Help as a PC White Dragon

[Nanolicious]

Started playing a white dragon after joining friends who are currently lvl 7. I was excited to see that many levels later I can cast spells. My DM is a little irritated that I chose a dragon now but was totally on board at the beginning. Seems he is now trying to limit my power, telling me I can't use my blind-sense which I realized was because there was a stealthed character that would appear later in the dungeon we were exploring. I'm pretty new but have been doing a ton of reading on being a dragon but was just hit with this: Last week our cleric wanted me to help out healing, I told him I couldn't but I can cast arcane spells much later. DM tells me after the session that I can't grow past juvenile because the dragonomicon only shows progression to a ECL of 20. The monster guide however shows how to progress past this and it never states that you can't stop growing. I am asking the forum to explain dragons as a PC to me and more specifically if I can grow to spell casting size or not.

[LoyalPaladin]

I cant say much as a PC, but don't dragons take a long time to shift age categories? I'm surprised you were allowed to play one at all. This seems like your DM's fault for not looking far enough into it. Dragon's are in the name of the game for a reason, they are a big deal.

Perhaps Zaydos will pop in here, he's sort of the dragon king.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Yea, it will take a long time for you to age up. Also if you look at white dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) you will see its post juvenile LA is "-". This means that it is unsuitable for player characters. The DM is actually correct for two reasons in forbidding you from advancing past juvenile.

[Deadline]

The 3.5 Monster Manual only gives LA values for Juvenile and younger White Dragons. Everything above that is listed as LA -. So it looks like a full-HD Juvenile White Dragon would be the equivalent of a 17th level character (12 Hit Dice + 5 LA). At that point, it would need to take Class levels to advance.

[Extra Anchovies]

Well, if you want to be PC about it the correct term is Caucasian dragon.

Whether you can grow to casting size depends on what level your game will run to. I have no idea why Draconomicon didn't give LA values for epic characters, but there's probably someone who's come up with what those numbers would/should be.

Personally, I'd allow a dragon PC in my game without any level adjustment at all. Sure, they're fairly strong, but they don't have any even remotely gamebreaking abilities (with the exception of flight, if your DM is bad at designing encounters). They make good natural attackers and have enough skills that they don't need to boost their Int at all, but they're not overly versatile or powerful. I'd put them at a solid T3, in that they can do a few things well (skirmish via flyby attack + breath weapon, wreck faces with natural attacks) and can contribute somewhat effectively in other areas (utility from skills and what limited casting they get).

Regarding the blindsense in particular, tell your DM about Darkstalker, a feat from Lords of Madness. It lets characters hide from creatures with blindsense/tremorsense, which is exactly what he was trying to do. Giving NPCs rules-legal, already-existent abilities is always better than handwaving away an ability that a PC gets automatically.

[Nanolicious]

Thank you very much, I hadn't heard of LA before so I just did a quick google search then checked the Monster Manual. Like I said I am new and am skeptical now that I am being told I can and can't do things my DM previously had added to my character sheet for me. Thank you for the info though!

[Shoat]

Considering the time scale of most campaigns, the aging categories and advancement of a dragon are completely irrelevant to you (for the same reason why getting stat bonuses/penalties from aging is never relevant for "normal" PCs), so you shouldn't bet on gaining spellcasting access from your race "later".

You're basically going to be stuck with the same line in the age advancement table (and, thus, the same LA, same hit dice, same breath weapon, same size, same spellcasting or lack thereof) for most or all of the campaign.
Which is entirely okay since white dragons are the lowest-power among true dragons and thus have comparatively low LA/RacialHD costs (allowing you to get more actual levels). As someone (who was faster at typing than me) stated above, dragon PCs aren't utterly gamebreaking either (even if you chose a stronger dragon type).

[Red Fel]

I am asking the forum to explain dragons as a PC to me and more specifically if I can grow to spell casting size or not.

First off, you should probably read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook). It's Urpriest's guide to monsters, and you'll want to read it irrespective of what kind of monster you're playing.

Next, you'll want to read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-%28WIP%29). It's WhamBamSam's handbook to True Dragons.

