[3.5] Build CHallenge: Dracotaur Human

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Just an off-the-wall question: is there any way to get the Human subtype on a Dracotaur (MM3 p.42), particularly without losing it's Dragon type?

Primarily, this would be to qualify for the Able Learner feat, and possibly levels of Human Paragon.

I'm stumped of any way to think of doing it - any ideas?

If it helps, it's for an NPC, so LA etc. doesn't matter.

Cheers - T

[Venger]

Hey all,

Just an off-the-wall question: is there any way to get the Human subtype on a Dracotaur (MM3 p.42), particularly without losing it's Dragon type?

Primarily, this would be to qualify for the Able Learner feat, and possibly levels of Human Paragon.

I'm stumped of any way to think of doing it - any ideas?

If it helps, it's for an NPC, so LA etc. doesn't matter.

Cheers - T

unfortunately, not by the rules as they stand.

since it's for an NPC, you could always say that he took 3 levels in a stoneblessed-like class that allowed him to be treated as though he were human for the purposes of prcs, allowing him into human paragon

[Extra Anchovies]

There is no way for this to work short of DM fiat. Dragon (Human) isn't a valid type/subtype combination. Anything that would get you the (Human) subtype (e.g. Human Heritage) will also give you the Humanoid type.

So it's not possible with a Dracotaur. It's also probably not possible to go from Humanoid (Human) to Dragon (Augmented Humanoid (Human)); evidence for this is the example half-dragon in MM1 (a human fighter) is a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid) but doesn't have the human subtype.

If you just want them to be sorta dragony, consider a Tauric Human//[Something Else] with the Draconic template. Tauric Human could count as half-human or human-descended, so they qualify for Human Heritage (giving you a Large humanoid, which is rather nice), and the Draconic template doesn't change creature type.

[Venger]

There is no way for this to work short of DM fiat. Dragon (Human) isn't a valid type/subtype combination. Anything that would get you the (Human) subtype (e.g. Human Heritage) will also give you the Humanoid type.

So it's not possible with a Dracotaur. It's also probably not possible to go from Humanoid (Human) to Dragon (Augmented Humanoid (Human)); evidence for this is the example half-dragon in MM1 (a human fighter) is a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid) but doesn't have the human subtype.

If you just want them to be sorta dragony, consider a Tauric Human//[Something Else] with the Draconic template. Tauric Human could count as half-human or human-descended, so they qualify for Human Heritage (giving you a Large humanoid, which is rather nice), and the Draconic template doesn't change creature type.

your points are all correct, but never use sample characters as reference, every single one is built hideously wrong with lots of basic mistakes, it'll really mix you up.

dragonborn loses you your type, so that won't get you what you want.

human heritage, even if you found a way to qualify, explicitly changes your type to humanoid if you were something else, so you can't be dragon (human)

the general rule is if something is transformational, it's gonna change your type.

the only exception that springs to mind is renegade mastermaker, which gives you the living construct subtype, allowing you to retain your original type, letting you avoid gaining the augmented subtype (though this is obviously an oversight, since it's erroneously referred to as a type)

[Mr Adventurer]

May I ask why? :)

Maybe he was a human that got reincarnated?

[Uncle Pine]

It's also probably not possible to go from Humanoid (Human) to Dragon (Augmented Humanoid (Human)); evidence for this is the example half-dragon in MM1 (a human fighter) is a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid) but doesn't have the human subtype.

Note that the (Human) subtype didn't exist when MM1 was printed and that the half-dragon template doesn't change your subtypes. Thus, a half-dragon human is a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid, Human).

About Dracotaurs, I don't think there's a way for them to take Human Heritage (which would let them keep their dragon traits, by the way), unless you rule them as a "human-descended race" because human + horse = centaur and centaur + dragon = dracotaur. Mind that no fluff was given about Dracotaurs' origins, so this is totally homebrew.

[Venger]

Note that the (Human) subtype didn't exist when MM1 was printed and that the half-dragon template doesn't change your subtypes. Thus, a half-dragon human is a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid, Human).

