Is there any way to attack WITH your mount?

[skypse]

Hello giants! So, I'm going to join a campaign soon with some friends, where I wanted to play a Cavalier. I've never played a mounted class before so I'm not really knowledgeable with how mounted combat works. I've seen some feats etc, and I chose to take the Monstrous Mount and Monstrous Mount Mastery feats to take a Griffon and be able to fly. (The campaign starts at level 7 so it will be totally possible). However, I chose the Griffon because it has a very good potential damage with its pounce ability and 3 attacks so I wanted to check if there is any way that I can combine the Griffon's pounce, with the rider's attack. From what I know, you can direct your mount to charge on an enemy, and then the rider takes a full attack action, including any bonuses from charge (like the lance triple damage with spirited charge). What I am looking for, is if I can take the full attack as the rider, while my mount also uses its pounce ability and takes a full attack after the charge.
Also, I was thinking if I can combine a full attack with the ride-by attack. What I mean is: Let's say I have 3 attacks. 2 from BAB and 1 from haste. I direct my mount to charge creature A. I use ride by attack and use my 2 first attacks on creature A and kill it. I continue my charge action to the maximum of my movement which ends in front of creature B. Can I use my third attack? Can I divide them differently? If there are more creatures in the path, can I attack them too as long as I have remaining attacks for the round?


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[Eldaran]

This should cover your questions. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Mounted-Combat) But to elaborate a little, since your mount is charging, it definitely gets pounce, but you don't. Your question about ride-by attack is moot since you don't get a full attack.

[skypse]

Thanks for your reply. So if my mount charges, I can get an attack AND it gets its pounce???

[Psyren]

Thanks for your reply. So if my mount charges, I can get an attack AND it gets its pounce???

Correct. Most mounts don't have pounce so this is usually not a balance problem; the ones that do typically require additional investments up front (an animal companion or similar class feature, monstrous mount etc.)

[Heliomance]

Kishi Charger 6 (from Oriental Adventures) gets the ability to make a full attack while mounted even if your mount has moved. That's not Pathfinder, but you might be able to get it allowed.

[skypse]

Correct. Most mounts don't have pounce so this is usually not a balance problem; the ones that do typically require additional investments up front (an animal companion or similar class feature, monstrous mount etc.)

Well my character's concept is a Dwarf Cavalier with the Monstrous Mount and Monstrous Mount Mastery feats and a Griffon as I said in the OP. So with a Ride-by Attack, I get the pounce from my mount, plus the triple damage from the lance AND I get to continue moving as long as I have remaining speed? Does the Griffon need to get the Fly-by attack feat or not?

[skypse]

Kishi Charger 6 (from Oriental Adventures) gets the ability to make a full attack while mounted even if your mount has moved. That's not Pathfinder, but you might be able to get it allowed.

Doubt that... My DM is a bit "strict" regarding new Paizo stuff, let alone 3rd party material. He doesn't even let us pick anything from the ACG and the unchained. Not even feats :D

[Heliomance]

Doubt that... My DM is a bit "strict" regarding new Paizo stuff, let alone 3rd party material. He doesn't even let us pick anything from the ACG and the unchained. Not even feats :D

It's not 3rd party, it's official WotC content.

[Psyren]

Well my character's concept is a Dwarf Cavalier with the Monstrous Mount and Monstrous Mount Mastery feats and a Griffon as I said in the OP. So with a Ride-by Attack, I get the pounce from my mount, plus the triple damage from the lance AND I get to continue moving as long as I have remaining speed? Does the Griffon need to get the Fly-by attack feat or not?

I know your concept, I was speaking generally about why it's still balanced.

Yes - your mount would get to full attack, you would get one attack at triple, and then you would be able to keep moving without provoking from your target.


It's not 3rd party, it's official WotC content.

Psst... Pathfinder tag.

[skypse]

However, I don't see anywhere saying that the mount can also attack when it charges with a rider.

[Psyren]

However, I don't see anywhere saying that the mount can also attack when it charges with a rider.

A charge is defined as including the ability to attack.

"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action."

Therefore if your mount is charging - which it is, per the mounted combat rules - it is allowed to attack. It is not merely moving quickly - charge is a defined term in the game that consists of a double move and attack. And therefore, if your mount has pounce, it is able to full-attack; the rules are pretty clear. It also makes sense - cavalry train their horses to run up to someone and hoof-strike while they chop/stab downwards. And even if you rule that the mount's attack requires a separate prompt from you, thanks to your Cavalier's Link ability handling it is a free action.

The only muddy part of your sequence is the Ride-By-Attack - it allows YOU to attack and keep moving, but does not specify anything about your mount. SKR says (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l5b9?Mounts-with-attacks-and-the-RideByAttack-Feat#11) your mount needs Spring Attack for that part to work, so take that for what it's worth.

[AvatarVecna]

Alternatively, if you were attempting to find a way to wield your mount as a weapon (which is what popped into my head upon reading the thread title), there's a Barbarian Rage Power called "Body Bludgeon" that lets you use grappled/pinned creatures as weapons to damage both the creature you're attacking and the creature you're attacking that creature with.

