3.5 Kobold, My Daunting challenge

[TheBlueFox]

A dungeonmaster of mine is opening up to new material, and he's claimed that if I can prove it's source material, I'm most likely able to use it. Immediately I jumped on the idea of a kobold rogue, but the more I look at it the tougher it is to make it work.

The strength penalty alone limits my options, going into melee to get tripped or rooted is not going to be fun, so I've decided on going ranged. Bows come with inherent strength requirements, as penalties in strength become penalties to damage, so I'm going to use Crossbows.

Here's the challenge for me, I've never really gone in depth about crossbows, so of course there are a few things I don't understand. But regardless i'm here asking for assistance from more worldly players.

Overview:
Here's the gist of what I'm dealing with. I'm in a low magic environment, which means the addition of abilities and spells to assist in either reloading or getting more attacks out of a crossbow is unlikely, as a result I do not want to build toward them, for example skipping out on Rapid Reload in favor of self loading crossbows or items that give me extra free action hands. Now that doesn't mean NO magic, just that things are going to be kept somewhat simple.

We're starting low level, but I want to plan for the future so I'm not lost.

I will not be allowed to take flaws.

I will not be able to take dragonwrought kobold, but I will be able to take some benefits and allowed to take the "Kobold Rogue" variant and other substitution abilities, this is mostly to keep from kobold racial feat abuse. He wants me to be a kobold, not a very small elder dragon.


Goal:
Knowing this, I want to be an asset to the team, I don't want to be a liability. I understand I will not be able to top the charts in damage dealt, and perhaps as a kobold I don't want to be perceived as a threat until it's too late, but I do want to feel like I'm contributing. So I need Decent (not jaw dropping) damage, and utility for things I can't utilize my crossbow against.

To take advantage of the Kobold's abilities I'm going to be heavily skilling Hide+Move silent, as well as Craft(Trap), but I may need some advice on how to utilize crafting traps, since a turn is 6 seconds of time, and I'm not going to be able to dig a spiked pit that fast. Creative uses for simple cheap items like caltrops or ball bearings and smoke bombs would be helpful.

Weapon choices are where things get really confusing to me. There are so many different types of crossbows, and some of them require heavy investments just to make decent. For example, the Double Crossbow allures me. But the wording on it's abilities cripples it. If I can convince my DM that the wording on the Double Crossbow (W/Exotic Proficiency: Double Crossbow) allows it to be used like rapid shot (+1 attack per volley at highest BAB, All shots during volley take -2) instead of JUST 2 shots, would it be worth it? If not, is hand crossbow the way to go?


TL;DR:
Please help me construct a low magic environment Crossbow Kobold Rogue.

[HaikenEdge]

Trapsmith and Combat Trapsmith prestige classes seem up your ally, when you can get into them, if you want to be trap heavy. You may want to look into the Stage Hand build from the optimization circus (http://community.wizards.com/comment/20763536#comment-20763536); even if you're not using Factotum and won't get the Font of Inspiration shenanigans, Fade into Violence and Shadow Striker can still be helpful for you.

You may also want to look into the Web (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060127a) Enhancements (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) WotC put out with regards to Kobolds. You may also want to look into the Underfoot Combat feat, which may let you move through squares occupied by Medium or larger creatures without provoking, depending on GM ruling, which may be helpful in planting traps and such.

[TheBlueFox]

The combat trapsmith is something that interested me, but I was still debating whether or not the DCs and effects would be potent enough to use. It's only 5 levels and still adds a ton of synergy regardless, so I was likely to take it anyway, but I'll have to see if the trapsmiths traps can actually be worth the trouble it is to set them up.

As for factotum, I've never seen it before, I'll have to take a look at what this offers, but it could be interesting

[HaikenEdge]

Factotums are basically rogues on steroids. When built correctly, they basically add their intelligence modifier to everything of note that they do.

[Extra Anchovies]

Factotums are basically rogues on steroids. When built correctly, they basically add their intelligence modifier to everything of note that they do.