About Dracotaurs, I don't think there's a way for them to take Human Heritage (which would let them keep their dragon traits, by the way), unless you rule them as a "human-descended race" because human + horse = centaur and centaur + dragon = dracotaur. Mind that no fluff was given about Dracotaurs' origins, so this is totally homebrew.

as mentioned, if a nonhumanoid takes humanoid heritage, their type changes to humanoid, so this won't produce the results thurbane wants. so even if he ruled dracotaurs were human-descended, it wouldn't work.

[Extra Anchovies]

Note that the (Human) subtype didn't exist when MM1 was printed and that the half-dragon template doesn't change your subtypes. Thus, a half-dragon human is a Dragon (Augmented Humanoid, Human).

Hm. So if we can get a centaur-like Humanoid through purely inherited templates, the human dracotaur works. Human Heritage is a no go since you'd select it after applying Half-Dragon, wiping the Dragon type.

Also, nitpick: the (Human) subtype does exist prior to MM1; PHB p. 47 has it in the list of ranger favored enemies. Not sure if that affects anything.

[torrasque666]

dragonborn loses you your type, so that won't get you what you want.
I.... what? No! The Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar explicitly calls out you keeping your type and subtypes.

[Red Fel]

I.... what? No! The Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar explicitly calls out you keeping your type and subtypes.

This is an ongoing dispute. Sidebar says you keep type and subtype, text says you become Humanoid. Trust me, you won't resolve it in this thread when it's been debated in so many others.

[ShurikVch]

Tauric Creature of Human and Dragon; then Half-Dragon Savage progression?

[Venger]

Tauric Creature of Human and Dragon; then Half-Dragon Savage progression?

nope. tauric creatures are monstrous humanoids. he'd gain the dragon type, but wouldn't retain his human sybtype

[ShurikVch]

nope. tauric creatures are monstrous humanoids. he'd gain the dragon type, but wouldn't retain his human sybtypeQuote, please

[Extra Anchovies]

Maybe Tauric Human/Dragon who takes Human Heritage and then enters the Half-Dragon Savage Progression?


Quote, please

Um... the Tauric template description in MM2? It's on page 216. "A tauric creature's type changes to monstrous humanoid."

[ShurikVch]

Maybe Tauric Human/Dragon who takes Human Heritage and then enters the Half-Dragon Savage Progression?Second it! :smallbiggrin:

Um... the Tauric template description in MM2? It's on page 216. "A tauric creature's type changes to monstrous humanoid.""Type", not "subtype"

[Rubik]

About Dracotaurs, I don't think there's a way for them to take Human Heritage (which would let them keep their dragon traits, by the way), unless you rule them as a "human-descended race" because human + horse = centaur and centaur + dragon = dracotaur. Mind that no fluff was given about Dracotaurs' origins, so this is totally homebrew.Actually, it's perfectly reasonable for just about any race to be descended from humans, since apparently humans can procreate with practically anything. Just say, "My great great great great grandfather was a human. He had this weird thing with my other great great great great grandfather. I think a wizard was involved. He was my other other great great great great grandfather. ...Look, just don't ask, okay?"

How about someone who uses Metamorphosis, followed by Fusion with someone with the dragon type, who then dismisses Metamorphosis (thereby gaining both the Humanoid (Human) and Dragon types/subtypes) and then manifesting Astral Seed and offing himself? Just use whichever type is more convenient at any point.

How about a half-kobold with Dragonwrought? I believe half-kobolds are considered both human and kobold, and Dragonwrought would give you both subtypes, as well as the Dragon type. Combine with Reserves of Strength and Alter Self into a dracotaur, and voila.

[Thurbane]

OK, time to tackle this another way: a Dracotaur gets UMD as a racial skill for it's RHD. Is there any way to keep this is a racial skill (or otherwise get ranks for a 1:1 ratio) other than the Apprentice (spellcaster) feat (assume this feat is off the table)?

i.e. I want this character to be able to keep pumping up UMD without having it from class levels, and not paying 2 skill points for each rank...

[Extra Anchovies]

OK, time to tackle this another way: a Dracotaur gets UMD as a racial skill for it's RHD. Is there any way to keep this is a racial skill (or otherwise get ranks for a 1:1 ratio) other than the Apprentice (spellcaster) feat (assume this feat is off the table)?

i.e. I want this character to be able to keep pumping up UMD without having it from class levels, and not paying 2 skill points for each rank...

