Good Artificer gestalt classes

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

So I will be finally starting a new campaign which we will be playing gestalt characters. I will be playing an artificer and looking for a second class for it. after looking on other forums, the most common are wizard and warlocks. wizard for there spells and warlocks for there Deceive item ability. what else make these classes great for artificers gestalts and what other classes are out the that would work well with artificers. all books are allowed.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Artificer is a class that does most of its powerful stuff out of combat: crafting items, infusing items, breaking WBL. In combat, they mostly use magic items, wands, staves etc. to emulate spellcasting. There are tons of magic items, so you have tons of options - you can make it work with any class. A class that can make good use of magic items is a good candidate for gestalting with an artificer.

You can go for intelligence synergy - factotum, wizard, psion, erudite, warblade, rogue, even duskblade. How about taking rogue and wizard into unseen seer (with a mindbender dip)? You'd be a tinkering spellcasting undetectable spy.

[lonewulf]

I say Factotum simply because Factotum is so fun (and synergises pretty well with Artificer). All those skills....mmmmm....

[Brova]

I say Factotum simply because Factotum is so fun (and synergises pretty well with Artificer). All those skills....mmmmm....

No. As people have pointed out, the Artificer is (especially at low levels) a non-combat class. That leaves Factotum to pick up the combat slack, which it cannot do in normal D&D, let alone a higher powered field like Gestalt. The Gestalt killer app for Factotum is to pair it with a martial adept, because then you can launder your standard actions into manuevers. IMO it's better than Factotum || Caster in most games just because you don't actually worry about resources at all - everything comes back every encounter, assuming you fix Factotum.

Anyway, the Artificer is going to be a lot of work, especially on the logistics side of things. As such you probably want to pick a class that is simple to build and (hopefully) simple to play. You could do worse than Beguiler/Mindbender/Rainbow Servant or Idiot Crusader. I would not pick a Warlock for the simple reason that Warlocks are not actually very good. Wizard is a possibility, but will make the build exponentially more complex. The simplest answer is just "pick a build that is awesome, staple it to Artificer, win" - but there are a lot of builds that are awesome. One question that springs to mind is what kind of Artificer you want to be. Minions? Try some Dread Necromancer. Blasting? Um, maybe Rogue? Melee? Idiot Crusader FTW.

[Nihilarian]

I'd go for Warblade. Of course, there isn't a class that won't gestalt well with Artificer, so it's basically just down to preference.

[lonewulf]

@Brova: You make excellent points. But not every character needs to be great at combat, even in Gestalt. Factotum is not a great combat class but nor is it a bad one. Factotums are versatile and crafty players can adapt to most situations.

Now, having said all that, if the op wants to be stellar at combat then obviously Factotum is not a good choice. But (unless i skipped over a sentence) the op didnt specify combat/non-combat.

[Brova]

@Brova: You make excellent points. But not every character needs to be great at combat, even in Gestalt. Factotum is not a great combat class but nor is it a bad one. Factotums are versatile and crafty players can adapt to most situations.

I disagree. Not everyone needs to be Batman or an Ubercharger, but D&D combat is simply too long at to frequent for sitting it out to be a valid choice. Factotum does not do things that matter, especially at low levels, especially if you already have trapfinding (which the Artificer does). Stapling the fourth best skill monkey onto the second best skill monkey is a bad choice no matter how you slice it (for reference, it goes Beguiler > Artificer (simplicity of play, better at low levels) > Rogue (arguable, depends on how much you value late game power) > Factotum (just not good enough)). Again, the reason Factotum is good in gestalt is action abuse, but Artificer doesn't give the chasis for that.

[lonewulf]

I disagree. Not everyone needs to be Batman or an Ubercharger, but D&D combat is simply too long at to frequent for sitting it out to be a valid choice. Factotum does not do things that matter, especially at low levels, especially if you already have trapfinding (which the Artificer does). Stapling the fourth best skill monkey onto the second best skill monkey is a bad choice no matter how you slice it (for reference, it goes Beguiler > Artificer (simplicity of play, better at low levels) > Rogue (arguable, depends on how much you value late game power) > Factotum (just not good enough)). Again, the reason Factotum is good in gestalt is action abuse, but Artificer doesn't give the chasis for that.

Again, good points, but i repectfully disagree on your 'harsh' view of Factotums combat ability. They, in no way, have to "sit out" combat encounters. Especially if you are allowed Iajutsu Focus (it is a skill and you have all skills) and a Gnomish Quick-Razor. Plus a (limited but) great list of spells as SLA's. And if you really need an extra punch to your damage you can get what amounts to sneak attack damage.