Now, you'll want to keep in mind that dragons have two forms of level increase - RHD, or racial hit dice, and LA, or level adjustment. RHD are intrinsic to being a Dragon, and they come with the package. White Dragon Wyrmlings have 3 Dragon RHD, meaning the equivalent of three levels that you can't buy off. They also have a +2 LA; if your DM allows LA buyoff, that's a thing, but otherwise, you're looking at a +5 adjustment in a level 7 party. That will sting a bit.

Aside from this initial level investment, however, you can simply take class levels. You'd have to ask other posters about how a Dragon can advance through age categories (short of curse shenanigans) but nothing stops you from simply taking class levels and advancing that way. So pick a class or concept you like, stay a Wyrmling, and run with it.

[Nanolicious]

@ Anchovies. Maybe he does know about that ability and I will tell him. He's played for 10 years and this is his first DM compared to me joining 2 months ago. The problem was that one of our guys characters died in the zone we returned to and was reanimanted somehow? there was a succubus involved. Basically he was using that old characters skills but wanted it to be a surprise when he popped out and whatnot / be a challenge.

[Segev]

You're playing the right kind of dragon for my suggestion, so while it may not fit with what you're currently doing, maybe there's something you can glean from it: Play a Dragonfire Adept.

A white wyrmling is ECL 5 on its own (3 HD +2 LA). (I actually prefer Pseudodragons for this build for that reason, as +3 LA can be bought off more effectively, but it's a bit of a wash for your purposes.)

For your 6th effective level, don't advance Dragon. You shouldn't be "leveling" into higher age categories, anyway, since age categories are about, well, age. Instead, take levels of Dragonfire Adept (from Complete Dragon). There are a few things that are a little awkward in their interactions with already being a dragon, but the class features by and large make you only more dragon-like (if a bit less focused on being a white dragon).

For house ruled changes based on being already a white dragon, I recommend you discuss with your DM:

Trade the free 'dragontouched' feat for a generic bonus feat, possibly negotiated with the DM such that it reflects "I'm a dragon!" in some way. You're already a dragon, so the fluff of "dragontouched" doesn't make a lot of sense, and, IIRC, its benefits are even less for you than for others.
Pick up cold breath as soon as possible as a breath effect, and talk to your DM about trading your innate cold breath from your race for a bonus +1d6 to the class-granted one. It will work more smoothly, is a nice (but not generally overwhelming) boost, and means you don't have to track one breath weapon while using others at-will.

You don't need to do anything about the NAC bonuses; your scales are just thickening even more. Gaining energy resistances is nice to complement your immunity to cold due to your subtype.

And, overall, you'll be more and more generically a [i]dragon[i] as you level up, you'll get reasonable (if a bit delayed) spell-like abilities you can tailor for the feel you want, and you are advancing in a class already designed to be played in the power curve of a PC, rather than a monster race that the designers of the game really were uncomfortable letting players have.

[Nanolicious]

Aside from this initial level investment, however, you can simply take class levels. You'd have to ask other posters about how a Dragon can advance through age categories (short of curse shenanigans) but nothing stops you from simply taking class levels and advancing that way. So pick a class or concept you like, stay a Wyrmling, and run with it.
So I currently have 3HD from being a dragon starting out correct? I also put 2 into rogue so far on my sheet. This seems to be correct, or am I forced into putting 1 of my available levels into dragon then only 1 into rogue? I will take a look at those guides, thank you for the material.

[Nanolicious]

@ segev If I hadn't already started the campaign as a rogue i would totally change to this. It sounds badass

[Red Fel]

So I currently have 3HD from being a dragon starting out correct? I also put 2 into rogue so far on my sheet. This seems to be correct, or am I forced into putting 1 of my available levels into dragon then only 1 into rogue? I will take a look at those guides, thank you for the material.

3 RHD, +2 LA. So you're starting at 5, unless the DM has allowed LA buyoff. If you put 2 levels into Rogue, that makes you a White Wyrmling with 2 levels of Rogue, ECL 7.