Ask your DM if Skill Knowledge is allowed. It's less powerful in standard gameplay than it is in the "maximum ranks, limited choices" variant system, so most sensible DMs would allow it.

ETA: Right, you're the DM. Allow the Skill Knowledge feat.

[Uncle Pine]

OK, time to tackle this another way: a Dracotaur gets UMD as a racial skill for it's RHD. Is there any way to keep this is a racial skill (or otherwise get ranks for a 1:1 ratio) other than the Apprentice (spellcaster) feat (assume this feat is off the table)?

i.e. I want this character to be able to keep pumping up UMD without having it from class levels, and not paying 2 skill points for each rank...

What DC are you aiming for? There may be better ways to pump UMD other than treating it as a class skill, like Item Familiar.

[Rubik]

Unless you need UMD as a prereq, how about Shape Soulmeld (Mage Spectacles), along with a few feats that grant essentia?

[ShurikVch]

OK, time to tackle this another way: a Dracotaur gets UMD as a racial skill for it's RHD. Is there any way to keep this is a racial skill (or otherwise get ranks for a 1:1 ratio) other than the Apprentice (spellcaster) feat (assume this feat is off the table)?

i.e. I want this character to be able to keep pumping up UMD without having it from class levels, and not paying 2 skill points for each rank...Chose one of:
1) Dip in Human Paragon, select UMD for Adaptive Learning
2) Cosmopolitan regional feat (FRCS variant) can make one cross-class skill count as class skill, and +2 to checks with it
3) Flexible Mind [Anarchic] feat (Dragon #326) any two trained skills are count as class skills, and +1 to checks with them

[Forrestfire]

Taking illithid heritage will make you a member of a human-descended race, at which point you can take human heritage. Requires flaws to pull off, though, and you lose the dragon type.

[Uncle Pine]

Taking illithid heritage will make you a member of a human-descended race, at which point you can take human heritage. Requires flaws to pull off, though, and you lose the dragon type.

Wow. This makes not only reasonable, but RAW for any character with 2 1st level feats to spare to be a member of a human-descended race. I like it. And then when you're higher level and you don't need Human Heritage anymore because you already took the skill ranks you needed you Chaos Shuffle all the stuff. :smallamused:

[Story]

I'd say it's a little shaky by RAW. Illithid Heritage doesn't actually change your race or anything, so if you could qualify with it, you should be able to qualify without it as well. The trick is entirely reliant on fluff.

[Uncle Pine]

I'd say it's a little shaky by RAW. Illithid Heritage doesn't actually change your race or anything, so if you could qualify with it, you should be able to qualify without it as well. The trick is entirely reliant on fluff.

I like it because without the feat any DM would be justified to say that your <insert weird character> cannot qualify for Human Heritage because <insert your race> don't breed that way in his setting, while taking Illithid Heritage automatically qualifies you because mind flayers are (well, were) humans, so he can only refuse your character through rule 0.

Unless he realizes that mind flayers aren't the only illithids in the multiverse.

Which brings us back to square zero fluff.

Well, it was funny while it lasted.

[torrasque666]

Honestly, Human Heritage was probably only intended for the various Half-X races and other races that mention in their description as being human descended, like tieflings and other planetouched. But, since GitP is the cheese factory....

[Brookshw]

Honestly, Human Heritage was probably only intended for the various Half-X races and other races that mention in their description as being human descended, like tieflings and other planetouched. But, since GitP is the cheese factory....

Heh, brain tadpoles seem like a funky reproductive method to give a half anything. Illithids might make more sense as a template if they were going to be mix n' match heritage.

[Thurbane]

Looking into Human Heritage, I definitely want to use it to create funky NPCs.

I'm thinking something like 1/2 Dragon 1/2 Ogre who uses Human Heritage to pick up Lycanthropy (Were-Deinonychus )...large 1/2 dragon who turns into a dinosaur. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Looking into Human Heritage, I definitely want to use it to create funky NPCs.

I'm thinking something like 1/2 Dragon 1/2 Ogre who uses Human Heritage to pick up Lycanthropy (Were-Deinonychus )...large 1/2 dragon who turns into a winged dinosaur. :smalltongue:

Fixed that for you :tongue: