feat that stacks monk and paladin levels for smite evil and unarmed strike.

[brian c]

There's a feat that stacks monk and paladin levels for smite evil and unarmed strike.

Ascetic Knight; I have that, but thanks, it is very helpful.


Oh, and I forgot to mention this earlier (Person_Man, pay attention) but there's an NPC cleric with us so he takes care of healing. The party is pretty well-rounded, though considering we have 6 members I guess it had better be.

[Rahdjan]

I'm well-aware that this isn't optimized. This is what I wanted, I had a good character concept and I wasn't going to abandon it just because I rolled poorly. My party also isn't optimized, but the DM is only giving us appropriate encounters. I'm one of those people who enjoys RPing characters even (and sometimes especially) if they aren't optimized. I didn't ask for a critique of my character so far, I just asked if anyone had suggestions for what feat(s) to take next. Touch of Golden Ice is a good suggestion, thank you.

That's exactly what you are doing. To give worth while advice on the future, you have to understand the past (Zen anyone?). If someone sees a negative trend in your character, it's pointless to think it can be solved by the "perfect feat". In the end your going to do what you want. You were just hoping someone would recommend what you wanted so your idea would be validated.


P.S. I reccomend Monkey Grip

[Ninja Chocobo]

P.S. I reccomend Monkey Grip

That had better be sarcasm. I say Stunning Fist. Best part about being a monk.

[Rahdjan]

That had better be sarcasm. I say Stunning Fist. Best part about being a monk.

it was. He has VoP, it's not like he could even own a weapon to wield with it. I just don't see his character doing much so it seemed only natural for him to take Monkey Grip.

[Demented]

Couldn't he still use improvised weapons? So long as he returns them after he's done using them....

"But... but... that was the fender on my Ferrari!"
"It seemed like a good mace at the time."

"What is THAT?"
"I think it's a broken fire stoker, but it makes a great sai."

As for the feat...
Open-Minded just sounds more fun than the rest.

[brian c]

That's exactly what you are doing. To give worth while advice on the future, you have to understand the past (Zen anyone?). If someone sees a negative trend in your character, it's pointless to think it can be solved by the "perfect feat". In the end your going to do what you want. You were just hoping someone would recommend what you wanted so your idea would be validated.


P.S. I reccomend Monkey Grip

Um... I wasn't asking anyone to "fix" my build. I was asking what a good feat might be in my situation, that's all. I know that there's no perfect feat, and I don't need people to validate my ideas. As it stands, the useful comments in this thread have made me think about Touch of Golden Ice and Improved Natural Attack as feats, and reinforced my belief that Open-Minded would be a good choice. I'm sorry if what I said was unclear, but I'm not upset or uncomfortable with my character at all, I was just wondering about ideas for my next week.

Technically, I'm allowed to own a non-masterwork weapon, but as a monk I'm better off fighting unarmed anyway.

[Telonius]

Don't worry about not taking Stunning Fist. I played a VoP monk for 18 levels, and regretted not taking Improved Grapple instead (I took it as a normal feat at around 6th level, I think). In 18 levels of play, I did not successfully stun a single enemy we ever faced. In my entire gaming career, I've never seen a PC get stunned by a monk. Stunning Fist is dead to me, as one more bit of uselessness for the Monk.

Planning ahead a bit, "Fiery Fist" and or "Water Splitting Stone" from the PHB 2 would be an option as a 9th level feat. "Ki Blast" is another good one. "Sun School" from Complete Warrior could give you a few more combat options.

I would suggest using your Vow of Poverty ability bumps in this order: Wisdom, Strength, Constitution, Dexterity. You'll eventually qualify for Power Attack, with the ability bumps, if you want it. If you DM is nice, see if you can get him to houserule allowing you normal feats instead of the Exalted bonus feats you get from VoP. At least for a full monk, you rapidly run out of useful feats (though this might be less of a problem for Paladins).

[Person_Man]

I'm well-aware that this isn't optimized. This is what I wanted, I had a good character concept and I wasn't going to abandon it just because I rolled poorly. My party also isn't optimized, but the DM is only giving us appropriate encounters. I'm one of those people who enjoys RPing characters even (and sometimes especially) if they aren't optimized. I didn't ask for a critique of my character so far, I just asked if anyone had suggestions for what feat(s) to take next. Touch of Golden Ice is a good suggestion, thank you.

