The Helpful Bard

[JNAProductions]

Hey, so I'm going to be playing D&D 3.5 pretty soon, and I want to build a support character. The general idea is a Vow of Poverty/Vow of Peace Bard (who also carries a whip for tripping).

Starting at level 1.

So, Playground-how do I build this thing?

Thanks in advance for help.

[JNAProductions]

Current build thoughts:

Human (for bonus feat)

Sacred Vow

Vow of Poverty

Vow of Nonviolence

This gets all my core feats in place at level 1.

[AvatarVecna]

1. I take it you're looking for optimal build advice?

2. What's your starting level?

3. What level do you expect to get to with this?

4. Are you using LA buyoff? What about gestalt/tristalt?

5. Are you open to variants and PrCs?

[JNAProductions]

1. I take it you're looking for optimal build advice?

2. What's your starting level?

3. What level do you expect to get to with this?

4. Are you using LA buyoff? What about gestalt/tristalt?

5. Are you open to variants and PrCs?

1: Optimal for support. I don't care about doing it myself, but helping others, knowledge checks, stuff like that? I want to be all over that.

2: Level 1.

3: Not actually sure yet. I'd rather not have to wait too long for the build to come online/

4: No, no, no.

5: I like the bard's flavor. But yes, so long as the flavor is fun.

[Douglas]

Well, the standard Bard-specific way to do support is to give absurdly huge bonuses to everybody else's damage output. The fact that the actual damage delivery is done by someone else might let that technically not violate the letter of Vow of Peace (though even that I'm not sure of), but I'm pretty sure it does violate the spirit of the Vow.

Have you talked with your DM and the rest of the party about this? Both with regard to what Vow of Peace means for the rest of the party's behavior and whether dealing damage indirectly via buffs is compatible with it?

[JNAProductions]

I've not. Ergh... (Note: Not sure if the Dragonfire chain of feats is allowed for that massive damage stacking.)

Is there another way to fill a good support role? Everyone else is playing beatsticks, so I need to fill the void.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, here's the basic build idea:

Venerable (Insert Race Here) Divine Bard 4/War Weaver 5/Apostle of Peace 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9

Use some method of casting spells 1 level higher than normal (Versatile Spellcaster+Arcane Disciple), and you can enter War Weaver at level 5. War Weaver 5, among other things, lets you spread single target buffs across a number of people. Apostle of Peace and Divine Bard are both phenomenal buffers, Sublime Chord casts off of the Bard and Sorcerer/Wizard list, Mystic Theurge will give you double 9s by 19th level from you'll mostly avoid being MAD as long as you don't care about your Bard bonus spells or save DCs.

Now here's how you sell it: you're an old-timer who's seen their fair share of combat, and doesn't want to be a violent adventurer. But they still want to help out the younger generation, and they have a lot of magic that suits itself well to aiding others, so they specialize in buffing. You don't mix it up in combat yourself much; you prefer using your skills to avoid combat (social skills, knowledge skills, etc.) and using your spells to protect your allies (all Wis-based). Your saves are pretty decent, especially your virtually indomitable Will. You are, in short, the ultimate support caster: a skills expert with theurge casting who loves nothing more than helping from the sidelines.

Sound interesting?

[Douglas]

No matter what sort of role you plan to fill in the party, I strongly recommend consulting with the DM and the other players before bringing a Vow of Nonviolence/Peace character to the game. The requirements of those Vows indirectly affect the whole party, not just you, and are directly opposed to how the game is normally played. Most groups will react poorly to such a character being introduced without prior agreement.

[JNAProductions]

Very. What books are these various classes from, so I can look them up myself?

I'm pretty new to 3.5.

That being said, I am liking the way you spin it. Gonna start work on some backstory relating to this idea.

Edit: I will talk it over with them. With that in mind, could you guys help me build two variants-one with Vow of Peace and one without?

I'd hate to ruin someone else's fun.

Edit 2 (Electric Boogaloo): Also, thanks again for the help! Like I said above, new to 3.5, so I need help to make concepts come to life.

[AvatarVecna]

No matter what sort of role you plan to fill in the party, I strongly recommend consulting with the DM and the other players before bringing a Vow of Nonviolence/Peace character to the game. The requirements of those Vows indirectly affect the whole party, not just you, and are directly opposed to how the game is normally played. Most groups will react poorly to such a character being introduced without prior agreement.

Seconding this. At the wrong table, this is even worse than the worst kind of Paladin: at least that Paladin was okay with killing demons. Of course, even at the right table (one willing to put up with this kind of stuff), you should try to avoid playing a Stupid Good character; not everyone is as devoted to nonviolence as you, and you shouldn't try to make them. Be ready for when some of the negative consequences bite you in the butt, however hard that bite may end up being. Talk to your DM and fellow party members about this first.

[JNAProductions]

Understood. Like I said above-I don't want to ruin anyone's fun, so I while he'll be a peaceful man no matter what, I am perfectly willing to let go of Vow of Peace/Nonviolence if the party disagrees with me having it.

[AvatarVecna]

Very. What books are these various classes from, so I can look them up myself?

I'm pretty new to 3.5.

That being said, I am liking the way you spin it. Gonna start work on some backstory relating to this idea.

Edit: I will talk it over with them. With that in mind, could you guys help me build two variants-one with Vow of Peace and one without?

I'd hate to ruin someone else's fun.

Edit 2 (Electric Boogaloo): Also, thanks again for the help! Like I said above, new to 3.5, so I need help to make concepts come to life.

Divine Bard is an alternate Bard presented in Unearthed Arcana that uses Wisdom and Charisma for various parts of the casting process. It's slightly less MAD to combine Divine Bard with Apostle of Peace than to combine a normal Bard with it.

Apostle of Peace is a Prestige Class from the same book that Vow of Poverty/Peace are from (Book of Exalted Deeds), and requires both of them. It's basically "Saint, the PrC", as opposed to "Saint, the template" (which is also in the same book). It grants fast divine casting from limited list (designed with buffing, healing, and nonlethal combat in mind).