If buyoff is allowed, you can take your 2 levels of Rogue and then other levels. You don't have to "put levels into dragon." You're a Dragon. That's done. Now work on being a player character.

If you prefer to make a bigger Dragon, be advised that a Very Young White Dragon has 6 RHD and +3 LA, so that's ECL 9. Now, if memory serves, Draconomicon gives options for advancing dragons by tacking on RHD and levels, but I don't know the details on that; you'd have to ask somebody else. But if you're content being a Wyrmling, you can advance class levels for the rest of it and be fine.

[Extra Anchovies]

Regarding dragon HD and age categories:

There are two ways that a dragon gains HD, and those are A) aging and B) gaining experience points (like how every other monster gains HD, a process to which dragons aren't called out as an exception). Obviously, the latter option is a lot faster, so you'll have situations where a dragon gains enough HD that it advances to the next age category while being much younger than the age at which they would normally reach that category. I don't see this as a problem. From my perspective, there are two ways to explain this in-game (the former being simpler, the latter being more interesting):

1. The chronological scale for age category advancement is the typical rate at which dragons grow, and most dragons play it a lot safer than PC dragons, who go out and adventure instead of hiding on their hoards and killing the occasional greedy knight. PC dragons don't actually age faster, they just grow faster with all the activity and practice they're getting, and they will thus reach the Great Wyrm category much sooner than other dragons and will spend the rest of their life at the height of their power, spending a much longer time there than non-adventuring dragons will.
2. The god or gods of the dragons siphons power from them, slowing their rate of power advancement to that dictated by the age categories. Some dragons have broken free from this price, and thus advance in power much more quickly than dragons still bound to the deities. The dragon gods don't like this, of course, and will send agents after the adventuring dragons to get them back into the power-transfer deal (e.g. Bahamut would send proselytizers to convince them to grant their power to Bahamut that he may use it for the greater good, and Tiamat would send hordes of dragonspawn to bully the dragon into subservience and kill them if they do not comply).

[torrasque666]

Regarding dragon HD and age categories:

There are two ways that a dragon gains HD, and those are A) aging and B) gaining experience points (like how every other monster gains HD, a process to which dragons aren't called out as an exception). Obviously, the latter option is a lot faster, so you'll have situations where a dragon gains enough HD that it advances to the next age category while being much younger than the age at which they would normally reach that category. I don't see this as a problem. From my perspective, there are two ways to explain this in-game (the former being simpler, the latter being more interesting):
The draconomicon details this. Regardless of how many HD a Dragon has, they only gain the new abilities of an age category when their actual age hits that point. They must also only gain Dragon HD by aging, not through experience. Using its example of a Gold Dragon paladin who had a total of 15 HD (10 Dragon, 5 Paladin), it only had the abilities of a Wyrmling and wouldn't gain the abilities of a Very Young dragon until it was actually old enough.

[Forrestfire]

That's one of the ways, anyway. The savage progressions allow dragons to grow with levels and not with age. How it's explained is up to the group, but it's a possibility within the rules.

[torrasque666]

That's one of the ways, anyway. The savage progressions allow dragons to grow with levels and not with age. How it's explained is up to the group, but it's a possibility within the rules.
Where were savage progressions for dragons published? I'm not seeing them in the draconomicon, or the archives.

[Forrestfire]

Dragon Magazines #320 (metallics) and #332 (chromatics).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Your DM is right. You can't normally play a dragon without some hefty level adjustment (LA), and that LA means you'll be officially equal to a 20th-level character as a juvenile white dragon. Unless your campaign goes far into epic levels, you'll never reach adult age.

If you want to play a spellcasting dragon, your best bet is to be a wyrmling dragon with levels in sorcerer. White dragons have 3 racial hit dice and 2 level adjustment, which is the lowest total you'll find amongst MM1 dragons, but they have big intelligence and charisma penalties. Better choices are the wyrmling brass dragon, with 4 RHD and 2 LA, and the wyrmling copper dragon, with 5 RHD and 2 LA. The brass wyrmling has +0 to all mental stats, the copper has +2 to all. The white has -4 to intelligence and charisma, but not wisdom, so it'd still make a good cleric or druid.

You can use the Unearthed Arcana variant rule to reduce level adjustments - see page 18. If you're allowed to do that, you can get some very nice builds.

For example, take a wyrmling brass dragon 4/sorcerer 2/abjurant champion 4/incantatrix 10, 2 LA bought off (at levels 6 and 9). You have 14 base attack bonus and 16th-level sorcerer casting, you're tiny-sized (+2 to AC, +2 to hit, +8 to hide) with 3 natural armour - that's 15 AC to start with. You have a fly speed of 150' (average), a burrow speed of 30', and your base land speed is 60', so you're a fast sorcerer with lots of options. You can hide behind a party member, pretend to be a pet or familar, then attack with magic from stealth. You can dig into the ground by the roadside, then bite to deliver touch spells when people walk by. You can throw greater arcane fusion with orbs of acid inside almost as well as a full caster.

Another, more stealthy option is wyrmling brass dragon 4/scout 1/sorcerer 1/unseen seer 10/incantatrix 4. You'll get some nice damage out of your movement speed, you're still casting as a sorcerer 15, and with Versatile Spellcaster you can still hit the damage cap on orbs and telekinesis barrages.

[torrasque666]

Dragon Magazines #320 (metallics) and #332 (chromatics).
Thank you. Still though, which is more likely? That a member of the table will have the specific issue of a barely first party magazine, or that someone will have the quintessential book on dragons if they're looking to play a dragon?

Adding these as another reason I dislike dragon magazine material.

[ShurikVch]

Well, if you want to be PC about it the correct term is Caucasian dragon. :smallamused: There are no dragons in Caucasus Mountains

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Mountains)

[Deadline]

:smallamused: There are no dragons in Caucasus Mountains

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Mountains)

*sigh* Google Image Search, you have failed me for the last time ...

[Segev]

Given that your DM is displeased with your build to some degree, you might talk to him about rebuilding.

Honestly, as an ECL 7 white dragon wyrmling with 2 rogue levels, there's no way you're overpowered unless the party is really, REALLY underpowered. (Or the party isn't level 7, in which case any power discrepancy is due to the fact that you're higher ECL than the rest of them. Even then, if they're somewhere close - say level 5, maybe even as low as level 4 - you aren't really THAT much stronger. You just have unusual abilities that may be surprising the DM.)

Note that Blindsense does require line of effect. You don't have X-ray senses, so couldn't "see" a character on the other side of a wall. Also, there's a feat called (I think) Darkhunter in Lords of Madness which explicitly allows those with it to use Hide and Move Silently against Blindsense and other special senses which normally would bypass those skills. Your DM may want to give some (not all) of his stealthy types that.

[Nanolicious]

Alright so I'll explain my character then respond to post. I have already started in a group that is lvl 7. I chose to be a rogue because I have the ability to fly and perform sneak attacks using a shortbow within 30ft. I chose 2 levels in rogue and as a white dragon already had ECL of 5 making a total of 7 now. The class ideas you guys are bringing up are a little too advanced for me or I am just not following well, because I am a noob at DnD. They do sound awesome though.
@ExLibrisMortis I was really hoping to get up to the 9th level spellcaster possible as a fully grown dragon without having to be a class that casts spells, because larger dragons just learn arcane spells as they grow. My main focus was being a rogue and the spells would've been a huge bonus. Your breakdown of the Brass dragon has me confused. What does 2 LA bought off at 6 and 9 mean? Are you referring to the dragon growth chart?
@Forrestfire This helps me tremendously because my DM and I were trying to figure out how to progress my dragon without having to wait a year before I could grab another level.
@torrasque666 I read that differently. I read that you can only level up the dragon as you age and a forced into putting levels that would otherwise go to paladin into the dragon age. You simply don't gain a dragon level by living a year but after one year you are forced to use the next level up to level up the dragon as if it was a class.

To further the discussion and maybe find a resolution does anyone have material that goes over leveling into epic (21+) that would create the possibility of being a larger dragon even if the LA is - past a certain point?

@Red Fel I am confused about the second article. I think I will contact the creator of it for clarity but thank you for it.

