OOTS #988 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Emperordaniel]

Swordfights are always awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[YossarianLives]

Great comic. I'm glad we get to see more of Julio.

[zinycor]

Such a funny comic

[Angelalex242]

Well, somebody put skill points in profession 'fashionista' and craft 'decent outfits' :smallbiggrin:

[AdmiralCheez]

Julio, how did you even come up with that outfit? Don't you have a mirror on board?

[CrispyCriminal]

Oh wow, at first I thought Julio was going to take on Sigfried and Roy (not the blue armored dude) with that get up.

Needs more sparkles though.

[JT]

There seems to be some resentment/conflict over CAPTAIN Bandana's position.

I was hoping we'd find out more about HPoH's plan. I guess I'll just have to wait.

[Coventry]

That shirt!

Sweet merciful Gods, my poor useless eyes!

[Menarker]

Elan is right; Getting punched in the head a lot is a very legitimate reason for being grumpy! :smalltongue:

Seems that Elan is bonding a little with Felix a bit more every time we see them. :smallsmile:

[Pendulous]

Was his name always "Scoundel", with no "r"? It looks off.

[DaOldeWolf]

Such is the job of the bravest and most dedicated men. :smallsmile:

[Domino Quartz]

Was his name always "Scoundel", with no "r"? It looks off.

No, it wasn't. That's probably a typo.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Why does Julio even have such a shirt? :smalleek:

This was an amusing update--thank you!

EDIT: Though the dynamic between Andi and Bandana is...interesting. I wonder if anything will come of it.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Why does Julio even have such a shirt? :smalleek:


Because such a shirt is amazing.

[Porthos]

OK, I think it is more than safe to say there is some prior bad-blood between Andi and Bandana.

I'm not going to immediately presume that it was a relationship gone bad since there's no real sign of that (though it certainly could have been there's just no evidence either way). But, wow, whatever went down between those two (which could just be a long series of minor incidents) doesn't look like it's gonna get better any time soon.

[pearl jam]

Why does Julio even have such a shirt? :smalleek:

This was an amusing update--thank you!

EDIT: Though the dynamic between Andi and Bandana is...interesting. I wonder if anything will come of it.


He had it specially made for that panel. :biggrin:

[GAAD]

My gods, that outfit. I *so* want to Cosplay as Julio now. SQUEEE

[Emperordaniel]

He had it specially made for that panel. :biggrin:

That sounds like the Julio we all know and love.

[CoffeeIncluded]

OK, I think it is more than safe to say there is some prior bad-blood between Andi and Bandana.

I'm not going to immediately presume that it was a relationship gone bad since there's no real sign of that (though it certainly could have been there's just no evidence either way). But, wow, whatever went down between those two (which could just be a long series of minor incidents) doesn't look like it's gonna get better any time soon.

Yeah, I noticed that myself immediately after posting. I hope this isn't a buildup or foreshadowing to something nasty going down later on, but I think it might be. Also, I can't help but remembering Bandana telling Haley that she wanted to be captain ever since she was a little kid. Well, there's a difference between wanting to be captain and actually being a good captain with the ability to lead (which is something rogue character types sometimes struggle with), and I also think Bandana might be about to run up against that difference hard.

[Neoriceisgood]

Oh my lord that outfit is bad... wow. :smallbiggrin:

[dancrilis]

Hmm ... Andi vs Bandana, one seems to have a casual racist attitude against Gnomes (obvious remarks intending to be disparaging including race) the other seems to be an egotist that wishes to have there good fortune acknowledged by all (insists that everyone call them 'boss' now).

I think I favour Andi in this conflict.

[Ralanr]

Why...why are those even in his wardrobe? Did he go undercover as a clown once?

[Xanamir]

There's something I'm curious about:

In #970 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), Bandana says that Elan and Haley should invest in some cold weather gear since they're heading up north in the winter. Elan says he assumed that Durkon would just cast Endure Elements on them every morning, like he did in the desert, but Haley says it would be better not to rely on it in case Durkon needs those spell slots to fight Xykon.

But here we have Haley saying "Durkon has been casting Endure Elements on us every day" and "I just thought we'd keep doing that." Just something that has me scratching my head.

Regardless, the visual gag and Bandana's punchline are solid gold. I love me some Julio Scoundrel.

[Porthos]

Yeah, I noticed that myself immediately after posting. I hope this isn't a buildup or foreshadowing to something nasty going down later on, but I think it might be. Also, I can't help but remembering Bandana telling Haley that she wanted to be captain ever since she was a little kid. Well, there's a difference between wanting to be captain and actually being a good captain with the ability to lead (which is something rogue character types sometimes struggle with), and I also think Bandana might be about to run up against that difference hard.

We'd already seen signs of it in their prior interactions, but this was by far the most blatant.

Thing is, it could be something as "minor" as the long running bad blood between V and Belkar. Or Roy and Belkar. Or Haley and Belkar. Or... Well, you get the idea. :smallamused:

Still, beyond fleshing out personalities, I'm interested to see where this goes. If it goes anywhere.

[Erathia]

Why...why are those even in his wardrobe? Did he go undercover as a clown once?

Because he understood the importance of a good pop-back gag.

[Elenna]

The suspense! It burns!:smallbiggrin:

Also, was Julio under a blindness spell or something when he put on that outfit?:smallconfused:Seriously, why does he even have that?

[CletusMusashi]

Why...why are those even in his wardrobe? Did he go undercover as a clown once?

Julio is a cool old guy, and cool old guys tend to own some ridiculous eyesores that used to be fashionable. Honestly, the thing I'm most surprised by is that his reaction to the criticism wasn't something along the lines of "Huh?What's wrong?"

[The Giant]

There's something I'm curious about:

In #970 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), Bandana says that Elan and Haley should invest in some cold weather gear since they're heading up north in the winter. Elan says he assumed that Durkon would just cast Endure Elements on them every morning, like he did in the desert, but Haley says it would be better not to rely on it in case Durkon needs those spell slots to fight Xykon.

But here we have Haley saying "Durkon has been casting Endure Elements on us every day" and "I just thought we'd keep doing that." Just something that has me scratching my head.

Regardless, the visual gag and Bandana's punchline are solid gold. I love me some Julio Scoundrel.

What happened is that I forgot about that bit of dialogue when writing this strip. Whoops.

[Darth Paul]

And I just noticed- "'Ogre-Witch' of Rupture Ravine." I can't even begin to guess how many Ogre-Magi I've fought through the years as a PC, but never a single Ogre-Witch. It's nice to see the professions opening up to female ogres.

[CoffeeIncluded]

What happened is that I forgot about that bit of dialogue when writing this strip. Whoops.

It's okay, it happens to the best of us. So which ones supersedes the other?

[The Giant]

It's okay, it happens to the best of us. So which ones supersedes the other?

Neither, just assume that Haley changed her mind for some reason. Probably because of the getting-punched-in-the-head thing.

[Darth Paul]

What happened is that I forgot about that bit of dialogue when writing this strip. Whoops.

Maybe Haley forgot about that bit of dialogue. She has been punched in the head by a Crystal Golem recently. :smallsmile: That can't be good for short-term memory.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the Giant himself! What an honor!

[ahdok]

I think a lot of people are just roleplaying their points of fatigue super hard. Give them some roleplaying XP already :)

[Xanamir]

Neither, just assume that Haley changed her mind for some reason. Probably because of the getting-punched-in-the-head thing.

That... is a really good point. My sense of narrative balance has been restored! :smallbiggrin:

[CoffeeIncluded]

Neither, just assume that Haley changed her mind for some reason. Probably because of the getting-punched-in-the-head thing.

When in doubt, concussions. Got it; thanks!

[JustWantedToSay]

Shouldn't Bandana have said she "got a snazzy new shortsword"? Or 'Knife' to be colloquial?

[Porthos]

Probably because of the getting-punched-in-the-head thing.

This is exactly what I presumed. GO ME! :smallcool:

(Elan, of course, is just being Elan :smallwink:)

[ti'esar]

Wow, I'm so much not a fashion - or even aesthetics - person that it's not even funny, and I still gave a startled laugh at Julio's appearance in the penultimate panel. I just cannot take those boots and coat seriously.

Meanwhile, more development for the crew of the Mechane is nice, but I'm a bit alarmed at the hostility between Andi and Bandana. It isn't necessarily anything all that serious, but it's pretty obvious now that their previous argument wasn't just a one-off.

[Elrondel]

Guess Crystal was worth a lot of EXP! I hope Andi doesn't somehow turn into one of the Bad Guys...but a mechanic's gotta do what a mechanic's gotta do.

[The Giant]

I've uploaded a revised version of the strip with altered dialogue that resolves the inconsistency with #970. You may need to force reload the page to see it.

[Ramien]

I've uploaded a revised version of the strip with altered dialogue that resolves the inconsistency with #970. You may need to force reload the page to see it.

Good save! Still fits in and shows Felix's sensitive side even more clearly.

[zinycor]

Nice save Giant!!

[GAAD]

I can't even tell the difference. Good job man. (although maybe there could be some sort of acknowledgement to the prior dialogue in the printed book?)

[goodpeople25]

I've uploaded a revised version of the strip with altered dialogue that resolves the inconsistency with #970. You may need to force reload the page to see it.
I like the change but i also kinda liked the old version. Is there going to be any way to access it?

[Psyren]

There seems to be some resentment/conflict over CAPTAIN Bandana's position.

To be fair though, it's kind of a **** move for Bandana to stroll onto the ship, flush with/bragging about her fresh XP and shore leave, and then tell the folks who didn't get a break not to "get their knickers in a twist." If Bandana were a better leader, she'd have brought Andi back something to thank her for working non-stop while she was eating waffles with her passengers.

[JT]

Just noticed (with help above) :) that Bandana snatched up the short sword in Hard Sell, but is now calling it a dagger. It is the same weapon (confirmed by hilt), so Haley didn't gift the dagger offstage.

Damn! I didn't want to be a forum nit picker!

[JCAll]

And I just noticed- "'Ogre-Witch' of Rupture Ravine." I can't even begin to guess how many Ogre-Magi I've fought through the years as a PC, but never a single Ogre-Witch. It's nice to see the professions opening up to female ogres.

Must be because you've killed all the males.

[Takver]

Yeah, looking at her previous conversations, Andi seems to be nursing a number of grievances against Bandana, some legit and some less so. I'm sure she's not the only crew member who's been muttering about having a vampire on board (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html). She thinks Bandana is a "kid," and this comic isn't the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) that she's taken Bandana's remarks in the worst possible way. I'm guessing that she and Bandana already didn't care for each other very much, but when Julio was the captain, they were both able to pretty much just do their jobs. Now that Bandana's giving orders to Andi (and Andi obviously doesn't think Bandana should have been left in charge), they're getting a lot more chances to rub each other the wrong way.

[Xanamir]

I've uploaded a revised version of the strip with altered dialogue that resolves the inconsistency with #970. You may need to force reload the page to see it.

Love the revised version! In addition to the consistency fix, Elan's line about why Haley is grumpy is one of my new favorite quotes.

[Qaanol]

Today I learned the word “sartorial”. Thanks Giant!

[Canuck617]

Thanks for the super quick updates as of late!!

Also:

:elan: "To be fair, it's been a long time since this morning"

Hoihoihoihoihoihoi!! That made me laugh more than it probably should have.

Also, isn't Rupture Ravine one of those new-fangled redundant place names like Sunken Valley, Zenith Peak, Wooden Forest, and Pinnacle Mountains? (I might be wrong on one or two of those names. It was in the last thread if someone would like to point it out.)

Personally, I think Andi was being a bit snarkier than she had to with her "Great. I appreciate the permission to keep doing my job, Bandana" line, but unless Bandana was just putting down the sarcasm with the "Captain Bandana" line, it wasn't necessary. It was funny, though.

Also, was I the only one who misread this title to mean "A whole lot less swordfighting" rather than "Not even taking into account swordfighting"? I mean, even though this one caught me more off guard than most, I know misread titles are a thing and all...

...at least for most people

...right?

[Itrogash]

Just noticed (with help above) :) that Bandana snatched up the short sword in Hard Sell, but is now calling it a dagger. It is the same weapon (confirmed by hilt), so Haley didn't gift the dagger offstage.

Damn! I didn't want to be a forum nit picker!

Well, it's a gnome-sized shortsword, so relatively it may as well be a human-sized dagger ;P

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

That... that is quite a powerful fashion statement... I will heed and obey, my master...:smallsmile:

[Lathund]

Great comic with OotSy hunour all around. Thanks, Giant!

Also, I already had a suspicion Andy might be Bandana's ex, but that suspicion is slowly getting stronger. Or was it already confirmed? Either way, she's not the most likeable character so far.

[Porthos]

Great comic with OotSy hunour all around. Thanks, Giant!

Also, I already had a suspicion Andy might be Bandana's ex, but that suspicion is slowly getting stronger. Or was it already confirmed? Either way, she's not the most likeable character so far.

Just goes to show perception, but I find Andi quite likable. :smallsmile: The worst thing she's done is give a bit of grousy backchat to Bandana a few times. Just means the two probably don't like each other. No big.

What I really get from her is a sense of exasperation. Either at the world, or the things she's expected to do with the ship, or Bandana herself. Trust me, I can feel kinship with people who feel exasperated with others' demands. Well, at times at least. :smalltongue:

In fact, she might be the closest the strip has come to the sterotypical Tech/IT Support worker (V has come close at times, but this seems to be slightly different). I can see a ship engineer fitting that role quite nicely. Makes for a new set of jokes and dynamics at the very least. :smallsmile:

[Lathund]

Just goes to show perception, but I find Andi quite likable. :smallsmile: The worst thing she's done is give a bit of grousy backchat to Bandana a few times. Just means the two probably don't like each other. No big.

What I really get from her is a sense of exasperation. Either at the world, or the things she's expected to do with the ship, or Bandana herself. Trust me, I can feel kinship with people who feel exasperated with others' demands. Well, at times at least. :smalltongue:

In fact, she might be the closest the strip has come to the sterotypical Tech/IT Support worker (V has come close at times, but this seems to be slightly different). I can see a ship engineer fitting that role quite nicely. Makes for a new set of jokes and dynamics at the very least. :smallsmile:

Well, I have to agree. But still, *I* don't find her a very likeable character so far.

[ti'esar]

Also, I already had a suspicion Andy might be Bandana's ex, but that suspicion is slowly getting stronger.

You know, I've seen a couple of people mention this, and in fact briefly considered it myself - but after thinking about it for a moment, is there any actual reason to believe it? 959 doesn't really imply the breakup was particularly hostile, and it's really hard to imagine why she would have left her armor with Bandana while staying on the same ship.

[gerryq]

Yeah, I noticed that myself immediately after posting. I hope this isn't a buildup or foreshadowing to something nasty going down later on, but I think it might be. Also, I can't help but remembering Bandana telling Haley that she wanted to be captain ever since she was a little kid. Well, there's a difference between wanting to be captain and actually being a good captain with the ability to lead (which is something rogue character types sometimes struggle with), and I also think Bandana might be about to run up against that difference hard.

<Shrug> To me it came across as simply reminding Andi that Bandana IS currently the Captain. Bandana was in a fight with a golem, after all, it wasn't like she was sunning herself on a deckchair while the crew worked.