War Weaver is from Heroes of Battle and specializes in making low-level (up to your class level) single-target buffs affect a sizeable group.

Sublime Chord is a PrC from Complete Arcane that is a Bard who focuses on their casting to the detriment of their musical ability.

Mystic Theurge is a PrC from the Dungeon Master's Guide that combines Arcane and Divine casting.



If you want a non-Vow of Peace build, Venerable (any race) Bard 5/War Weaver 5/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9 is pretty good, too. You still get 9th level Arcane, still get War Weaver 5, and you get Virtuoso music on top of that.

Virtuoso is a PrC from Complete Adventurer that advances your spellcasting and your musical abilities. it's pretty commonly employed in the manner I've used it here (advancing your Sublime Chord casting without losing your Bardic performance too much).

[Extra Anchovies]

First, get rid of VoP, VoN, and Sacred Vow. They're almost never worth it. If you want vows of peace and poverty, keep them to roleplaying restrictions. Frees up your feats for something, I don't know, useful? :smalltongue:

Poverty:
Keep only the wealth you need to continue spreading good in the world. There isn't much to gain from destroying magic items, so they have to end up somewhere, and it might as well be in the hands of someone like yourself who can use them well.
You don't actually "own" any of your possessions. Your god (or your cause) does. If someone comes along who serves the same god/cause and needs the items, hand them over.

Peace:
Don't ever shed the blood of another creature or bring it to harm by your own direct actions. Helping others strike down evildoers is fine, because you aren't dirtying your own hands.

Second, optimize the hell out of Inspire Courage. Have a handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830) and a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221350-Optimizing-Inspire-Courage).

[JNAProductions]

How do I get the Arcane spells needed to become a War Weaver? Divine Bard casts Divine spells.

[Extra Anchovies]

How do I get the Arcane spells needed to become a War Weaver? Divine Bard casts Divine spells.

Southern Magician from Races of Faerun should work. It's regional, though.

[AvatarVecna]

How do I get the Arcane spells needed to become a War Weaver? Divine Bard casts Divine spells.

Uh...you don't, because I screwed that up. Guess you need to use regular Bard. And yeah, VoPoverty is infamously terribl for optimization. My second build is better for that kind of thing.

[JNAProductions]

Honestly, I've always wanted to try Vow of Poverty. Just once. To know what it's like. So Imma stick with the first build (pending approval from other players on Vow of Peace).

Venerable Human Bard 4/War Weaver 5/Apostle of Peace 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9

Level 1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence

Not sure where to put my skills and what spells to get, though.

[The Vagabond]

If you can be dissuaded from taking Vow of Peace, I would, in terms of recommending how to play, recommend the (Fairly Classic) Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8, advancing Sublime Chord via virtuoso 8. Very Charisma focused, at any rate.

Sublime Chord will grant you a wide array of Sorcerer spells to cast, which you should spend mostly on battlefield control spells, or buffing spells for your party. You shouldn't go around trying to ensure everyone is dead.

Feat selections? Ask if Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) are allowed. If so, and if you are not going to go into battle, Murkey eyed, and if you are, go with Vulnerable. If the book Dragon Magic is available, take two flaws (Probably the above listed), to nab Dragontouched (Dragon Magic page 18) and Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon magic page 17). Or, if you're willing to drop the bonus skill point per level from being Human, go Silverbrow human (Dragon Magic page 6), and just take Dragonfire Inspiration. Dragonfire Inspiration changes the bonus you grant from +X to attack and damage to +Xd6 fire damage. Alternatively, use your first level feat, if you are using flaws or can convince the DM to ignore the Sorcerer prerequisite, nab Draconic Heritage (Pyroclastic) (Races of the Dragon pg 102) to be able to change the type, at will, between Sonic and Fire damage.

If you are in Ebberon, you can trade some Bardic Music for bonus feats from a small list. If so, ask if you have to meet the prerequisites. Among this list is Song of the Heart ( Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 60), which boosts all Numeric effects of Bardic Performances by one. Inspire Compatance is not that great, so you can replace that with Song of the Heart to bolster your performance.

Then, spells! Next level, you should DEFIANTLY take Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium, pg 124), a level one bard spell which boosts your Inspire Courage by one. At level 7, if you get that far and took Draconic Heritage (Pyroclastic), you should take Creaking Cacophony, which is a No save level 3 bard spell which grants vulnerability to sonic damage to creatures.

Since you are going to be Exalted anyway, Words of Creation is a feat that DOUBLES the effect of your Bardic Music in exchange for dealing Nonleathal damage to yourself. (Book of Exalted Deeds 48) So becoming a Necropalatin, if possible, could be useful.

Secondly, if you decide to forgo Vow of Poverty, as you level try to grab these items:

Badge of Valor (1400G, Magic Item Compendium 208): +1 to Inspire Courage.
Vest of Legends (16,000G, Dungeon Master's Guide II 272): +4 to your bard level for your bardic music effects.
Masterwork Lute [String Instruments] (Complete Adventurer 126): Grants a +1 bonus to your bard level for Bardic Performances.
If 3.0 materials are allowed, see if your DM has access to Song and Silence, it possesses the almighty Alphorn (Song and Silence 42). Inspire Courage, Greatness, and Countersong to folks for 1d10 MILES.

Now, alternate class features:
I would recomend you trade Countersong for spellbreaker song (Complete Mage pg 35), and Bardic Knowledge for either Bardic Knack (Player handbook 2, p 35) (If you decide to go full bard), or Loresong (If only half-bard). (Dungonscape, page 8)

[JNAProductions]

Necropalatin?

[Extra Anchovies]

Necropalatin?

Necropolitan (Libris Mortis) is an LA +0 or +1 (depending on who you ask) template that makes you an undead without changing much else. Undead are immune to nonlethal so you get the Words of Power bonus at no cost.

[JNAProductions]

Definitely something to discuss with my DM. But combined with Words of Power... Yes. I like.

