What spells and feats should I pick up for a Gish, 3.5 official only

[Th3N3xtGuy]

My character is a Human Duskblade 4/ Sorcerer 3/ Abjurant Champion 5 Gish. I have never played a gish really and I don't know where to start. Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated.

Edit: Current Campaign no going back on previously selected classes. I'm also neutral evil.
Edit: Fixed the Sorcerer spells available due to misunderstanding.

I have 4 free feats

Access to 7 level 0 spells, 6 level spells 1, 1 level 2 spells FOR Duskblade

Access to 8 level 0 spells, 5 level 1 spells, 3 level 2 spells, 2 level 3 spells, 1 level 4 spells , FOR Sorcerer

Spells i'm stuck with

Mage Armor
Orb of Force
Invisibility
Bull Strength

[Xerlith]

First and foremost, Abjurant Champion requires +5 BAB meaning a Duskblade 3/Sorcerer3 does not qualify.

Second, no you don't have that many spells. You cast as a 3rd level Duskblade, meaning you get only 1st level Duskblade spells, and as a 8th level Sorcerer, meaning you get only 4th level spells.
And the numbers are also wrong, unless you gain spell knowledge from some sources you didn't mention.

Caster levels from different spellcasting classes do not stack and a prestige class progresses only one class' spellcasting.

Building a gish is more of an art than science, with the concept being as broad as they get. Assuming you want to channel touch spells through your weapon, so be a striker-type, I'd advise going Duskblade3/Sorcerer4/AbjChamp 5/Eldritch Knight for a quasi-standard build with 8th level spells and +18 BAB. Drawback is that you can't use metamagic on your channeled spells, because spontaneous casting chnages their time to full-round, making them incompatible with Duskblade's Arcane Channeling.

Tell us what you'd like to have and we'll work with it.

Worthwile things: Divine Companion Sorcerer ACF - trade familiar for healing/ac bonus.
Arcane Strike feat. You can burn spell slots for more damage, and a sorcerer has them to spare.
Power Attack. In conjunction with Wraithstrike, power attack is deadly.
Shocking Grasp/Vampiric Touch/Shivering Touch spells for low-level offense.
Wraithstrike, Bite of the Were[animal] line for offense.

A Warblade or Crusader dip (ToB) opens up either mobility or healing and staying power, depending on the class taken.

Following with Jade Phoenix Mage gives a great 8/10 spellcasting class that allows for blending magic and smacking people on the head.

Overall, while it's not strictly better, I'd actually advise a Wizard over a Sorcerer because Int gives that much. You lose spell slots, but that can be easily rectified (say, with the Elven Generalist Wizard, Pearls of Power, what have you) and you get a spell level a level earlier.

[Uncle Pine]

In addition to what Xerlith said, if you're Good aligned Arcane Preparation is an awesome feat because it lets you cast Sanctified spells like Greater Luminous Armor (a 1 hour/level buff that gives a +13* armor bonus to AC as well as causing opponents to take a -4 penalty on melee attacks against you).

*Actually a +8 bonus, but Greater Luminous Armor is an Abjuration spell and thus is boosted by Abjurant Armor.

[Xerlith]

In addition to what Xerlith said, if you're Good aligned Arcane Preparation is an awesome feat because it lets you cast Sanctified spells like Greater Luminous Armor (a 1 hour/level buff that gives a +13* armor bonus to AC as well as causing opponents to take a -4 penalty on melee attacks against you).

*Actually a +8 bonus, but Greater Luminous Armor is an Abjuration spell and thus is boosted by Abjurant Armor.

And that is also a reason you're better off taking Wizard actually. Shield+Greater Luminous Armor allow for a net gain of 9+13=22 Armor Class for the small, small cost of two Swift actions.

On top of that, remember about Blur/Displacement as far as defensive buffs go. Scratch that. Buy Shadow Hands (Novice) for a 3k GP that have the Child of Shadow stance inside. Now you gain a permanent 20% concealment as long as you move at least 10 feet. Which you will, because you have your Move action free to use.

[Uncle Pine]

And that is also a reason you're better off taking Wizard actually. Shield+Greater Luminous Armor allow for a net gain of 9+13=22 Armor Class for the small, small cost of two Swift actions.

On top of that, remember about Blur/Displacement as far as defensive buffs go.

And (Greater) Mirror Image. Especially remember that Greater Mirror Image is an immediate action to cast.