It's worth noting that they have less native combat ability, especially if your DM bans Iaijutsu Focus. I still have no idea how to make a single-classed factotum at all useful in a fight beyond UMDing wands.

[HaikenEdge]

It's worth noting that they have less native combat ability, especially if your DM bans Iaijutsu Focus. I still have no idea how to make a single-classed factotum at all useful in a fight beyond UMDing wands.

Knowledge Devotion and Cunning Insight work well together, due to being different bonus types, and never specifying weapon damage, meaning, can work with ability damage, so it synergizes with Disemboweling Strike or a high DC poison.

[TheBlueFox]

Holy bajesus, I just glanced at Factotum and I'm overwhelmed. EVERY skill is a class skill if I read that right? They get sneak attack AND spellcasting? Limited of course but still better than nothing. I'll have to take an evening to really look this over and get the handle of it, but for the sake of simplicity with something already foreign, I'm leaning more toward the rogue, at least I've had years to get accustomed to it.

Not to say Factotum doesn't interest me, I just don't know if it fits a Kobold. Factotums seem almost...worldly as opposed to Trickster miners and ambush trappers.

[HaikenEdge]

Holy bajesus, I just glanced at Factotum and I'm overwhelmed. EVERY skill is a class skill if I read that right? They get sneak attack AND spellcasting? Limited of course but still better than nothing. I'll have to take an evening to really look this over and get the handle of it, but for the sake of simplicity with something already foreign, I'm leaning more toward the rogue, at least I've had years to get accustomed to it.

Not to say Factotum doesn't interest me, I just don't know if it fits a Kobold. Factotums seem almost...worldly as opposed to Trickster miners and ambush trappers.

I always kind of saw the Factotum as the guy who couldn't really fit into any one apprenticeship, so he kept bouncing around, and that's how he knows how to do so many things, albeit not as well as somebody specialized in doing that thing. Of course, with enough Inspiration (which recharges every encounter), a Factotum can be as good as a fighter or a rogue in a burst of resource expenditure, which the Factotum regains most, if not all of, by the time the next encounter comes up.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Beware: Factotum was very poorly written. Curmudgeon has fixes for a lot of the mistakes they made; my personal favorite is Cunning Surge giving you a standard action while costing a standard action to activate.

[Ellowryn]

Crossbow Sniper from PHB2 lets you add your dex to damage with crossbows and doubles the length at which you can make sneak attacks. As for which crossbow, i would recommend a light one as you can (with little investment) make iterative attacks with it.

I would also recommend looking at the scout class from Complete Adventurer. It focuses on high mobility and stealth, while making high damage single shots on the run.

[TheBlueFox]

Crossbow Sniper from PHB2 lets you add your dex to damage with crossbows and doubles the length at which you can make sneak attacks. As for which crossbow, i would recommend a light one as you can (with little investment) make iterative attacks with it.

I would also recommend looking at the scout class from Complete Adventurer. It focuses on high mobility and stealth, while making high damage single shots on the run.

Skirmish is an interesting ability that would no doubt help my little kobold's survivability. Keeping mobile is nice and it rewards me for it, it also gets me through difficult terrain and even adds movement speed. Very tempting. I'll certainly keep this class in mind.

Crossbow Sniper is almost a given, it's probably mandatory on crossbow users. I probably need rapid reload as well, and I think I need Point Blank shot as a feat tax to access them.

The crossbows im looking at are Hand Crossbow for it's various feats, Double Crossbow because it's stylish (But apparently worded so terribly it's probably the worst of them all) and Some kind of Repeater.

[Nihilarian]

If you're going Scout, I'm going to recommend a Swift Hunter build. It's a multi class Ranger/Scout feat from Complete Scoundrel that let's you use Skirmish against your favored enemies, even if they're usually immune.

If you're going rogue, you want to use a Hand Crossbow.

[TheBlueFox]

Im curious why the hand crossbow would be beneficial for the rogue. Sure the 30' distance could be taken into effect but with crossbow sniper that doesn't really make much of a difference. Does the hand crossbow have some synergy with the rogue?