[banjo1985]

Okay, I really dig Felix. Makes sense that someone as dashing as Julio Scoundrel would have a personal stylist. :smallbiggrin:

[unbeliever536]

Yeah, looking at her previous conversations, Andi seems to be nursing a number of grievances against Bandanna, some legit and some less so. I'm sure she's not the only crew member who's been muttering about having a vampire on board (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html). She thinks Bandanna is a "kid," and this comic isn't the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) that she's taken Bandanna's remarks in the worst possible way. I'm guessing that she and Bandanna already didn't care for each other very much, but when Julio was the captain, they were both able to pretty much just do their jobs. Now that Bandana's giving orders to Andi (and Andi obviously doesn't think Bandanna should have been left in charge), they're getting a lot more chances to rub each other the wrong way.

Definitely sensing a blow-up in the future on that score. This clearly isn't just a matter of Andi's personality; I think it's no accident that we got to see how friendly and personable she can be in 961 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html). That strip also gives her main stated reason for disliking Bandanna - though it's hard to tell age ranges in OOTS, I'd bet that Bandanna (like Haley) is in her early-mid twenties while Andi is in her thirties.

[SaintRidley]

I'd wear Julio's outfit. Maybe not to fight the Ogre-Witch of Rupture Ravine, but perhaps to something like one of Tarquin's weddings.

[Basement Cat]

Did Bandana trade her short sword to Haley for the dagger? I doubt the Giant would make a mistake like that so...something's up.

I don't think it's because the short sword was sized for gnomes, though. If it were then Haley's dagger would have been a pen knife and it clearly wasn't in her fight with Crystal.

Off panel actions can be sooooo difficult to figure out. Difficult but fun, that is.:smallsmile:

[Quild]

Again some quarrel between Andi and Bandana.

I don't really get why Felix is sad. Haley does not seem to be turning him down :smallconfused:


Had Julio been dressed by other peoples for so long (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)?

[Lissou]

Also, was I the only one who misread this title to mean "A whole lot less swordfighting" rather than "Not even taking into account swordfighting"?

I read it that way too, but honestly, I often read the title one way before reading the strip, and another afterwards.


Also, I already had a suspicion Andy might be Bandana's ex, but that suspicion is slowly getting stronger. Or was it already confirmed? Either way, she's not the most likeable character so far.

I don't think so. Even if Andi wears leather armor (and I'm not sure the mechanic would wear armor), why leave it in someone else's closet rather than take it with you, if you're living on the same ship? It makes more sense if the ex left it behind and also left the ship. Plus I may be wrong, but I have a feeling Andi would have made a comment if Bandana had given Haley her armor without asking. And finally, I think it's a bit weird to refer to someone as "a kid" if you used to date them.


I don't really get why Felix is sad. Haley does not seem to be turning him down :smallconfused:

Maybe it made more sense before the comic was changed? As it is though, I interpret it as Felix trying to do a nice thing (and making a lot of effort, too, including picking the right sizes and colour schemes) and instead of getting thanked, he's told the people wanted to do it themselves (that's not how Haley meant it, but it could easily be how he interpreted it). Trying to do a nice thing and then feeling like you messed up can make someone sad.

My own reaction to the comic: I like the dynamics between Andi and Bandana. Two characters I like individually, who are pretty different, and seem to grate each other. I wonder what will come out of it. I also enjoy seeing more development from Felix. I enjoyed this strip a lot, although I'm annoyed I missed the first version and may never know what the exact differences are. Doesn't really matter since this one is the official one, I guess.

[Blue_C.]

In fact, she might be the closest the strip has come to the sterotypical Tech/IT Support worker (V has come close at times, but this seems to be slightly different). I can see a ship engineer fitting that role quite nicely. Makes for a new set of jokes and dynamics at the very least. :smallsmile:
Andi even has a boss that assumes that anything they don't understand must be easy, and that limitations are for other people to worry about.

I have no idea what that might feel like. None at all *grumble*grumble*I'm not even trained in computer programming why is this now my job?*grumble*

I think this post made me like Andi more.


And finally, I think it's a bit weird to refer to someone as "a kid" if you used to date them.
Eh, I can see it. If a perceived lack of maturity led to the breakup, then I could see how Andi might mentally peg Bandana as kid and for it to stick. A bad enough breakup, and Andi will see any little thing as confirming that Bandana is an immature twerp, and will ignore any signs that she actually is growing and learning, or possibly was never all that immature to being with.

All that said, I agree with you on the armor. There is one logical explanation, that Bandana bought it for her girlfriend, and said girlfriend gave it back after the breakup, but its a stretch. So, even if Andi is Bandana's ex, I don't think she's that ex.

[Garwain]

Julio a bad dresser? That's a strain on my suspension of disbelief.... I figured that a dashing swordsman wouldn't need a personal advisor. So it seems that not all prerequisites need to be inherent, a temporarily buff was sufficient to enter the PrC then. Once again, nothing is what it seems to be...

[Quild]

Maybe it made more sense before the comic was changed?

Reading first posts, Haley did turn him down before the change. She says Durkon will cast Endure Elements and that the coats are useless. But she had said the opposite before.

Elan seems to emphasize that Haley didn't like the intention (I, for one), it's weird. Maybe because he's very emphatic!

[unbeliever536]

Julio a bad dresser? That's a strain on my suspension of disbelief.... I figured that a dashing swordsman wouldn't need a personal advisor. So it seems that not all prerequisites need to be inherent, a temporarily buff was sufficient to enter the PrC then. Once again, nothing is what it seems to be...

Julio's clearly got the Cha to pull off any outfit, no matter how ridiculous (and no matter who's wearing it :smallwink:). But he doesn't necessarily have the Wis to throw together one that doesn't strain the eyes. Or maybe the Giant decided that Hinjo shouldn't stand for all colorblind people (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363648-OOTS-959-The-Discussion-Thread/page19&p=17833424#post17833424). :smalltongue:

[Themrys]

It feels off that Bandana feels guilty about eating. The "eating is sin" rhetoric is a rather modern thing. (Except for ascetic monks and the like). I just can't imagine Bandana reading magazines that advertise dieting for a skinny look.

But maybe Julio forces all crew members to diet so that they look good in the background.

Edit: And he clearly wore that horrible outfit so that one of his crew members could heroically save him.

[A.A.King]

It is interesting to see that when there are hostilities between characters the forum automatically asumes they are the result of a bad break-up. This tell me more about their dating life then I ever needed to know :P

I rather like Andi, she adds an extra bit of humour. Andi also seems to establish that Bandana isn't a great captain yet, she is just very keen to be a captain. This gives Bandana room to grow, which in a story is always a good thing.

To me this currently looks like the classic relationship between two co-workers who got along fine (not good, just fine) until one got promoted to be in charge of the other. One tries to hard to be in charge (insisting to be called Boss or in this case Captain) the other doesn't really give the other a chance (seeing them as a Kid)

[Kareasint]

Julio's outfit probably could have killed the Ogre on its own.

Thinking back, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0391.html) Felix probably had the outfits laid out so that Julio could change quickly for the montage.

[Keltest]

It feels off that Bandana feels guilty about eating. The "eating is sin" rhetoric is a rather modern thing. (Except for ascetic monks and the like). I just can't imagine Bandana reading magazines that advertise dieting for a skinny look.

But maybe Julio forces all crew members to diet so that they look good in the background.

Edit: And he clearly wore that horrible outfit so that one of his crew members could heroically save him.

I can buy it. Even without the "eating is sin" mentality, when someone eats a lot more than they normally do theyre still going to feel a little bit weird about it.

[dancrilis]

To me this currently looks like the classic relationship between two co-workers who got along fine (not good, just fine) until one got promoted to be in charge of the other. One tries to hard to be in charge (insisting to be called Boss or in this case Captain) the other doesn't really give the other a chance (seeing them as a Kid)

Exactly how I see it - and in fairness to Andi she has given Bandana every chance, done what was needed while the boss swanned around with the passengers, prevented the ship for falling into the ocean only to be casually derided in front of virtual strangers, and on top of that the new temporary commander insists on being called by their temporary assumed role every-time anyone tries to talk to them.

Bandana is trying to demand the respect that she sees the title conferring without bothering to try and earn the respect - and also acting to diminish the accomplishments of others on her crew.

[Lathund]

It feels off that Bandana feels guilty about eating. The "eating is sin" rhetoric is a rather modern thing. (Except for ascetic monks and the like). I just can't imagine Bandana reading magazines that advertise dieting for a skinny look.

"Gay is okay" is also quite a modern rhetoric. I'd argue that OotS is a modern comic against an old background.

[Killer Angel]

Felix was right. That outfit was unwatchable. :smallbiggrin:

[Lkctgo]

Hmm, so Julio fought with your mama before eh?

[Lathund]

Hmm, so Julio fought with your mama before eh?

Badum tiss...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Interesting to see this conflict between Andi and Bandana growing stronger. Like Porthos, I am curious to see if there's more behind this feuding than it seems; nothing that Bandana has done has really provoked this kind of response. Also, seems like almost every strip Andi is in has some kind of mistake. :smallbiggrin:

[Themrys]

"Gay is okay" is also quite a modern rhetoric. I'd argue that OotS is a modern comic against an old background.

There have always been homosexual people, and there likely always have been people with an opinion on homosexuality.

However, the idea to voluntarily limit one's eating even though one is still hungry, is a rather new idea. As is the idea to make up for it with exercise. Individual people may have felt the need to limit their eating, but the guilt-rhetoric needs a dominant skinny beauty ideal to flourish. And I didn't see proof of such an ideal before. (Everyone except the Empress looks thin, but as they're stick figures that doesn't mean too much)

Ah, well. Maybe we'll learn of the one time Bandana put everyone's lives at risk because she was too fat to fit through a tunnel, or the like. That would explain the guilt. :smallwink:

[Gusion]

Haley fails the empathy check.

Perhaps it is just my perception... but Felix comes across as fitting certain stereotypes for being homosexual - was this on purpose Rich?

[M84]

Ugh, Julio going out in that shirt and that coat together has to fall somewhere South on the Alignment axis.

[kivzirrum]

I laughed quite a lot at this comic, though like many others, I am most struck by the dynamic between Andi and Bandana. Seems to me that Andi doesn't like being told to do by someone with less experience than her former captain. I like both characters, so hopefully things work out okay.

Though was that casually racist comment really necessary, Andi? Sheesh, don't be mean to gnomes, that's a quick way to lose audience sympathy!

Also, I love the comic as is, though I can't help but be curious what it looked like last night. Ah, well. That's what I get for going to bed early!

[Lathund]

Haley fails the empathy check.

Perhaps it is just my perception... but Felix comes across as fitting certain stereotypes for being homosexual - was this on purpose Rich?

Wait, if Bandana's gay and Felix too, they're... they're perfect for each other! :smallredface:





Yeah, no... I'll crawl back under a rock somewhere.

[JSSheridan]

I wonder how scoundrel is doing without this guys.

Thanks Giant!

[dancrilis]

... nothing that Bandana has done has really provoked this kind of response ...

What kind of response?

Lets look at the interaction with some paraphrasing.
951 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html)
Andi is helping the ship not fall apart and is directed to new work
Bandana: Need you to fix the ship.
Andi: Cool.

952 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html)
Andi walks down after saving the ship to speak to Bandana
Andi: I have saved the ship Bandana - all the crew will not die now and we can proceed to where we need to be.
Bandana: Call me Captain.

956 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html)
Andi points out a personal limitation of hers.
Andi: We need new parts I can't fix this Bandana.
Bandana: Cool - Tindertown should have them.

965 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)
The cost of fixing of fixing the ship is confirmed.
Bandana: Well we are screwed thanks to Andi's bundling.
Andi: What the ... ?
Bandana: Well all in the past.

988 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html)
Bandana after leaving Andi to manage the ship and Gnome contractors returns happy and laughing.
Andi: Been managing these little freaks all day.
Bandana: How are the repairs going.
Andi: It'll get done.
Bandana: Good go to it.
Andi: Sure Bandana I will do that think that I said I would get done.
Bandana: Thats Captain Bandana to you.


I don't think it's Andi that is out of line between them (although her gnome comment seems a bit harsh which is a separate matter).

[Emanick]

However, the idea to voluntarily limit one's eating even though one is still hungry, is a rather new idea. As is the idea to make up for it with exercise. Individual people may have felt the need to limit their eating, but the guilt-rhetoric needs a dominant skinny beauty ideal to flourish. And I didn't see proof of such an ideal before. (Everyone except the Empress looks thin, but as they're stick figures that doesn't mean too much)

Asceticism has taken that form for millennia. It hasn't typically been about personal beauty - it's more often about attempting to attain spiritual discipline of some kind by mastering one's bodily desires, or something along those lines - but voluntarily limiting one's food intake is hardly a modern concept in itself.

[kivzirrum]

Asceticism has taken that form for millennia. It hasn't typically been about personal beauty - it's more often about attempting to attain spiritual discipline of some kind by mastering one's bodily desires, or something along those lines - but voluntarily limiting one's food intake is hardly a modern concept in itself.

While true enough, I hardly think one can apply asceticism to Bandana :smalltongue:

[littlebum2002]

When I first opened the comic, before reading anything, my eyes immediately went to Julio and I thought "wow that's an ugly outfit"



Again some quarrel between Andi and Bandana.

I don't really get why Felix is sad. Haley does not seem to be turning him down :smallconfused:


Had Julio been dressed by other peoples for so long (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)?

It still makes sense. Felix spent a lot of time picking out the perfect jackets, and Haley said she doesn't care what they look like, thus making his efforts in vain.

[Lissou]

Exactly how I see it - and in fairness to Andi she has given Bandana every chance, done what was needed while the boss swanned around with the passengers, prevented the ship for falling into the ocean only to be casually derided in front of virtual strangers, and on top of that the new temporary commander insists on being called by their temporary assumed role every-time anyone tries to talk to them.

Bandana is trying to demand the respect that she sees the title conferring without bothering to try and earn the respect - and also acting to diminish the accomplishments of others on her crew.

I went and read back, and every other member of the crew calls Banada Captain. However, Bandana is fine with non-members of the crew (such as the OOTS) calling her Bandana (or even B) even though it's not unusual to call the Captain of a ship you're staying on "Captain" when you're not part of the crew. She hasn't corrected Andi every single time, either. She did correct her more than once, however, and Andi is still the only crew member calling her Bandana. So I have to see that as something conscious on the part of Andi, at this point.

Bandana has also taken responsibility. She did say (to Andi) "three days in command and I'm already wrecking the ship". She didn't blame everyone else.

I get it, they push each other's buttons. But I like both of them and I would rather not misrepresent one of them. Bandana insists on being called "Captain" by her crew while she's the captain. Andi insists on calling her Bandana (but otherwise seems to respect her authority, at least to her face). They're both being stubborn in some way, and I suppose they both have understandable reasons. But you're making it sound like Bandana's completely unreasonable and Andi's completely reasonable and I have to disagree with that.

[Necris Omega]

Again some quarrel between Andi and Bandana.

I don't really get why Felix is sad. Haley does not seem to be turning him down :smallconfused:


Had Julio been dressed by other peoples for so long (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html)?

It's not about the fact that he wasn't rejected - it's about the total lack of appreciation for all his efforts.