[AvatarVecna]

Technically speaking, the template in question has an XP cost that scales with level (sort of); while it technically doesn't increase your LA (which would make it an LA +0 template), it drains your XP down to at least one level lower, making it function very similarly to an LA +1 template. It makes a lot more sense when you see it in action, though.

[JNAProductions]

So can I get it at level 1? Reading the description in Libris Mortis, it kinda doesn't look that way.

Although it'd be pretty easy to work into the backstory. An old adventurer, cursed by a tomb he robbed, now living a good few decades past when he should be dead but still kicking and deciding to get off his (literally) bony butt and help some youngsters out.

[AvatarVecna]

So can I get it at level 1? Reading the description in Libris Mortis, it kinda doesn't look that way.

Although it'd be pretty easy to work into the backstory. An old adventurer, cursed by a tomb he robbed, now living a good few decades past when he should be dead but still kicking and deciding to get off his (literally) bony butt and help some youngsters out.

Sorry, it doesn't work out mechanically. You could talk with your DM about it, but Necropolitan is already a really optimal template as it is (spend some pittance of XP, get all the benefits of being undead without getting any of the drawbacks); maybe if you had a couple more levels under your belt, it would be a good idea, but at first level? That's exactly the kind of thing I'd be wary about allowing.

Also, because it's an acquired template, rather than one you're born with, you have to have it make sense for your character to both choose to be an undead abomination...and an Exalted Good character. Speaking of...

Keep in mind that, to keep your Exalted feats (including your vows), you need to remain Exalted Good. It's not an actual alignment, but it's basically "gooder than good". It's a prime example of a roleplaying aspect that you need to talk to your DM about before you go through with it; if your DM has very particular ideas of what is and is not Good, and is a stickler about alignments, this might not be a good idea.

[torrasque666]

So can I get it at level 1? Reading the description in Libris Mortis, it kinda doesn't look that way.Don't do this. This kills the bard.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AvatarVecna
Use some method of casting spells 1 level higher than normal (Versatile Spellcaster+Arcane Disciple)….


Originally Posted by Extra Anchovies
Southern Magician from Races of Faerun should work. It's regional, though.

These should also be discussed with your DM for approval before you build your character around them.

Here in the Playground, these are standard tricks and their interpretation is taken for granted, but not every DM will read them the way that Playgrounders like to. Just be sure your DM is on board with this approach before you dive into the build, and be prepared to (respectfully) accept a different ruling on how they might work.

[AvatarVecna]

These should also be discussed with your DM for approval before you build your character around them.

Here in the Playground, these are standard tricks and their interpretation is taken for granted, but not every DM will read them the way that Playgrounders like to. Just be sure your DM is on board with this approach before you dive into the build, and be prepared to (respectfully) accept a different ruling on how they might work.

Oh yeah. I mean, as far as stuff around here goes, early entry tricks are pretty mid-level optimization, but that just means it's one of the lowest-level optimization tricks that's likely to set off alarms in your DM's head. The last thing you want it to get to 5th level, announce you're taking a PrC level, and have the DM veto it, since most of the methods that get you in early aren't extremely powerful beyond letting you enter PrCs early.

EDIT: Plus, to be perfectly honest, War Weaver 5 is just icing on the cake when the rest of the build is giving you double 9s focused on buffing and support: sure, it's appreciated, but it's hardly the sole reason for everything being awesome.

[Yael]

Well, obviously to be helpful you must ride a post-apocalyptic war-modified car and play guitar as your crew is in a pursuit, and must not rest ultil the task is done. Remember to have your guitar to be a flamethrower and rock hard almost every second of your life.

Oh, wrong setting.

There's a spell in SC I think that gives a bonus to your bardic music, I think it's worth the try at early levels.

This post, blue means a mix between sarcasm and a reference.

[Socratov]

As a lover of bards everywhere I kind of want to chip in (and am surprised I haven't seen Talya running around yet).

First off: unless you are a druid, Vow of Poverty is never, ever, worth it. If you want to be useful as a Bard, especially supporting, you want to have the items and stuff others can't afford to carry. So yeah, you don't want poverty, you just want to spendyour gold a little more thoughtfully.

vow of peace can be worth it, but could screw up the party in a big way, especially when lugging around a party of beatsticks, if your vow inhibits them from doing combat, they have just lost about the only purpose they can come up with. Tread carefully. Talk to your DM about this, or suffer.

Now, the ultimate 5th wheel that every party absolutely wants to take around:

Human Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9

Take the ACF's: Healing Hymn (bardic music now helps supercharge healing, traded in for Fascination) and Bardic Knack (instead of bardic knowledge, get all skills). Switch out suggestion for Song of the Heart.

Take all the prerequisites and get Lingering Song, Words of Creation

Now, you can either take DFI, or not. either way, go for a Masterwork Horn for that snazzy to-hit bonus, and try talking with your DM to be able to upgrade it. If you can't enjoy squeezing everything out of the little bonuses from inspirational boost etc.

Now for DFI the bonus to to-hit defines the number of d6's you get. If you don't get DFI, it means all your beatstick companions can powerattack away happily and still hit.

Even if you have DFI, you can first do the to-hit trick, and then perform again (thanks to lingering song) to give the DFI bonus for, to quote Phreak from Riot games, TONS ERF DERMERGE! (What with power attack, stormtrooper and the added effect of dfi).

meanwhile you get the spells to just about trivialise every other encounter by casting spells on the Wiz/Sorc list. You can summon for trapseekers, charm your way through courts (besides, bluff and glibness anyone?), and get the mass buffs like mass bull's strength, mass bite of the wereX, etc. and other stuff.

Now, you ask, why not get the bardic music that boosts arcane you ask? Well, if all you've got is a party of beatsticks, you don't need that, you want as much bard as possible to get those bonsues to to-hit on inspire courage. That is sexy.