Hey Brian. You've been uber polite about this, which everyone appreciates. But just a heads up - if you ask for build advice of any type on this board, even on something specific and limited like your next feat choice, people are going to critique your entire build.

We do this partly because we see tons of people who really have no idea how to build correctly. And we do it partly because we're a bunch of sarcastic gamers, and criticism is second nature to us.

And I'd also like to say that I believe my criticism was apt. Just because you rolled poorly, and you wanted to play a Paladin/Monk for fluff reasons, it still doesn't explain why you chose poor feats like Nimbus of Light, Improved Grapple, and Leap of Heavens. With a different feat selection, you could be playing a much stronger PC, without sacrificing any fluff.

Or conversely, if you're not interested in playing a strong PC because you enjoy playing a weak build, then there is no reason for you to come to the board and ask for feat advice. So since you did come here for feat advice, it was logical for us to conclude that you want to play a stronger build, and we are therefore entitled to criticize your current build.

Anywho, it sounds like you have a good handle on the whole thing. Stunning Fist and Touch of Golden Ice should help you out a lot.

[Jayabalard]

We do this partly because we see tons of people who really have no idea how to build correctly optimally.Fixed that for you.

I personally think it's pretty logical to assume that he wants something "that combines effectiveness with good fluff/flavor for a holy dude" rather than "the best crunch feat", or critique on his build... since that is what he asked for, and since he mentioned that he's playing in a heavily RP campaign, which tends to mean high-fluff-low-crunch.

[Rahdjan]

Fixed that for you.

I personally think it's pretty logical to assume that he wants something "that combines effectiveness with good fluff/flavor for a holy dude" rather than "the best crunch feat", or critique on his build... since that is what he asked for, and since he mentioned that he's playing in a heavily RP campaign, which tends to mean high-fluff-low-crunch.

But no one here can give fluff advice, that's entirely up to the player. All we can do is offer feat "X" with result "Y"

[Jayabalard]

Untrue, it's quite easy to give someone suggestions on things that could match the fluff as presented; giving someone advice for feats that match a given character would be something like: "x, y, and z feats might be appropriate for the character as you've described him"

I did the same sort of thing on another thread, where someone was looking for advice on a barbarian with a reach weapon.

The worst case is that they say "nah, that doesn't seem to be the direction I want to go" and don't use your advice. You haven't critiqued anything that they've chosen, and you're not making a judgment on their playstyle.

on the other hand, if responding with a critique of someone character and that the best thing they can do is "fall into a bottomless pit so that you can make a new PC" is not really appropriate

[Cyborg Pirate]

Untrue, it's quite easy to give someone suggestions on things that could match the fluff as presented; giving someone advice for feats that match a given character would be something like: "x, y, and z feats might be appropriate for the character as you've described him"

Only if we were given a lot of fluff to work with. Which is something we haven't got in this case. All we really have is his build and the information that the campaign is RP-heavy. Which doesn't tell us anything.

Basically, I'm surprised that anyone is surprised the build gets some critique.

[Jayabalard]

Which in itself doesn't tell us anything.It tells me enough to know that criticizing a character for not being optimized, and advising that he should kill his PC and create a new one is not really appropriate.

[Person_Man]

Fixed that for you.

I personally think it's pretty logical to assume that he wants something "that combines effectiveness with good fluff/flavor for a holy dude" rather than "the best crunch feat", or critique on his build... since that is what he asked for, and since he mentioned that he's playing in a heavily RP campaign, which tends to mean high-fluff-low-crunch.

I basically agreee with your correction. Most of the time, we give advice on how to build optimally, not correctly. But I think its a matter of degrees.

Taking Monkey Grip or Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack is always stupid. It doesn't add to the fluff of your PC. They're just stupid feats that seem good on the surface but really suck. It's blatantly not a correct choice to use them. And as Rahdjan points out, we really don't argue with fluff. You can have almost any build, and then roleplay whatever fluff you want on top of it. Playing a highly optimal build in no way subtracts from my ability to roleplay an interesting and complex PC.

But in general, I agree with your "different stokes for different folks" comment. But 90% of the threads on this board are still going to be about crunch, and crunch is usually about optimizing your build to do certain things. As long as your clear about what you want to do, everyone gets together fine.

