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Ivius
2007-04-22, 01:22 PM
What is everyone's opinion on psionics? Is it balanced? Is there as much potential for cheese as magic? Would you rather play a Wizard or Psion? Et cetera.

NEO|Phyte
2007-04-22, 01:25 PM
I'm no expert on game balance, but I've heard it said that 3.5 psionics are better balanced than 3.5 magic.

Personally, I prefer Psions, less bookkeeping.

Tellah
2007-04-22, 01:26 PM
It's better balanced than arcane magic, in my opinion, because there are fewer truly abusable powers. I frequently use it to stat up NPCs that I intend as "one trick ponies," since they can just manifest one power over and over at maximum augmentation. If you allow it in your game, be sure that your players realize they can only spend as many power points as they have manifester levers on any single power manifestation--this is the source of much "ZOMG BORKENZED PSYONS!!!1!"

ghost_warlock
2007-04-22, 01:39 PM
Another balancing factor with psionics is that there isn't as many PrCs based on psionics; especially ones meant for the psion (i.e., the psionic version of the wizard). Fewer PrCs mean that you have fewer opportunities to exploit a cheesy PrC (e.g., no Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or other PrCs that give full-casting progression with few to no sacrifices).

Third party books notwithstanding, of course. Still, even including 3rd party books, there is a lot less psionic cheese out there to exploit than there is for arcane/divine magic.

BTW - many will argue, given the default rules in the EPH, that psionics ARE magic. The option to make them different in a significant way from arcane/divine is an optional rule. This is significant because it means that the same things that nerf spellcasting (e.g, antimagic zones & spell resistance), also nerf psionics.

I think that one of the reasons why psionic gets such a bad rap is that, for some reason, players likely to abuse the rules gravitate toward psionic characters. Especially when the know the rules better than the DM. Most of the times I've heard a DM complaining about a "broken" psion, they eventually admitted that they didn't know the psionic rules and the player abusing psionics had a long history of being a jerk at the gaming table even before they played a psionic character.

bosssmiley
2007-04-22, 02:18 PM
I'll really stick my neck out here and assert that XPH Psionics is what 3.5 arcane magic should have been all along: very flexible, internally consistent and fully scalar.

The mechanics of psionics are (with a few shameful exceptions) transparent and clearly spelled out, and thus less prone to rabid abuse than the sprawling, rarely pruned *mess* of arcane spells which have been inherited from 3 previous editions of D&D.

Also, pseudo-Vancian ('fire and forget') casting is teh hard fail!!1eleven!! Name me one non-D&D game fiction story where the master of arcane magic ever has to say "Sorry, only mem-ed one of those this morning."

That said, I'd still rather play a wizard than a psion; purely on account of the immortally bad line: "...these pale against the psion's focused stare." :smallamused:

Ivius
2007-04-22, 02:57 PM
I also believe that Psionics make Melee-ers more viable. I''d take Psionic warrior or Soulknife over Fighter any day.

Tellah
2007-04-22, 03:23 PM
I'll come along with you on Psychic Warrior, but I have yet to see a really decent Soulknife build. If anyone has one, I'd love to see it, as it's kind of an interesting idea for a class.

Green Bean
2007-04-22, 04:14 PM
Psionics has always seemed balanced to me. Sure, there's potential for cheese, but a large part of its cheesey reputation is undeserved. Would you ban all kobold characters because you heard of pun-pun?

CockroachTeaParty
2007-04-22, 04:46 PM
Psionics is made of the finest, freshly imported win money can buy. Just use caution around Complete Psionic... You needn't search far in these forums to find the many things wrong with it. You're better off going 3rd party...

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-22, 04:57 PM
I also believe that Psionics make Melee-ers more viable. I''d take Psionic warrior or Soulknife over Fighter any day.

Yeah, about that. Psychic Warriors are very nice and all, and a solid examplesof well-balanced melee classes (though they could actually use a few more PP), but the Soulknife? Really, really bad.

Nahal
2007-04-22, 08:43 PM
I like psionics, again because I find they're more user-friendly than magic. The augmentation mechanic saves me a headache or two. Plus I love the 3.5 Constructor PrC, especially when combined with Overchannel and Talented (as far as I'm aware, it lets you get +1 or +2 to ML depending on your level, and you avoid the damage for what will wind up being your signature power).

BardicDuelist
2007-04-22, 10:56 PM
I do not see a problem at all with balance for psionics. I just don't like the fluff for my campaign world.

Oh and the Cast and Forget system is about as realistic as....Hit Points.:smallwink:

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-22, 11:07 PM
Um, what fluff? "People can do stuff with their minds, as well as with funny words and gestures"?

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-04-22, 11:41 PM
No love for the Soulknife? People, people...

Race: Human
Classes: Soulknife 10 / Incarnum Blade 5 (MoI) / Illumine Soul 5 (CompPsi)
Stats: 18STR , 12INT , 14WIS , 16DEX , 16CON , 10CHA
Mind Blade: 2 handed bastard sword
Feats:
Psionic Weapon (1st) Power Attack (Human)
Psionic Meditation (3rd)
Leap Attack (6th)
Practiced Mind Blade (9th , Dragon #341)
Mind Cleave (12th, CompPsi)
Raptor School (15th)
Greater Psionic Weapon (18th)

Sticking with Collision and Soulbreaker for weapon enhancements, possibly Vicious or Keen from time to time.

For Items, I am leaning towards Mind Blade Gauntlets, and Adamantine Mind Blade items from the Magic Item Compendium. There are some really nice items in that book that make it funnier to run with the Soulknife. The Incarnum Blade levels are in there for the bonus enhancements from the soulmelds , and Illumine Soul is just soulknife awesomeness.

TheOOB
2007-04-23, 12:18 AM
"Balance" Does not really exist in any identifyable form in D&D, 3.5 or otherwise. 3.5 psionics are not dreadfully overpowered like 3.0 psionics, they can still be abused, but a slightly optimized wizard, cleric, druid, and probally sorcerer can beat the vast majority of psionics in terms of pure power.

Psionics has no realy flavor inherient within it, the stock displays(which are easily supressed with a skill every psionic character has anyways) and the pointing crystal motief are weak attempts to slap a fluff identity to psionics which are otherwise just as bland as magic. It up to the individual psionic character to add the flavor.

I usually allow psionics in my game, I have the Expanded Psionics handbook, so I see no real reason not to. If you can find a way to fit wizards into your world, you can find a way to fit psionics, the fact is with magic transparency rules they are basically just sorcerers with a different spell list, the average person would see less of a difference between a wizard and a psion then between a wizard and a cleric. If played right psionics can be fun, and I do not have to worry as much about the psionic character taking over the game as I would a full spellcaster.

As a player I rarely play psionic characters, but thats mainly because a)I love wizards and thus usually play them and b)my DMs rarely allow psionics. When I do play a psionic character I usually end up being a telepath. I love playing the manipulative type, and the telepath handles this way better then an enchanter does, especially since its a pain in the rear to get enchanters to have decent social skills.

AmoDman
2007-04-23, 12:29 AM
I'll come along with you on Psychic Warrior, but I have yet to see a really decent Soulknife build. If anyone has one, I'd love to see it, as it's kind of an interesting idea for a class.

Build it towards Soulbow. That just kinda rocks.


especially since its a pain in the rear to get enchanters to have decent social skills.

Play a Beguiler.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-04-23, 12:35 AM
I love this forum. This far in and not one "omg its teh broken!"

Psionics are fine.

Baerdog7
2007-04-23, 12:37 AM
I'll come along with you on Psychic Warrior, but I have yet to see a really decent Soulknife build. If anyone has one, I'd love to see it, as it's kind of an interesting idea for a class.


Built it towards Soulbow. That just kinda rocks.

Soulknife/Pyrokineticist is another fun combo. They Pryo PrC gives the Soulknife just enough kick to make it competitive and, with the right feats, the ability to dish out a nice chunk of damage.

Besides, you weren't actually thinking about losing 10 manifester levels to take your psion through Pryo were you?

-Baerdog7

The_Snark
2007-04-23, 12:53 AM
Play a Beguiler.

I like beguilers, but I still give telepaths the edge, because when a beguiler casts a spell, everyone can tell. That can cause awkward questions, like, "Why did you cast a spell right before the commander agreed to release you from jail?" It's even worse if the guy makes his save.

Telepaths, on the other hand, can conceal their displays entirely, without increasing spell levels, and they get cooler mind-altering stuff anyway (Modify Memory and Mind Probe).

I rather like psionics; they tend to be more balanced than wizards. In part this is because they use the sorcerer mechanic- you can't know every halfway useful spell in the book like wizards can. In part it's because there are far fewer powers than spellcasters get- every new book includes new spells, up to the point where they have a compendium full of spells. And in part it's their endurance- to keep up, they have to keep burning power points. Even at high levels, the ones where the wizards and clerics never run out of spells anymore, they can't keep burning augmented powers; they might look just as good as the sorcerer for the first couple encounters, but they risk burning themselves out for the rest of the day if they do. That's the idea behind the Vancian system too, but at high levels it sorta stops working, and even at low levels the party decides to rest soon after the wizard runs out of spells.

Flavor-wise, they reshape reality with their mind... which is somehow different from wizards? The way I see it, they master a different sort of magic through sheer willpower rather than study. I rarely go with the whole crystal thing; I think in total, I've only had one psionic character who would know what you were talking about if you mentioned psionic talent. The others considered it magic of a sort, or didn't think about it at all.

AmoDman
2007-04-23, 01:32 AM
I like beguilers, but I still give telepaths the edge, because when a beguiler casts a spell, everyone can tell. That can cause awkward questions, like, "Why did you cast a spell right before the commander agreed to release you from jail?" It's even worse if the guy makes his save.

Telepaths, on the other hand, can conceal their displays entirely, without increasing spell levels, and they get cooler mind-altering stuff anyway (Modify Memory and Mind Probe).

Yeah, you know Eleberry Lockwidge? If that character were leveled he would be gaining the Metamagic School Focus feat to lessen Metamagic added spell levels by 1 three times a day for a chosen school you have the spell focus feat in. Beguilers get Still Spell and Silent Spell for free...just saying. Yeah, Telepaths have the edge in some respects, but Beguilers are also the Skillmonkeys and such (For Social Domination), thus their limited spell list.

jlousivy
2007-04-23, 01:36 AM
Psionics i love them.
90% of powers stay useful.
Take a 20th level wizard, does he really use his 1-2 level spells on a day-to-day basis?
20th level psion--yes, yes he does, and even if he doesn't he doesnt have points wasted because they were '1st power level only'

Flavor-- i see them fitting into a campaign just as well as sorcerers. that and i see it as another type of magic, ie: arcane, divine, psionic.

The_Snark
2007-04-23, 01:40 AM
Yeah, you know Eleberry Lockwidge? If that character were leveled he would be gaining the Metamagic School Focus feat to lessen Metamagic added spell levels by 1 three times a day for a chosen school you have the spell focus feat in. Beguilers get Still Spell and Silent Spell for free...just saying. Yeah, Telepaths have the edge in some respects, but Beguilers are also the Skillmonkeys and such (For Social Domination), thus their limited spell list.

Yeah, beguilers definitely get the edge in skills, and they get fun spells for messing with people, too. Illusions are one area in which psionics can't possibly compete (Only one power, False Sensory Input... which affects a very limited amount of people, and always gives a will save). For pure mind control, I happen to prefer telepaths, is all.

AmoDman
2007-04-23, 01:45 AM
Psionics i love them.
90% of powers stay useful.
Take a 20th level wizard, does he really use his 1-2 level spells on a day-to-day basis?
20th level psion--yes, yes he does, and even if he doesn't he doesnt have points wasted because they were '1st power level only'

This is true. All your points can be used for Bad-assery, it rocks :smallcool:. I actually haven't had the pleasure of playing a Psion yet, other than the Nomad I just made for a game on here...I like him so far. Fun times. Also, as geeky as it sounds...I like the obsessive quest of maxxing out my possible PP :smallwink:. INTELLIGENCE, PP, w00t! And, oh, yeah, DCs too...

AND PP!