Don't forget, bards get the heling line of spells on his list, and with Healing Hymn you can massivley boost the casterlevel of healing spells, for TONS ERF HEALING. and if you have any bardic music attempts left, at the end of the day you can spend one to make 1 night of rest count as 24 hours of attended bedrest in terms of healing. isn't that snazzy?

also, regarding bardic knack, get it, take jack of all trades (to count as at least half a rank in every skill) and be semi proficient in everything. spend the skillpoints at stuff you want. take a look at skilltricks (liek the social ones like second impression), and the knowledge skills and social skills.

so, to loosely paraphrase David Duchovny in his role as Hank Moody: "Get out there and rock out with your [bleep] out!"

[Rubik]

For the record, if you do take Vow of Poverty, you cannot use a whip, despite it being a piece of leather rope, since it's not a simple weapon.

[JNAProductions]

That is all kinds of BS. It's a length of leather! All it is is a bit of dead cow!

And I'm rather hesitant to take Dragonfire Inspiration-there's a line between optimized and game-breaking, and I feel like DFI crosses that.

[Rubik]

That is all kinds of BS. It's a length of leather! All it is is a bit of dead cow!There's lots of BS involved with the various vows -- mostly the ones you were wanting at the beginning of the thread.

VoP, for instance, disallows looking at paintings, reading books, opening doors, taking shelter in a building, or standing on a rug, since all of those are using items not on the (ridiculously short) list of items you're allowed to use.


And I'm rather hesitant to take Dragonfire Inspiration-there's a line between optimized and game-breaking, and I feel like DFI crosses that.That's a REALLY low level piece of optimization, just so you know.

[JNAProductions]

For +12d6 damage? That's low-op? Good god, man, what kind of mad, mad place is 3.5?

With that in mind, what book do I find the DFI chain in?

[Flickerdart]

For +12d6 damage? That's low-op? Good god, man, what kind of mad, mad place is 3.5?

With that in mind, what book do I find the DFI chain in?
12d6 is only 42 points of damage on average.

[AvatarVecna]

For +12d6 damage? That's low-op? Good god, man, what kind of mad, mad place is 3.5?

With that in mind, what book do I find the DFI chain in?

It's a powerful ability, but it's only useful when the solution to your problem is hitting the problem in the face. If that's not the answer, it can't help, where some other bardic musics can help in both situations. An ubercharger who deals 5-figure DPR is much less powerful and useful than a Wizard 10 with a versatile and powerful array of spells going up to level 5.

EDIT: So yeah, damage is painfully easy to optimize, to the point that 12d6 is barely even icing on the cake in the right party. Of course, if your party of brutes wasn't very optimized in that regard, +12d6 will be rather helpful for them.

[Rubik]

For +12d6 damage? That's low-op? Good god, man, what kind of mad, mad place is 3.5?At level 20? That's only +42 damage, on average. A single-classed fighter wielding a greatsword gains that much with Power Attack, which isn't reduced by energy resistances and immunities. Yes, DFI is given to all your allies, but most groups only have a couple of characters who benefit, since most caster-types don't go out of their way to hit things with sticks.


With that in mind, what book do I find the DFI chain in?Dragon Magic.

[AvatarVecna]

At level 20? That's only +42 damage, on average. A single-classed fighter wielding a greatsword gains that much with Power Attack, which isn't reduced by energy resistances and immunities. Yes, DFI is given to all your allies, but most groups only have a couple of characters who benefit, since most caster-types don't go out of their way to hit things with sticks.

Dragon Magic.

I think he mentioned somewhere upthread that he had a party of beatsticks. Also, while +42 to average damage doesn't sound like a lot for the stuff we see around here, it can be plenty powerful in a lower-op game at the high levels (which is why Mr. Bard here will turn it into a cakewalk by buffing everyone).

[JNAProductions]

How do I get the dragonblooded subtype?

Edit: Also, which book is Lingering Music found in?

And what book is ACF?

[Rubik]

How do I get the dragonblooded subtype?By being a kobold, lizardfolk, or similar, or by taking the dragonborn template, from Races of the Dragon.


Edit: Also, which book is Lingering Music found in?Lingering Song is from Complete Adventurer, if that's what you're talking about.

[edit]


And what book is ACF?"ACF" stands for "Alternative Class Feature." A list of which can be found here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284

[JNAProductions]

Thank you. Yes, that is what I meant.

[torrasque666]

And what book is ACF?
ACF stands for Alternate Class Feature.
Healing Hymn is found in the Complete Champion, page 47.
Bardic Knack is found in Player's Handbook 2, page 35.

[JNAProductions]

Okay, so I'm thinking Silverbrow (will ask if it has to be silver) Human Bard taking Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence, and Vow of Poverty at level 1.

Level 2-Vow of Peace

Level 3-Dragonfire Inspiration

Level 4-Nymph's Kiss

Level 6-Words of Creation, and I'm not sure what else.

I'm not sure what level this is going to go to, so what classes are best for early level play?

[Troacctid]

If you're taking Vow of Poverty, I'd consider the Unearthed Arcana variant that trades in some of your bardic music for an animal companion, to "unlock" Exalted Companion as a bonus feat option. An animal companion can grapple, trip, flank, and tank hits from the bad guys while you buff the party with spells. It also makes you much stronger at level 1. It does preclude Dragonfire Inspiration, though, so there's definitely a tradeoff.

Nymph's Kiss is best if you take it as early as possible. I'd pick it up at level 1 or 2. You can delay Vow of Peace a little bit.

Obtain Familiar is a great feat on a Bard and an essential feat on a VoP Bard. Celestial Familiar is available as an exalted feat and it unlocks some of the best familiar options in the game: namely, coure eladrin and lantern archon, though mustevals aren't too shabby either. Personally, I would be Lawful Good for the lantern archon--the at-will Aid is a very potent support tool, and the at-will Greater Teleport is kind of absurd. Plus there's the aura of menace and magic circle to provide passive bonuses, which is nice. (Yes, Bards aren't supposed to be Lawful, but that restriction is stupid. You're taking like four sacred vows! That's pretty Lawful. Talk to your DM. Maybe prestige out of Bard so you don't have to care.)