[brian c]

Don't worry about not taking Stunning Fist. I played a VoP monk for 18 levels, and regretted not taking Improved Grapple instead (I took it as a normal feat at around 6th level, I think). In 18 levels of play, I did not successfully stun a single enemy we ever faced. In my entire gaming career, I've never seen a PC get stunned by a monk. Stunning Fist is dead to me, as one more bit of uselessness for the Monk.

Planning ahead a bit, "Fiery Fist" and or "Water Splitting Stone" from the PHB 2 would be an option as a 9th level feat. "Ki Blast" is another good one. "Sun School" from Complete Warrior could give you a few more combat options.

I would suggest using your Vow of Poverty ability bumps in this order: Wisdom, Strength, Constitution, Dexterity. You'll eventually qualify for Power Attack, with the ability bumps, if you want it. If you DM is nice, see if you can get him to houserule allowing you normal feats instead of the Exalted bonus feats you get from VoP. At least for a full monk, you rapidly run out of useful feats (though this might be less of a problem for Paladins).

I'll think about stunning fist, but frankly it just doesn't interest me and I think we might be facing a lot of undead soon, so I'd rather not. As for taking normal feats with my bonus exalteds, my DM (female) has let me do that for Leap of the Heavens but I'm thinking about retraining that. I think she'd be willing to let me take general feats, but there are a couple more exalted ones that are worth it I think, like Touch of Golden Ice.

[Person_Man]

I'll think about stunning fist, but frankly it just doesn't interest me and I think we might be facing a lot of undead soon, so I'd rather not. As for taking normal feats with my bonus exalteds, my DM (female) has let me do that for Leap of the Heavens but I'm thinking about retraining that. I think she'd be willing to let me take general feats, but there are a couple more exalted ones that are worth it I think, like Touch of Golden Ice.

Well, if you know you're in an all Undead all the time campaign, then obviously you don't need Stunning Fist.

But for strait Monks, Stunning Fist is usually the most important part of the build. You get a tremendous number of uses per day. If you make your first hit of a Flurry a Stunning Fist, you can usually succeed on every other hit (and if you have Touch of Golden Ice, then the target is almost always dead).

And most importantly, when you hit high levels you can get Freezing the Lifeblood from Complete Warrior. This allows you to paralyze your enemy for 1d4+1 rounds with a Stunning Fist attack. Paralyzed = helpless, which means that you pretty much auto-hit with any other attack, and you or another party member can Coup de Grace them (be sure to carry a Pick for just this occasion).

If your DM also lets you grab feats off of Crystalkeep or Dragon magazine, you can also take Preasure Point Strike. This let's you spend Stunning Fist uses to negate various effects: Stun, Deaf, Blind, Paralyzed, Poison, SR, ability to cast, etc. Again, this can be huge, since you always have it ready, and Clerics can often be jerks about not memorizing Restoration type spells.

[Jaltum]

So since you did come here for feat advice, it was logical for us to conclude that you want to play a stronger build, and we are therefore entitled to criticize your current build.

Can you imagine if the standards of courtesy prevalent on the Internet obtained everywhere? Imagine a sushi restaurant...

"Excuse me, do you know which of these two entrees is lower calorie? I'm not entirely familiar with this kind of food."

"Wow, you're really fat."

"...uh, okay, but do you know which of these--"

"I figure, you're so fat, you should probably skip lunch, go the gym, and go to a different restaurant when you're not so fat."

"...look, that's both rude and pretty irrelevant to my choice of lunch right here."

"No, you asked me what you should eat, specifically for health reasons, so it's logical that you're asking me to criticize not just your current choices but all your health choices so far. And it's clear to me your health choices so far have made you really really fat, and most of us in this restaurant like to be good-looking and athletic, so you're just asking for it, really."

[Person_Man]

Can you imagine if the standards of courtesy prevalent on the Internet obtained everywhere? Imagine a sushi restaurant...

"Excuse me, do you know which of these two entrees is lower calorie? I'm not entirely familiar with this kind of food."

"Wow, you're really fat."

"...uh, okay, but do you know which of these--"

"I figure, you're so fat, you should probably skip lunch, go the gym, and go to a different restaurant when you're not so fat."

"...look, that's both rude and pretty irrelevant to my choice of lunch right here."

"No, you asked me what you should eat, specifically for health reasons, so it's logical that you're asking me to criticize not just your current choices but all your health choices so far. And it's clear to me your health choices so far have made you really really fat, and most of us in this restaurant like to be good-looking and athletic, so you're just asking for it, really."

ROTFL. Point taken.