[Segev]

I'll try to help more a little later, but first of all, a Great Wyrm White Dragon only casts as a 13th level sorcerer. You'll never, based on white dragon progression alone, cast 9th level spells. 6th is the most a 13th level sorcerer can do. You'd need at least 5 levels of sorcerer to get even one 9th level spell known, even as a great wyrm.

[Deadline]

Alright so I'll explain my character then respond to post. I have already started in a group that is lvl 7. I chose to be a rogue because I have the ability to fly and perform sneak attacks using a shortbow within 30ft.

Umm, aren't Dragons flying quadrupeds? How are you shooting a bow? Mouthpick weapon or somesuch?


To further the discussion and maybe find a resolution does anyone have material that goes over leveling into epic (21+) that would create the possibility of being a larger dragon even if the LA is - past a certain point?

Not without your DM house ruling up some LA to go along with the later age categories (and the LA will naturally get bigger for each age category).

[ExLibrisMortis]

@ExLibrisMortis I was really hoping to get up to the 9th level spellcaster possible as a fully grown dragon without having to be a class that casts spells, because larger dragons just learn arcane spells as they grow. My main focus was being a rogue and the spells would've been a huge bonus. Your breakdown of the Brass dragon has me confused. What does 2 LA bought off at 6 and 9 mean? Are you referring to the dragon growth chart?
You won't be able to get 9th-level spells as a fully grown white dragon. White dragons are lousy spellcasters, they have up to 6th level spells at great wyrm age. At that point, you have 36 HD, and probably some LA, for ECL 40-45 or so. Only red dragons and metallic dragons reach 9th-level spells by aging, and then only at great wyrm age, with very high HD (33 + wyrmling HD, in fact).

Wyrmling white dragons are also bad as rogues. They have a -4 penalty to intelligence, which costs you 2 skill points per level.

If you want to be a dragon rogue with spells, wyrmling brass/copper dragon plus either arcane trickster or unseen seer is the way to go. Coppers have 1 RHD more, lower speeds (and no burrow), but also +2 to all mental ability scores and hide as a class skill. I'd slightly prefer brass, to take advantage of the extra level (= extra casting).

Unseen seer is a prestige class from Complete Mage. It increases sneak attack/skirmish damage by 4d6 over 10 levels, arcane spellcasting at every level, and has 6 skill points per level. You only need first-level spells to get in, so you'll only have to be a not-rogue for one level. You can also pick up some useful spells through the class' learning feature, including things to boost your sneak attack from the assassin and ranger spell lists. Have a look here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/4165926) for more ideas.

Arcane trickster is in the Dungeon Master's Guide. It requires 2d6 sneak attack to get in, which means three levels of rogue (three levels you're not getting spells) or two feats, and third-level spells, which is five levels you're not getting rogue skills or sneak attack, or one level and some feats. I wouldn't recommend it, it costs too many levels or feats to get in.

Try wyrmling brass 4/rogue 1/wizard 1/unseen seer 10 for starters, and see how that works out.

LA buyoff is a variant rule from Unearthed Arcana, page 18 - ask your DM if you can use it. It allows you to spend experience to lower your level adjustment. The rules dictate at which levels you can 'buy off' (reduce) your level adjustment by 1, based on how high your LA is. For LA +2, as for a wyrmling white, brass, or copper, you can buy the first adjustment at 6, and the second at 9 (counting only class levels, so that's effectively at level 11-13 and 14-16, depending on which dragon you pick).

The advantage of buying off your LA is that you keep the power (dragon abilities), but you don't count as a higher level when calculating XP gain (no level adjustment). A normal wyrmling white 3/rogue 1/wizard 1/unseen seer 7 is ECL 14, gaining xp as a 14th-level character. The same character, with LA bought off, has spent some XP (10.000 and 12.000, if I'm not mistaken), and now gains experience as a 12th-level character. You can beat the same monsters, but you get more XP for them, because you're a lower level. The 22k XP spent is earned back over time.