[Hiro Quester]

Again, the vow of Poverty is gong to really mess up a bard.

Just don't. Role-play it. But the poverty feat will seriously hamper the things that make a bard great. You need gear.

Most of the ways to optimize a bard is by getting gear that augments your music, from masterwork musical instruments, badge of valor, etc.

Also wands. Bard can keep UMD maximized to be able to cast other classes spells from wands and rune staves. So wands of cure spells, shield spell, mage armor, barkskin, etc. VoP means you can never use a wand.

And armor. VoP as a druid gives alternate methods of getting decent AC. But a bard unarmored is very very squishy. Your dex will only get you so far. VoP doesn't add enough.

Few of the benefits of vow of poverty benefit a bard. Especially if you are not going to be directly damaging things, either. The bonuses to your melee damage, are wasted.

Role-play the bard as neutral good, but ultra good. Deeply concerned with spreading the message about the injustices done to the poor and oppressed. Be a political activist troubadour. Give generously to the poor and oppressed.

But as a bard, to do your inspiring job well, you need bardic gear.


But also, a bard/war weaver/sublime chord can be a really effective buffer. The war weaver enables you to having your whole party suddenly be flying, invisible, + strong, +AC, etc. in the first round of combat. The bard can then sing and grant bonuses to hit and damage. the sublime chord (begins at 10 level) gets you access to higher level spells.


Either way, make sure you take Melodic Casting feat (enables you to cast spells while singing, and enables you to dump concentration and make perform checks instead for those checks to cast while threatened).

Also learn the spell Harmonize, which enables your bardic music to begin as a move action. That way you can sing inspire courage and cast haste in the first round of combat.

[AvatarVecna]

-snip-

Considering how previous attempts to convince the OP of this have gone, I'm fairly certain you're barking up the wrong tree. For some people (myself included), VoP is one of those things that has to be experienced to be truly understood. The OP has mentioned that they want to run a VoP build at least once, and as far as VoP builds go, a master buffer in a party of beatsticks isn't the worst you can do.

[JNAProductions]

Part of it is also simplicity. I do sort of want to limit myself to making the hard choices at level ups, with help from the forums, since I'm new to 3.5. I'm already drawing from half a dozen different books-magic items adds another layer of complexity.

I am okay with imperfect optimization. Plus (as I say), bad decisions make good stories.

[Socratov]

One word, if you don't want to get DFI, then don't go for silverbrow human, if you do, there is no better way to do it.


the build (including feats) I suggested woudl be:

Silverbrow Human Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9 (this time advancing Sublime Chord casting)
(abilities: Cha>Int>Dex/Con>Wis>Str --> be sure to have one ofyour beatsticks to perform meatshield duties)

ACFs:

Bardic Knack (lose Bardic Knowledge)
Healing Hymn (lose Fascination)
Song of the heart (lose suggestion)

Skills:

At lvl 9 (to enter Virtuoso) make sure you end up with at least:

Diplomacy 4 ranks
Intimidate 4 ranks
Perform(wind instrument) 10

At lvl 10 (to enter Sublime Chord) make sure you end with at least:
Knowledge Arcana 13 ranks
Listen 13 ranks
Perform(wind instrument) 10 ranks
Proffession Astrologer 6 ranks
Spellcraft 6 ranks

put one point in untrained skills after you maximised Perform(Wind Instrument), Spellcraft, Concentrate, Diplomacy, Bluff, UMD, Intimidate, Sense Motive (seriously underestimated skill) and try to get all of them synergies.

Get at least 5 on balance so Grease and unstable terrain don't matter to you as much. Between your class skillpoints, intelligence and Nymph's kiss you should do well enough in skillpoints to have them to spare. As a bonus you can afford to let some rare used skills to lag behind (due to Bardic Knack), and if you have spare skillpoints, dump them all into Knowledges.

Feats:

Human: Nymph's Kiss
1st: DFI
3rd: Lingering Song
6th: Words of Creation
9th: Lyric Spell
12th: Extend Spell
15th: Heighten Spell
18th: Metamagic Spell

The open feats you can fill depending on what you want to do. With a party of beatsticks that's not very effective. What could be very effective is to go for a caster build with feats like metamagic feats (Heighten and extend come to mind), with Lyric Spell, Metamagic song and Extra music. These feats make sure you can exchange bardic music attempts for spells and metamagic. If you get to take flaws you might want to look at feats like Jack of all trades (else you need to invest 1 skillpoint of your many and numerous skillpoints in every trained only skill) and/or melodic casting (you can afoord to pick up concentrate and need it anyway for the alter feats, but if you don't need to sink anymore resources into it you can just use a perform check anyway which shoudl be a lot stronger with your high Cha and masterwork instrument). If you don't get to use DFI (becuase your DM understands how fantastically awesome it is), be regular human, and exchange the feat for melodic casting.

Then you want a masterwork horn (costs a couple of hundred gold, but it's fantastic), hang it around your neck with a chain and pretend to be Boromir (minus the tendency to die, that is).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Hiro Quester
Just don't. Role-play it. But the poverty feat will seriously hamper the things that make a bard great. You need gear.

The OP has said repeatedly that he wants Vow of Poverty. Telling him "just don't" isn't remotely helpful. His expectations are different from yours--which doesn't make them wrong.


Originally Posted by Rubik
VoP, for instance, disallows looking at paintings, reading books, opening doors, taking shelter in a building, or standing on a rug, since all of those are using items not on the (ridiculously short) list of items you're allowed to use.

JNA, you should be aware this is an extremely overliteral reading of the feat, and again something that would be your DM's final call.


Originally Posted by JNAProductions
Good god, man, what kind of mad, mad place is 3.5?

Well, although you did clearly specify flavor and fun above optimization, you're receiving optimization advice from past masters of the 3.5 ruleset.

Just so you know, DFI is a bog-standard go-to response when people bring up bards. If this strikes you as heavily optimized--and for most actual 3.5 tables, it's certainly pushing it--then you should definitely talk with your DM about it.