"I went to every tailor and traveling gear store in the town, coordinated with eight different dye artisans, accessorized, and even got your names embroidered on the inside of the collars!"

"Yeah, yeah, fine, whatever."

"{=O"

This wasn't an act of practicality, it was one of art. And for a man used to getting adulation and respect from the likes of Julio, well...

Good save Elan.

[Quild]

I wondered some time ago if Andi couldn't be Bandana's "chubby" ex. That's still a possibility.


It's not about the fact that he wasn't rejected - it's about the total lack of appreciation for all his efforts.

"I went to every tailor and traveling gear store in the town, coordinated with eight different dye artisans, accessorized, and even got your names embroidered on the inside of the collars!"

"Yeah, yeah, fine, whatever."

"{=O"

This wasn't an act of practicality, it was one of art. And for a man used to getting adulation and respect from the likes of Julio, well...

Good save Elan.

I get that after Haley's second bubble speech, but his reaction after the first one is very sensitive! She makes no judgment in it.

He also haven't say yet that he did through some trouble for it. He's just showing one coat (Elan's?) yet. Nothing to be impressed at for someone who doesn't expect this attention to details.
Sure, Haley could have thanked him...

[Kantaki]

What kind of response?

Lets look at the interaction with some paraphrasing.
951 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0951.html)
Andi is helping the ship not fall apart and is directed to new work
Bandana: Need you to fix the ship.
Andi: Cool.

952 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html)
Andi walks down after saving the ship to speak to Bandana
Andi: I have saved the ship Bandana - all the crew will not die now and we can proceed to where we need to be.
Bandana: Call me Captain.

956 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0956.html)
Andi points out a personal limitation of hers.
Andi: We need new parts I can't fix this Bandana.
Bandana: Cool - Tindertown should have them.

965 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html)
The cost of fixing of fixing the ship is confirmed.
Bandana: Well we are screwed thanks to Andi's bundling.
Andi: What the ... ?
Bandana: Well all in the past.

988 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html)
Bandana after leaving Andi to manage the ship and Gnome contractors returns happy and laughing.
Andi: Been managing these little freaks all day.
Bandana: How are the repairs going.
Andi: It'll get done.
Bandana: Good go to it.
Andi: Sure Bandana I will do that think that I said I would get done.
Bandana: Thats Captain Bandana to you.


I don't think it's Andi that is out of line between them (although her gnome comment seems a bit harsh which is a separate matter).

You are deliberately painting Bandana in the worst possible light there.

1) The first example Bandana is telling Roy to hold the rope because Andi is needed at the engines. Thats efficient use of availlable resources. Had she told Andi to do something useful while the latter was still holding the rope I would agree.

2) You might have a point there but Bandana tells Andi to call her captain before the latter delivers the News.

3) Neither says anything wrong there. Andi informs Bandana that they need new parts and Bandana states that they should get them in the next port - where they had to stop anyway.

4)All Bandana says is that the repairs will take longer because of the improvised repairs. When Andi calls her out on it she even admits that the comment was a bit unfair, but that it still is a Problem right now.

5) Anti Gnome comments aside, I think Andi overreacts there. Sure Bandana could have stayed on the ship but would it have helped? And I see nothing wrong with the captain telling a crewmember to resume her work after recieving an status update.

And I don't think Bandana is wrong when she insists on being adressed as captain. On a ship it is important that it is clear who is in command and the titel is part of that. This isn't ust a matter of Bandanas ego.

I think the problem is that Bandana (rightfully to a degree) demands that Andi respects her current position on the Mechane - being called captain is part of this - but still lacks experience since this is her first commando. Andi on the other hand sees that Julio gave the ship to someone younger than her, someone she views as a inexperienced child. Now I don't know why there is bad blood between the two, but I think that Andi is wrong in the current situation because even if she doesn't respect Bandana as a captain she should at least respect that Julio choose her as his replacement.

[happycrow]

Sounds to me, given *both* examples, like the PCs need to contemplate Crew Appreciation Day.

[dmaxno]

I don't think it's Andi that is out of line between them (although her gnome comment seems a bit harsh which is a separate matter).

I like both characters and I agree that Andi has not been out of line (and that her gnome comment was harsh). It seems reasonable for Andi to be frustrated with the many changes and the workload on her. Andi sees herself as an equal and calling Bandana by a title is still new. My guess is that Andi just likes to focus on the work and expects occasional positive reinforcement. That's just not in B's head at the moment, even if she's usually positive and kind.
I think that, so far, Bandana has been fairly reasonable. It is not easy to step in after someone famous like Julio and one way this shows is that she wants to be 'in command' at all times, even when speaking to her specialists. It is fair that she ask for a status report, but the commands at the end were redundant. I think it is just a normal learning curve, or possibly just a reaction to her current stress.
I do not think there's any 'bad blood' or past relationship at all. Still, it would be interesting to see the dynamic between two skilled and likeable, but not always compatible people.

[Burner28]

Felix seems pretty cool.

Also, what's the main argument about concerniong Andi and Captain Bandanna?

[2.5 cats]

Did Bandana trade her short sword to Haley for the dagger? I doubt the Giant would make a mistake like that so...something's up.

It makes sense to me that they'd trade. They grabbed their weapons in the heat of the moment, but the fact is that a short sword is a better weapon than a dagger and Haley is the one who paid. By rights Haley could keep both weapons; giving B. the slightly less good one as thanks is more-than-fair.

[Jay R]

It feels off that Bandana feels guilty about eating.

She doesn't. She feels guilty about eating too much - a very different thing.


The "eating is sin" rhetoric is a rather modern thing. (Except for ascetic monks and the like).

Not really. Gluttony was one of the classical Seven Deadly Sins. Asceticism has been around for a long time. It's just taken on a slightly new form recently.


I just can't imagine Bandana reading magazines that advertise dieting for a skinny look.

No, but she knows about Julio Scoundrél comic books, and they are just as notorious for flaunting an unrealistic female body image.

[They also promote an equally unrealistic male body image, but somehow people don't complain as much about that.]

[jidasfire]

I realize this may be an unpopular sort of opinion to have on the internet, but it is possible that the conflict between Bandana and Andi is not indicative of either one be wholly right or wrong. I've met many people in my life, both of whom are perfectly decent, yet simply grind up against each other and don't get along. It's possible Bandana is a bit flush with her new-found authority and hasn't learned to show proper appreciation towards some members of her crew just yet. It is also possible Andi is a bit overly sensitive and resentful of the promotion of a former equal. Both these things can be true and it doesn't make either one the villain.

Now, as to why the conflict is there, it's possible it has some reason that may play out in the story, or it may be that Rich is just fleshing out their characters and showing that the crew is not all one big happy homogenous family, because that's more interesting from the perspective of a writer. Either way, I don't think it's a bad thing, and doesn't demand the drawing of battle lines.

[Bulldog Psion]

Usually, fourth wall breaks don't strike me as too hilarious. However, Elan's "To be fair, it's been a long time since this morning" comment is subtle enough to have me chuckling out loud. :smallbiggrin: Well played, Sir Giant! :smallcool:

[Quild]

Did Bandana trade her short sword to Haley for the dagger? I doubt the Giant would make a mistake like that so...something's up.

I don't think it's because the short sword was sized for gnomes, though. If it were then Haley's dagger would have been a pen knife and it clearly wasn't in her fight with Crystal.

Off panel actions can be sooooo difficult to figure out. Difficult but fun, that is.:smallsmile:
It makes sense to me that they'd trade. They grabbed their weapons in the heat of the moment, but the fact is that a short sword is a better weapon than a dagger and Haley is the one who paid. By rights Haley could keep both weapons; giving B. the slightly less good one as thanks is more-than-fair.

Hi cats.

The weapon that B kept is the short sword. Her previous weapon and the dagger don't have the same pommel's color.
There can be a blurry distinction between what some may call a dagger and some may call a short sword.

[JT]

It makes sense to me that they'd trade. They grabbed their weapons in the heat of the moment, but the fact is that a short sword is a better weapon than a dagger and Haley is the one who paid. By rights Haley could keep both weapons; giving B. the slightly less good one as thanks is more-than-fair.

It might make sense, but the hilt colors match with a "no trade." The short sword has a dusty rose or maybe lilac colored hilt, and B's sheathed weapon has that same color. The dagger had a slate blue hilt.

And... Haley and Élan look uber cute and happy in panel 2. You'd almost think they were in love. ;)


Edit: Ninja-ed

[D.One]

I think the problem is that Bandana (rightfully to a degree) demands that Andi respects her current position on the Mechane - being called captain is part of this - but still lacks experience since this is her first commando. Andi on the other hand sees that Julio gave the ship to someone younger than her, someone she views as a inexperienced child. Now I don't know why there is bad blood between the two, but I think that Andi is wrong in the current situation because even if she doesn't respect Bandana as a captain she should at least respect that Julio choose her as his replacement.

This comic kind of support your view. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0961.html) It seems to me, as already pointed here, that this is a "companions turned into boss and subordinate" situation. Andi doesn't really sees B as their leader, and B still had not the time to earn their respect (but the situation demands she enforce her role as captain).

I don't really buy the bad blood situation, and, for all the reasoins already posted here, also reject the "armor ex" hypothesis.

And poor Felix, twice burned, only the first time was more literal...:smallbiggrin:

[Lathund]

Not really. Gluttony was one of the classical Seven Deadly Sins. Asceticism has been around for a long time. It's just taken on a slightly new form recently.

It is one of the capital sins, yes. But eating a solid lunch is quite something else than gluttony. A glutton indulges in it and gives it a far bigger share of his attention and/or resources than he should. And not just once, but time after time. Imho, that's something else than occasionally enjoying what you do.

[Lheticus]

I find it interesting that the title "Much Less Swordfighting" doesn't use the word "much" to indicate a reduced quantity of swordfighting. Apparently, the Giant can perform minor misdirects without even TRYING, now. :smallwink:

[dancrilis]

You are deliberately painting Bandana in the worst possible light there.
Not really - I am painting her is a light that someone who she is employing after a sudden management change of personal and style might fairly view her - I could paint her worse.



1) The first example Bandana is telling Roy to hold the rope because Andi is needed at the engines. Thats efficient use of availlable resources. Had she told Andi to do something useful while the latter was still holding the rope I would agree.
Actually that one was included for completeness there was nothing wrong with it. however I will point out that Andi was actively engaged in what was likely strenuous manual labour for her.



2) You might have a point there but Bandana tells Andi to call her captain before the latter delivers the News.
It doesn't really matter - Bandana knew what Andi's job was and knew she was not swimming as they spoke, but she decided to put her in her place anyway, interrupting the status update. This was 12 hours before Tindertown.


3) Neither says anything wrong there. Andi informs Bandana that they need new parts and Bandana states that they should get them in the next port - where they had to stop anyway.

Agreed nothing wrong with this - however notice the use of Bandana rather than Captain. When Andi admits her limitations and how Bandana is important and needs to make a call (even an obvious one), Bandana is happy to let titles slip as her authority is clear via the situation. The implication is that she needs to feel important - and if the only way is to be able to demand a title she will demand it, if she feels it without the title she is happy to let ignore it.


4)All Bandana says is that the repairs will take longer because of the improvised repairs. When Andi calls her out on it she even admits that the comment was a bit unfair, but that it still is a Problem right now.
Now imagine what happened after the storm - did Andi sleep? Or was she consistently awake making minor repairs to ensure the ship stayed airborn?
We know she made a list of parts that would be needed (so a full assessment of the ships damage), we know she was repairing cracks in the hull ... my bet is awake all night. And than had the blame for the ships damage placed on her in front of strangers.


5) Anti Gnome comments aside, I think Andi overreacts there. Sure Bandana could have stayed on the ship but would it have helped? And I see nothing wrong with the captain telling a crewmember to resume her work after recieving an status update.

So a full day of overseeing multiple Gnomes where she needs to be sure that everything is does to a professional standard and where she needs to be able to repair any given part in the event of damage occurring (storms, monsters, other ships, castle defences etc). Also not all Gnomes are likely nice - and some might be employed as enemies of the Mechane (authorities, anti-pirate groups) or enemies of the Order, so she has to be aware of the threat of sabotage. Where was her 'boss' to keep an eye on things? Nowhere.
Now at the end of the daylight (but not the working day) her boss is back to give her grief despite her likely 20+hours of being on the job with many more hours to go.


And I don't think Bandana is wrong when she insists on being adressed as captain. On a ship it is important that it is clear who is in command and the titel is part of that. This isn't ust a matter of Bandanas ego.

Than how come it is only important when Bandana's ego is on the line?



I think the problem is that Bandana (rightfully to a degree) demands that Andi respects her current position on the Mechane - being called captain is part of this - but still lacks experience since this is her first commando. Andi on the other hand sees that Julio gave the ship to someone younger than her, someone she views as a inexperienced child. Now I don't know why there is bad blood between the two, but I think that Andi is wrong in the current situation because even if she doesn't respect Bandana as a captain she should at least respect that Julio choose her as his replacement.
He choose her as a stand in for while he is on holiday - she is not actually the captain (which might be what Andi is thinking 'Julio is the only Captain of the Mechane' or similar which can be difficult to change when working with someone for years), despite this Andi acknowledges it the first time the issue comes up, so afterwards Bandana is merely reinforcing what has already been confirmed by Andi.

[Shining Wrath]

Captain Scoundrel's personal sartorial adviser does sound like a more-than full time job. And good for Elan showing that he, too, has the social skills when Haley forgets to use hers.

Captain Bandanna may need to work on crew morale. Perhaps the lead mechanic might appreciate a couple of days off in the next port?


Why does Julio even have such a shirt? :smalleek:

This was an amusing update--thank you!

EDIT: Though the dynamic between Andi and Bandana is...interesting. I wonder if anything will come of it.

Indeed. Andi does not seem to recognize Bandana as legitimately the captain. And most people wouldn't describe life-or-death battle with a golem as "fun", so that's probably sarcasm, directed at her boss. I wonder if Andi thought she deserved the promotion? If so, I'd like to remind everyone of Iago's motivations in Othello.

[Shining Wrath]

I've uploaded a revised version of the strip with altered dialogue that resolves the inconsistency with #970. You may need to force reload the page to see it.

If it makes you feel better, Tolkien struggled with reconciling Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion. And he didn't have to illustrate everything.

[Tom Lehmann]

the idea to voluntarily limit one's eating even though one is still hungry, is a rather new idea.
Excess eating by the wealthy and various ways of dealing with it are not that new; Roman nobles had special rooms -- vomitoriums -- built to deal with over-eating while wanting to stay thin...

Apparently, the actual rooms built for this purpose stuff is a myth, attributed to Aldous Huxley, among others. A vomitorium is an exit from a coliseum (from the same verb, to spew forth). However, the Roman binge and purge habits among nobles is well attested, in the writings of Seneca, Suetonius, Cicero, etc.

[Shining Wrath]

Great comic with OotSy hunour all around. Thanks, Giant!

Also, I already had a suspicion Andy might be Bandana's ex, but that suspicion is slowly getting stronger. Or was it already confirmed? Either way, she's not the most likeable character so far.

I vote against this, because I don't think Andi would have left her clothes and armor in Bandana's cabin, to be later given to Haley.