Also, have a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook). And another. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=cijgpuuhimvu9v5upd6bjibgo7&topic=8881)

[Th3N3xtGuy]

First and foremost, Abjurant Champion requires +5 BAB meaning a Duskblade 3/Sorcerer3 does not qualify.

Second, no you don't have that many spells. You cast as a 3rd level Duskblade, meaning you get only 1st level Duskblade spells, and as a 8th level Sorcerer, meaning you get only 4th level spells.
And the numbers are also wrong, unless you gain spell knowledge from some sources you didn't mention.

Caster levels from different spellcasting classes do not stack and a prestige class progresses only one class' spellcasting.

Building a gish is more of an art than science, with the concept being as broad as they get. Assuming you want to channel touch spells through your weapon, so be a striker-type, I'd advise going Duskblade3/Sorcerer4/AbjChamp 5/Eldritch Knight for a quasi-standard build with 8th level spells and +18 BAB. Drawback is that you can't use metamagic on your channeled spells, because spontaneous casting chnages their time to full-round, making them incompatible with Duskblade's Arcane Channeling.

Tell us what you'd like to have and we'll work with it.

Worthwile things: Divine Companion Sorcerer ACF - trade familiar for healing/ac bonus.
Arcane Strike feat. You can burn spell slots for more damage, and a sorcerer has them to spare.
Power Attack. In conjunction with Wraithstrike, power attack is deadly.
Shocking Grasp/Vampiric Touch/Shivering Touch spells for low-level offense.
Wraithstrike, Bite of the Were[animal] line for offense.

A Warblade or Crusader dip (ToB) opens up either mobility or healing and staying power, depending on the class taken.

Following with Jade Phoenix Mage gives a great 8/10 spellcasting class that allows for blending magic and smacking people on the head.

Overall, while it's not strictly better, I'd actually advise a Wizard over a Sorcerer because Int gives that much. You lose spell slots, but that can be easily rectified (say, with the Elven Generalist Wizard, Pearls of Power, what have you) and you get a spell level a level earlier.


I have 16 Intelligence so I get the +3 Modifier so I get bonus on Duskblade spells. Sorcerer I have 18 Charisma so I get bonus spells for +4 Modifier. Duskblade level 4=4 BAB not 3.

Martial Arcanist allows me to raise my spell caster level as if I was a 10th level sorcerer.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I have 16 Intelligence so I get the +3 Modifier so I get bonus on Duskblade spells. Sorcerer I have 18 Charisma so I get bonus spells for +4 Modifier. Duskblade level 4=4 BAB not 3.

Martial Arcanist allows me to raise my spell caster level as if I was a 10th level sorcerer.
Martial arcanist increases your caster level, not spells known or spells per day. It means your fireballs deal 10d6 damage, but you have spell slots as a sorcerer 8. That build can't cast 5th-level spells.

I'd suggest duskblade 4/wizard 2/abjurant champion 5/eldritch knight 9, if you want to be intelligence-based, have some channeling, and want high base attack. 19 base attack and 15th-level wizard casting.

On the other hand, you have paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/eldritch knight 8, if you want to be charisma-based, with great saves, and some more spells. 18 base attack and 17th-level sorcerer casting.

You can replace EK by various 3/4 base attack things, to get slightly less base attack (but still 4 attacks on a full attack), and spells of one level higher.

[Extra Anchovies]

Regarding your general concept: don't mix sorcerer and duskblade. They're different types of gishes and you don't want to fall behind on casting.

There are two general ways to go about mixing melee combat with spellcasting. The first is to buff yourself up (whether via polymorphs or via direct numerical buffs) and wreck some faces. The second is to channel spells through your attacks (with a spell storing weapon, a bloodstone weapon [spell storing for vampiric touch only; can be paired with generic spell storing], or the Duskblade's arcane channelling). For the former, I recommend Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, no multiclassing, no PrCs. You get a d12-equivalent HD (actually a d8+2, but it averages the same as a d12), average BAB, 1 less spell known and spell per day of each level (minimum 1 known, 0 per day), and an additional 1 less spell known of your highest level (minimum 1). For the latter, I'd recommend Duskblade 20 or Duskblade 13/Raumathari Battlemage 7.

[Xerlith]

I have 16 Intelligence so I get the +3 Modifier so I get bonus on Duskblade spells. Sorcerer I have 18 Charisma so I get bonus spells for +4 Modifier. Duskblade level 4=4 BAB not 3.