[Nihilarian]

Im curious why the hand crossbow would be beneficial for the rogue. Sure the 30' distance could be taken into effect but with crossbow sniper that doesn't really make much of a difference. Does the hand crossbow have some synergy with the rogue?You have automatic proficiency, they're relatively easy to dual wield, and you don't really care about base damage because all of your damage is coming from your class.

Hand Crossbow Focus is pretty cool too. Notably, Crossbow Sniper requires Weapon Focus and HCF counts.

[TheBlueFox]

Oh wow, Hand crossbow focus is Crossbow focus AND Rapid reload in one feat. Yeah, that pretty much clinches it. A feat advantage with style. I like it. Looks like I'll be getting PBS, HCF, then Crossbow sniper as my first 3 feats. Rogue into Combat Trapsmith, I like it.

The only problem is if I'm going rogue, I might as well go Kobold rogue... but that D4 hit die is gonna suuuuuck.

If I'm not mistaken, you take an armor class penalty to your attacks if you use a shield that you are not proficient with, but masterwork bucklers are pretty inexpensive, and they have no AC penalty, right? So I could strap a masterwork buckler with no proficiency for pretty much free onto my kobolds arm. A little goes a long way when you've got less than 10 hp hehe

[BladeofObliviom]

If your DM will let you and it doesn't ruin your character concept, you may consider using the Desert Kobold variant from Unearthed Arcana. It trades the con penalty of the standard Kobold for a wisdom penalty that hurts a lot less, removes light sensitivity, and trades out the bonus to Profession (Mining) for a somewhat more broadly useful bonus to Survival.

Aside from that though, there's not much else about a Kobold rogue in particular that needs to be worked around. If you're looking for more about making a rogue effective there's a Rogue handbook around GitP somewhere, but I don't have the link handy.

[TheBlueFox]

Hmm interesting things to think about. The light sensitivity could be a nuisance so I might look into that. This should get me through my first 5 levels or so, which is great. By then I'll either be dead or hopefully know how to continue building the character.

Still, are there some creative ways to use Traps made from Combat Trapsmith? I believe Craft(Alchemy) is necessary for them, but would I be better off with Craft(poison) ?

[Urpriest]

Hmm interesting things to think about. The light sensitivity could be a nuisance so I might look into that. This should get me through my first 5 levels or so, which is great. By then I'll either be dead or hopefully know how to continue building the character.

Still, are there some creative ways to use Traps made from Combat Trapsmith? I believe Craft(Alchemy) is necessary for them, but would I be better off with Craft(poison) ?

IIRC Craft(Alchemy) can substitute for Craft(Poison) in a pinch.

[Segev]

There is, I believe, a web supplement that is official which gives Kobolds a racial trait called "slight," or something similar. It makes them, essentially, Tiny when it's advantageous to be so, and Small otherwise. (Much like Powerful Build does with Large and Medium for half-giants.) This could be very useful to a rogue.

[TheBlueFox]

Oh it certainly is, its why I start off with a +8 to hide from just BEING a kobold (+4 per size smaller than medium, Small creature + Sleight build = Tiny creature when hiding) as well as squeezing into tight areas and other nifty things. I think a Light Pick is going to be my backup weapon and a folding shovel is going to be in my pack at all times.

I can see myself running away from people and scurrying into a little hidey hole, and as they chase me their weight triggers pitfall traps I've left behind while I squirm through tunnels to safety.

"Whats that? You guys wanna take a rest in this dungeon? Okay, give me just an hour and I'll turn this place into a minefield, then you won't have to worry about getting ambushed while we rest."

[WeaselGuy]

Just from reading through this, I would definitely suggest trying to get a double hand crossbow scout into play. The skirmish is arguably easier to trigger than sneak attack, and between hand crossbow focus and crossbow sniper, you can both up your damage and save on feats. Which brings me to my next point: Swift Hunter.

It's a feat for Scout/Ranger (from Complete Scoundrel) which lets you stack your scout and ranger levels for determining both favored enemy bonuses and scout skirmish damage. My advice? Go Rogue 1, 4 levels of Scout, then 15 levels of Ranger. Feats look like the following. Take the two-weapon fighting combat style from Ranger.