@Deadline: The LA will actually stop increasing at a certain point. Dragon spellcasting and SR are way behind their HD, and their breath weapon, spells and frightful presence all allow saves. If your LA is too high, the SR will become completely irrelevant (wait, it already was), the saves too easy to make, and their spells didn't have much chance to hit equal-HD creatures in the first place (which is why they mostly buff and shape the battlefield, of course).

[Ruethgar]

Dragon Magazine #332 page 37 has the white dragon class. It also adds the Hatchling age category which you can stall at indefinitely and would allow you to take 7 normal class levels in say sorcerer, bypassing the normally required 3HD and 2LA but removing most of the cool stuff like natural attacks, breath weapon and flight(though as a dragon you automatically qualify for Improved Dragon Wings at level one). Furthermore, as a dragon, you can take the Loredrake archetype and get a free two sorcerer levels of casting ability once you do start casting. If you do actually take the dragon class you can buyoff the LA as you go instead of waiting until 6th to buyoff the first level.

[Threadnaught]

Here's an idea, why not just start as Wyrmling, then take levels in Dragon?

[Urpriest]

Here's an idea, why not just start as Wyrmling, then take levels in Dragon?

Because you have to be old enough to do so, as detailed earlier in the thread, and most games don't last that long.

[BilltheCynic]

A juvenile White Dragon (the highest you can go pre-epic) only casts spells as a third level sorcerer. This is not good. At all.

If you are determined to be a spellcaster, I would suggest being a steel dragon (DoF 140) with the Loredrake Sovereign Archetype (DoE 31). Steel Dragon gets 1st level casting as a wyrmling (4 HD and +2 LA), Loredrake increases your caster level by +2 (but reduces your Dragon HD from D12 to D10) and sorcerer levels stack with your dragon levels to determine your caster level. If you use UA to buyoff your LA at levels 12 and 14, you can be casting as an 18th level sorcerer at level 20. Furthermore, you would have natural flight, alternate form as a supernatural ability unlimited times per day, poison resistance, and lots of other dragon goodies. Take the metamagic specialist ACF (PHB2 61) to replace your familiar (which is 4 lvls behind normal) for rapid metamagic 3+int modifiers per day. For super cheese, dip Mindbender (CA 54) for 1 level for 100 ft telepathy and pick up mindsight (LoM 136). You can now detect anyone with an int score within 100 ft of you, and unintelligent creatures can't get feats, so no Darkstalker for them which means you can easiliy detect them with Blindsense. And no, by RAW Mindblank does not block it. The only things that could possibly sneak up on you are unintelligent incorporeal creatures and someone with six levels of Illithid Slayer (XPH 146). Note that your GM will probably hate you for this, but it is an option.

Alternatively, you can be a Mercury Dragon wyrmling (3 HD and 2 LA, 200 ft perfect flight, tiny (DoF 139)) or the aformentioned Steel dragon wyrmling (4 HD and +2 LA, 150 ft average flight, small, Alternate form (DoF 140)) and take the Dragonfire Adept (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1101061) class. The DFA basically makes you even more dragonny, though instead of spells you get invocations (at will SLAs, but a very small list). I would ask your DM to replace the Dragontouched bonus feat with a Draconic, Breath, or Metabreath feat and let your Dragon HD stack with your DFA class levels to determine you breath weapon's strength. Grab the feat Entangling Exhalation (RoD 101) for a huge bonus to your breath ability. Don't forget to buy off the LA as quickly as possible. No casting, but you will certainly feel very dragonny, with lots of dragon abilities and a very strong breat weapon. I would take the Sovereign Archetype Wyrm of War DoE 31) for armor and weapon proficiencies and a bonus fighter or dragon feat per 4 HD (no, not racial HD, HD. Including your PC levels). As an added bonus, if you pick up the charm invocation you can dip once again dip Mindbender and pick up Mindsight (Mindbender advances breath weapon damage and Invocations, but NOT breath effects).

[Threadnaught]

Because you have to be old enough to do so, as detailed earlier in the thread, and most games don't last that long.

Read the first post and a couple afterward, then skipped to making a response.
Where is that rule?

[Urpriest]

Read the first post and a couple afterward, then skipped to making a response.
Where is that rule?