Martial Arcanist allows me to raise my spell caster level as if I was a 10th level sorcerer.

The ability score modifiers give you spells/day, not spells known - these are fixed by spellcasting (not Caster!) level for spontaneous spellcasters.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Do the duskblades know all their spells listed in the book?

[Uncle Pine]

Do the duskblades know all their spells listed in the book?

No:

Spell Known You begin play knowing two 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells, chosen from the duskblade spell list. You also know one additional 0-level spell for each point of Intelligence bonus.
Each time you gain a new class level, you learn one additional spell of any level you can cast, chosen from the duskblade spell list.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every subsequent odd-numbered level, you can choose to learn a new spell in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose access to the old spell in exchange for gaining the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. For instance, upon reaching 9th level, you could trade in a single 1st-level spell (two levels below the highest-level spell you can cast, which is 3rd) for a different 1st-level spell. You can swap only a single spell at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that you gain new spells known for the level.

You need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that spell level.
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[Th3N3xtGuy]

[QUOTE=Uncle Pine;19317454]No:

Can't seem to find where on PHB2 is the table that would tell me what they know.

[Uncle Pine]

Can't seem to find where on PHB2 is the table that would tell me what they know.

I'm AFB at the moment so I can't tell you the page number, but from the quote above I don't think there's a table at all:

Each time you gain a new class level, you learn one additional spell of any level you can cast, chosen from the duskblade spell list.
You simply get +1 spell known/level.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

So what i'm thinking is seeing if the DM will quietly let me drop the sorcerer and go 5 Duskblade/ 5 Abjurant Champ. then later 5 Ruamarathi Battlemage/ 5 Duskblade. Pick up Arcane Strike, Battlecaster and Improve Crit (Bastard Sword) and Dark Speech for evil flavor so me and a Vashar(player) can have private evil convos that strike fear into the weak.

[Extra Anchovies]

So what i'm thinking is seeing if the DM will quietly let me drop the sorcerer and go 5 Duskblade/ 5 Abjurant Champ. then later 5 Ruamarathi Battlemage/ 5 Duskblade. Pick up Arcane Strike, Battlecaster and Improve Crit (Bastard Sword) and Dark Speech for evil flavor so me and a Vashar(player) can have private evil convos that strike fear into the weak.

Abjurant Champion is useless for a Duskblade. They learn basically zero abjurations, and already have full BAB. I'd recommend sticking with Duskblade until you get full-attack channeling at 13, then going into Raumathari Battlemage for moar spell channelling.

[Mr Adventurer]

Isn't it possible to go into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil from Duskblade? I heard about that recently and it sounds totally boss.

[Pluto!]

It would suck to make that kind of feat investment and have both a d4/.5 BA skeleton and spells drawn exclusively from the Duskblade list.

Edit:
Actually Iot7V 7 stacks pretty elegantly on the natural Duskblade cutout level 13, getting level 4 spells just in time. Still, the 3 feats that don't do anything look painful.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Isn't it possible to go into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil from Duskblade? I heard about that recently and it sounds totally boss.
Duskblades hit 4th-level spells right at level 13, with full arcane channeling, and with 7 levels left - perfect for IotSV.

To qualify for IotSV, you need to be able to cast five abjuration spells, of which two of 4th level abjurations. You also need three feats and two (duskblade class) skills at rank 12, one at 4.

There are enough abjurations on the duskblade list. You can take lesser deflect, deflect, resist energy, dispelling touch, and then dispel magic. Not the best spell picks, and with the three feats needed for entry - all pretty much useless - you're basically setting resources on fire to get those tasty veils.

Only one of those spells you took is a 4th-level abjuration spell - dispel magic. Yes, duskblades get it one spell level higher, three levels after it hits the dispel check cap. You pick it up straight away at 13. Now you need another 4th-level abjuration. You can heighten something to 4th, that costs you one feat, or you can try to expand your spell list - trouble being that duskblades only get one spell known at each level. Heighten is the way to go, then, even if it's not the greatest feat.

Bottom line: you're spending 5/14 spells known (not counting cantrips), and 4/7 feats (not counting bonus feats), to get into IotSV. Up to you whether that's worth it.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

What about a Fighter 1/Warlock 6/ Hellfire Warlock 3/ Ruath Battlemage 10?