Also, using Factotum action economy abuse for Artificers UMD abuse? One of the things that make Artificers so great? And you get to do it MORE? Is that not a thing? Because im pretty sure it is.

But as I said...being overly amazing at combat isnt needed for every character...but an Artificer/Factotum CAN be amazing. Does it HAVE to be amazing? Of course not. Just being fun is often good enough.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Artificer is a very powerful support class. Its abilities can work with literally any other class', and it's almost entirely self-contained. Sure, it doesn't mind a good Int (for bonus infusions) and Cha (for UMD), but it doesn't really need much Int-- certainly no more than most classes like for skill points. It has feats it would like, but it gets plenty of bonus feats. So really, whatever you'd like would be just fine.


(for reference, it goes Beguiler > Artificer (simplicity of play, better at low levels) > Rogue (arguable, depends on how much you value late game power) > Factotum (just not good enough)).
Did... did you just propose Artificer for simplicity of play? Because that's kind of the opposite of... everything, really. And while it's not the best at damage-dealing, Factotum is fantastic at skills-- between the massive number of skill points, the "make relevant checks with rarely used skills"-ness of Cunning Knowledge, and the significant boost from Brains Over Brawn, they do skills very well. I'd also put forward a Bardic Knack Bard as a viable skillmonkey, trapfinding aside. But anyway.

[Brova]

Again, good points, but i repectfully disagree on your 'harsh' view of Factotums combat ability. They, in no way, have to "sit out" combat encounters. Especially if you are allowed Iajutsu Focus (it is a skill and you have all skills) and a Gnomish Quick-Razor. Plus a (limited but) great list of spells as SLA's. And if you really need an extra punch to your damage you can get what amounts to sneak attack damage.

Iajutsu Focus + a pile of Quick Razors is inferior to simply being a Flask Rogue. Especially because said Flask Rogue can also use Iajutsu focus (though it's a bit more of an investment).


Also, using Factotum action economy abuse for Artificers UMD abuse? One of the things that make Artificers so great? And you get to do it MORE? Is that not a thing? Because im pretty sure it is.

The only Artificer build that really needs a pile of standard actions is the one that takes a wand of damage and pumps it up with metamagic. If your plan is to buff up your party with persist abuse, use a horde of minions to kill everything, or wade into melee with crazy buffs yourself there are better options.


Did... did you just propose Artificer for simplicity of play? Because that's kind of the opposite of... everything, really.

I realize now that was much less clear than I thought. For some reason I but the reason the class above is better next to the class it's better than. So Beguiler is supposed to be better than Artificer because it is easy to play.


And while it's not the best at damage-dealing, Factotum is fantastic at skills-- between the massive number of skill points, the "make relevant checks with rarely used skills"-ness of Cunning Knowledge, and the significant boost from Brains Over Brawn, they do skills very well.

The Factotum is good at skills sure, but the marginally value of that degree of "good at skills" is simply not very large when compared to the Rogue's sneak attack, the Artificer's breaking the entire game, or the Beguiler's spells.


I'd also put forward a Bardic Knack Bard as a viable skillmonkey, trapfinding aside. But anyway.

I think trapfinding is the basic requirement to be a skill monkey. If you don't have that, I don't think you get to be a skill monkey. All the other things are basically interchangeable (though you want Diplomacy or Abuse Magic Device and preferably both).

[chaos_redefined]

So, first off... those rankings of skill monkeys seem... weird. And all kinds of wrong. I could believe the other way around (Factotum > Rogue > Artificer > Beguiler) more easily. Beguiler has int focus, but has to take concentration and probably spellcraft. He gets no class features related to spells, except some select spells (such as invisibility) as spells known. Factotum has int focus, and several class features related to skills. He also gets access to invisibility, as well as Alter Self and any other spells on the wizard list that help out skill monkeys. I question why you think Factotums make poor skill monkeys. And why you think Artificers are "simplistic".

Second, you want an active side and a passive side in gestalt, preferably with little stat concerns. Artificer is a passive side, reliant on intelligence. Warblade and wizard are active sides, both of which use intelligence. Factotum is a passive side, also reliant on intelligence. The int synergy is good, but the lack of active is bad.

An Artificer // Wizard will be a regular wizard who will attain a Blessed Book faster, will have a higher level of headband of intellect, and will have some metamagic rods to spare.

An Artificer // Warblade will be a warblade with a better weapon, better armor, and better... well, equipment in general.