1 Craven
3 Hand Crossbow Focus
5 (Scout Bonus Feat) Point Blank Shot
6 Swift Hunter
7 (Ranger Bonus Feat) Two-Weapon Fighting
9 Crossbow Sniper
11 (Ranger Bonus Feat) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Improved Skirmish
15 Precise Shot
17 (Ranger Bonus Feat) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18 Improved Precise Shot

I would also use the Kobold Ranger Substitution levels at at least 4 to get a Dire Weasel for your animal companion. They are awesome. Check out my avatar :smallcool:
Oh, also, pick favored enemies that are normally immune to precision damage, since Swift Hunter explicitly circumvents that immunity.

[Urpriest]

Just from reading through this, I would definitely suggest trying to get a double hand crossbow scout into play. The skirmish is arguably easier to trigger than sneak attack, and between hand crossbow focus and crossbow sniper, you can both up your damage and save on feats. Which brings me to my next point: Swift Hunter.

It's a feat for Scout/Ranger (from Complete Scoundrel) which lets you stack your scout and ranger levels for determining both favored enemy bonuses and scout skirmish damage. My advice? Go Rogue 1, 4 levels of Scout, then 15 levels of Ranger. Feats look like the following. Take the two-weapon fighting combat style from Ranger.

1 Craven
3 Hand Crossbow Focus
5 (Scout Bonus Feat) Point Blank Shot
6 Swift Hunter
7 (Ranger Bonus Feat) Two-Weapon Fighting
9 Crossbow Sniper
11 (Ranger Bonus Feat) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Improved Skirmish
15 Precise Shot
17 (Ranger Bonus Feat) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18 Improved Precise Shot

I would also use the Kobold Ranger Substitution levels at at least 4 to get a Dire Weasel for your animal companion. They are awesome. Check out my avatar :smallcool:
Oh, also, pick favored enemies that are normally immune to precision damage, since Swift Hunter explicitly circumvents that immunity.

How is that build triggering Skirmish though? With no Travel Devotion, it's got no way to move and full attack.

It will probably be easier to focus on Sneak Attack, if you can get a good source of Hide in Plain Sight or Invisibility.

[WeaselGuy]

How is that build triggering Skirmish though? With no Travel Devotion, it's got no way to move and full attack.

It will probably be easier to focus on Sneak Attack, if you can get a good source of Hide in Plain Sight or Invisibility.

*cough* Ur-Priest's sig rings true again. Uh... SLT Barb at level 1, shift everything else to the right by a level? Ok, so, in my haste, this didn't turn out very well, and now it's just getting more inelegant as I go. I'll come back to this with something better.


The idea was still cool...

[Sian]

instead of debating if Skirmish or Sneak Attack, why not go Swift Ambusher and gain both? :smalltongue:

[Brookshw]

Just stopping in to say that while skimming thread titles I at first misread this as "Kobold, My Dating Challenge".

[jiriku]

Just stopping in to say that while skimming thread titles I at first misread this as "Kobold, My Dating Challenge".

"The date was going really slow, until we got to talking about reptiles and minerology!"

[Urpriest]

*cough* Ur-Priest's sig rings true again. Uh... SLT Barb at level 1, shift everything else to the right by a level? Ok, so, in my haste, this didn't turn out very well, and now it's just getting more inelegant as I go. I'll come back to this with something better.


The idea was still cool...

SLT Barb is great for a melee build, but I think the focus here is on range. Can't charge with your crossbows after all.

[Ferronach]

To combat light sensitivity, you can pick up sun dark goggles for 10gp from one of the underdark(?) books.
But I second going for a variant Kobold.

[TheBlueFox]

Hey... Kobolds are kinda cute

Anyways, Swift ambusher. The Scout/Rogue multiclass... This is interesting, but I only wonder how tough it would be to get ranged sneak attacks without hiding first. And being hidden, moving 10 feet and still being hidden seems tough to do, because there is no way i'm going to enter melee as a kobold. With an 8 strength and low hp I'm going to be tripped or locked down and murdered.