Originally Posted by Troacctid
Nymph's Kiss is best if you take it as early as possible. I'd pick it up at level 1 or 2. You can delay Vow of Peace a little bit.

I'll second taking Nymph's Kiss up front, since the earlier you take it the more extra skill points you'll have. You can also work this into your backstory from the beginning.


Originally Posted by JNAProductions
I am okay with imperfect optimization. Plus (as I say), bad decisions make good stories.

Be sure to post a campaign journal.

:smalltongue:

[Rubik]

JNA, you should be aware this is an extremely overliteral reading of the feat, and again something that would be your DM's final call.It is what the feat says, overly literal or not. If the DM rules otherwise, that's a good thing, but as matters stand, no he can't use those things. Even looking at a painting is technically breaking his vow, since seeing it is using it in the way it's intended.


I'll second taking Nymph's Kiss up front, since the earlier you take it the more extra skill points you'll have. You can also work this into your backstory from the beginning.I have a character with Nymph's Kiss who has a satyr as a pen pal, which (considering all the TMI the satyr sends him) is a pretty intimate relationship, as far as he's concerned.

"Seriously Dude. TMI. Stoooooop!"

OP, could you perhaps use a homemade VoP fix? There are several out there, after all.

[Extra Anchovies]

It is what the feat says, overly literal or not. If the DM rules otherwise, that's a good thing, but as matters stand, no he can't use those things. Even looking at a painting is technically breaking his vow, since seeing it is using it in the way it's intended.

No it's not. (https://youtu.be/imxb8IShtoc?t=1m57s) :smallbiggrin:


I have a character with Nymph's Kiss who has a satyr as a pen pal, which (considering all the TMI the satyr sends him) is a pretty intimate relationship, as far as he's concerned.

"Seriously Dude. TMI. Stoooooop!"

That's really cool. May end up using a similar concept if I ever use that feat.


OP, could you perhaps use a homemade VoP fix? There are several out there, after all.

Seconded. Here's a very simple fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?140428-Vow-of-Poverty-Fix) that I'm quite enamored to.

[AvatarVecna]

In regards to Nymph's Kiss, even if you take the fluff as being a pre-req, it doesn't have to be an intimate relationship, just an intimate one; whether you're close friends, allies forged from mutually suffering a conflict, and so on.

[Threadnaught]

Bards are overpowered, you'd be better of asking for help with Classes that need help to be played well, like Wizard, or Fighter.

No seriously, Bards know every story ever, just analyzing those they can learn the entire plot. A Wizard would need to cast a Spell. A Fighter would have to go through the entire plot and have someone smarter explain it to them.

[AvatarVecna]

Bards are overpowered, you'd be better of asking for help with Classes that need help to be played well, like Wizard, or Fighter.

No seriously, Bards know every story ever, just analyzing those they can learn the entire plot. A Wizard would need to cast a Spell. A Fighter would have to go through the entire plot and have someone smarter explain it to them.

Incidentally, one of my favorite characters ever was a Bard who got his power from realizing he was in a story and using his knowledge of both magical theory and storytelling tropes to alter reality.

"I'll just jump off this cliff! Since the hero never dies off-screen, and the important battle is taking place here, I'll definitely survive!" Feather Fall "See? I told you I'd be fine."

That kind of thing works for most editions, and I love remaking him whenever I find a new RP system.

[Rubik]

Seconded. Here's a very simple fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?140428-Vow-of-Poverty-Fix) that I'm quite enamored to.Apparently at 20th level you don't need to "breath"? That's not even a verb.

[lonewulf]

Im just going to chime in with my 2 cents with this short post:

1) In regards to VoPoverty not letting you use doors/look at paintings/etc: I am 99.9% sure your DM wont rule it that way...because 99.9% of all DM's wont rule it that way.
2) I think VoPoverty is usable by a Bard without neutering yourself too much. Will you be a typically OP Bard? No. Is that a bad thing? Not really.
3) I would, however, advise against VoPeace. Roleplay yourself as peaceful but dont take the feat....it is up to you, obviously, but it has bigger ramifications for the rest of the party.
4) Have fun. Seriously, this is all that really matters.

[Warrnan]

I also agree that covenants and vows with deities should be roleplayed.

Here's an idea for a peaceful inspire courage bard. Bard5/warweaver5/ sublime chord1/virtuoso9.

Grab the feats dragon fire inspiration and get Draconic aura (vigor). This way you are healing the party passively if they drop below 50% health. Buffing their to hit thru inspire courage. Extra fire damage if you prefer.

Dig around and find a non-lethal ranged weapon. I'm thinking a sling with baseball-like projectiles. After buffing the party for a round or two, start "kill stealing" your party's enemies. However, since it's non-lethal, you are actually saving your enemies's lives to support your RP vow of peace.

Singing hobo with dragon heritage shooting evil doers with bean bags to save their lives and give them a chance for redemption.

Crazy awesome fun.

[AvatarVecna]

I also agree that covenants and vows with deities should be roleplayed.

Here's an idea for a peaceful inspire courage bard. Bard5/warweaver5/ sublime chord1/virtuoso9.

Grab the feats dragon fire inspiration and get Draconic aura (vigor). This way you are healing the party passively if they drop below 50% health. Buffing their to hit thru inspire courage. Extra fire damage if you prefer.

Dig around and find a non-lethal ranged weapon. I'm thinking a sling with baseball-like projectiles. After buffing the party for a round or two, start "kill stealing" your party's enemies. However, since it's non-lethal, you are actually saving your enemies's lives to support your RP vow of peace.

Singing hobo with dragon heritage shooting evil doers with bean bags to save their lives and give them a chance for redemption.

Crazy awesome fun.

As a slight suggestion to improve on this build: since the only way to enter War Weaver at 6th level is to use early entry tricks, you may as well enter it a level earlier that that, and do something like this:

Bard 4/War Weaver 5/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 9

[torrasque666]

I'm still confused as to why everyone is suggesting Dragon Heritage. I thought you couldn't get it without sorcerer levels?