[skypse]

Hahaha thanks for that but in order to use body bludgeon with my mount I will have to play something "evilish" and unfortunately I can't do that.

On another note, I was going through the rules and saw this:


Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

This line here counters the point of using the mount to charge so I can get triple damage with the Lance AND have the Griffon pounce with it. Which means that the mount cannot attack at all at the end of the charge since it can only use its actions to move.

[Urpriest]

Hahaha thanks for that but in order to use body bludgeon with my mount I will have to play something "evilish" and unfortunately I can't do that.

On another note, I was going through the rules and saw this:



This line here counters the point of using the mount to charge so I can get triple damage with the Lance AND have the Griffon pounce with it. Which means that the mount cannot attack at all at the end of the charge since it can only use its actions to move.

That's irrelevant. The rules also explicitly state that when the mount charges you get the full benefit of a charge. That sentence is just saying that you don't get to spend your own move actions to move because that's the mount's job.

[Psyren]

This line here counters the point of using the mount to charge so I can get triple damage with the Lance AND have the Griffon pounce with it. Which means that the mount cannot attack at all at the end of the charge since it can only use its actions to move.

Where does your rules quote say "only?" It seems to me that you are the one adding a limitation not found in the text. Charging entails movement, so there is no contradiction.

[skypse]

Well "only" isn't written anywhere but that's what I understand the text to mean...

[Ssalarn]

It's a moot point since you can't combine Pounce and Ride-by Attack. Ride-by Attack only allows the rider to attack in the middle of a charge's movement, not the mount. The mount's movement will end as soon as it attacks.

[Urpriest]

It's a moot point since you can't combine Pounce and Ride-by Attack. Ride-by Attack only allows the rider to attack in the middle of a charge's movement, not the mount. The mount's movement will end as soon as it attacks.

Why?

Remember, if you rule that Ride-By-Attack requires the rider to charge and not the mount, then it's impossible to use, period, since you can't use your own action to charge while mounted. The only way to charge while mounted is if your mount charges, and if your mount charges it has to make an attack, because it's not possible to charge without making an attack at the end. So the only way to use Ride-By-Attack as-written is for the mount to attack in the middle of the charge's movement along with the rider.

[Ssalarn]

Why?

Remember, if you rule that Ride-By-Attack requires the rider to charge and not the mount, then it's impossible to use, period, since you can't use your own action to charge while mounted. The only way to charge while mounted is if your mount charges, and if your mount charges it has to make an attack, because it's not possible to charge without making an attack at the end. So the only way to use Ride-By-Attack as-written is for the mount to attack in the middle of the charge's movement along with the rider.

When making a mounted charge, both the rider and mount are using the charge action. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ru6)

Your assertion that you have to attack on a charge is wrong:
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#charge)

Ride-by Attack only allows you, the rider, to make an attack in the middle of the movement. For the mount to use Pounce it would neither a specific ability of its own allowing it to Pounce and continue moving, or you could have the rider target one closer opponent, and have the mount attack a separate opponent at the far end of the charge.

[skypse]

If that is correct then the Griffon will never be able to use its pounce because Lance has a reach of 10 ft which means that the charge will end before the Griffon is in range.

[Ssalarn]

If that is correct then the Griffon will never be able to use its pounce because Lance has a reach of 10 ft which means that the charge will end before the Griffon is in range.

The rider hits the target first with his 10 foot reach, then Ride-By Attack allows the movement to continue. Griffon pounces 5 feet later and ends its movement to adjacent to the shares target of the charge. Ride-by Attack is actually the key component in combining Lance attacks with mount attacks.

[skypse]

So it is for sure that the mount can attack as well right? Because I am still a bit skeptical about it.

[Psyren]

So it is for sure that the mount can attack as well right? Because I am still a bit skeptical about it.

I'm compelled to ask why you even raised the question if you don't think your mount is charging too.

[skypse]

Well first, two people from my group claim that either the mount will attack or the rider. Never both because allegedly, a rider cannot attack when his mount attacks because he can't keep his balance.
Secondly, I just want to be sure that the mount can really attack because the writing is a bit cloudy in that part. The link that was provided by Ssalarn helps a bit because the FAQ says that they both follow all rules for the charge action which means that the Griffon SHOULD be able to attack.

[Psyren]

Well first, two people from my group claim that either the mount will attack or the rider. Never both because allegedly, a rider cannot attack when his mount attacks because he can't keep his balance.

Your friends appear to like inventing rules. :smalltongue:



Secondly, I just want to be sure that the mount can really attack because the writing is a bit cloudy in that part. The link that was provided by Ssalarn helps a bit because the FAQ says that they both follow all rules for the charge action which means that the Griffon SHOULD be able to attack.

The FAQ isn't saying anything the rules didn't, but if that helps you and your group, that's all that matters.

[Ssalarn]

Well first, two people from my group claim that either the mount will attack or the rider. Never both because allegedly, a rider cannot attack when his mount attacks because he can't keep his balance.


Respond with this:

Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/ride.html#ride)

DC 10 usage of the Ride skill that allows you to attack in the same round as your mount.