Bottom line, if the Beguiler sidenote didn't illustrate it - balanced, and in my opinion, flavorful. I really like the feel of Psionics...saying it's "Just more magic" is the same as saying Arcane and Divine are pointless boundaries, or Fighters and Barbarians hardly appear different.

jlousivy
2007-04-23, 01:58 AM
oh and there's one thing psions have over spellcasters when playing the evil torturer guy.
Agitate Matter, besides the domination powers that cause the targets to hurt themselves, this is at the top of my list.

The_Snark
2007-04-23, 02:02 AM
Ah, yes, Death Urge. Nothing conveys arrogance like saying, "Fools! Did you really think you could possibly compare to me?" and watching your enemy stab himself. I always give it to arrogant characters/villains.

And yeah, I rather like the different feel to psionics too; very... mind flayer-y. It isn't all that different from magic anyway.

ghost_warlock
2007-04-23, 12:36 PM
For me, I've always thought of psionic flavor like this:

"Keep your absurd gestures and submissive prayers; I bend reality by mere thought alone!"

Build-wise, I usually stick with a straight psion and do somthing like this: Psionic Body, Focused Skil User, Expanded Knoweldge (x10). :smallbiggrin: If I feel like taking metapsionic feats (re: Quicken Power), I'll go for the psicrystal affinity+psionic meditation+ psicrystal containment path.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-23, 02:05 PM
Psionic villains are pretty awesome. Pyrokinetisist is a cool Prc for a serial killer and Psion Uncarnate is just awesome. Thrallherd is good for a villain too.

martyboy74
2007-04-23, 04:30 PM
Also, psionics are fairly easy to introduce in a campaign, as long as you can invent some freakishly powerful, evil, mind altering object. Just throw in a phthisic copy of your party.

Koga
2007-04-23, 05:17 PM
Psionics is what magic should've been. However, it's still broken compared to non-casters. Consider fighter vs psi-warrior.

Psiwarrior gains 20 powers and over 120 powerpoints.

Fighter gains 2 more feats, +1hp on average each level, full BaB.

Not worth it.


However The Koga has thought of a way to settle this matter. Non-casters gaining max HP each level, casters having to roll each level. (Including first)

Then the average bonus of fighter HP's is two toughness feats per level. It's still no psionics, but it's alot better.

Matthew
2007-04-23, 06:38 PM
I don't mind Psionics in in settings that support it (which is pretty much all published D&D Settings), but I don't really want it in my Fantasy any more than I want Magic in my Science Fiction. Two systems / types of magic is already too many, as far as I'm concerned.

Human Paragon 3
2007-04-23, 06:54 PM
What's your opinion on Wilders? They get very poor power selection compared to Psion, but the free augmentations look nice. Is the surge worth the 2/3 power cut?

The Glyphstone
2007-04-23, 06:59 PM
No. Not at all. Wilders get a ridiculous reduction in the number of powers known...and the free augmentation is only good until higher levels when you run a greater risk of frying your brains for a turn than getting that free boost...Overchannel is better.

martyboy74
2007-04-23, 07:34 PM
Hell, even the classes that are designed for wilders are easier to get into with psions.

ghost_warlock
2007-04-23, 10:39 PM
I don't mind Psionics in in settings that support it (which is pretty much all published D&D Settings), but I don't really want it in my Fantasy any more than I want Magic in my Science Fiction. Two systems / types of magic is already too many, as far as I'm concerned.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-Arthur C. Clark

"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
-Gregory Benford

:smallsmile:

BTW - I think I remember that DragonLance is (as written) a psionics-free setting.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-04-23, 10:46 PM
I subscribe to the fact that it's balanced and fun. In situations where psionics may not suit the world I like to just call it a different kind of magic.

Koga
2007-04-23, 11:13 PM
Wilders prove wotc hates charisma.

They suck so bad The Koga thinks they're balanced with non-casters.

Matthew
2007-04-24, 12:25 PM
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-Arthur C. Clark

"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
-Gregory Benford
Heh, yes indeed. Though, I don't really agree with Clark about that...


BTW - I think I remember that DragonLance is (as written) a psionics-free setting.
Yes, I wasn't too sure whether Dragonlance did or did not. I have a feeling it does, but I cannot think of any examples. I'm sure somebody more familiar with the setting will be able to say for sure.