"Gay is okay" is also quite a modern rhetoric. I'd argue that OotS is a modern comic against an old background.

Achilles & Patroclus. In the Illiad, one of the oldest stories.

Different cultures have had different rules about that.

[Lissou]

To the Andi-Bandanda thing, I would add that from what we've seen, Andi seems like the "grumpy but competent member of the team" kind of person. She's good at her job and she does what she's asked, but she complains. She's called Roy "Big Time Hero Guy", she's complained about gnomes, about repairs, about Bandana being a kid, etc. Right now, I don't think there necessarily is a specific animosity towards Bandana rather than a general personality clash. I think Andi's this way pretty much all the time (at least in stressful situations like we've seen her so far) and Bandana wanted everyone to treat her like a captain, and be special and everything, and Andi's just not the kind of person to do that. Which leads to tensions, which may lead to more serious conflict later on, but I don't think it's reflective of any past history between them.

[Quild]

I vote against this, because I don't think Andi would have left her clothes and armor in Bandana's cabin, to be later given to Haley.

There could be lot of reason for someone not to want to get back some stuff from his/her ex.
Like a gift you don't want anymore.
A friend got back the iPad he offered to his ex not long ago when they (she) broke up. Had no use of it since he had his own, but didn't want her to keep it.

Some people even use the same wedding ring they used or tried to use before :p

[Ron Miel]

Did Bandana trade her short sword to Haley for the dagger? I doubt the Giant would make a mistake like that.

You're new here, right?

[Itrogash]

You know, I've seen a couple of people mention this, and in fact briefly considered it myself - but after thinking about it for a moment, is there any actual reason to believe it? 959 doesn't really imply the breakup was particularly hostile, and it's really hard to imagine why she would have left her armor with Bandana while staying on the same ship.

She wouldn't have to be the same ex, would she? It's entirely plausible that Bandana had had a number of girlfriends (and without even having to delve in pirate stereotypes!).

[Lathund]

Achilles & Patroclus. In the Illiad, one of the oldest stories.

Different cultures have had different rules about that.

Could be me, but I wasn't under the impression that OotS is set in something approaching classical Greece.

Yes, there have been various views on homosexuality. But I think that most opinions that we consider 'modern' could be found somewhere in history. That doesn't make them any less modern.

People consider kale to be hipster food. Kale! If there's one vegetable that I associate with old people and old habits, it's kale. Well, that and brussel sprouts. Nothing is ever truly hip, modern or new, least of all kale.

[Kantaki]

So a full day of overseeing multiple Gnomes where she needs to be sure that everything is does to a professional standard and where she needs to be able to repair any given part in the event of damage occurring (storms, monsters, other ships, castle defences etc). Also not all Gnomes are likely nice - and some might be employed as enemies of the Mechane (authorities, anti-pirate groups) or enemies of the Order, so she has to be aware of the threat of sabotage. Where was her 'boss' to keep an eye on things? Nowhere.
Now at the end of the daylight (but not the working day) her boss is back to give her grief despite her likely 20+hours of being on the job with many more hours to go.


Than how come it is only important when Bandana's ego is on the line?


He choose her as a stand in for while he is on holiday - she is not actually the captain (which might be what Andi is thinking 'Julio is the only Captain of the Mechane' or similar which can be difficult to change when working with someone for years), despite this Andi acknowledges it the first time the issue comes up, so afterwards Bandana is merely reinforcing what has already been confirmed by Andi.

It was a full day already? Didn't they just eat brunch? But yes I admit that Bandana should have stayed on the ship during the repairs. On the other hand Andi might have taken that as a Statement of distrust.

Sure Bandana only insists on the title of captain when she feels disrespected, but this is her first round as a captain and as a stand in for an famous sky pirate, I think it is natural to feel a bit insecure in this situation.

And it shouldn't matter that the position is only temporary - the guy or gal in command of the ship is called captain.

I'm not saying Andy is wrong there but I think neither is Bandana. One is annoyed that a younger coworker is put in charge and the other is still a bit in secure about her new position of power.

[Psyren]

Again, Bandana is showing a lack of empathy here herself. Andi has been working nonstop all day until nightfall and also supervising an excitable gaggle of staff likely with cultural gaps. Knowing stereotypical gnome engineers, they were probably criticizing Andi's work all day long too. A good leader would expect there to be some raw nerves on their star player, especially when pretty much everyone else got to have shore leave and she didn't. Bringing her back a souvenir or even some dinner would have been a nice gesture and show Bandana's appreciation. I can't blame Andi for being a little prickly right now. And all that is on top of, and reinforcing, the "you're not my REAL Mom Captain" no-confidence issue that already appears to exist between them.

[LordRahl6]

I like how Elan sums up this strip being about how they are headed into colder environments then we've seen the OotSers in yet.:smallcool:

[Doug Lampert]

<Shrug> To me it came across as simply reminding Andi that Bandana IS currently the Captain. Bandana was in a fight with a golem, after all, it wasn't like she was sunning herself on a deckchair while the crew worked.

She was off doing almost exactly the sort of thing Julio would have done as captain, having an adventure with the week's guest stars.

That's the Captain's JOB on a ship like the Mechane, and Bandana was hard at work at it.


Achilles & Patroclus. In the Illiad, one of the oldest stories.

Different cultures have had different rules about that.

GIlgamesh and Enkidu literally the oldest story we know, and from a different culture.


Could be me, but I wasn't under the impression that OotS is set in something approaching classical Greece.

Yes, there have been various views on homosexuality. But I think that most opinions that we consider 'modern' could be found somewhere in history. That doesn't make them any less modern.
Nor does something being "modern" in your sense make it at all out of place in a pantheistic culture. There have been a great many non-modern cultures with this trait you claim is modern, I think it's likely that more non-modern cultures had this trait than not. It's just that the culture I'm descended from (and probably yours too) was quite intolerant in this aspect that makes it even worth discussion to us.

[Bulldog Psion]

Great Pelor's nostril hairs, is the only reason why someone could have a reaction to another person something to do with schtupping them, to borrow a bit of Belkarism here?

All the speculation about Andi disliking Bandana because they were formerly shtupping and now are no longer ... dang, I need a facepalm or a headdesk smiley.

Honestly, I've met people I disliked without needing to shtup them first, have an desire to shtup them under any circumstances, or even think of the possibility of shtupping them. Sometimes, people just dislike each other. In fact, it seems to happen quite commonly; a neutral reaction seems most common, but I wouldn't call personal dislike something rare or requiring a sexual explanation.

It's like V's Belkar chart is being used as a serious psychological guide to character interactions in the comic. Actually, now that I think of that, it's kind of hilarious. :smallbiggrin: So I think I'll replace my generalized facepalm with a generalized amused grin. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Edit: gadzooks, I managed to misspell "shtup."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But you're making it sound like Bandana's completely unreasonable and Andi's completely reasonable and I have to disagree with that.

This is essentially my position. Looking at the analysis of the situation again, I will grant that Bandana's comments about Andi's repairs as well as desire to lead could run Andi the wrong way. However, I also think Andi is being rather obtuse and unwilling to give Bandana the benefit of the doubt.

[kivzirrum]

It's like V's Belkar chart is being used as a serious psychological guide to character interactions in the comic. Actually, now that I think of that, it's kind of hilarious. :smallbiggrin: So I think I'll replace my generalized facepalm with a generalized amused grin. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Who knows, maybe there was more validity to that chart than was thought!


This is essentially my position. Looking at the analysis of the situation again, I will grant that Bandana's comments about Andi's repairs as well as desire to lead could run Andi the wrong way. However, I also think Andi is being rather obtuse and unwilling to give Bandana the benefit of the doubt.

Pretty much this. I don't think it's as complicated as them being former lovers. Andi's being stubborn, but Bandana is maybe being a bit too authoritative, especially for someone who's recently been promoted.

[Gift Jeraff]

Julio was captain of the ship for as long or longer than most of the current crew has been alive. It doesn't surprise me that there are crew members like Andi uncomfortable giving the same level of respect to someone they've always viewed as an equal or less.

Also, the world within the world is an alternate timeline where last night's version of the strip is canon.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It'd be worth summoning a fire elemental just to get rid of that shirt. The rest of the outfit would be bonus points.

[dancrilis]

It was a full day already?
It is difficult to tell.

In 948 there was a storm - that was dealt with and repairs were under way by 961 when Roy confirms that is is dusk, on 963 there is a very clear moon in the last panel (and a darker sky than for the storm - which may be due to artistic lack of clouds I suppose, with clouds at night having light for contrast), than on 964 the moon is clearly gone and the sky is much lighter, the moon remains gone for the day until 988 where the moon is back.

Ballparking all that I figured the storm started a little before midnight, they travelled through the night and than were in town shopping, walking between temples, fighting thieves, eating etc for most of the day, leaving us at the start of night time again.

But that is a lot of assumptions on my part for that - minimum Andi has likely been working 12+ hours with at least an expected total work time of 24 hours (midnight to midnight and the crew taking off at 00:00:01 after repairs).


Sure Bandana only insists on the title of captain when she feels disrespected, but this is her first round as a captain and as a stand in for an famous sky pirate, I think it is natural to feel a bit insecure in this situation.
Natural and understandable response does not mean best response. Bandana is in charge (so she keeps pointing out) it is her job to demonstrate confidence and security even when she does not feel it.


And it shouldn't matter that the position is only temporary - the guy or gal in command of the ship is called captain.
So was Andi 'Captain Andi' when Bandana was away as they presumably had command?
Frankly this might just be my attitude a bit - I refer to people how I like (normally first name when addressing them directly) regardless of who they are in my life or in society. My father (who I call be his first name) got in trouble for this same trait in america a few years ago - apparently americans do not like there president begin called solely by their first name.
So I find it easy to side with Andi (who I will point out is only using that name to be more personal - Bandana would likely not appreciate if she decided that Bandana should refer to her as Andromeda where others could use the nickname).


I need a facepalm or a headdesk smiley.

Headdesk: http://japologism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/headdesk.gif
Facepalm: http://www.agetec.org/debate/wp-content/facepalm-smiley-gif-5413.gif

[Shining Wrath]

Could be me, but I wasn't under the impression that OotS is set in something approaching classical Greece.

Yes, there have been various views on homosexuality. But I think that most opinions that we consider 'modern' could be found somewhere in history. That doesn't make them any less modern.

People consider kale to be hipster food. Kale! If there's one vegetable that I associate with old people and old habits, it's kale. Well, that and brussel sprouts. Nothing is ever truly hip, modern or new, least of all kale.

Neither is the Illiad set in Classical Greece; it's set 500 years before Classical Greece.

OotS is also not set in anything approaching a North American / European culture embedded in the Judeo-Christian tradition. If you want to look across the world in the 20th century, there were places where gay was OK. In fact, there were subcultures in the US and Europe where it was OK; the phrase "Boston Marriage" comes to mind.

[CheesePirate]

Excess eating by the wealthy and various ways of dealing with it are not that new; Roman nobles had special rooms -- vomitoriums -- built to deal with over-eating while wanting to stay thin...

A vomitorium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomitorium) has nothing to do with over-eating or vomiting.

[Bulldog Psion]

It'd be worth summoning a fire elemental just to get rid of that shirt. The rest of the outfit would be bonus points.

Funniest thing I've read on here all day! :smallwink: Worth summoning a fire elemental -- I love it! :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

A vomitorium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomitorium) has nothing to do with over-eating or vomiting.

Well if you want to get technical, it was called such because it would "spew forth" large crowds, IE it would vomit them out.

However yes, it has nothing to do with food.

[kivzirrum]

A vomitorium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomitorium) has nothing to do with over-eating or vomiting.

Indeed, to the best of my knowledge binging/purging was not any kind of traditional Roman custom. No idea where that misconception stems from (I'm sure those more learned than I may know).

[chy03001]

Is it just me, or is there some history between Andi and Bandana?

[Murk]

Indeed, to the best of my knowledge binging/purging was not any kind of traditional Roman custom. No idea where that misconception stems from (I'm sure those more learned than I may know).

Probably from Nero. The dude bit of bodyparts of slaves dressed as lions. He burned Christians to light his garden. He entered parties hidden in the bull they were about to eat.
That guy took a big part of all gross stereotypes about Romans. He did have a fun life, though.

[dancrilis]

Indeed, to the best of my knowledge binging/purging was not any kind of traditional Roman custom. No idea where that misconception stems from (I'm sure those more learned than I may know).

Seneca the Younger, I believe and his talk of:


When we recline at a banquet, one [slave] wipes up the spittle; another, situated beneath, collects the leavings [vomit] of the drunks

However whether he is being misquoted or quoted out of context I would not know - and I believe that even were I to locate him he would be unresponsive to my queries.

[Keltest]

Seneca the Younger, I believe and his talk of:


However whether he is being misquoted or quoted out of context I would not know - and I believe that even were I to locate him he would be unresponsive to my queries.

I don't think vomiting while drunk has anything to do with being Roman.

[Amphiox]

It is always unwise to assume that any custom or attitude or practice shown in a work of fiction in a made up universe is a reflection of "modern" times, when you consider the sheer number of ancient cultures, over the entire expanse of human history that an author can draw on for parallels.

The Romans had celebrity endorsements for commercial products, as well as fast food kiosks, for example.

[Anarion]

Random thing, but does the way the font is placed in the speech bubble make anyone else think that Bandana is saying "boatbad" instead of "boatload?"

Regardless, that Julio outfit is hideous and I no longer understand anything about the Dashing Swordsman class.

[D.One]

Regardless, that Julio outfit is hideous and I no longer understand anything about the Dashing Swordsman class.

At level 6 of Dashing Swordman, the character gains the "Staff" feat, a special version of the Leadership feat, that, instead of cohorts and followers, makes the character attract a group of personal assistants to manage all the minor details a great star needs not to get involved with, like wardrobe, scenario, makeup, lighting, soundtrack...

[Snails]

Felix is right. That jacket is not up to the occasion, nor the boots.

[Basement Cat]

You're new here, right?

Shows, huh? I get your point, though.:smalltongue:

What I should have said was that I doubted Rich would have forgotten (so soon) that Bandana got the sword and Haley got the dagger .

[Snails]

For a sartorial advisor, Felix's own wardrobe is underwhelming. Maybe a case of "the cobblers' children" here?

[Kantaki]

Probably from Nero. The dude bit of bodyparts of slaves dressed as lions. He burned Christians to light his garden. He entered parties hidden in the bull they were about to eat.
That guy took a big part of all gross stereotypes about Romans. He did have a fun life, though.

I'm pretty sure Nero was wearing the Lionsuit not the slaves. Otherwise that stuff should be right. I mean I remember reading worse Storys about this guy. There is a reason the whole playing music while Rome burns thing sounds believeable. But his last words where great. "The world loses an great artist with me." Or something like that. The only thing I want to know is who he was talking about.

[Gnoman]

Agreed nothing wrong with this - however notice the use of Bandana rather than Captain. When Andi admits her limitations and how Bandana is important and needs to make a call (even an obvious one), Bandana is happy to let titles slip as her authority is clear via the situation. The implication is that she needs to feel important - and if the only way is to be able to demand a title she will demand it, if she feels it without the title she is happy to let ignore it.