[Xerlith]

Warlock doesn't cast spells -> doesn't qualify for Raumathari Battlemage.

Have you even read the gish handbooks I linked you? Because it seems like you did not.

[Th3N3xtGuy]

Warlock doesn't cast spells -> doesn't qualify for Raumathari Battlemage.

Have you even read the gish handbooks I linked you? Because it seems like you did not.

Oh I did just thinking if warlock gish is a thing. Relax

[Xerlith]

There are two ways of building a warlock "Gish". Glaivelock, which uses the eldritch glaive invocation, and the Clawlock, who uses the feat found in dragon magazine to make themselves a magical Wolverine thingy

[fishyfishyfishy]

And that is also a reason you're better off taking Wizard actually. Shield+Greater Luminous Armor allow for a net gain of 9+13=22 Armor Class for the small, small cost of two Swift actions.

On top of that, remember about Blur/Displacement as far as defensive buffs go. Scratch that. Buy Shadow Hands (Novice) for a 3k GP that have the Child of Shadow stance inside. Now you gain a permanent 20% concealment as long as you move at least 10 feet. Which you will, because you have your Move action free to use.

I know this works by the rules but as a DM I would never allow this. Cloaked by shadows while glittering and glowing with holy armor that sheds bright light? Nah son.

[Xerlith]

I know this works by the rules but as a DM I would never allow this. Cloaked by shadows while glittering and glowing with holy armor that sheds bright light? Nah son.

Pray tell, why?
These are magical shadows. The fact, that the (very bright) light also obscures vision serves the same purpose, actually. Just that one is mechanically expressed by a -4 to hit in melee, the second one grants a 20% miss chance. Flavouring it that you find it easier to cloak yourself with shadows due to the fact that all the light shoots only outwards because of how you consume the part of the light with your shadows and leaves you, in the middle, a hazy and blured shape took me literally two seconds.

Are you, perchance, having a "fluff-as-written" moment? You do know that you could very well flavor that miss chance as light refracting in strange ways, or afterimages due to how you moved, or a ton of other ways?

If the flavor stands in the way of a mechanical ability, it's easier to change the flavor than deny the player very real, limited character resources.

The only instance where this could possibly help is the monk, who is flavoured as a master martial artist, and mechanically can't hit the broad side of a barn.

/snark

[fishyfishyfishy]

Yes, for flavor reasons. Shadow Hand is all about harnessing dark energy, and Child of Shadow comes right out and says that in the text that you're using this dark energy to hide yourself from your opponent. It's also a supernatural ability, and clearly magical. Since the Luminous Armor spells work like daylight spells I would house rule them to cancel any darkness granted by this stance. My reason for bringing this up is to point out how the fluff of these two abilities seemingly conflict, and you might find DMs unwilling to allow it. When giving advice to a person it's important to clarify how the rules work, and how it may be controversial. Just because the rules say you can technically heal damage by drowning doesn't mean that's how it's going to work at the table.

[Xerlith]

You're comparing a mechanical dysfunction - drown healing - to a perfectly well working set of abilities? :smallconfused:


When giving advice to a person it's important to clarify how the rules work
So be it.
Let's do the rules.

The stance is a Supernatural ability. The spell is, well... A spell. And let's see what that gives us.


Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled and are not subject to counterspells. Extrapolating from the fact that magical darkness can be dispelled by magical light spells, I assume your concern comes from the dispelling interaction. Now, the interaction doesn't exist in this case - ergo both abilities work. Regardless of each other.

Really, it would take a sadistic or completely clueless DM to actually enforce such a nitpick, because a nitpick it is.

If you are unable to let go of the ability's fluff, let's look at it from a different angle. "Shadowy energies" are, well, energies. Now why wouldn't they block out the magical light of the Luminous Armor, if they apparently block out any other light perfectly? They are not "shadows", they are "energy". Supernatural one, in fact.
As I said, it's enough to say that the Luminous armor emits the light only outwards and suddenly it makes MORE sense for the user to be better concealed behind a blinding light, due to how an eye's adaptation to bright light works.

Even better, one can take a flaw, grab Invisible Spell and laugh, laugh, laugh as his invisible Luminous Armor still imposes the -4 penalty...

[kellbyb]

Even better, one can take a flaw, grab Invisible Spell and laugh, laugh, laugh as his invisible Luminous Armor still imposes the -4 penalty...

This is where science comes into play. It's just infrared radiation now!