Draconomicon, where it describes how to play a dragon.

[Threadnaught]

Draconomicon, where it describes how to play a dragon.

I tried.

I cracked open that ******* Druid's Draconomicon and tried looking for the ruling, but I can't seem to find it.


It's in the Advancement and Aging rules on page 142, right?
All I see there are rules that, once the Dragon PC reaches a certain age, they must have the minimum amount of Dragon Levels.
I currently see nothing wrong with allowing Advancement by Hit Dice, under the fluff of this Dragon being a rather extraordinary specimen. Though this may change depending on Urpriest's watchful eye.

Can't be bothered to type out all the rules to point out why I think this, there's too much to type out here. If you know where the exact ruling is that disallows this (if indeed it exists), please pinpoint its location and show me what I'm looking for, I'd like to know unambiguously if something's a house rule.

[Extra Anchovies]

that ******* Druid's

I'm going off-topic, but I see you mention this every now and again. Care to explain?

[Urpriest]

I tried.

I cracked open that ******* Druid's Draconomicon and tried looking for the ruling, but I can't seem to find it.


It's in the Advancement and Aging rules on page 142, right?
All I see there are rules that, once the Dragon PC reaches a certain age, they must have the minimum amount of Dragon Levels.
I currently see nothing wrong with allowing Advancement by Hit Dice, under the fluff of this Dragon being a rather extraordinary specimen. Though this may change depending on Urpriest's watchful eye.

Can't be bothered to type out all the rules to point out why I think this, there's too much to type out here. If you know where the exact ruling is that disallows this (if indeed it exists), please pinpoint its location and show me what I'm looking for, I'd like to know unambiguously if something's a house rule.

Oh I see, I'd misunderstood what you are asking.

The reason you can't gain "Dragon levels" separate from the Draconomicon rules is because there isn't any other method for doing so. That is, the only thing that gives you more Dragon HD is the progression of mandatory Dragon HD you acquire while aging. There isn't a class table that can give you more HD (unless you're using the Dragon Magazine classes, which is another issue entirely). And you can't assume that HD advancement will just increase your ECL linearly, because higher-HD creatures are supposed to have lower LA for the same abilities as per the guidelines in Savage Species. Since there's no way to know how many HD a given amount of XP will buy you aside from the Draconomicon progression, there's no way to advance outside of that model.

[Threadnaught]

I'm going off-topic, but I see you mention this every now and again. Care to explain?

A player of mine is annoying to DM for, likes Druids and Dragons, is at the peak of annoyance when playing as a Druid, especially one with a Dragon themed name and Dragon Companion. When he's not being annoying, or stupid as he was when a character of his jumped off a cliff he knew would lead to a lethal fall, he is an excellent player.
I never know if he'll charge into a session like Gimli at Helm's Deep, or react to a simple wooden door like Eric.

Damn he's annoying.


Oh I see, I'd misunderstood what you are asking.

The reason you can't gain "Dragon levels" separate from the Draconomicon rules is because there isn't any other method for doing so. That is, the only thing that gives you more Dragon HD is the progression of mandatory Dragon HD you acquire while aging. There isn't a class table that can give you more HD (unless you're using the Dragon Magazine classes, which is another issue entirely). And you can't assume that HD advancement will just increase your ECL linearly, because higher-HD creatures are supposed to have lower LA for the same abilities as per the guidelines in Savage Species. Since there's no way to know how many HD a given amount of XP will buy you aside from the Draconomicon progression, there's no way to advance outside of that model.

Actually, there seems to be a point on all True Dragons' PC Progression tables, where the Dragons gain a level () without gaining a HD after every 3HD they gain.
I couldn't figure out a pattern for the actual Age, but the HD and LA seem to progress linearly in line with ECL. Up to ECL 20, like Base Classes.

[Urpriest]

Actually, there seems to be a point on all True Dragons' PC Progression tables, where the Dragons gain a level () without gaining a HD after every 3HD they gain.
I couldn't figure out a pattern for the actual Age, but the HD and LA seem to progress linearly in line with ECL. Up to ECL 20, like Base Classes.