[Warrnan]

I didn't mean the dragon heritage feat. Sorry. Silverbrow human is the way to go.

Some people do take dragon touched + draconic heritage (battle dragon)+dragon fire inspiration to get sonic damage instead of fire. I personally feels it's too feat heavy and if I come up against fire resistance I can just use my normal +12 hit and damage instead. Ymmv

[Hiro Quester]

Apologies for trying to talk you out of VoP. I played a very item-dependent bard, and there are many good bard items out there. But ignore that part of my post.


If you go VoP, make sure that Perform (sing) or perform (oratory) is your maxed out perform skill. Even a reasonable reading of the rules on property makes it hard to see how you could own an instrument. Perform (wind instrument) is out, unless your DM rules that you can have a simple (non-masterwork) instrument. Even so, perform (sing) is most versatile for being able to use while you have your hands free. (But since you won't be holding a weapon or rod or wand to instrument, maybe that's not such an issue.

Consider also Doomspeak feat as one of the very best debuffs in the game (spend bardic music to insult someone --they have to make a very high DC save-- and they are -10 on saves, skill checks, attack rolls, until your next turn). It has a very non-exalted name, but you can easily refluff it. Use your exalted status to remind them how they are not good enough and should feel very bad about their life.

Sublime chord is indeed awesome. But consider taking at least two levels, for the bardic music that increases your caster level by 4. For dispelling or breaking through spell resistance, or just increasing the saving throws against your spells, it helps a lot. (I'm assuming you will be using charm, dominate, and so on to take people out of the game, rather than blasts, but will still be casting spells that disable the bad guys).

The boost to CL also helps compensate for the first level of Virtuoso and War Weaver, that don't progress casting.

A typical bard build will go to at least bard 8 (for the +2 to Inspire courage). You might need that if you are not going to have access to the gear (badge of valor, masterwork horn) that improves IC. Though Words of creation will help there, anyway. But doubling 2 is better than doubling 1.

You can take Sublime chord at 10th level. And you must take it at 10 if you want to get into 9th level spells. But that means that classes whose first level does not advance casting should be taken before 10th level (virtuoso and war weaver both have that feature).

So take bard 8/war weaver 1/virtuoso1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver 4/Virtuoso 4.


Personally, I have never thought of virtuoso as all that great. Another prestige class that might interest you instead (if Dragon Mag is allowed) is Heartfire Fanner (Dragon 314, from memory). A 5 level PrC, that Progresses IC and other bardic music, progresses SC casting, and gives bardic music that enables everyone in your party to get temporary use of fighter feats (each player choses their own). Improved initiative or blind-fight, or quickdraw, or Power Attack; whatever they want. Even better, at 3rd level you can give them two fighter feats (to try out TWF and ITWF for this encounter). And the capstone gives temporary use of three fighter feats, enabling a whole feat tree to be available.

The level 2 and level 4 bardic musics help others add +1 and +2 metamagic feats they know without increasing the spell level.

I played a bard/SC/HeartFire Fanner and got frequent requests for that feat music. This kind of buff adds a lot of versatility to the party.

That would be Bard 9/War Weaver1/SC1 or 2/War weaver 4/Heartfire Fanner 4 or 5.

[Endarire]

I wrote a relevant handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830).

[Troacctid]

I don't like Virtuoso either. Personally, I'm more a fan of Ardent Dilettante--perception bonuses, bonus feats, and all the skills.

[JNAProductions]

Okay, I think I'll just start with a nice, simple Bard 7/War Weaver 2. Which classes grant 9th level casting after that?

With that in mind, what are good spells to pick?

Human

Level 1 Bard-Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph's Kiss

Level 2 Bard-Vow of Nonviolence

Level 3 Bard-Melodic Casting

Level 4 Bard-Vow of Peace

Level 5 Bard-

Level 6 Bard-Words of Creation, Enlarge Spell

Level 7 Bard-

Level 8 Bard-Bonus Feat?

Level 9 War Weaver-Feat?

Actually, what if I just went Bard 8 (for +2 Inspire Competence)/War Weaver 5/Bard 15?

Not optimized, but honestly, it seems a good deal simpler, and this is my first time in 3.5.

That mostly leaves spell choice and later level feat choices.

Here's (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=223660) my in progress character sheet. The DM wants us rolling for stats, so I just put down the Venerable modifiers.

[AvatarVecna]

The "9th lvl Bard casting" class is Sublime Chord. And TBH, Bard 7/War Weaver 5/Bard +X is a perfectly fine buffer all around. The ridiculous double 9s build I provided earlier just ups the crazy to 11, but you don't need to do that to be an effective buffer.

If you're wanting to do the Sublime Chord thing, I actually recommend doing something like Bard 7/War Weaver 3/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver +2/Sublime Chord +X; it's not quite as optimized as it could be, but the build comes online earlier than Bard 9/War Weaver 1/Sublime Chord 2/War Weaver +4/Sublime Chord +4/Bard +X, and is only very slightly less capable at the higher levels.

[JNAProductions]

I think simple is best. Bard 7 or 8/War Weaver 5/Bard X.

All I need now is spell advice and stats.

[Hiro Quester]

For stats optimize charisma. Dex and con help you not die (AC and HP). Dex also helps with initiative, and you will want to go first. Int is good for extra skills. Dump str and wis. Str isn't needed much if you don't hit things or carry gear. Wis isn't needed much, though spot, listen and Sense Motive do help.

Make sure you keep perform and diplomacy high. Bluff is awesome, depending on how your exalted PC feels about manipulating people (for the greater good; or for their own good).


EDIT: Learn glibness for extra awesomeness and hilarity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html). Avoid the need for bloodshed by bending NPC's perceptions of reality to your will.

The war weaver guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1098856) will help you a lot. It includes build advice and a list of spells by class (including a list of good bard spells for casting through the weave.)