Its tempting though, I like the idea of still getting precision damage even if I can't hide first, not only that with travel devotion I won't have too much of a problem getting full attacks off later. Scout also gets extra feats, which would obviously be used for improved skirmish and Craven. Mmm....

Regardless Im gonna start level 1 as a rogue for the massive boost to skill points, I might hit rogue 2 for evasion ASAP, but then... Scout... Hmmm...

This is a tough decision really

[jiriku]

I had good luck with a gnome melee combatant once, using a combination of rogue/whilrling frenzy barbarian. With Battle Jump, Craven, a valorous weapon and rhino hide armor, I would set up to charge into a flanking position, then deal triple damage with piles of bonus dice. Strength was irrelevant, and because I was dancing in and out of melee rather than trying to go toe-to-toe with the enemy, my exposure to enemy attacks was low. Of course, that character did eventually get grappled and killed, so I feel you when you say you're worried about it.

[WeaselGuy]

SLT Barb is great for a melee build, but I think the focus here is on range. Can't charge with your crossbows after all.

There's a feat for that in Drow of the Underdark... one of the combat schools. Ok, I actually looked it up, it's Xaniqos School, requires Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot and Shot on the Run, plus BAB +6, and basically gives you +1d6 to your crossbow damage while moving at least 10 feet towards your enemy. Also, reloading doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

I'm not giving up on this! There's got to be a way to trigger skirmish while twfing with dual hand crossbows. I want to make the Demon Hunter from Diablo 3!

Except on a kobold.

[Demidos]

Sundark Goggles, Races of the Dragon.
Theres an item in a web enchancement, basically roller skates, that allow you to 10ft step. However, with the change in archives, it is hard to find...


You could also consider throwing (self crafted) acid with a potion belt, that always sounded cool.

[TheBlueFox]

Okay, think on that for a moment. Dodge, mobility, PBS, Hand Crossbow focus, Shot on the run, Travel devotion, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Xaniqos school.

Thats 10 feats minimum, I don't know if that can be done! You'd have to definitely cut down on something... Thats the one reason why I never liked shot on the run and spring attack, so very feat intensive

I think I can manage PBS, HCF, Crossbow Sniper, Precise shot, Craven, Imp Skirmish, Travel Devotion and others. Maybe not in that order, I'll have to determine what I need when I need it

[WeaselGuy]

Okay, think on that for a moment. Dodge, mobility, PBS, Hand Crossbow focus, Shot on the run, Travel devotion, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Xaniqos school.

Thats 10 feats minimum, I don't know if that can be done! You'd have to definitely cut down on something... Thats the one reason why I never liked shot on the run and spring attack, so very feat intensive

I think I can manage PBS, HCF, Crossbow Sniper, Precise shot, Craven, Imp Skirmish, Travel Devotion and others. Maybe not in that order, I'll have to determine what I need when I need it

Yeah, I know it has to be trimmed down, that's what I'm saying though, there has to be a way to make it work lol.

[Ferronach]

Sundark Goggles, Races of the Dragon.

There we go! Something about saying Underdark didn't feel right there hahaha
oh the sadness of being away from books :(

[Nihilarian]

My own favorite Swift Hunter uses Wildshape to get pounce, so not really applicable. Your best bet is a cleric dip; you can trade out a domain for a devotion feat (in this case, Travel Devotion).

[Brookshw]

"The date was going really slow, until we got to talking about reptiles and minerology!"

We get along great but the brood mates hate me. What should I do?

[TheBlueFox]

So it seems I'm gonna go Rogue 2 (or 3 for 2d6 sneak dice) then about 5 levels of scout (5 for 2d6 skirmish, redundant evasion though) then the rest rogue probably, until I take MAYBE 1 level dip of cleric for travel devotion at some time. That gives me 1 extra feat from scout, 2d6 skirmish damage, and some other abilities, but keeps the rogue skills high like UMD and disable device

[Sian]

anyhows ... if you're set on Kobold Rogue, but aren't completely married to actually being ranged, I'd suggest looking at This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18613497&postcount=50) character that i won a Junkyard Wars with

Able to fairly consistently stay hidden even when charging, with a boatload of attacks with up towards +7d6 sneak attack + 5d6 skirmish, proving well and truely that Strength is not needed for melee combat

[TheBlueFox]

I'm not well versed in the scout, so please forgive me for not understanding, but how is that character's skirmish progression continuing without taking scout levels?