That's because they're gaining new racial abilities, though. There's no way to know what the formula would be without gaining those.

[Shadowscale]

Don't mean to threadjack or anything, but I was actually curious as white dragons are my favorite dragons if it'd be possible in an actual typical game to play a white dragon wymling or very young and to not just be a liability the whole time. I think according to Draconomicon you have a pretty sizable level adjustment for both, I was wondering if you had any other complicated features to deal with other than pure LA, from what I gathered white dragons make excellent stealth based characters.

[Urpriest]

Don't mean to threadjack or anything, but I was actually curious as white dragons are my favorite dragons if it'd be possible in an actual typical game to play a white dragon wymling or very young and to not just be a liability the whole time. I think according to Draconomicon you have a pretty sizable level adjustment for both, I was wondering if you had any other complicated features to deal with other than pure LA, from what I gathered white dragons make excellent stealth based characters.

White Wyrmling isn't terrible...you get Tiny size (surprisingly useful), and three attacks...overall bad ability scores, but at least you're Tiny without a Str or Con penalty which is hard to find...fly speed is nice, and you get other good movement modes too. You could even eventually buy off the LA. It's not the best, but you could make it work. Very Young is already too many levels invested for not enough gain though.

[ZamielVanWeber]

White Wyrmling isn't terrible...you get Tiny size (surprisingly useful), and three attacks...overall bad ability scores, but at least you're Tiny without a Str or Con penalty which is hard to find...fly speed is nice, and you get other good movement modes too.

It is mostly overshadowed by the mercury wyrmling who has the same HD and LA, but dramatically better move, better statmods, and trades the near useless icewalking for protected sight. Loss of burrow is a little depressing at times.

[Shadowscale]

It is mostly overshadowed by the mercury wyrmling who has the same HD and LA, but dramatically better move, better statmods, and trades the near useless icewalking for protected sight. Loss of burrow is a little depressing at times.

Believe it or not I've found times where if I had ice-walking it'd of been quite helpful. Anyhow do tiny white dragons have a 5 foot reach unlike typical tiny creatures, I believe I remember reading such, I was thinking of building an arcane trickster with one.

[Urpriest]

Believe it or not I've found times where if I had ice-walking it'd of been quite helpful. Anyhow do tiny white dragons have a 5 foot reach unlike typical tiny creatures, I believe I remember reading such, I was thinking of building an arcane trickster with one.

Only with their Bite, and only if your DM is using the optional rules in Draconomicon that make Dragons' reach different with different natural attacks. Otherwise you'd have to move into the opponent's square.

[Shadowscale]

Only with their Bite, and only if your DM is using the optional rules in Draconomicon that make Dragons' reach different with different natural attacks. Otherwise you'd have to move into the opponent's square.

So if you were to play one is the type of character I'm thinking of building what you'd do, or would you of done something else?

[Urpriest]

So if you were to play one is the type of character I'm thinking of building what you'd do, or would you of done something else?

(By the way, I just checked, and the extra reach on the Bite is actually in the SRD, it didn't get introduced in Draconomicon, I had misremembered.)

I think it depends a bit on your starting level. At higher levels there are ways to not only avoid attacks of opportunity from moving into an opponent's space, but profit from enemies that try to do them. If you're familiar with the Other Killer Gnome you'll know what I'm talking about.

Before you can manage that, it's noticeably harder. I still think that melee is a better choice, and given the number of attacks you've got precision damage is probably the best option. I'm not sure I would make a traditional arcane trickster, though, since you're five levels behind on casting and your Int and Cha are pretty terrible. If you feel the need for casting something Wis-based might work better, like Ardent. Otherwise, Swordsage would probably fit pretty well.

[Segev]

I actually have a white wyrmling using a version of the DFA build in a game; he's a cohort, but I might retry him as a full on PC one day.

The DM agreed to let me trade his innate cold breath for +1d6 damage on his class-granted cold breath, and to let me customize a grease invocation to have, instead, an ice slick. Which he can use for ice-walking while fouling the ground for foes. (The invocation is fluffed as being breathed out, even though it's not technically a breath weapon.)