It also includes an interesting bard/war weaver/sc/recaster option that might be worth considering. Recaster lets you pull in spells from other classes, and get free metamagic that can be handy.

One excellent feature of sublime chord is that it gives spells that are 6th level for bard (which bard does not get until level 16) as 6th level SC spells (available at level 13). If you are being peaceful you want Irresistable Dance. Getting it early is gravy.

Bard war/weaver is okay. Bard/sublime chord/war weaver will be awesome. And without gear, you will need awesome.

Aldo note that you should not add bard levels after sublime chord. Bard advances bard casting, not SC casting. You want a PrC that advances any arcane casting class. Like war weaver does. Recaster might be a very good option for you. Or another bard PrC that advances casting and music (IC).

Edit: for other feats consider lingering song. It lets bardic music last for 10 rounds (instead of five) after you stop singing. Start anew bardic music every

[JNAProductions]

Human

Level 1 Bard-Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph's Kiss
Spells: Resistance, Message, Ghost Sound, Light

Level 2 Bard-Vow of Nonviolence
Spells: Detect Magic, Cure Light Wounds

Level 3 Bard-Melodic Casting
Spells: Ray of Hope, Prestidigitation

Level 4 Bard-Vow of Peace
Spells: Blur, Heroism

Level 5 Bard-
Spells: Feather Fall, Cure Moderate Wounds

Level 6 Bard-Words of Creation, Enlarge Spell

Level 7 Bard-
Spells: Cat's Grace, Displacement, Glibness

Level 8 Bard-Nimbus of Light
Spells: Cure Serious Wounds

Level 9 War Weaver-Lingering Song

Level 10 Sublime Chord-Holy Radiance
Spells: Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Teleport

Level 11 War Weaver-
Spells: Polymorph, Seeming

Also, thank you all again for your help putting this together.

[Hiro Quester]

Some other useful spells to consider (from SC unless noted otherwise; bold ones I think your character should seriously consider):

1: improvisation: luck bonus 2points /CL to add to skill checks, ability checks, or attack rolls; keeps being very useful at high levels.
Shock and Awe: if you get a surprise round, cast this as a swift action, and one target is -10 to initiative. Everyone in your party goes first.
Stay the Hand (PH2): if a creature chooses to attack you or target you with a spell, you cast this as immediate action, and they have to make a will save. If they fail, they choose not to do that. If they choose to attack another, they are -4 to attack, or have to make a concentration check to re-target the spell. A pacifist's best friend; it will save your life.

2:
Harmonize (RoS): 10 min/level, starting a bardic music effect requires only a move action.


3:
Warcry (BoED): your awesome shout makes creatures in 30 feet who fail a fort save cower in fear for 1d4 rounds. Great mass debuff.

4:
Sirine's grace. Add 4 to your CHA and DEX. Add you Cha bonus as a deflection bonus to AC. With your PC 's eventual +8 to Cha from VoP, this can make you very hart to hit.
Ruin Delver's Fortune: immediate action add you CHA bonus to a saving throw
Celerity (PHII): immediate action interrupt, take a standard action now, be dazed next turn. War weaver needs this.

But look also at the buffs your party might need at the beginning of an encounter, from the war weaver guide I linked. One benefit of the WW is the way you can release your weave at the beginning of combat, so that your whole party is now strong, invisible, and flying, etc.

Which buffs you use will depend on who the other PCs are. But consider single target spells you will be able to cast on the whole party. But make surveyor learns spells for that purpose.

[Troacctid]

I still think you should trade away your bardic knowledge and inspire courage for an animal companion. Vow of Peace + morale bonuses is not a combo--your Calm Emotions aura negates the buff--and if you're not taking Dragonfire Inspiration in a reasonable timeframe it's just not worth it.

[JNAProductions]

So I finally rolled stats.

Here's the character. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=223660)

Does everything appear to be in order? Anywhere I messed up? Any suggestions to improve on it?

[AvatarVecna]

Just make sure to be careful in the early levels; before your meatshields get really tough, and before you get awesome buffs, you're about as easy to kill as a wet paper bag. Be careful.

[Socratov]

D/id you roll your stats or did you use point buy? Whatever, be wise and exchange wisdom and constitution. Con is a lot mroe useful then wisdom, both for HP and fortsaves, not to mention concentrate. I also think that vow of poverty is going to actively hinder you form doing very well (good luck with casting spells without a spellcomponent pouch)... But if you really want it...

[Hiro Quester]

You can have a spell component pouch. It's in the VoP description.

If you have the option, Con and Dex will help you not die. Your current scores will make you very hard to keep alive.

Con for hit points and fort saves. Dex for AC and reflex saves. You get lots of skill points as a bard, so you don't need your intelligence that high. Nor wisdom. That's often a bard's dump stat.

I'd switch the wis and int for dex and con. (Modulo the venerable bonuses and penalties.)

The idea of the ACF that gives you an Animal Companion (personal bodyguard) is a very good one. Plus you can take exalted companion as one of your exalted feats, and your AC can also take VOP, so that it is able to protect you from evil doers (the bonuses to abilities, AC, etc will be very useful on your animal bodyguard).

[Troacctid]

I'd switch the wis and int for dex and con. (Modulo the venerable bonuses and penalties.)

You need Int for Words of Creation. Also, you can never have too many skill points. Bards have a lot of skills that they want to train. Perform, Spellcraft, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, and Sleight of Hand are all worth investing in, and then you have all of the Knowledge skills on top of that. More skill points = Happy Bard.

Intelligence also unlocks Bardic Sage, which is a pretty nice variant if you don't mind taking a hit to your Reflex.

Edit: Speaking of skills, you should not have points in Search, Craft, or Use Magic Device. Search because it's not a class skill, Craft and Use Magic Device because you literally can't use them due to VoP.

[JNAProductions]

Craft is needed for War-Weaver. Will adjust the other two now.

[ComaVision]

I don't understand what your character is going to be doing until level 10 when you start getting better spells. Standing in the corner nagging your group not to kill anything?