A ship where the Captain does not have clear and unquestioned authority is called a wreck. If Bandana was acting in any other manner, it would be proof that she was unworthy of command, particularly since the title of Captain is the only authority she has - she's not been in command long enough to have built up personal loyalty or develop a "I'll follow you to the gates of hell" force of personality.

[Bulldog Psion]

For a sartorial advisor, Felix's own wardrobe is underwhelming. Maybe a case of "the cobblers' children" here?

Probably deliberately understated so as not to distract from the splendor of the people he's dressed up.

[littlebum2002]

A ship where the Captain does not have clear and unquestioned authority is called a wreck. If Bandana was acting in any other manner, it would be proof that she was unworthy of command, particularly since the title of Captain is the only authority she has - she's not been in command long enough to have built up personal loyalty or develop a "I'll follow you to the gates of hell" force of personality.

This is all true, but also remember that Bandana is coming on board talking about the great adventure they had1, and how much fun it was, while Andi was stuck supervising a bunch of "grubby little gnomes". I'd be upset, too.

Of course, when your captain is Julio Scoundrel, you kinda expect to be stuck on board the ship sometimes while he goes on some crazy adventure, but it's different when it's your co-shipmate having fun while you're stuck at home. I'm sure this will be different when everyone is used to Bandana being captain, but right now the general sentiment must be "why does she get to go have all the fun while we're stuck here?"



1 Yes, they almost died, but that's just part of being an adventurer. If anything, that makes it more exciting

[kivzirrum]

For a sartorial advisor, Felix's own wardrobe is underwhelming. Maybe a case of "the cobblers' children" here?

Oh, I don't know--there's something stylish about a flowing, open shirt like that!

... Or maybe I'm just biased due to my own tendency to wear such shirts.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh, I don't know--there's something stylish about a flowing, open shirt like that!

... Or maybe I'm just biased due to my own tendency to wear such shirts.

Note how his headband always matches his shorts, while his open-to-the-navel (or, considering he's a sailor, naval) shirt is of a contrasting color.

Felix elegant in Felix's simplicity. :smallbiggrin:

[Hawkstar]

I think the main source of contention between Andi and Bandana is really just resentment/envy. Andi's probably been working under Scoundrel for just as long as Bandana, and until recently, they were equal status. And now Bandana's in charge, and he's doing all the work.

[littlebum2002]

Note how his headband always matches his shorts, while his open-to-the-navel (or, considering he's a sailor, naval) shirt is of a contrasting color.

Felix elegant in Felix's simplicity. :smallbiggrin:

His headband is red and his shorts are black.

[Kantaki]

I think the main source of contention between Andi and Bandana is really just resentment/envy. Andi's probably been working under Scoundrel for just as long as Bandana, and until recently, they were equal status. And now Bandana's in charge, and he's doing all the work.

Wow, first Andromeda has to deal with a kid as captain and now she is called a man? That is harsh, really harsh. Poor Girl.:smallbiggrin:

[veti]

Andi's being stubborn, but Bandana is maybe being a bit too authoritative, especially for someone who's recently been promoted.

Quite the opposite, I think - Bandana's not being authoritative enough. "OK, then, carry on, I guess" is not the sort of decisive, she-knows-what-she's-doing order you want to hear from your commanding officer.

It's an easy mistake for a rookie commander to make, if she hasn't been properly trained. Her underlings need to have faith that she knows more than they do about what's going to happen next; that's very hard to cultivate if you talk to them like an equal, as if you don't know any more than they do.

[Snails]

Probably deliberately understated so as not to distract from the splendor of the people he's dressed up.

Probably. But with his handsome ebony skin, he could easily pull off that polka dot shirt. With Julio not on panel, seems like wasted fashion potential.

[dancrilis]

A ship where the Captain does not have clear and unquestioned authority is called a wreck. If Bandana was acting in any other manner, it would be proof that she was unworthy of command, particularly since the title of Captain is the only authority she has - she's not been in command long enough to have built up personal loyalty or develop a "I'll follow you to the gates of hell" force of personality.

A flying ship crashes to the ground/water is called a wreck - one of the two characters prevented that and it wasn't Bandana.

Also to reference Xykon "Authority, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just have. If you can lose it by having someone not acknowledge it, you never really had any authority in the first place, see what I'm saying?".

By demanding that her title is referenced like this she does not build herself up she tears the title down.
Frankly if I were Andi I would be inclined to respond with something along the lines of:
Andi <big happy smile>: "Yip your the captain, and who's a good captain? who's a good captain? You are!".

Respect is not in a title, and trying to demand it from the title doesn't do the demander any good.

[Lathund]

Nor does something being "modern" in your sense make it at all out of place in a pantheistic culture. There have been a great many non-modern cultures with this trait you claim is modern, I think it's likely that more non-modern cultures had this trait than not. It's just that the culture I'm descended from (and probably yours too) was quite intolerant in this aspect that makes it even worth discussion to us.

Oh, my point wasn't at all about whether it's out of place or not. My point was about the work of the Giant, who consciously or not incorporates modern contemporaty subjects into his comic. Specifically, modern contemporaty outlooks on body image.

I'm not sure I completely agree with you about the rest of this quote btw, but I'd rather keep that can of worms closed.


Neither is the Illiad set in Classical Greece; it's set 500 years before Classical Greece.

Didn't know that, thanks.


OotS is also not set in anything approaching a North American / European culture embedded in the Judeo-Christian tradition. If you want to look across the world in the 20th century, there were places where gay was OK. In fact, there were subcultures in the US and Europe where it was OK; the phrase "Boston Marriage" comes to mind.

I agree, although the average D&D adventure/world/setting does heavily tap into that, as far as I can tell - except it's usually pantheistic. OotS, in my perception, is not too different from those average settings, so by extrapolation I'm expecting more or less the same. Technology-wise, I associate it with something in the 1400s-1600s. But then with magic. Lots of magic.

Also, I'm not from the USA, so the phrase you mention is unfamiliar to me.


It is always unwise to assume that any custom or attitude or practice shown in a work of fiction in a made up universe is a reflection of "modern" times, when you consider the sheer number of ancient cultures, over the entire expanse of human history that an author can draw on for parallels.

The Romans had celebrity endorsements for commercial products, as well as fast food kiosks, for example.

That's pretty funny actually. I'm going to remember that.

[Themrys]

Probably deliberately understated so as not to distract from the splendor of the people he's dressed up.

I don't know. He's just a stick figure, so it's hard to tell, but that open shirt may be very flattering to his figure. Maybe he's rather trying to not distract from his splendid body?

[Tom Lehmann]

A vomitorium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomitorium) has nothing to do with over-eating or vomiting.

Yes; upon doing some research, you are correct. Apparently, the actual rooms built for this purpose stuff is a modern made up myth, attributed to Aldous Huxley, among others. A vomitorium is an exit from a coliseum (from the same verb, to spew forth).

However, the Roman binge and purge habits among nobles is well attested, in the writings of Seneca, Suetonius, Cicero, etc.

The myth is the purpose-built rooms; not the noble eating habits.

[Gnoman]

A flying ship crashes to the ground/water is called a wreck - one of the two characters prevented that and it wasn't Bandana.

Also to reference Xykon "Authority, it isn't something that you put on or take off like a jacket. It's something you just have. If you can lose it by having someone not acknowledge it, you never really had any authority in the first place, see what I'm saying?".

By demanding that her title is referenced like this she does not build herself up she tears the title down.
Frankly if I were Andi I would be inclined to respond with something along the lines of:
Andi <big happy smile>: "Yip your the captain, and who's a good captain? who's a good captain? You are!".

Respect is not in a title, and trying to demand it from the title doesn't do the demander any good.

No, Bandana saved the ship, by giving orders to everyone that were obeyed immediately and without question. If Roy had hesitated when asked to hold a rope, everyone could very easily have died. A ship's fate rests with her captain, and if anyone views that captain as anything but their Lord and Master Before The Gods, the ship is doomed. Bandana doesn't have years of personal authority, she doesn't have a reputation as a commander, she has only her rank, but that is enough.

[Hamiltonz]

in the seventh panel "I...appreciate your efforts..." "It was really hard to find...in...existing color schemes."

It's probably because of the side project my wife and I spent six months on, but I think I'm the only one that saw this as a lampshade on how difficult it was for the Giant to find a good color in the palette for the winter gear.

[Keltest]

in the seventh panel "I...appreciate your efforts..." "It was really hard to find...in...existing color schemes."

It's probably because of the side project my wife and I spent six months on, but I think I'm the only one that saw this as a lampshade on how difficult it was for the Giant to find a good color in the palette for the winter gear.

My forum-foo is not enough to link it here in visible format, however there is already a wallpaper with the main cast in winter gear.

[Hamiltonz]

Ah, but is that in the same palette? If it's for a print run then the answer is no.

[kivzirrum]

Quite the opposite, I think - Bandana's not being authoritative enough. "OK, then, carry on, I guess" is not the sort of decisive, she-knows-what-she's-doing order you want to hear from your commanding officer.

It's an easy mistake for a rookie commander to make, if she hasn't been properly trained. Her underlings need to have faith that she knows more than they do about what's going to happen next; that's very hard to cultivate if you talk to them like an equal, as if you don't know any more than they do.

Hmm, okay, perhaps authoritative in the wrong way. Or officious without being truly authoritative?

Heck, I don't know. My inherent and all-consuming disrespect for authority makes it difficult to judge adequately the proper word for Bandana's attitude, perhaps :smallbiggrin:

[kivzirrum]

Yes; upon doing some research, you are correct. Apparently, the actual rooms built for this purpose stuff is a modern made up myth, attributed to Aldous Huxley, among others. A vomitorium is an exit from a coliseum (from the same verb, to spew forth).

However, the Roman binge and purge habits among nobles is well attested, in the writings of Seneca, Suetonius, Cicero, etc.

The myth is the purpose-built rooms; not the noble eating habits.

Really? I admit that Ancient Rome is not my area of historical expertise, but I was under the impression that the commonality of the binge/purge thing was equally a myth.

[Ron Miel]

My forum-foo is not enough to link it here in visible format, however there is already a wallpaper with the main cast in winter gear.

Here you go.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/GiantInThePlayground_Wallpapers/WinterWallpaper_2880x1800.png

[jere7my]

Really? I admit that Ancient Rome is not my area of historical expertise, but I was under the impression that the commonality of the binge/purge thing was equally a myth.

My wife, chair of the classics department at a major Boston university, concurs.

[unbeliever536]

There have always been homosexual people, and there likely always have been people with an opinion on homosexuality.

However, the idea to voluntarily limit one's eating even though one is still hungry, is a rather new idea. As is the idea to make up for it with exercise. Individual people may have felt the need to limit their eating, but the guilt-rhetoric needs a dominant skinny beauty ideal to flourish. And I didn't see proof of such an ideal before. (Everyone except the Empress looks thin, but as they're stick figures that doesn't mean too much)

Ah, well. Maybe we'll learn of the one time Bandana put everyone's lives at risk because she was too fat to fit through a tunnel, or the like. That would explain the guilt. :smallwink:

There are magazines that rank people by sexiness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) and fanclubs for celebrity personalities. It's an easy assumption that the rest of our absurd celebrity culture (including the requirements of thinness and attractiveness for all the people around them) carries over as well.

Also too, it doesn't make a ton of sense that Andi would be Bandanna's ex. I mean, the Giant wrote 959 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html) the way he did specifically to avoid having to deal with the character "Bandanna's girlfriend" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18328205&postcount=85). This is starting to remind me of the crap that went on with Laurin. Also the crap that's going on now with Veldrina.

[hagnat]

Such a meta joke gone to waste

Should Andi be the one named Felix, he would be Fix'it Felix :/

[Shining Wrath]

Such a meta joke gone to waste

Should Andi be the one named Felix, he would be Fix'it Felix :/

*Sigh*

The appeal of "Handy Andi" is lost on you, I take it?

[Amphiox]

This issue of authority flows both ways, however. A clear chain of command is vital for the proper functioning of the ship, and all members of the crew are responsible for preserving that chain of command.

Bandana's authority flows straight from Julio, as he was the one, in full accordance with his role as captain, who designated her as acting captain in his absence.

When Andi refuses to acknowledge Bandana's position, she flouts not only Bandana's authority, but Julio's as well.

There is also the impact that seeing Andi's clear lack of confidence in Bandana might have on the REST of the crew, and their confidence in Bandana's leadership, and how that might impact overall crew morale and performance as well. Whatever Andi's private feelings about Bandana's leadership abilities might be, it is her duty to keep that private so long as she is on duty.

This is a major breach of professionalism on Andi's part, and Bandana is fully within her rights to call her out on it.

[IamWeasel]

I am going to go along with the "Andi is just grumpy and snarky" hypothesis right now. I don't think there is tension, it's my impression that Bandana just understands Andi's personality.

I am also inclined to believe that ships have some sort of hierarchy. Captain, First Mate...I don't know what comes next but I think I am good on my first 2 guesses and that means Andi has been taking orders from Bandana all along, just usually passed down from Julio. Julio didn't just promote crewman #7 to Captain his ship. It's appropriate for the Captain to be called the Captain and it may take an adjustment period for some to remember diligently.

[Takver]

This issue of authority flows both ways, however. A clear chain of command is vital for the proper functioning of the ship, and all members of the crew are responsible for preserving that chain of command.

[...]

This is a major breach of professionalism on Andi's part, and Bandana is fully within her rights to call her out on it.

I completely agree. I can understand why Andi might have some serious misgivings about Bandana as captain (youth/inexperience, letting a vampire stay on board) but if she's deliberately refusing to call Bandana captain, and I think this strip implies that she is, it's disrespectful and downright dangerous. This ship is not on a scenic voyage. They're on a mission to save the world. And they don't know it yet, but before they get to the main mission, they're going to bring an ill-intentioned vampire to a top-secret meeting of high-level clerics. Both Bandana and the crew need to be certain of Bandana's authority on the ship--anything less is not safe.

I actually agree with other posters that Bandana is not blameless in her interactions with Andi. But:

1) Andi is still responsible for letting her bad attitude show;

2) Bandana would be irresponsible to let the "Captain" thing slide; she's doing the right thing by calling Andi on it; and

3) Regardless of whose fault it is, Andi's open disrespect for Bandana is a very ominous situation, which is why we're seeing it.

[Fawkes]

I've uploaded a revised version of the strip with altered dialogue that resolves the inconsistency with #970. You may need to force reload the page to see it.

Does anyone know what the comic originally said? Apparently there were some major dialog changes.

[hamishspence]

Does anyone know what the comic originally said? Apparently there were some major dialog changes.

From page 1 of the thread:


There's something I'm curious about:

In #970 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), Bandana says that Elan and Haley should invest in some cold weather gear since they're heading up north in the winter. Elan says he assumed that Durkon would just cast Endure Elements on them every morning, like he did in the desert, but Haley says it would be better not to rely on it in case Durkon needs those spell slots to fight Xykon.

But here we have Haley saying "Durkon has been casting Endure Elements on us every day" and "I just thought we'd keep doing that." Just something that has me scratching my head.

Regardless, the visual gag and Bandana's punchline are solid gold. I love me some Julio Scoundrel.

[M.A.D]

Wait, are we talking about Felix, or the captain? :smallwink:

[dancrilis]

No, Bandana saved the ship, by giving orders to everyone that were obeyed immediately and without question.
Questionable orders. She told Felix (who is a sartorial advisor and trained as a pilot) to assess the damage to the engines - who took Elan (who is a Bard and has demonstrated no knowledge of engine awareness) with him to help with this assessment. She did this despite knowing that she was going to invalidate the order in a few seconds anyway.
The told Hood Man to undertake two separate actions - clear the hold and level the ship (might have been nice for a priority order there - or maybe for a pilot to level the ship), than she became confrontational with Roy for no reason a simple "come with me and hold this rope" would have sufficed - and would have presumably given Andi the order to fix the Engine except that Andi was already gone while she talked to Roy - presumably to fix the engine.
When Andi got to the engine she would have found Felix and Elan assessing it and would have - at best got a very brief update on it which she would have seen for her self anyway, and at worst had to listen to them talk about unrelated matters relating to puppets and fashion while in her way - and set them to actually doing repairs.



This issue of authority flows both ways, however. A clear chain of command is vital for the proper functioning of the ship, and all members of the crew are responsible for preserving that chain of command.
I don't know if the chaotic neutral Julio would have bothered with a clear change of command and not a general cult of personality.


When Andi refuses to acknowledge Bandana's position, she flouts not only Bandana's authority, but Julio's as well.
She did acknowledge her as captain - 952 panel 1 and has followed her orders as needed, consistent demands for reinforcement of such serves only to antagonise Andi and sooth Bandana's ego.


There is also the impact that seeing Andi's clear lack of confidence in Bandana might have on the REST of the crew, and their confidence in Bandana's leadership, and how that might impact overall crew morale and performance as well. Whatever Andi's private feelings about Bandana's leadership abilities might be, it is her duty to keep that private so long as she is on duty.
It is Andi's job to repair the ship - it is Bandana's job to maintain crew performance, (of which morale is a part).
If Bandana believes that Andi is detrimental to the crews performance she could likely ask her to take a leave of absence until Julio returns - I doubt the pirate crew have firm contracts in place about such things.
However whether the rest of the crew would than feel like taking a leave of absence until Julio returns would be up to them.



This is a major breach of professionalism on Andi's part, and Bandana is fully within her rights to call her out on it.
We might see that in the future - but it is Bandana that is creating a hostile work environment not Andi, Andi is doing her job while Bandana swans around town with her friends.

[dtilque]

About the overeating comment: could this be an airship crew aesthetic issue? That is, among such crews, it's considered bad form to be even a bit overweight, since weight is an important factor in the performance of the ship. An overweight crew member might get comments about carrying around too much ballast or something. Just an idea.

As far as Bandana-Andi thing, while it's important that Andi acknowledge Bandana's authority, Bandana needs to show more appreciation of the work done by her crew. Command is a two-way street and B is not doing a really great job of it so far.

[Tom Lehmann]

Really? I admit that Ancient Rome is not my area of historical expertise, but I was under the impression that the commonality of the binge/purge thing was equally a myth.
Here is a link (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2421/were-there-really-vomitoriums-in-ancient-rome) to one discussion of both issues that includes two quotes from Roman authors about binging/purging. Judge for yourself.

[Clistenes]

Andi <big happy smile>: "Yip your the captain, and who's a good captain? who's a good captain? You are!".

And by doing that she's undermining the captain's authority, encouraging others to disobey, making the crew unable to work together and screwing the ship, herself included.

If you don't like how the steering wheel of your car works, you try to find another car or to replace the wheel, but you don't pull out the wheel and throw it while the car is running.

If Andi were to undermine Bandana's authority like that, Bandana would have no choice but to put her into her place or to get rid of her, because she can't be the captain otherwise.


Respect is not in a title, and trying to demand it from the title doesn't do the demander any good.

You are mistaking discipline for respect. You can't demand respect, but you can demand discipline. You may think that your captain, commander, boss or teacher is useless, but if you disrupt the teamwork by preventing them to do their job, you are making things worse for everybody. That's the reason captains and commanders exist in first place.

[goodpeople25]

Questionable orders. She told Felix (who is a sartorial advisor and trained as a pilot) to assess the damage to the engines - who took Elan (who is a Bard and has demonstrated no knowledge of engine awareness) with him to help with this assessment. She did this despite knowing that she was going to invalidate the order in a few seconds anyway.
The told Hood Man to undertake two separate actions - clear the hold and level the ship (might have been nice for a priority order there - or maybe for a pilot to level the ship), than she became confrontational with Roy for no reason a simple "come with me and hold this rope" would have sufficed - and would have presumably given Andi the order to fix the Engine except that Andi was already gone while she talked to Roy - presumably to fix the engine.
When Andi got to the engine she would have found Felix and Elan assessing it and would have - at best got a very brief update on it which she would have seen for her self anyway, and at worst had to listen to them talk about unrelated matters relating to puppets and fashion while in her way - and set them to actually doing repairs.
We might see that in the future - but it is Bandana that is creating a hostile work environment not Andi, Andi is doing her job while Bandana swans around town with her friends.

I am not sure what you seem to have agaisnt bandana or chain of command, but how do you know that felix dosen't know how to check how much damage something took he certainly seemed to know in comic #949 and after that he seemed to go to work fixing stuff with elan on the quarter-deck nowhere does it imply andi told them to do it. (Also we don't even know if felix knows how to fly the ship or trained as a pilot.) And the order to hood man is giving him 2 tasks that have equal priority, also you seem to forget that one of the most impornant parts of being in command is delegating, even delegating the delegating, so hood man is probaly going to pass on orders to level the ship and having him delgate is a good idea as he is clearing out everyone that is not on deck anyway. And felix telling andi the damage is a good thing as it allows her to 1 have a second opinon and 2 he may know things she doesn't like where the lightning hit or prior readings from the instruments.
Also why isn't bandana allowed to take a break when she has literally nothing to do Andi is the only one who needs to be working a non engineer is not going to be much help. And just because you do your job dosen't mean you get to snark about it to your commander or ignore Rank especially if they don't appreciate it and have told you to call you by your rank before.
Also when not having to command the ship, accompanying her guests when asked arguably is the captains job and following the previous Captians orders to help the Order.
On the rest of your arguments the chain of command is important, even if you can't respect the person you still have to at least nominally respect their rank. I speak from experience on this.

[Xihirli]

Questionable orders. She told Felix (who is a sartorial advisor and trained as a pilot) to assess the damage to the engines - who took Elan (who is a Bard and has demonstrated no knowledge of engine awareness) with him to help with this assessment. She did this despite knowing that she was going to invalidate the order in a few seconds anyway.
The told Hood Man to undertake two separate actions - clear the hold and level the ship (might have been nice for a priority order there - or maybe for a pilot to level the ship), than she became confrontational with Roy for no reason a simple "come with me and hold this rope" would have sufficed - and would have presumably given Andi the order to fix the Engine except that Andi was already gone while she talked to Roy - presumably to fix the engine.
When Andi got to the engine she would have found Felix and Elan assessing it and would have - at best got a very brief update on it which she would have seen for her self anyway, and at worst had to listen to them talk about unrelated matters relating to puppets and fashion while in her way - and set them to actually doing repairs.



I don't know if the chaotic neutral Julio would have bothered with a clear change of command and not a general cult of personality.


She did acknowledge her as captain - 952 panel 1 and has followed her orders as needed, consistent demands for reinforcement of such serves only to antagonise Andi and sooth Bandana's ego.


It is Andi's job to repair the ship - it is Bandana's job to maintain crew performance, (of which morale is a part).
If Bandana believes that Andi is detrimental to the crews performance she could likely ask her to take a leave of absence until Julio returns - I doubt the pirate crew have firm contracts in place about such things.
However whether the rest of the crew would than feel like taking a leave of absence until Julio returns would be up to them.


We might see that in the future - but it is Bandana that is creating a hostile work environment not Andi, Andi is doing her job while Bandana swans around town with her friends.

Elan has mending, which helped to fix the engines.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html





Also, I'm not from the USA, so the phrase you mention is unfamiliar to me.

Boston Marriages were from the USA. They were events where women were married, but it was supposed to be a sisterhood thing. There was a similar thing for guys under a different name. "brother-making."

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-08/uocp-acu082307.php

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/06/13/uncommon-household-the-history-early-american-same-sex-marriage/oGJ3H6xZtluQUhvdJnR94M/story.html

[dancrilis]

If Andi were to undermine Bandana's authority like that, Bandana would have no choice but to put her into her place or to get rid of her, because she can't be the captain otherwise.
If Andi is pushed to the level of undermining Bandana like that than the blame falls on Bandana. She has a competent employee that follows her orders - and she is quibbling on a title.



That's the reason captains and commanders exist in first place.
And that reason is to keep everything running smoothly - pissing off members of the team goes against that aim.


I am not sure what you seem to have agaisnt bandana or chain of command,
Nothing against either.


but how do you know that felix dosen't know how to check how much damage something took he certainly seemed to know in comic #949 and after that he seemed to go to work fixing stuff with elan on the quarter-deck
He was not ordered to fix things - he was ordered to assess, so either he ignored that and started fixing, or when Andi showed up she got him to help with her fixing.


nowhere does it imply andi told them to do it.
Andi was the one that was needed to fix it (or so say Bandana), as such Felix was either assisting her or he was undertaking other repairs on his own initiative.


(Also we don't even know if felix knows how to fly the ship or trained as a pilot.)
According to Bandana he is "Frankly, it is a testament to his work ethic that he even had time to learn how to fly the ship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html)".



Also why isn't bandana allowed to take a break when she has literally nothing to do Andi is the only one who needs to be working a non engineer is not going to be much help.
To quote myself:


So a full day of overseeing multiple Gnomes where she needs to be sure that everything is does to a professional standard and where she needs to be able to repair any given part in the event of damage occurring (storms, monsters, other ships, castle defences etc). Also not all Gnomes are likely nice - and some might be employed as enemies of the Mechane (authorities, anti-pirate groups) or enemies of the Order, so she has to be aware of the threat of sabotage. Where was her 'boss' to keep an eye on things? Nowhere.

Bandana could have been assisting with ensuring that none of the Gnomes were up to no good.


And just because you do your job dosen't mean you get to snark about it to your commander or ignore Rank especially if they don't appreciate it and have told you to call you by your rank before.
Depending on the kind of operation that the Choatic Neutral Captain Julio Scoundrél ran this could be a highly different environment than Andi signed up for - a new boss (even if they are not new to the team) needs to learn how to manage the team and adapt to them, teams will often cut a new boss some slack but only for a while.



On the rest of your arguments the chain of command is important, even if you can't respect the person you still have to at least nominally respect their rank. I speak from experience on this.
Andi does respect the rank - she follows Bandana's orders, and she remembers Julio's (even when the rest of the crew seem not to).

Now lets be clear: Bandana is the captain - if she feels that Andi is a detriment to the team it is her role to remove her (and I imagine on the average flying pirate ship that might also mean removing her high above the ground with a weight attached to her). However calling Bandana 'Bandana' does not seem in any way disruptive to the team that we have seen - and Bandana has not enforced it consistently instead only doing it on her whim.


Elan has mending, which helped to fix the engines.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0952.html
Which was not the task they were sent up there to do.

[Faramir]

He had it specially made for that panel. :biggrin:

You win. :smallsmile:

[goodpeople25]

If Andi is pushed to the level of undermining Bandana like that than the blame falls on Bandana. She has a competent employee that follows her orders - and she is quibbling on a title.

And that reason is to keep everything running smoothly - pissing off members of the team goes against that aim.

Nothing against either.

He was not ordered to fix things - he was ordered to assess, so either he ignored that and started fixing, or when Andi showed up she got him to help with her fixing.

Andi was the one that was needed to fix it (or so say Bandana), as such Felix was either assisting her or he was undertaking other repairs on his own initiative.

According to Bandana he is "Frankly, it is a testament to his work ethic that he even had time to learn how to fly the ship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0988.html)".

To quote myself:

Bandana could have been assisting with ensuring that none of the Gnomes were up to no good.

Depending on the kind of operation that the Choatic Neutral Captain Julio Scoundrél ran this could be a highly different environment than Andi signed up for - a new boss (even if they are not new to the team) needs to learn how to manage the team and adapt to them, teams will often cut a new boss some slack but only for a while.

Andi does respect the rank - she follows Bandana's orders, and she remembers Julio's (even when the rest of the crew seem not to).

Now lets be clear: Bandana is the captain - if she feels that Andi is a detriment to the team it is her role to remove her (and I imagine on the average flying pirate ship that might also mean removing her high above the ground with a weight attached to her). However calling Bandana 'Bandana' does not seem in any way disruptive to the team that we have seen - and Bandana has not enforced it consistently instead only doing it on her whim.

Which was not the task they were sent up there to do.
That title is an important thing that helps the captain do her job.
On what felix was assigned to be doing you do not know what his expertise is besides sartorial advisor to Julio, (that fly the ship comment is just as likely if not more likely to apply to Julio as we have actually seen Julio fly the ship) he could easily know how the engines work or how other parts like the instrument panel works also as said part of a leaders job is delegating and trusting their crew to do their jobs it applies to felix as much as it applies to Andi. Also as you said every member that isnt Andi calls Captain Bandana Captain So if Andi doesn't and the Captain doesn't correct her that is saying to the rest of the crew that Andi is better and gets a different treatment than the rest of the crew, now why Captain Bandana hasn't disciplined her yet, she has given Andi warnings either she doesn't think the act requires a punishment, Andi is a needed member of the crew, or some other reason. But Andi can be disciplined or warned in whatever way (by ship rules of course) Her Captain decides, Andi still has to do her Job which includes following her Captains orders that don't violate (Captain)Julio's standing orders to help the order. Andi has been warned and if bandanas corrections have not been consistent the only time i remeber her not correcting her is when the other crew has not been in sight. Rank is more than a title and way beyond a "quibble", especially for a CO.

[Shining Wrath]

The arguments about Andi and Bandana seem to be missing a fundamental point, which is that we don't know what the rules and customs of the Mechane might be. Given that the long time captain was a Dashing Swordsman of the Chaotic Neutral variety, it is extremely likely that they don't resemble anything any of us are familiar with.

RL Example: my father was career navy, 20+ years. He had a terrible accident, fell down an elevator shaft on a carrier and fused some vertebrae in his back together along with breaking both legs. He was in the hospital for months.

When he got back and reported for duty, some lieutenant JG told Dad to swab the deck. Dad looked around for the nearest E-1 seaman and told him to swab the deck. The lieutenant interrupted and said "No, Chief, YOU swab the deck. You've been goldbricking in the infirmary for months, it's time you started doing some work". Dad stared at the guy for a moment, dropped the mop, and walked away. As context, Dad was the senior petty officer on a freakin' aircraft carrier, with dozens of people reporting to him.

And the stupid LJG pressed the issue and had Dad court-martialed. Technically he was correct; Dad had refused a lawful order from a superior officer. So they kicked Dad out of the Navy, but since every officer on the panel knew that the lieutenant had acted disgracefully, he got an honorable discharge.

Lieutenant JG never made it to full lieutenant. Treating underlings like that was, and is, a career limiting move.

I suspect that if the Mechane worked like the US Navy, Andi would be up on charges pretty soon. I also suspect the Mechane does not work like the US Navy to any significant degree.

It's possible that the real person to blame is not Andi, not Bandana, but Julio. He created a ship dominated by his own charismatic personality, and when that personality is removed, the thing can't work. Not with Bandana in charge, or Andi, or Felix, or random crewman to be named later. It may take some major changes to regain a functional chain of command, and in the meantime they are flying into danger.

[goodpeople25]

The arguments about Andi and Bandana seem to be missing a fundamental point, which is that we don't know what the rules and customs of the Mechane might be. Given that the long time captain was a Dashing Swordsman of the Chaotic Neutral variety, it is extremely likely that they don't resemble anything any of us are familiar with.

RL Example: my father was career navy, 20+ years. He had a terrible accident, fell down an elevator shaft on a carrier and fused some vertebrae in his back together along with breaking both legs. He was in the hospital for months.

When he got back and reported for duty, some lieutenant JG told Dad to swab the deck. Dad looked around for the nearest E-1 seaman and told him to swab the deck. The lieutenant interrupted and said "No, Chief, YOU swab the deck. You've been goldbricking in the infirmary for months, it's time you started doing some work". Dad stared at the guy for a moment, dropped the mop, and walked away. As context, Dad was the senior petty officer on a freakin' aircraft carrier, with dozens of people reporting to him.

And the stupid LJG pressed the issue and had Dad court-martialed. Technically he was correct; Dad had refused a lawful order from a superior officer. So they kicked Dad out of the Navy, but since every officer on the panel knew that the lieutenant had acted disgracefully, he got an honorable discharge.

Lieutenant JG never made it to full lieutenant. Treating underlings like that was, and is, a career limiting move.

I suspect that if the Mechane worked like the US Navy, Andi would be up on charges pretty soon. I also suspect the Mechane does not work like the US Navy to any significant degree.

It's possible that the real person to blame is not Andi, not Bandana, but Julio. He created a ship dominated by his own charismatic personality, and when that personality is removed, the thing can't work. Not with Bandana in charge, or Andi, or Felix, or random crewman to be named later. It may take some major changes to regain a functional chain of command, and in the meantime they are flying into danger.
But the majority of the crew seems to be fine with bandana being in charge Andi seems to me to be the only one with a problem, plus bandana seemed to be up their in command structure (or whatever the structure is anyway she seemed like she was the second in command anyway?) and the crew seemed to take delegated orders from her perfectly fine before Julio left, and she probably ran the operation of the ship before or maybe even most of the time considering Julio probably jumped out of the ship unexpectedly or went on short adventures before, never mind Julio probably never normally ran the ship's operations much anyway.

[dmaxno]

[...] Julio probably never normally ran the ship's operations much anyway.

Which goes to Shining Wrath's point. We don't know how the Mechane is run. My guess would be that Julio and Andi may have been on a first-name basis. Yes, that is a guess (back to SW's point).
What we know is that Andi does follow orders, but she is not happy about how those orders are being given. A crew appreciation day (or other recognition) is in order.

I find both Andi's and Bandana's actions fair. that they are at odds is not a problem. I guess the people who believe that a captain's order must be unquestionable else the ship wrecks is not more than an assumption or belief. I, for one, think that subordinates need the ability to do the right thing. I also think that a significant change in any organization will take some time until a new culture settles in.

Out of curiosity: Am I the only who thought that in #961 Andi may have referred to Elan as a 'kid', not Bandana?

[goodpeople25]

Which goes to Shining Wrath's point. We don't know how the Mechane is run. My guess would be that Julio and Andi may have been on a first-name basis. Yes, that is a guess (back to SW's point).
What we know is that Andi does follow orders, but she is not happy about how those orders are being given. A crew appreciation day (or other recognition) is in order.

I find both Andi's and Bandana's actions fair. that they are at odds is not a problem. I guess the people who believe that a captain's order must be unquestionable else the ship wrecks is not more than an assumption or belief. I, for one, think that subordinates need the ability to do the right thing. I also think that a significant change in any organization will take some time until a new culture settles in.

Out of curiosity: Am I the only who thought that in #961 Andi may have referred to Elan as a 'kid', not Bandana?
A crew appreciation day for one crew member in a middle of a mission is not advisable in my opinion, and it is not that Andi is at odds with bandana or dislikes her that is a problem to me but if every other crew member except Andi seems to call Bandana Captain, the captain needs to enforce it for Andi at least nominally or Bandana is showing special treatment to Andi. Notice the one time she doesn't is when the rest if the crew is not in sight. I don't mind if she is a slightly snarky or a gruff engineer type, but Bandana is perfectly justified in telling/ordering Andi to call her Captain.

[M84]

I think the biggest hurdle Bandana will need to overcome is that she's not Julio. The crew was Julio's crew first. Heck, SHE was Julio's crew first. Until everyone on board the Mechane, including herself, stops thinking of Bandana as a substitute for Julio, they are going to have issues.

[Windscion]

One issue I have: people are being angry at Andi for her snark about the gnomes. These were the same group of gnomes who, firstly, tried to charge FIVE TIMES the gold and time they actualy needed, and who, secondly, blamed Andi's repairs for part of the delay and expense. She has a legitimate greivance against these gnomes. And we don't know what they are like to work with. And they are doing major surgery on her baby. And she has likely got very little sleep. Given all this, I am pretty much neutral about Andi. I feel we don't know who she really is yet.

Bandana, we know more about. We can confidently say she prefers the life of an adventurer -- she really wanted to be in on the fight with Crystal Golem, for instance. And she wants her own ship -- she's not wedded to the Mechane. Andi may well see the Mechane as her world. So there's a big difference in values between the two as well. Friction here is not indicative of either one being all wrong.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Gosh, it's a good thing this is a webcomic rather than a TV series. Can you imagine how much it would've costed to get Julio's actor back? :smalltongue:

[kivzirrum]

Out of curiosity: Am I the only who thought that in #961 Andi may have referred to Elan as a 'kid', not Bandana?

While it's possible, I think context really made it seem like Andi was talking about Bandana.

[dmaxno]

A crew appreciation day for one crew member in a middle of a mission is not advisable in my opinion, and it is not that Andi is at odds with bandana or dislikes her that is a problem to me but if every other crew member except Andi seems to call Bandana Captain, the captain needs to enforce it for Andi at least nominally or Bandana is showing special treatment to Andi. Notice the one time she doesn't is when the rest if the crew is not in sight. I don't mind if she is a slightly snarky or a gruff engineer type, but Bandana is perfectly justified in telling/ordering Andi to call her Captain.
Yes, I agree that a crew appreciation day for one crew member would not be advisable (plus it would be unfair to the rest of the crew).
I also agree that Bandana is justified in expecting to be called captain.
Considering Bandana is someone who particularly likes the idea of giving orders, I think some adjustment time for the crew is normal. In my opinion Andi calls Bandana by name out of habit, not disrespect.

[Kantaki]

Gosh, it's a good thing this is a webcomic rather than a TV series. Can you imagine how much it would've costed to get Julio's actor back? :smalltongue:

Thats why you film all the scenes a actor has before sending them into the desert.:smallbiggrin:

[Clistenes]

The arguments about Andi and Bandana seem to be missing a fundamental point, which is that we don't know what the rules and customs of the Mechane might be. Given that the long time captain was a Dashing Swordsman of the Chaotic Neutral variety, it is extremely likely that they don't resemble anything any of us are familiar with.

RL Example: my father was career navy, 20+ years. He had a terrible accident, fell down an elevator shaft on a carrier and fused some vertebrae in his back together along with breaking both legs. He was in the hospital for months.

When he got back and reported for duty, some lieutenant JG told Dad to swab the deck. Dad looked around for the nearest E-1 seaman and told him to swab the deck. The lieutenant interrupted and said "No, Chief, YOU swab the deck. You've been goldbricking in the infirmary for months, it's time you started doing some work". Dad stared at the guy for a moment, dropped the mop, and walked away. As context, Dad was the senior petty officer on a freakin' aircraft carrier, with dozens of people reporting to him.

And the stupid LJG pressed the issue and had Dad court-martialed. Technically he was correct; Dad had refused a lawful order from a superior officer. So they kicked Dad out of the Navy, but since every officer on the panel knew that the lieutenant had acted disgracefully, he got an honorable discharge.

Lieutenant JG never made it to full lieutenant. Treating underlings like that was, and is, a career limiting move.

I suspect that if the Mechane worked like the US Navy, Andi would be up on charges pretty soon. I also suspect the Mechane does not work like the US Navy to any significant degree.

And when has Bandana done anyting remotely similar to that? All she has done is to tell Andi to call her "captain" which she is. I'm sure your dad never refused to show respect to superior officers.

[hagnat]

*Sigh*

The appeal of "Handy Andi" is lost on you, I take it?

There are no Handy Andy's in Brazil
and for some weird reason, i think i should be glad about that

And last time i have seen a home improvement TV show it featured a UK home designer that looked like Clash, some ~10 years ago
and i think i should be glad about that too

[Lord Torath]

Though was that casually racist comment really necessary, Andi? Sheesh, don't be mean to gnomes, that's a quick way to lose audience sympathy!!Well, to be honest, the gnomes she's working with probably are pretty grubby just now. As anyone who's ever worked on an engine all day (or even just all morning) would know.

[littlebum2002]

Well, to be honest, the gnomes she's working with probably are pretty grubby just now. As anyone who's ever worked on an engine all day (or even just all morning) would know.

And they're little, too. If she had said she was working with "big, clean gnomes" she'd be lying, wouldn't she?

[The Troubadour]

Still, beyond fleshing out personalities, I'm interested to see where this goes. If it goes anywhere.

Is it possible Andi is Bandana's ex?

[littlebum2002]

Is it possible Andi is Bandana's ex?

Bandana said her ex "left behind" her old armor. Why would she leave it behind when she lives on the same ship?

[Rakoa]

Bandana said her ex "left behind" her old armor. Why would she leave it behind when she lives on the same ship?

Hey, someone can have more than one ex!

[Takver]

Is it possible Andi is Bandana's ex?

Possible, yeah, but nothing so far implies it. If anything, I would think that if Bandana's ex was still on the ship, Bandana would not have any of her ex's clothes to give away to Haley.

I think we're going to see that the tension between Andi and Bandana will eventually result in something materially going wrong on the ship, at a dramatically appropriate moment. Example: During a dangerous scene (e.g., the High Priest of Hel revealing himself and attacking the clerics), Bandana gives Andi an urgent order without explaining it to Andi's satisfaction. Andi disobeys the order (either openly or in secret). If the order had been followed, it would have gotten an Order member (or maybe a Good cleric) out of trouble. Because Andi disobeyed, something bad happens to an Order member.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, though I think the Andi/Bandana thing might spell trouble, it's also worth remembering this anecdote from George S. Patton: :smallbiggrin:


One of the bravest men I saw in the African campaign was on a telegraph pole in the midst of furious fire while we were moving toward Tunis. I stopped and asked him what the hell he was doing up there. He answered, 'Fixing the wire, sir.' 'Isn't it a little unhealthy up there right now?' I asked. 'Yes sir, but this goddamn wire has got to be fixed.' I asked, 'Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?' And he answered, 'No sir, but you sure as hell do.' Now, there was a real soldier. A real man.

[gia]

That title is an important thing that helps the captain do her job.
On what felix was assigned to be doing you do not know what his expertise is besides sartorial advisor to Julio, (that fly the ship comment is just as likely if not more likely to apply to Julio as we have actually seen Julio fly the ship) he could easily know how the engines work or how other parts like the instrument panel works also as said part of a leaders job is delegating and trusting their crew to do their jobs it applies to felix as much as it applies to Andi. Also as you said every member that isnt Andi calls Captain Bandana Captain So if Andi doesn't and the Captain doesn't correct her that is saying to the rest of the crew that Andi is better and gets a different treatment than the rest of the crew, now why Captain Bandana hasn't disciplined her yet, she has given Andi warnings either she doesn't think the act requires a punishment, Andi is a needed member of the crew, or some other reason. But Andi can be disciplined or warned in whatever way (by ship rules of course) Her Captain decides, Andi still has to do her Job which includes following her Captains orders that don't violate (Captain)Julio's standing orders to help the order. Andi has been warned and if bandanas corrections have not been consistent the only time i remeber her not correcting her is when the other crew has not been in sight. Rank is more than a title and way beyond a "quibble", especially for a CO.
the comment about Felix is meant to imply Julio was a wardrobe mess, and its impressive Felix had the time to learn to fly the ship while under the burden of his duties, at least that's how I read it.

Also it's a pirate ship, she has to enforce her alpha-ness there or she's facing mutiny in the future, so Andi can't be in the right, and Bandana seems to be rather lenient actually

[Benthesquid]

Worth noting- this is a pirate ship. It's not as if Andi swore to uphold the rules and regulations of the Scoundrel Navy. She may have signed some equivalent of one of the many Pirate Codes that have floated around IRL. Just as possible, as they don't seem an overly lawful sort, she may have only been there as one of a band of companions, owing a certain amount of personal loyalty to the crew's leader. Kind of like the Order, post Roy tearing up their contracts, but on a boat. Without knowing a little more about how the crew is organized, I don't think we can declare that she particularly owes obedience, much less deference to Bandanna.

[goodpeople25]

the comment about Felix is meant to imply Julio was a wardrobe mess, and its impressive Felix had the time to learn to fly the ship while under the burden of his duties, at least that's how I read it.

Also it's a pirate ship, she has to enforce her alpha-ness there or she's facing mutiny in the future, so Andi can't be in the right, and Bandana seems to be rather lenient actually
Yeah i agree bandana is leintent but the joke could mean felix but it could just as easily be about Julio, but to me it is more in Julio's favour as felix is never seen flying the ship, but Julio has. They both use swords though.

Worth noting- this is a pirate ship. It's not as if Andi swore to uphold the rules and regulations of the Scoundrel Navy. She may have signed some equivalent of one of the many Pirate Codes that have floated around IRL. Just as possible, as they don't seem an overly lawful sort, she may have only been there as one of a band of companions, owing a certain amount of personal loyalty to the crew's leader. Kind of like the Order, post Roy tearing up their contracts, but on a boat. Without knowing a little more about how the crew is organized, I don't think we can declare that she particularly owes obedience, much less deference to Bandanna.
Every member of the crew sans Andi calls bandana Captain and follows her orders pretty readily so they seem to at least give her at least basic respect and loyalty except for Andi, and if bandana is captain she should be called captain at least in front of the crew.

[Benthesquid]

Every member of the crew sans Andi calls bandana Captain and follows her orders pretty readily so they seem to at least give her at least basic respect and loyalty except for Andi, and if bandana is captain she should be called captain at least in front of the crew.

Right- they call her captain, which, as free spirited piratical individuals, is their prerogative.

[IamWeasel]

Is the Mechane a pirate ship? I question that it is because they docked ship at a goodly aligned people's port in Tinkertown. They are actively helping a (mostly) goodly aligned adventuring party. Perhaps they are pirate chasers, like Deudermont and the Sea Sprite in the Drizz't books.

[ti'esar]

Julio Scoundrél is a self-described sky pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) who is a wanted criminal in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) and probably in other places. So yes, they may be more "lovable rogue" pirates than "make 'em walk the plank" pirates, but they are pirates.