[Ellowryn]

I know Warlock has already been suggested, but don't forget about Hellfire Warlock and its tasty Hellfire Infusion ability (Binder dip recommended, or some other way to reduce/repair Con damage). Again, its not the most powerful combo but you get consistent, free damage and a host of free utility abilities that you don't have to spend money/time on.

[Brova]

So, first off... those rankings of skill monkeys seem... weird. And all kinds of wrong. I could believe the other way around (Factotum > Rogue > Artificer > Beguiler) more easily.

Well I should note that the ranking isn't "how good of a skill monkey is this class" but "how good are the classes that can do the job of skill monkey." It's true that the Factotum has a bunch more skills than other classes, but that doesn't really stack up to the Rogue's massive piles of sneak attack, the Artificer's gamebreaking crafting abilities, or the Beguiler's having spells which kill a whole bunch of fools.


Beguiler has int focus, but has to take concentration and probably spellcraft. He gets no class features related to spells, except some select spells (such as invisibility) as spells known.

As a Beguiler you have somewhere between 16 (Gnome, rolled poorly) and 20 Int (not a Gnome, rolled well). That works out to 9 to 11 skill points per level. The core competency skills for a skill monkey are search and disable device, because they let you find traps and disarm them. Add the "spellcaster tax" skills (spellcraft, concentration, maybe knowledge (arcana)), social skills for charm (bluff, sense motive, diplomacy), abuse magic device because it is the best skill, and you can fit all that in as a Gnome with 16 Int, although it makes qualifying for Shadowcraft Mage a little bit rough.


Factotum has int focus, and several class features related to skills. He also gets access to invisibility, as well as Alter Self and any other spells on the wizard list that help out skill monkeys. I question why you think Factotums make poor skill monkeys.

It's not that they make poor skill monkeys, it's that it's just not a very good class. Barring shenanigans (i.e. taking that web enhancement feat from one campaign setting you aren't in and that 3.0 skill from another campaign setting you aren't in) it just can't do a whole lot. It's very good at being a skill monkey, but that is at best a small fraction of the things you will be asked to do in most campaigns.


And why you think Artificers are "simplistic".

As I've said before, that's just my writing being super unclear. The simplicity is supposed to be a comment on Beguilers, not Artificers.

[defiantdan]

I don't get how sneak attack is really that important. At low levels it's mostly just icing. At high levels it's irrelevant and at mid it's unreliable. A fist full of d6's that are easily avoided by most any creature. The "best" way to match up the artificer is to grab psion. Craft a bundle of psionic arrows, you know have 250pp as free action to fuel some juicy psionic powers. Plus the psionic artificer variant is largerly considered superior with how djores and power stones work.

Factotum is great simply because he has access to spells. Even before he has access to action abuse he has access to things like alter self, polymorph, grease, glitterdust...ect. sure it's not often but the polymorph line doesn't need often to wreck faces. To boot he can access sneak attack and when it becomes a burden he no longer access that useless feature.

In a low op setting grab factotum//artificer and just have fun with the class. high op, go psion/thrallherder//artificer and laugh.

[Tvtyrant]

The other side should be a Mystic Ranger 10/Chameleon 10. Grants you full BaB at low and mid levels, full casting at low levels, floating feat to get you the obscure crafting feats, and a wide array of helpful abilities. Also can net you wildshape if you want it.

You might also go Mystic Ranger 10/Contemplative 1/Chameleon 9//Artificer 20, because Contemplative will let you pull off Divine Metamagic abuse on your 6 levels of divine spells for free daily self buffs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Artificer is a passive side, reliant on intelligence. Warblade and wizard are active sides, both of which use intelligence.
But he doesn't, is the thing. It only affects Infusion DC-- easily ignored if you don't pick ones with save DCs, which a quick glance suggests is "most of them" and presumably Infusions/day, which is less important since most of your infusions are long-duration buffs. You can put anything on the other side of Artificer, take feats and abilities (almost) entirely for that and still get a powerful character.

[Taveena]

Artificer can be awfully active - especially as a blastificer. I'd lean towards Factotum if you're interested in wand blasting.
However Warblade with White Raven plus an Artificer's horde of constructs makes for a TERRIFYING melee/hordeficer that needs surprisingly little investment to function. Also, D12 HD and full BAB.

An Incarnate//Artificer can get some absolutely /insane/ UMD checks with Mage's Spectacles while further bolstering the skillmonkey role. NG Incarnate works best if Artificer covers your offensive side. Chaotic for ranged artificers, Lawful or Evil for melee artificers. A Warforged Totemist//Artificer could self-buff then melee for ludicrous damage.

Binder gives you some more versatility, as if you didn't have enough of that already. Still, it's got less redundancy than you might expect with Artificer.