Does the swift ambusher feat allow that? I thought it adds skirmish dice to SA dice for the purposes of qualifying for special feats. Otherwise, that build looks REALLY interesting

[TheBlueFox]

Oh dear lord that's exactly what it does, I was misinformed. My god, that feat is necessary and would let me only need 4 levels of Scout! Fantastic! No redundant evasion needed! Oh my... This is interesting... This really tempts me toward a melee Kobold now... Even without a weapon I'd get Claw Claw Bite (Tail with feat).

I'm not really sure I understand Natural weapons to the extent I should, but if I'm correct, your PRIMARY natural weapons, regardless of how many you have, get the same attack bonus, any secondary weapons are at -5 unless you have multiattack?

So if I had a +5 attack bonus with claws, I'd get +5/+5/+0 (claw claw bite?)

The good part about natural attacks is I get as many as I have things to attack with right from the start, the bad part is I don't get MORE attacks from TWF or a high BAB, right?

oh my god, two incredible choices. A little half-pint ripper, or a speedy scout ambusher...

I knew this wasn't going to be easy.

Either way I forgot about ACF Disruptive attack, so I'm blitzing Rogue 4 before any multiclasses

[Urpriest]

Oh dear lord that's exactly what it does, I was misinformed. My god, that feat is necessary and would let me only need 4 levels of Scout! Fantastic! No redundant evasion needed! Oh my... This is interesting... This really tempts me toward a melee Kobold now... Even without a weapon I'd get Claw Claw Bite (Tail with feat).

I'm not really sure I understand Natural weapons to the extent I should, but if I'm correct, your PRIMARY natural weapons, regardless of how many you have, get the same attack bonus, any secondary weapons are at -5 unless you have multiattack?

So if I had a +5 attack bonus with claws, I'd get +5/+5/+0 (claw claw bite?)

The good part about natural attacks is I get as many as I have things to attack with right from the start, the bad part is I don't get MORE attacks from TWF or a high BAB, right?

oh my god, two incredible choices. A little half-pint ripper, or a speedy scout ambusher...

I knew this wasn't going to be easy.

Either way I forgot about ACF Disruptive attack, so I'm blitzing Rogue 4 before any multiclasses

Your understanding of natural attacks is correct. If you also use a manufactured weapon (or an unarmed strike), then all of your natural attacks become secondary, and you still get full iteratives with the manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike).

[TheBlueFox]

How can I use a dagger AND a claw? Aren't they the same appendage? I could understand a Wrist Razor and a claw, but I'm not about to go dropping weapons in melee. Though I suppose I could add a Bite attack to any attack chain

[Urpriest]

How can I use a dagger AND a claw? Aren't they the same appendage? I could understand a Wrist Razor and a claw, but I'm not about to go dropping weapons in melee. Though I suppose I could add a Bite attack to any attack chain

Yeah, you can't use the same appendage for two different things. That's why the best option in this sort of situation is usually Unarmed Strike, since you can use any appendage to make one, including those that don't have natural weapons on them like your feet. Second best are weapons that take up a natural weapon but don't take up a hand, like Mouthpick weapons.

[TheBlueFox]

Okay, now this soulmeld and Chakra thing that I see. I'm not really well versed in that regard of the totemist so I could use just a bit of explanation or overview.

From what I can tell, opening your chakra in an area allows you to bind something to it, a soulmeld or an item, and I assume the totemist class grants you said soulmelds. If you're binding something to your hands, as is assumed by the choice of hands in the feat, are you binding an item to your hands? What does this accomplish, I'm not certain I know what meldshaping does.

I'm gonna take a guess, turns your hands into the hands of something else? Like... Dragon claws, or umber hulk pincers?