[Benthesquid]

Is the Mechane a pirate ship? I question that it is because they docked ship at a goodly aligned people's port in Tinkertown. They are actively helping a (mostly) goodly aligned adventuring party. Perhaps they are pirate chasers, like Deudermont and the Sea Sprite in the Drizz't books.

Well... we haven't seen them committing any acts of piracy per se... but Scoundrel is a wanted criminal in Azure City, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) and his crew shows no reservations about opening fire on Azure City's defenses. And here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) we see them flying what looks an awful lot like a Jolly Roger.

Also, Julio describes himself as a Sky Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html). Probably should have opened with that.

[goodpeople25]

Well... we haven't seen them committing any acts of piracy per se... but Scoundrel is a wanted criminal in Azure City, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) and his crew shows no reservations about opening fire on Azure City's defenses. And here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) we see them flying what looks an awful lot like a Jolly Roger.

Also, Julio describes himself as a Sky Pirate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html). Probably should have opened with that.
I agree of course that they are (at least nominally )pirates, but the crime for why they are not allowed in azure city is hardly a pirate crew crime more of a dashing sexy rouge crime, well at least that is how Julio said it. And the firing on azure city was more of a defence maneuver well that and a bit of revenge for being fired apon.
Yeah you probably should have opened with that last one :smallwink:

[dancrilis]

as felix is never seen flying the ship

At this time I could not be bothered to do a full archive review (maybe tomorrow) - but 956 clearly had Felix be the one that gets them back on course (despite someone else being told to level the ship 5 strips earlier). Perhaps you feel that this is him being asked to stand beside the driver and offer directions.

As for pirates - Andi clearly thinks they were involved in heroic piracy stuff prior to this - (please tell don't ask me to provide a link, I can but it is late and I am tired).

[goodpeople25]

At this time I could not be bothered to do a full archive review (maybe tomorrow) - but 956 clearly had Felix be the one that gets them back on course (despite someone else being told to level the ship 5 strips earlier). Perhaps you feel that this is him being asked to stand beside the driver and offer directions.

As for pirates - Andi clearly thinks they were involved in heroic piracy stuff prior to this - (please tell don't ask me to provide a link, I can but it is late and I am tired).
Okay sorry i only looked at images not text. But i wonder why you need to add sarcasm to the concept of a navigator. But still that is a good point i missed thank you, but still not confirmed he is the pilot or the point of the joke. It is likely but not confirmed

[Emperordaniel]

I agree of course that they are (at least nominally )pirates, but the crime for why they are not allowed in azure city is hardly a pirate crew crime more of a dashing sexy rouge crime, well at least that is how Julio said it. And the firing on azure city was more of a defence maneuver well that and a bit of revenge for being fired apon.
Yeah you probably should have opened with that last one :smallwink:

Julio is also Chaotic Neutral - he's not a Good guy, though he may count as a "good guy". :smalltongue:

[Shining Wrath]

And when has Bandana done anyting remotely similar to that? All she has done is to tell Andi to call her "captain" which she is. I'm sure your dad never refused to show respect to superior officers.

Disobeying a direct order is the ULTIMATE disrespect. It's why he was court martialed.

[davidbofinger]

Obviously Julio would never wear something that hideous without a good reason. He must have been using it for something and forgotten he was still wearing it. The question is what.

My best guess, just based on what the vest looks like, is that Julio fought a clown duel. If he fights pun duels occasionally then it's not surprising he occasionally clown duels as well. After the duel he took off the comic red nose and floppy feet but he forgot about the vest until he was reminded.

Any other possibilities?

[rewinn]

Obviously Julio would never wear something that hideous without a good reason. He must have been using it for something and forgotten he was still wearing it. The question is what.

My best guess, just based on what the vest looks like, is that Julio fought a clown duel. If he fights pun duels occasionally then it's not surprising he occasionally clown duels as well. After the duel he took off the comic red nose and floppy feet but he forgot about the vest until he was reminded.

Any other possibilities?

Well, he *does* have to give his fashion consultant something to do. "I cannot in good conscience allow this" is Felix's big line in The Adventure of the Ogre-Witch of Rupture Ravine (back issues available at your local comicbook store).

[Shadowscale]

Does anyone know what the strip said before it was changed?

[dancrilis]

Does anyone know what the strip said before it was changed?
Paraphrased:
5th panel Haley: Dammit a costume change already - I just had one.
5th panel Elan: (I can't remember - but it was a minor throw away comment or else he might not have had any lines).
6th panel Felix: (effectively unchanged other then the offer to take the clothes back).
6th panel Haley: "Huh Durkon has been casting Endure elements on us since the desert, I figured we would just keep doing that".
All other bits effectively unchanged (possible completely unchanged).

[Phexar]

Again, Bandana is showing a lack of empathy here herself. Andi has been working nonstop all day until nightfall and also supervising an excitable gaggle of staff likely with cultural gaps. Knowing stereotypical gnome engineers, they were probably criticizing Andi's work all day long too. A good leader would expect there to be some raw nerves on their star player, especially when pretty much everyone else got to have shore leave and she didn't. Bringing her back a souvenir or even some dinner would have been a nice gesture and show Bandana's appreciation. I can't blame Andi for being a little prickly right now. And all that is on top of, and reinforcing, the "you're not my REAL Mom Captain" no-confidence issue that already appears to exist between them.

One issue I have: people are being angry at Andi for her snark about the gnomes. These were the same group of gnomes who, firstly, tried to charge FIVE TIMES the gold and time they actualy needed, and who, secondly, blamed Andi's repairs for part of the delay and expense. She has a legitimate greivance against these gnomes. And we don't know what they are like to work with. And they are doing major surgery on her baby. And she has likely got very little sleep. Given all this, I am pretty much neutral about Andi. I feel we don't know who she really is yet.

Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing. Regardless of how things are between her and Bandana normally, she'd be undoubtedly grouchy after hours of dealing with the same gnome mechanics who criticised her work and probably reminded her about how "we have to fix this thing carefully that you screwed up or the ship will explode" a whole bunch (and the work is far from finished too, so she gets to look forward to more of it). And then Bandana waltzes in saying about how she had an awesome day and blows her off with 'Ah, don't get your knickers in a twist' when she vented about it, which would have made Andi even crankier. I'm thinking things will get worse between the two of them before they get better, until Bandana learns how to build more rapport and confidence with Andi.


Does anyone know what the strip said before it was changed?

I had the old strip open in a separate tab when I saw the post about the change, so I wrote it all down while I had it up. :smallsmile:


(Panel 5, Haley looks annoyed and is gesturing forward with her hands, Elan has a neutral expression with his hands by his sides, with no lines)
Felix: Hey everybody! Look, I got us all winter gear! :smallsmile:
Haley: Are you kidding me? Another darn costume change already?!? I'm barely used to this one yet! :smallannoyed:

(Panel 6, everything is zoomed in a bit more since there's less text)
Felix: But...but we're going to the North Pole. It's cold up there. :smallfrown:
Haley: Oh, uh, sorry, but Durkon has been casting Endure Elements on us since the desert. I just thought we'd keep doing that every day.

[Xihirli]

Thank you for jotting that one down. 'Tis a service upon us all.

[kivzirrum]

Hmm, having read that, I am struck by how I don't prefer one or the other. It all managed to communicate the same basic things, except Haley's position is now consistent with earlier.

I expected one or the other version to flow or work better. Well done, Giant! It all seems quite natural.

[Geodude6]

Well to be fair, Haley DID say that over 5 months ago :P

Plus Crystal punched her in the head a lot.

[sengmeng]

Has anyone posited that Haley may be acting as an author mouthpiece when she expressed dismay over the costume change? I'm sure everyone getting a wardrobe update at once is a lot of work for the Giant.

[Amphiox]

One issue I have: people are being angry at Andi for her snark about the gnomes. These were the same group of gnomes who, firstly, tried to charge FIVE TIMES the gold and time they actualy needed, and who, secondly, blamed Andi's repairs for part of the delay and expense. She has a legitimate greivance against these gnomes. And we don't know what they are like to work with. And they are doing major surgery on her baby. And she has likely got very little sleep. Given all this, I am pretty much neutral about Andi. I feel we don't know who she really is yet..

You know, we only have Andi's word about the gnomes and their negotiating. It was Andi who first negotiated with the gnomes, and it was she who reported their demands to the others. What if Andi deliberately negotiated "poorly", or deliberately made repairs that she knew other mechanics would find cause to want to charge extra and delay for, because doing so would have meant the end of Bandana's tenure as acting captain, because the ship would be in dock for repairs until Julio got back? And she is deliberately snarking about the gnomes to give herself plausible deniability should this ever become suspected?

Her behavior certainly gives her motive for doing something like this, and it would also explain how easily and quickly Haley was able to negotiate those things down.

[ti'esar]

I'm not sure I'd agree that Andi's behavior so far suggests that she'd outright, consciously sabotage Bandana's command.

Can't people just be sort of hostile to each other without it being a Big Deal?

[martianmister]

I had the old strip open in a separate tab when I saw the post about the change, so I wrote it all down while I had it up. :smallsmile:

There must be a way to preserve this!

[Xihirli]

You know, we only have Andi's word about the gnomes and their negotiating. It was Andi who first negotiated with the gnomes, and it was she who reported their demands to the others. What if Andi deliberately negotiated "poorly", or deliberately made repairs that she knew other mechanics would find cause to want to charge extra and delay for, because doing so would have meant the end of Bandana's tenure as acting captain, because the ship would be in dock for repairs until Julio got back? And she is deliberately snarking about the gnomes to give herself plausible deniability should this ever become suspected?

Her behavior certainly gives her motive for doing something like this, and it would also explain how easily and quickly Haley was able to negotiate those things down.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html

Bandana reported to the group about the repair cost and negotiated with the gnomes. And we don't know when Julio will come back, probably not within a week. And in that amount of time, she has to sweat working with a grimy engine for a week on end (until Haley negotiated it down). That makes no sense no matter what angle you look at it from.

[dancrilis]

That makes no sense no matter what angle you look at it from.

It makes sense from one perspective (given that Bandana would have been the one orchestrating it).

Bandana is a temporary pirate captain now and she wants it to be permanent, and so might be thinking to screw over the order so her personal enrichment so she can purchase her own ship (renegotiate with the Gnome after she leaves with a hopefully healthy gift from her 'friend' Haley).

This could also be the source of the conflict between Andi and Bandana - if Bandana is one of those bosses that is nice and pleasant to clients (and people) while trying to screw them over it could grate on Andi's professional and honest manner of dealing with people after a while.

Yea I doubt this is it as well.

[Gift Jeraff]

I had the old strip open in a separate tab when I saw the post about the change, so I wrote it all down while I had it up. :smallsmile:

I hope you saved the image. That will be worth thousands in several years.

[Grey Watcher]

I hope you saved the image. That will be worth thousands in several years.

Unless Rich includes the original version as a bonus in Book 6.

[Snails]

Obviously Julio would never wear something that hideous without a good reason. He must have been using it for something and forgotten he was still wearing it. The question is what.

My best guess, just based on what the vest looks like, is that Julio fought a clown duel. If he fights pun duels occasionally then it's not surprising he occasionally clown duels as well. After the duel he took off the comic red nose and floppy feet but he forgot about the vest until he was reminded.

Any other possibilities?

It is Felix's shirt, obviously -- he has the skin tone to easily pull it off so it must be his. Julio threw it on in the morning, in an urgent hurry to do a dashing deed, after a long wild evening with Felix. Hubab hubba.

Some people might think I am making a ridiculous bit of speculation based on very thin evidence. I am expecting all the people who were speculating about Laurin's possible past or future sexscapades with Tarquin to come rushing to my defense.

[Ornithologist]

Unless Rich includes the original version as a bonus in Book 6.

I'm pretty sure he just updated the original file, and recreated it. That way the right one goes into the right spot in the book.

I'm under the assumption that the original version is gone for ever, unless maybe google cache?

google has nothing!

[jere7my]

I'm pretty sure he just updated the original file, and recreated it. That way the right one goes into the right spot in the book.

I'm under the assumption that the original version is gone for ever, unless maybe google cache?

google has nothing!

I don't see any reason he wouldn't keep the original in a folder on his hard drive, unless he uses a versioning system (which would make it even easier to get to the old version).

[Carl]

Can somone explain why everyone, (in and out comic), is going nuts with Julio's attire? i honestly don't see the problem. I mean it's not my style, but i don;t see anything intrinsically wrong.

[Ariko]

Uhm..was I the only one who thought Bandanna's comment about food and guilt was simply that she ate a huge plate of waffles but didn't feel guilty about the calories due to getting a good workout in advance from the fight? So many posts resting on the assumption that it was about monastic asceticism.:smallconfused:

[Ron Miel]

Can somone explain why everyone, (in and out comic), is going nuts with Julio's attire? i honestly don't see the problem. I mean it's not my style, but i don;t see anything intrinsically wrong.

- open neck shirt (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1DjqELlIvg)

- polka dots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polka_dot)

- clashing colours (http://desktoppub.about.com/od/glossary/g/clashingcolors.htm). Light blue is opposite on the colour wheel to red/orange.

[pendell]

Very cool strip!


Just a quick note for readers: I know no one would ever, ever take their real-life cues from a fantasy strip, but, as a matter of note, real-life animals do not work that way. Staring an animal in the eye works with some animals but not with others. For example, With cougars (http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/Assets/ClientPages/zz_CougarEncounter.aspx), staring will work because a cougar is an ambush predator and won't spring on someone who's obviously spotted it. Same with lions (http://www.wikihow.com/Survive-a-Lion-Attack). By contrast, staring at a dominant dog or wolf is a challenge (http://wolfcenter.org/site/wolf-behavior/eye-position.html), and they'll spring at you.

So there's no one size fits all strategy that works for dominating and taming large, dangerous animals. It works for Belkar, because A) he's just awesome and B) D&D abstracts animal handling into a universal skill check. Just don't try it with the animals us commoners are typically likely to meet in cities. On the most common animal, the dog, it is counterproductive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ron Miel]

Wrong thread, Pendell. That should be in #989.

[pendell]

Wrong thread, Pendell. That should be in #989.

Well, fudge. serves me right for assuming the thread at the top is the thread for the comic currently under discussion!

:smallredface:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Reddish Mage]

Very cool strip!


Just a quick note for readers: I know no one would ever, ever take their real-life cues from a fantasy strip, but, as a matter of note, real-life animals do not work that way. Staring an animal in the eye works with some animals but not with others. For example, With cougars (http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/Assets/ClientPages/zz_CougarEncounter.aspx), staring will work because a cougar is an ambush predator and won't spring on someone who's obviously spotted it. Same with lions (http://www.wikihow.com/Survive-a-Lion-Attack). By contrast, staring at a dominant dog or wolf is a challenge (http://wolfcenter.org/site/wolf-behavior/eye-position.html), and they'll spring at you.

So there's no one size fits all strategy that works for dominating and taming large, dangerous animals. It works for Belkar, because A) he's just awesome and B) D&D abstracts animal handling into a universal skill check. Just don't try it with the animals us commoners are typically likely to meet in cities. On the most common animal, the dog, it is counterproductive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I would think that challenging a dog, if your intimidating enough, will provoke similar behavior but hey, I'm not dog whisptarer