But obviously you've never hung out in a comic or gaming store, because that's exactly how we treat each other.

Also, you correctly noted that the courtesy norms on this board are prevalent throughout the internet. So the treatment we give people is not unexpected. If anything, this board is far nicer then most others, because the mods police for flaming, and topics about real world religion and politics are banned.

[Rahdjan]

Can you imagine if the standards of courtesy prevalent on the Internet obtained everywhere? Imagine a sushi restaurant...

"Excuse me, do you know which of these two entrees is lower calorie? I'm not entirely familiar with this kind of food."

"Wow, you're really fat."

"...uh, okay, but do you know which of these--"

"I figure, you're so fat, you should probably skip lunch, go the gym, and go to a different restaurant when you're not so fat."

"...look, that's both rude and pretty irrelevant to my choice of lunch right here."

"No, you asked me what you should eat, specifically for health reasons, so it's logical that you're asking me to criticize not just your current choices but all your health choices so far. And it's clear to me your health choices so far have made you really really fat, and most of us in this restaurant like to be good-looking and athletic, so you're just asking for it, really."


That would have been a great example if the OP had asked "Which feat grants a better AC bonus, Dodge or Cleave?"

[Jayabalard]

it's a pretty good example regardless... if you want it to match a little more clearly, change the first line to

"Excuse me, I know I want to get a spider roll and a spicy tuna roll, do you have any suggestions of things that would go well with that?"
and follow it up with the rest of his example...

[Jaltum]

Not really. He asked what feat he should take next, not for a total critique of his character to date. If your best advance for someone is "Your character sucks so much it doesn't matter what feat you take, kill him and start over."/"You're so fat that it doesn't matter what you eat at this point, go find a treadmill," you're rude.

It's rude.

This is rude behavior. It's taking a query of limited scope and expanding it into general criticism of someone's behavior in general.

"Where should I go on my honeymoon?"

"Really, you should dump your fiance and date someone better-looking. Hey, you asked!"

[Rahdjan]

People ask for advice because they want to improve themselves and they don't know how to do it. Good advice shouldn't be limited just because the question was.

EXAMPLE OF GOOD ADVICE

THEM: Should I shoot myself with a .38 special or a .44 Mag?
ME: I don't think you should shoot yourself at all, I think you should get counceling.

see how it goes outside the scope of the question to improve the person when they don't know how themselves?


EXAMPLE OF GOOD ADVICE STAYING WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE QUESTION.

THEM: Should I shoot myself with a.38 special or a .44 Mag?
Me: .44 Mag for sure. You'll only need one shot and it should be pretty painless.


See the difference?

[Jayabalard]

Shooting yourself with a gun or not shooting yourself is a situation where one side is inherently better than another. Offering advice not to shoot yourself does help improve the person.

Optimizing a character or not optimizing it is a situation where one side is not inherently better than another. Offering advice on how to optimize is does not necessarily improve the character. Certainly, it may make it more powerful, but whether that improves anything is a matter of opinion.

see the difference?

Claiming that your example justifies Person man's rant, the one that concludes with the suggestion to kill off his useless character, suggests that you believe that optimization is some sort of virtue and that people who don't really care about optimizing their character are playing the wrong way... which is pretty insulting in and of itself.

[Jaltum]

...wow.

Even if you grant that being underoptomized is bad, looking at these examples--

Being overweight is bad for you. Nevertheless, it is not the business of someone you ask about food to make remarks about your weight, even so.

Killing yourself is very, very bad for you. So bad that it is the moral duty of someone you ask for advice about weaponry to counsel you not to do it.

Which one of these scenarios is more like playing an underpowered build in D&D?

[Deel]

This is the internet. We have anonymity. You can't expect us to be nice with that. We're entitled to be as mean and nasty as we want with no fear of reprecussions. :smallcool:

[Telonius]

This is the internet. We have anonymity. You can't expect us to be nice with that. We're entitled to be as mean and nasty as we want with no fear of reprecussions. :smallcool:


Ahh, you refer to Gabe's (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19)theory? :smallamused:

[brian c]

Okay, guys, the point has been made that I didn't ask for a critique. Stop beating a dead horse, and unless you have something nice to say, or something to say about what feats I should take, then don't say anything at all please :)

[Jaltum]

You're right, I'm sorry. I was reacting to some RL anxiety by being 'Net irritable and that's rude on my part.

Apologies.